Kjet12 From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 971 posts, RR: 12 Posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 963 times:
The NY Times is reporting that former New Jersey governor, James McGreevey, who resigned in 2004 after an alleged affair with another man, wants to become an Episcopalian priest. The information is available in the link below. What are everyone's thoughts on this?
Newark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 38 Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 935 times:
I don't really care about the gay part, I care more about the deceiving and lying part. If that's the kind of guy Episcopalians want as a leader, that's sad.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 16475 posts, RR: 62 Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 883 times:
Doesn't Jimmy Swaggart still have a ministry? I thought one of the tenets of christianity was forgiveness.
Newark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 38 Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 880 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11): Doesn't Jimmy Swaggart still have a ministry? I thought one of the tenets of christianity was forgiveness.
There's a difference between forgiving someone and letting them be a community leader and role model.
And just because someone of questionable character was allowed to be a minister before, doesn't make it right. It seems this title of "minister" is thrown around too much as it is anyway.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 16475 posts, RR: 62 Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 878 times:
Quoting Newark777 (Reply 12): There's a difference between forgiving someone and letting them be a community leader and role model.
So when does someone attain full forgiveness? Do they have to die for that? It's an honest question--I'm not familiar with all the ins and outs of the various christian religions.
Newark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 38 Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 875 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
So when does someone attain full forgiveness? Do they have to die for that? It's an honest question--I'm not familiar with all the ins and outs of the various christian religions.
I don't think this is an issue of forgiveness at all. I mean, even if you were to forgive a murderer or a rapist (extreme examples), would you want him being a minister? I doubt it.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 16475 posts, RR: 62 Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 865 times:
Quoting Newark777 (Reply 14): even if you were to forgive a murderer or a rapist (extreme examples), would you want him being a minister?
Why not? It's someone who's gone through all the stages of falling from grace and redemption, able to share with and counsel others.
Newark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 38 Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 860 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15): Why not? It's someone who's gone through all the stages of falling from grace and redemption, able to share with and counsel others.
That's the thing, you have to balance the sanctity of the job with the responsibility not to judge somebody simply by their past transgressions. If he comes out saying he is a changed man and wants to make a better life for himself, good for him, but he doesn't exactly have a great history of being honest.
MD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8227 posts, RR: 15 Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 857 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15): Why not? It's someone who's gone through all the stages of falling from grace and redemption, able to share with and counsel others.
There are some amazing Chrisitan speakers (who generally don't hold the position of minister, even if they may do work very similiar to it) who have been drug addicts and alcoholics and other things, but I've yet to hear of any murderers turned ministers. There's a long process to go between the two, but it isn't impossible. Announcing that you're going to become a minister/priest/rabbi doesn't necessarily give you credibility.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 16475 posts, RR: 62 Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 857 times:
Quoting Newark777 (Reply 16): If he comes out saying he is a changed man and wants to make a better life for himself, good for him, but he doesn't exactly have a great history of being honest.
That's where christianity breaks down for me. There really is no forgiveness on earth which doesn't seem to go along with the basis of the faith. Anyway, thanks for your insight.
Newark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 38 Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 846 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18): There really is no forgiveness on earth which doesn't seem to go along with the basis of the faith
Could you expand on this a little bit? I'm curious about your thoughts on the matter. Anyway, I'm going to bed, I'll check back with this thread tomorrow.
BHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 6 Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 841 times:
Quoting Newark777 (Reply 4): I don't really care about the gay part, I care more about the deceiving and lying part. If that's the kind of guy Episcopalians want as a leader, that's sad.
Unfortunately, this is the same diocese that gave us Bishop Spong. I lived in an adjacent diocese during his tenure and he was always the ten ton gorilla in the room that nobody would talk about in most cases.
Quoting STLGph (Reply 5): episcopalians are concerned about one thing -- the success of their canned food drive.
We're also concerned about making sure we don't run out of booze during fundraisers.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 16475 posts, RR: 62 Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 840 times:
Quoting Newark777 (Reply 19): Could you expand on this a little bit? I'm curious about your thoughts on the matter.
It seems like on earth, christianity doesn't allow you to be redeemed, if a sin makes you unacceptable to other christians. But according to the bible, you're all sinners. It seems quite illogical to me.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 16475 posts, RR: 62 Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 838 times:
Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 20): We're also concerned about making sure we don't run out of booze during fundraisers.
Kevi747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1052 posts, RR: 15 Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 810 times:
Quoting Newark777 (Reply 4): I don't really care about the gay part, I care more about the deceiving and lying part.
