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Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973  
User currently offlineJFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

Looking over a wikipeida article.. I was wondering if anyone had some more knowledge as to what happened that Israel shot down the plane over Egypt in 1973

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWorkFlyer From New Zealand, joined Dec 2006, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4313 times:

At the time, the Libyan plane had got lost on a flight from Libya to Egypt. It strayed to the East bank of the Nile over the Sinai desert. At the time Israel was occupying the Sinai. They then shot it down. Basically that is it end of story. Attempts to censure Israel were as usual vetoed by the US.

User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4300 times:

Quoting WorkFlyer (Reply 1):
Attempts to censure Israel were as usual vetoed by the US.

to be fair the U.S also accidentally shot down an Iranian Airbus in the late 80's

But getting back to the topic you have to realize that with the military situation at the time right after the 73 war, Israel was on a high state of alert and unfortunetaly that aircraft was at the wrong place at the wrong time. In one of the earlier wars they even attacked by mistake a U.S. navy ship.



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4291 times:

Quoting WorkFlyer (Reply 1):
Attempts to censure Israel were as usual vetoed by the US.

I saw the topic and was thinking five replies before it got political.

One is a record!

I think this might end up in the Non-Av section or archived here in a few...

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4272 times:

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 3):

 checkmark  to Checko!

Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineWorkFlyer From New Zealand, joined Dec 2006, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4267 times:

Any country/group that shoots down a civilian airliner should face some recourse, be it the Vincennes event in the Gulf, the Soviets and the Korean Air disaster or the Israelis and the Libyan Air shootdown. There is no excuse for murdering civillians.

By the way there are WAY more cases than these three. For instance in the Zimbabwean war of independence/civil war there was a plane shot down. Or the DHL plane fired upon by Iraqi terrorists. In these instances as wll the people firing the missiles knew they were firing at civillian targets, but did so anyway. Just because they are bereft of morals does not provide them with an excuse to murder or attempt to murder civiliians going about their own business. And if the protaganists are brought to some form of judgement, it is morally corrupt IMHO to come up with a spurious defence (Zimbabwean rebels saying that civillian aircraft are legitimate targets) or rely on a powerful friends (US vetoes of UN sanctions) to bail you out.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4211 times:

Quoting WorkFlyer (Reply 5):
Any country/group that shoots down a civilian airliner should face some recourse, be it the Vincennes event in the Gulf, the Soviets and the Korean Air disaster or the Israelis and the Libyan Air shootdown. There is no excuse for murdering civillians.

 checkmark 

Excellent points, people should be held accountable for their actions, a simple apology wont be enough.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24947 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4200 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 2):
accidentally

Accidentally?  scratchchin 



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4181 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 7):
Accidentally?

LOL, we didnt really it was a scheduled passenger airliner,  Yeah sure



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8142 posts, RR: 54
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4159 times:

It was actually an Air France 727 wetleased to Libyan Arab AL. They realised their mistake and had already turned around and were heading west away from Israel back towards Cairo. Israel shot it down anyway.

Quoting WorkFlyer (Reply 1):
Attempts to censure Israel were as usual vetoed by the US.



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 3):
I saw the topic and was thinking five replies before it got political.

By "political" you mean, "in anyway critical of Israel" - of course it's a political thread! Israel killed more than 100 innocent people and escaped criticism, let alone doing anything to make up for it. Are we supposed to overlook this and say how great Israel is?! Just so it doesn't get "political"?!



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4135 times:

Britain came bloody close to shooting one down in the run up to the Falklands War. An Argentine 707 had been monitoring their progress south, and had been warned off. It apparently re-appeared and they were on the verge of opening fire but held back long enough for them to discover it was a routine passenger flight from Brazil.


She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4061 times:

More here http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19730221-1 shame that they tried to escape they should
landed in Sinai instead, but easy to be armchair quarterback.
Workflyer, 2 civilian airliners where shot down by Zimbabwean terrorist during the 1970ies.


User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4022 times:

I don't get it. According to ASN, the thing happened in broad daylight with Israeli fighters in the air right next to the 727, they could clearly see it was a civilian airliner. And they thought it would "escape"? Escape what? An unwelcome guest leaving, is that a bad thing?

This is just as ridiculous as the Korean Air shoot down.

Regards,
OV735


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4019 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 12):
... Israeli fighters in the air right next to the 727, they could clearly see it was a civilian airliner.

The fighters are the ones that shot it down with cannon fire after reapeated commands to land and warning shots being fired.

It's a tragedy that was allowed to happen by poor judgement of all parties involved.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4002 times:

People, the internet exists to make research a little faster and easier. USE IT before making statements that are not based on facts.

Here are two POVs.

http://www.mathaba.net/info/flight114.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_114

"When the F-4s showed up, the Libyan copilot identified them incorrectly as Egyptian MiGs. When the fighters signaled the airliner, the captain and flight engineer gesticulated angrily about the rudeness of their (supposedly Egyptian) pilots. There are two airfields around Cairo: Cairo East and Cairo West. Cairo East is the international airport, whilst Cairo West is a military air base. The crew thought they have overshot Cairo West and are approaching Cairo East, and interpreted the presence of the (presumed Egyptian) fighters as an escort back to Cairo West.

