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Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert  
User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1536 times:

A panel investigating Israel's war in Lebanon last year has accused the country's wartime leaders of "very severe failures" in their handling of the conflict in an interim report.
The Winograd commission, appointed by Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, found he did not have a "well-processed plan" when he launched the campaign against Hezbollah.
The commission on Monday criticised what it called Olmert's "severe failure in judgment, responsibility and caution" in going to war last July.
Olmert admitted "mistakes were made" but said he had "no intention of resigning".
The report capped a six-month investigation into the conflict, which has been widely perceived as a failure by the Israeli public

Alex!!!


Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1520 times:

Eitan Cabel, is the first Israeli cabinet minister to resign over the report.Cabel, said on Tuesday: "Ehud Olmert Israel's prime minister must resign


Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1517 times:

Quoting Cedars747 (Thread starter):
The Winograd commission, appointed by Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, found he did not have a "well-processed plan" when he launched the campaign against Hezbollah.

Looks almost as if the commission included some a.net members who wondered if the attack was a sensible idea.


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1511 times:

Quoting Cedars747 (Thread starter):
The Winograd commission, appointed by Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, found he did not have a "well-processed plan" when he launched the campaign against Hezbollah.

Your country is under rocket attack, your citizens are dying, and you are supposed to sit back an formulate a plan. Now that's leadership!


User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1511 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
Looks almost as if the commission included some a.net members who wondered if the attack was a sensible idea.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
Nice one Baroque ! Anyways ,what made a country like Israel with more than 50 years of experience in wars and fully support of a super power commit such mistake ?


Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1504 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
Your country is under rocket attack, your citizens are dying, and you are supposed to sit back an formulate a plan.

In a word, yes. You don't (or shouldn't) start killing people, and getting your own people killed, unless you have formulated clear and achievable objectives. Otherwise it's just senseless slaughter - which is exactly how the invasion of Lebanon turned out.

In any case, the rockets started AFTER Israel attacked Lebanon. The 'casus belli' was the capture of two Israeli soldiers in a patrol action, not rockets.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1501 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
Your country is under rocket attack

A very good response by :

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
In any case, the rockets started AFTER Israel attacked Lebanon

Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1501 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
Your country is under rocket attack, your citizens are dying, and you are supposed to sit back an formulate a plan. Now that's leadership!

to be under attack can NEVER be an excuse for a lack of thinking, and the urgency of action can never justify brainless commands. Most of the losses of human lifes and heavy damage in Haifa would have been avoidable by sensible strategies and realistic assessments.
-


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1492 times:

NAV20, hardly, first Hiz started shelling then attack IDF in Israel.
This is the sign of a democratic state, if you fail you resign, not stay in power like Baathist fcuk ups.


User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1483 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 8):
This is the sign of a democratic state, if you fail you resign, not stay in power like Baathist fcuk ups.

That's true !

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 8):
NAV20, hardly, first Hiz started shelling then attack IDF in Israel.

That's not true

Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1478 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 8):
This is the sign of a democratic state, if you fail you resign, not stay in power like Baathist fcuk ups.

Someone better tell Olmert that!

"Olmert, who heads the centrist Kadima party, said he would not resign, insisting he was the best man to put things right.

"It would not be right to quit and I have no intention of doing so," Olmert told Israelis in a concise televised address, hours after the nation watched former Supreme Court judge Eliyahu Winograd read out sharp criticism of his actions."


http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/...port/2007/05/01/1177788138624.html



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1473 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Olmert, who heads the centrist Kadima party, said he would not resign, insisting he was the best man to put things right.

Haha ! but I think he will resign at the end.

Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1464 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
In any case, the rockets started AFTER Israel attacked Lebanon. The 'casus belli' was the capture of two Israeli soldiers in a patrol action, not rockets.

Sure about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

[b]The conflict began after Hezbollah fired Katyusha rockets and mortars at Israeli border villages, diverting attention from another Hezbollah unit that crossed the border, kidnapping two Israeli soldiers and killing three others.[b]

http://www.historyguy.com/israel-lebanon_war_2006.html

[b]In Lebanon, this war is known as the "July War," while many Israelis call it the "Second Lebanon War."

Hezbollah launched "Operation True Promise" at 9:05 AM, on July 12, 2006. The operation began with a diversionary attack of rockets and mortar shells fired at Israeli settlements and military posts near the Israel-Lebanon border. Hezbollah troops then entered Israel, attacked two armored Israeli Humvees, patrolling the border village of Zar'it, with rocket propelled grenades, killing three soldiers and capturing two others. The Hezbollah force then retreated back into Lebanon with their captives, later identified as Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev.
[b]

And before you respond, soldiers are citizens.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1456 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
Your country is under rocket attack, your citizens are dying, and you are supposed to sit back an formulate a plan. Now that's leadership!

Nope. . . you initiate action on the plan that you've had for months, perhaps some tweaking, but initiate the action on the plan.

Remember members here pissing and moaning because ISRAEL HAD A PLAN several months before the war? NOW you know why such a plan is necessary.

Damn, I hate it when I'm right.

