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Meaningful Discussion About The Middle East  
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1713 times:

I was actually thinking about the back and forth actions of the Arabs/Palestinians and Israelis in the middle east. When you look at it, you really get to see how it's not just one side doing all of the bad acts. In fact, both the Arabs/Palestinians and the Israeli's have both done their shair of misdeeds, some of them horrendous.

For example people probably remember the time when Arafat's men killed the entire Israeli Olympic Team which sparked a worldwide outrage, and we remember how in 1948 when Israel got it's land, how none of the Arab countries would take the Palestinians in. We also know about Israeli's in 1982 allowing phalangists (christians) to go into areas where palestinians were held prisoner, and turned the lights on to help guide them to their targets. Thousands of arabs were killed in the process.

A major problem I've actually seen, but have had trouble articulating properly is the fact that while the arabic atrocities are widely publicised and mentioned, but there is almost no discussion on the bad-acts in which Israel was in the wrong. The reason seems to largely because a lot of Jewish people believe that any criticism of Israel itself, is considered anti-semitic, which prompts a lot of negative name-calling and accusations that results in the discussion being brought to a screaching halt, with no serious discussion ever occuring. The fact that criticizing a nation is not racist does not ever seem to be relevant to the issue-- that accusation simply stops it cold.

There was actually a house bill or a senate bill which sought to make not only anti-semitic statements, but even the criticism of Israel, a hate crime punishable by jail-time. Not only is this obviously against the first-amendment right to free-speach, it also, on the same note is illogical (You can criticize America with impunity, but can't criticize a country the size of New Jersey virtually on the other side of the planet in which we are not even citizens of)

The question I propose is this. How can a meaningfull discussion of the middle-east occur if you are not allowed to discuss the misdeeds, and bad-acts of all parties involved?
Since it is obvious that neither side are without blemish and have both committed their share of acts that could be considered atrocities, it is obviously is not practical to only blame one side, and hold the other to be purely innocent. In fact, it would be considered unjust. To discuss actions in the middle east practically and justly, the bad acts of both sides must be discussed. From 1948 to the present date...

Since I know some people will jump on me for saying this, just as many jumped on Jimmy Carter when he published his book, I wish to state that I do *not* have any sympathy for the Arabs, nor do I have any sympathy for Israel. I am not apologizing for the misdeeds of the Arabs, and I am not apologizing for Israel's misdeeds.

In my honest opinion, true peace in the middle east will not occur until both sides take responsibility for their individual actions, and until both sides demonstrate remorse for their misdeeds: This is something I do not think will come easy-- The people in the middle east in particular seem to have this attitude that apologizing or admitting you're wrong makes you weak. Some may agree and others may disagree as to this view, but do you honestly think peace will come between two parties when neither one will admit that that they are wrong or have screwed up and instead, they just blame the other offending party for all of their actions.


Andrea Kent
(Should I mysteriously vanish you know who's to blame for it)

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAC773 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1709 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
(Should I mysteriously vanish you know who's to blame for it)

God?



Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1691 times:

I don't think there is a God, could be wrong though!

However I would like to hear your opinions about what I wrote

Andrea Kent


User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1682 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
(Should I mysteriously vanish you know who's to blame for it)

Andrea, dont take this personally, you know I enjoy debationg with you on chat, but....

get rid of this disclaimer. its fucking retarded. You live in the United States, you wont disapear for saying stuff that isnt even that inflammatory on an internet forum. stop all this is stupid bullshit. I thought the last time you posted this kind of stuff your little brother had hijacked your a.net account for awhile? lies, im guessing?

like i said, just some advice, dont take it personally.....

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
There was actually a house bill or a senate bill which sought to make not only anti-semitic statements, but even the criticism of Israel, a hate crime punishable by jail-time.

proof?


Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineDsa From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1673 times:

I think the reason the mid-deeds are'nt mentioned is because they're leaders are so volatile in negotiations, one word out of line and a side would walk out. This would basically be a step back, I think the best way for progress in the Middle East is to look forward and be positive for negotiations and other issues. If you keep bringing the past up, the same arguments will be argued for generations of leaders to come.

The best way forward for the Middle East is peace, forward thinking, innovation and diplomacy. Us in the West need to start treating Middle East leaders with respect and understanding, our leaders tend to be patronising and dictator-like towards Middle East leaders.

DSA


User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1667 times:

Quoting Dsa (Reply 4):
The best way forward for the Middle East is peace, forward thinking, innovation and diplomacy.

No kidding.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1649 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
A major problem I've actually seen, but have had trouble articulating properly is the fact that while the arabic atrocities are widely publicised and mentioned, but there is almost no discussion on the bad-acts in which Israel was in the wrong. The reason seems to largely because a lot of Jewish people believe that any criticism of Israel itself, is considered anti-semitic,

The reason is because the Jews control the media.  wink   duck 

Here's some quick reasons, be they stereotypes, right or wrong, factual or opinion, why I think Israel gets support
-Israel gets a lot of support because they are a democracy, and there aren't many of those in the region.
-The Jews haven't exactly been blowing up our buildings and assests in the US and around the world. Arabs have. (Stereotype, yes I know but its one shared by many)
-Holocaust guilt (Mostly personal opinion)
-The Arab nations sneak attacks on Israel in 1948, 1967, and 1973 (and Israel kicking ass in the process).

Though I will say it seemed like the media was more biased towards Lebannon and Hamas last summer during that fiasco.


Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 3):
get rid of this disclaimer. its fucking retarded. You live in the United States, you wont disapear for saying stuff that isnt even that inflammatory on an internet forum.

 rotfl 
This alone is enough to convince me that most of these conspiracy theories are false, it's that the ones who continually say "If I disappear or vanish for this, you know what happened" and no one ever does. If the government really did have something to hide, don't you think we'd see people like Andrea down in G'itmo on the news more often when we see news footage from their?


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4919 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
the entire Israeli Olympic Team

The entire team was it?

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
any criticism of Israel itself, is considered anti-semitic

This is known as the chewbacca defense and has served Israel well over the year.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 6):
Israel gets a lot of support because they are a democracy, and there aren't many of those in the region

The Palestinian Territories have had elections, Lebanon is democratic and Iran is partially democratic. Problem is that much as democratic Israel is supported no democratics regimes like Jordan and Saudi Arabia still receieve a huge amount of support.


User currently offlineCharlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1133 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

Quoting Dsa (Reply 4):
The best way forward for the Middle East is peace, forward thinking, innovation and diplomacy. Us in the West need to start treating Middle East leaders with respect and understanding,

And they in turn need to stop blowing people up...or at least sponsoring it.


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1592 times:

FlyDeltaJets87,

Actually, you know Israel pre-emptively attacked Egypt in 1967 and took the west bank, and among other things, Jerusalem.

I don't know if "Holocaust Guilt" is exactly the correct word for it. It would appear as if the Israelis seem to use the holocaust as a crutch (I think that's the word) -- an excuse to justify virtually everything they do.

I was kind of suprized as well about the media bias toward Lebanon as well. Although Israel did effectively bomb them off the map.


YOWza,

Chewbacca defense?


Andrea Kent


User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1557 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10):
Actually, you know Israel pre-emptively attacked Egypt in 1967 and took the west bank, and among other things, Jerusalem.

Technically true but it would have been awfully stupid to wait until Egypt was ready to attack on their terms. Israel was certainly not the aggressor.



Where are all of my respected members going?
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1471 times:

What's a Chewbacca defense? Does that mean you make a lot of noise like Chewbacca the Wookie and scare your opponent into silence?

Andrea Kent


User currently offlineJFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1420 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1467 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10):
Actually, you know Israel pre-emptively attacked Egypt in 1967 and took the west bank, and among other things, Jerusalem.

The Isarelis actually took back Jerusalem which was taken by the Jordanians in 48. When the Israelis did take it back they discovered that many of the holy areas inluding the western wall were desecrated.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
What's a Chewbacca defense?

Ask Kyle and Stan....Maybe Cartman will help but I make no promises.


User currently offlineDsa From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1438 times:

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 9):
And they in turn need to stop blowing people up...or at least sponsoring it.

People need to understand that this is the minority of people, the majority of people in the Middle East want peace and prosperity and I wish them that. Islam is the not the only religion to have extremists

DSA


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

JFK,

I got what you mean.

Andrea Kent


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1358 times:

So, why do people keep falling for the same Chewbacca defense?

We know that criticizing a state is not racist, why do we keep falling for it?

Andrea Kent


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1313 times:

Nobody?

Andrea Kent
Pi is approximately equal to 3.1415926535897932384626433


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1310 times:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chewbacca+defense

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1275 times:

Andrea this is not the place to have a meaningful discussion about the middle east.

It is not going to happen. I got slagged by my own side and ignored by all the usual suspects for suggesting that instead of bitching people come up with some concrete solutions for Iraq.

Some people think that the internet is the road to involvement and new solutions ot age old problems. We can't fix with technology what's not in our hearts and minds. All it's done is increase the background noise.

I do not care how many times we multiply zero, it still comes out the same.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1263 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 5):
Quoting Dsa (Reply 4):The best way forward for the Middle East is peace, forward thinking, innovation and diplomacy.
No kidding.

And in other news, the sun is expected to rise tomorrow morning.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 19):
Andrea this is not the place to have a meaningful discussion about the middle east.

Well, since "meaningful discussions" on the Middle East aren't being conducted in the "traditional" locales, this is as good a place as any.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 19):
Some people think that the internet is the road to involvement and new solutions ot age old problems. We can't fix with technology what's not in our hearts and minds. All it's done is increase the background noise.

I agree that the background noise IS higher than it used to be. But the upside of the internet is that it has wrested control of the news from the few, and made it harder to slant and spin the news to advance the political interest of the media elite.

While most middle east discussions end up as a flame fest, some have actually been relevant and educational.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1238 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 19):
Some people think that the internet is the road to involvement and new solutions ot age old problems. We can't fix with technology what's not in our hearts and minds. All it's done is increase the background noise.

I agree that the background noise IS higher than it used to be. But the upside of the internet is that it has wrested control of the news from the few, and made it harder to slant and spin the news to advance the political interest of the media elite.

Well, that's true.....I read the National Post, Globe and Mail, the Scotsman, along with the Los Angeles Times and the Miami Herald....

Along with that, there is a lot more garbage to sort through....but the news on Google is a big part of my day that allows me to blog with the best of them.

Back in 96 I was the projects editor for an agri law journal and the school had just bought a bunch of power macs with Navigator on them to replace the old Digital VAX.

I was cite checking and an author referenced a EU council directive. It took me exactly seventeen minutes to locate it and print it. I remember thinking "this is gonna be BIG". I shoulda bought stock.

I think the only thing that's happened in the last 100 years that's comparable to the combination of the PC and the internet is maybe commercial radio in the 1920s. This is revolutionary shit indeed.

To paraphrase Samuel F.B. Morse, "What hath DARPA wrought?" Who knew?


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