They began descending towards Refidim, soon realising it was a military air base. They decided it would be a mistake to land there, and started heading back for Cairo West. Shortly after they were fired upon but could not comprehend why, only realising the fighter jets were Israeli shortly before crashing, however the black box recording does not reveal how they incorporated this new fact into their understanding of the situation."

"The United Nations did not to take any action against Israel. The 30 member nations of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) voted to censure Israel for the attack, but the U.S. abstained."


User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3981 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):
The 30 member nations of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) voted to censure Israel for the attack, but the U.S. abstained."

And why th US abstained ?

Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3973 times:

How the could mistake a F-4 for a MIG is beyond me, anyways, I think the blame lays at the arrogance of the flight crew if a military plane want something you do as you´re told if you´re a pilot in command of a commercial airliner.

User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3969 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 16):
How the could mistake a F-4 for a MIG is beyond me...



User currently offlineWorkFlyer From New Zealand, joined Dec 2006, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3964 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 16):
How the could mistake a F-4 for a MIG is beyond me, anyways, I think the blame lays at the arrogance of the flight crew if a military plane want something you do as you´re told if you´re a pilot in command of a commercial airliner.

Why should the Co-pilot have to be versed in recognising the difference between fighter jets in order to understand the intentions of the jet fighters.

Also why should the blame lie with the aircrew of the CIVILIAN airliner only? The pilot of the F4 could see plainly that it was a commercial jet, and it was the cannon fire of the F4 that brought said jet down.

The airliners was heading back to Egypt when it was shot down so it is a mystery as to how the fighter pilot saw an AF 727 (Granted wetleased to Libyan Air) civillian airliner heading to Egypt over a desert as a threat.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 11):
Workflyer, 2 civilian airliners where shot down by Zimbabwean terrorist during the 1970ies

I had forgotten about the second one.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3964 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 16):
I think the blame lays at the arrogance of the flight crew

I don't think so. Unfortunately, this seems to be the typical airplane accident scenario, where if one factor was NOT present, the accident would not have occurred.


User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3929 times:

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 15):
And why th US abstained ?

Alex!!!

Five letters for you. A-I-P-A-C.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineMoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2345 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3925 times:

Quoting WorkFlyer (Reply 18):
Also why should the blame lie with the aircrew of the CIVILIAN airliner only? The pilot of the F4 could see plainly that it was a commercial jet, and it was the cannon fire of the F4 that brought said jet down.

Because a commercial jet could never pose a threat...you know, like by flying into a building or something.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9524 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

The wikipedia article (see - reply 14) gives a clear and neutral summary of what happened.

Important to know is that at this time, Israel was in a state of war with Egypt,with Libya and more or less the rest of the Arab World and all of them tried to erase Israel from the map (some are still on that trip today).

A commerical airliner crew that is intercepted by military jets is well advised to either establish communication or follow
the instructions. The procedures are well known to all pilots. Trying to "escape" is exactly the wrong thing to do. The LN crew had ample time to follow the instructions of the F4sand land at a military base. They did not and they are the ones to blame .



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3863 times:

Quoting JFK787NYC (Thread starter):
Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

This was my first shock regarding Israel ! Israel killed MAMA SALWA
I was six years old than,one year after we moved from BUE to wonderfull Paris of the Middle East "By than" BEY.One of my favourite programs was MAMA SALWA and one of the victims was the popular TV personality Salwa Hegazi from Egypt.She use to have a special programme on tv dedicated to kids from all over the Arab world. She was so sweet at everybody loved her.I remember when she died I was chocked and asked myself who is Israel ? why Israel would kill Mama Salwa.

Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineFlyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 23):
why Israel would kill Mama Salwa.

Maybe because there were so many Arab nations trying to kill Mama Golda at that time? And together with her most of the other mammas in Israel?  Yeah sure

Alex (without !!!!)


25 Cedars747 : It's hard to know the truth.Anyway,I dont care any more ,I lost so many friends and relatives in Lebanon that I get used to it Alex!!!
26 Alessandro : Also remember that the Bar-Lev line was something that was heavy fortified and lot of nervous people there, no I still think that a chain of events le
27 OV735 : I doubt the concept had been invented that long ago. And even if it had, were the Israelis worried that when the 727 turned around it would ram a bui
28 BHXFAOTIPYYC : The Israelis shot down 5A-DAH and a Libyan AF Mirage or Mig23 crashed into 5A-DIA in 1992. Can't be too many airlines out there who have lost 727's fr
29 MDorBust : RTA?
30 AndesSMF : From the articles it states that the pilots believe, till it was too late, that the fighters were Egyptian. There was also a sandstorm that made for
31 Connies4ever : Which one ? Don't forget, the Soviets shot down TWO KAL a/c, the 747 which most people remember in the 80s (and on which I had a friend), and a 707 i
32 PanHAM : No excuse. First, a professional pilot should be able to tell a Mig from an F4 Phantom, second, even if it was an Egyptian fighter, if he's telling y
33 OV735 : OK, I stand corrected, the concept had been invented by that time. Nevertheless, as I understand from the article, the aircraft was far from the poss
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