And while I'm here:" Cedars747, I'd really like a link to this "REPORT" so we can verify the accuracy of your posts. I wouldn't presume to call you a liar, I have in fact heard of this report; but I don't have any qualms wondering if you haven't perhaps twisted a detail or so for your own agenda. Besides, reading the report in proper context is always preferable to the bleeps and blurbs copied and pasted into a web post.


User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1440 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
And while I'm here:" Cedars747, I'd really like a link to this "REPORT" so we can verify the accuracy of your posts. I wouldn't presume to call you a liar, I have in fact heard of this report; but I don't have any qualms wondering if you haven't perhaps twisted a detail or so for your own agenda. Besides, reading the report in proper context is always preferable to the bleeps and blurbs copied and pasted into a web post.

I know you hate me ! I am sorry for that but I cant change my personality and bellieves just to please you and others.

Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
In any case, the rockets started AFTER Israel attacked Lebanon. The 'casus belli' was the capture of two Israeli soldiers in a patrol action, not rockets.

Not correct as stated above. Let's not start creating myths like the 'Jenin Massacre'.

But anyways, the reports look damning enough to force his resignation.


User currently offlineORFflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1431 times:

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 14):
I know you hate me !

He didn't say that.

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 14):
I am sorry for that but I cant change my personality and bellieves just to please you and others

He didn't request that.

What he did request:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
Cedars747, I'd really like a link to this "REPORT" so we can verify the accuracy of your posts

Pretty elementary.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1424 times:

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 14):
I know you hate me

I don't hate you, I don't even know you . . . .

I simply would like a link to the report . . . .

Both to satisfy the curiosity of the members here - and to comply with the Rules of the Forums (#8 specifically). Otherwise, everything you say can be construed as simple opinion. As I said, I have heard such a report exists, but the onus is on YOU to provide said link in YOUR thread.


User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1423 times:

This report is made by Israelis from the perspective of Israel. The most it does is to confirm that Israel lost the war contrary to all those saying Israel had accomplish the weakening or destruction of Hezbollah (yeah right, as if we needed to know that). I would only be satisfied when those (both military and politicians) be brought to justice over the war crimes committed during the war; NOTE: Capturing a soldier does not equal a war crime, cluster bombing of civilians does.
And what compensation is being paid to the victims?

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 14):
I know you hate me ! I am sorry for that but I cant change my personality and bellieves just to please you and others.

Alex!!!

About ANC, I have always been confused, I wouldn't go as far as to say he 'hates' someone (he may as well do) but when it comes to this topic, he is extremely biased. Just mention a certain Israeli PM on a thread with a topic that does not includes his name and post is deleted being 'off topic'.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
twisted a detail or so for your own agenda.

What agenda? The Hezbollah agenda or the Hamas agenda?

Either way as far as I am concerned, this report as is good as it would have been had it never surfaced. I am more concerned about the killers that walk/lie on bed, free in that region.


User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1421 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Both to satisfy the curiosity of the members here - and to comply with the Rules of the Forums (#8 specifically). Otherwise, everything you say can be construed as simple opinion. As I said, I have heard such a report exists, but the onus is on YOU to provide said link in YOUR thread.

Feel free to delete

Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1416 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 15):
Let's not start creating myths like the 'Jenin Massacre'.

Oh wait! So Jenin was a party?


User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1411 times:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
Sure about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Is...flict



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 15):
Not correct as stated above.

Source; Wikipedia..... Nuff said


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1408 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 20):
Oh wait! So Jenin was a party?

The "Jenin Massacre", which I'm sure many A.netters were up in arms about a few years back, turned out to be almost completely false.


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1403 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 21):
Source; Wikipedia..... Nuff said

That would be why I included a second seperate source.  sigh  But that's ok, just ignore it.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1395 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 21):
Source; Wikipedia..... Nuff said

Source, UN. Good enough for you?

The crisis started when, around 9 a.m. local time, Hizbollah launched several rockets from Lebanese territory across the withdrawal line (the so-called Blue Line) towards Israel Defense Forces (IDF) positions near the coast and in the area of the Israeli town of Zarit. In parallel, Hizbollah fighters crossed the Blue Line into Israel and attacked an IDF patrol.

http://domino.un.org/unispal.NSF/fd8...8/87e2508779d8ec83852571b6004c761f

Notice that it is a UN report.

As for Jenin, here is the report from Human Right Watch.

"Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp. "

http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-01.htm#P49_1774

Now, here you have plenty of ammunition to criticize the actions of the Israeli government last year, backed by Israel itself, but you go off in tangents with false allegations. Why?


25 Post contains images Cedars747 : Hello Jawad ! and thanks for your reply Back to the topic: what made a country like Israel with more than 50 years of experience in wars and fully su
26 AndesSMF : Olmert is completely blasted for not thinking and not paying attention to what others were saying should happen.
27 Post contains links Joni : Here's an article on the run-up to the conflict: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1839244,00.html
28 RJpieces : What made the United States, a country with way more than 50 years of experience in fighting wars and a superpower on a scale much larger than Israel
29 NAV20 : Seems to square with the first incident being nothing more than a 'patrol action.' Those are common in border areas whenever there are territorial di
30 RJdxer : There has been a heated debate on the internet about whether the two Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hizbullah that day were captured in Israel or in L
31 ANCFlyer : Cedars, I'm still waiting on the source of your thread starter. Nothing personal, nothing biased, simply part of the game you have to play if you post
32 Post contains links AndesSMF : What about me giving you sources? Debkafile has plenty (supposed to have Israeli intelligence sources) http://www.debka.com Jerusalem Post gives sever
33 Post contains links AeroWesty : For a source all one has to do is google Winograd Commission, and voila, the sixth link down on the first page is a summary by the Israel Ministry of
34 Emirates773ER : So even when the Israelis admit themselves that the war was a lost cause you basically turn a blind eye and force yourself to live in delusion. Sad.
35 AndesSMF : Unless you admit here, as proven by me in reply #24, that you were also deluded, you have no right to make that comment.
36 Post contains images NAV20 : Oh dear, RJdxer, REALLY! Did the media only show the 9/11 shots once? Not to mention 'Mission Accomplished'?
37 Post contains links AndesSMF : Did they manipulate pictures to show something that did not exist? http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/newswir...p?vnu_content_id=1002951326&&imw=Y
38 Post contains images Springbok747 : Ah another oppurtunity to bash Israel...yay Not true. Also it wasn't Israel who started the war, it started when those two soldiers were kidnapped by
39 Emirates773ER : What are you talking about? I have not even made a single comments in this thread as yet. At least try to see who ur responding to beforing posting u
40 AndesSMF : Read my replies to others in #24. If these beliefs did not apply to you, I apologize in advance. If they did, then my reply #35 applies.
41 Emirates773ER : Seriously, even after there own government inquiry bashes them u have sympathy? Some things just go beyond me.
42 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : possible, but if so, they at his party first have to determine his successor, whose business will be to succeed against "re-born" Mr Netanyahu, whose
43 Post contains images NAV20 : Me too, Emirates773ER. Apart from anything else, it was a WAR - a couple of thousand people got killed, and I'm sure that more people - especially ki
44 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : we had THIS already last year. As became apparent, many people do NOT care about this for a micro-second and only blame Hizbullah for the mess.
45 Kay : Yep the report looks like it listened well to all that we have been saying on these forums (I remember at least 5 posts by me not a few days within th
46 RJdxer : Had the Israelis won the media battle, which they were doomed to lose from the start, there would have not been any commission just as there was no c
47 ME AVN FAN : don't exaggerate. The Israeli commission did not look into "war crimes" but checked up strategic and political mistakes done. Again, it was/is an int
48 Post contains links RJdxer : The evidence is quite clear. Yes I do, and they have been accused of such by their own members. Reuters even apologized for carrying doctored photos
49 ME AVN FAN : That indeed is true. Amazing that even Reuters has gone to the sensation-mongers ! But I would NOT declare that to have been the general thing. Even
50 ME AVN FAN : BUT, to go back a step, the propaganda-victory of Hizbullah had its roots in the fact that they managed to attack Haifa increasingly almost throughou
51 Kay : I'm sure there is alot of media who did their best in showing the destruction of Hizbullah's missiles over and over again, maximizing the impact of t
52 LTBEWR : I appears that with this interim report that at least in Israel, the people can crititize their government and punish their leaders over a very conter
53 RJpieces : Lebanon as a nation was destroyed? Are you out of your mind? Israel's damage was miniscule compared to...Oh remember the Syrian-PLO attack on Damour?
54 Post contains links Cedars747 : Waw ! You have an excellent view about this issue,one of the best in Airliners.net,wellcome to my RU BRAVO LTBEWR Breaking news from Jerusalem : Isra
55 Post contains links Baroque : Not to mention the fact that, as they say, it was in all the papers. Also it was on every TV station in Aus. Perhaps it was kept secret in certain pa
56 1stfl94 : Why is the death of a Christian more offensive than that of a Muslim?? Ultimately Israel came out the bigger loser of last summer's conflict. Hezboll
57 Post contains images Cedars747 : Haha ! amazing Baroque ! Alex!!!
58 Kay : The Hizbullah political protests are concentrated around the parliamentary building. Despite that, leisure life is back in Lebanon: the main nightlif
59 ME AVN FAN : Syria is NOT preparing for whatever war. The protest-actions by the anti-government coalition including Hizbullah is a minor disturbance. That Hizbul
60 Kay : The situation in the region is explosive, let it not be mistaken. But at least this summer, and that was my original comment, there will not be Israel
61 1stfl94 : Well the Israeli tourist industry has been suffering over the last few years...
62 Cedars747 : Very true ! Alex!!!
63 TheCol : It was obvious from the get-go that the Israeli politicians totally screwed up strategically. I was in the region during the conflict, and there seeme
64 Joni : The rest of the article puts the material you quoted into perspective.
65 RJpieces : And Ariel Sharon wrote about seeing the buzzing nightlife and restaurants when he travelled secretly to Beirut during the Civil War...Doesn't mean th
66 ME AVN FAN : Wrong sequence ! the tourists do NOT go to Lebanon because the country is thriving, the country becomes thriving because the tourists came back ! The
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