Absolutely, I feel really bad for his wife having to stand up there and be humiliated in front of the whole country as he came out. That must have been hard. I honestly can't stand this guy. Now he's being treated as some sort of hero by many in the gay world, but unless he was forced to, he would never have come out.
Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 6): Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 3):
because it's a well known fact that every single gay man molests children.
PHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 6974 posts, RR: 31 Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 799 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11): Doesn't Jimmy Swaggart still have a ministry? I thought one of the tenets of christianity was forgiveness.
Yes & No. Yes, he does still have a ministry; but no, he's no longer affiliated w/the Assembly of God denomination.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
25 LTBEWR: Members of the Episcopalian church and it's leadership are deeply divided over the issue of gay behavior and having openly gay ministers. That former
26 767Lover: I don't think his past in and of himself would make him a bad priest; however, I think to be credible as a leader in that faith, he needs to go throug
27 767Lover: Edit: Sorry, there is no Edit button on my posts. I meant to say "before becoming a faith leader."
28 BHMBAGLOCK: Sometime we'll get together for a few drinks and I'll tell you about the fundraiser where we ended up with the Lady Chablis dancing. Without doubt th
30 Jaysit: I think he's being treated as more of a curiosity than anything else. The fact that he's graced the cover of many a gay rag is because scandal sells
31 Newark777: Where do you get this idea that sin makes you unacceptable to other Christians? It's simply not true. We are taught forgiveness and acceptance from a
32 ConcordeBoy: ...that's actually not an extreme example at all. Inmate ministries/ministers are some of the most widespread outreach programs out there. Anyone who
33 Kevi747: I hope you're right, because he's certainly no hero. He's a self-serving, opportunistic sociopath. True. I think a lot of people (including myself) a
34 Superfly: From politician to Priest? It appears that James McGreevey likes to be in the spotlight and craves attention. I think the best move for him is to beco
35 ConcordeBoy: Chick didn't ~have~ to do anything. Humiliation by the fact that she was lied to by a cowardly sociopath may have been beyond her control, but she su
37 Kevi747: Yeah, I didn't see a gun at her head. But it was admirable that she (and his parents) did. Standing by your loved ones used to be thing of honor. The
38 ConcordeBoy: Sure. Ellen's a great example of someone who was once on a level with these two, but then figured out she'd do better as a role model by example; ins
39 AeroWesty: Then please explain all the earlier comments about him becoming a priest that are almost on the verge of "how dare he". Such as: I'd think someone re
40 Newark777: All I'm saying is that everything he has done on the public stage for us to see has been negative and scandalous. Although we should forgive him, it
41 Kevi747: because: Sorry, excuse me. I've never been one to let small typo's detract from the posters clear intent. But in the event that you meant to type "in
42 AeroWesty: I agree with that. But there hasn't been a single person saying yet that they've forgiven him for his sins, it's all been negative remarks. And I und
43 ConcordeBoy: Ah, a thousand pardons... I must've been too busy trying to find the "a" between your "be" and "thing" when I wrote that (this can go on as long as y
44 Delta767300ER: As a Conservative Anglo-Catholic, I am against Mr. McGreevey becoming a Priest (In this denomination). I do not believe openly homosexual persons shou
45 Newark777: That it true, forgiveness is very important. I'm certainly willing to forgive the guy, of course I've also never met him. The late Pope John Paul II
46 Kevi747: No problem, happens all the time. Fair enough. If we were talking about her life with him as a whole I'd say you were dead on. But standing by him at
47 ConcordeBoy: ...but again, that rolls back to the original statement and question-- what tangible benefit did she get out of putting herself through said hardship
48 Kevi747: I guess I've never defined an honorable action as something that people do to get a benefit for themselves. I think when people have the strength of
49 ConcordeBoy: You're explaining your sentiments fine, I just couldn't possibly disagree with them more.
50 Kevi747: Thank you. I'm sorry you don't agree with me. I was hoping to make sense to the majority of you. I don't know what else to say. Buenas noches.
51 MD80fanatic: Whoever said forgiveness frees one of all sins? I think you might be confusing forgiveness with "forget"ness. Forgiving someone does not turn the clo
52 AeroWesty: Where did I say that? It's the act of remorse and contrition between you and god which frees one of sins--it's up to the other christians to forgive
53 MD80fanatic: I think you used the "free from all sins" terminology in your original post above. There are a few sins that can never be forgiven.....one is the orig
54 AeroWesty: Actually, Harry brought that up: It doesn't seem like many are willing to give him the chance, which is where the question of christian-like forgiven
55 MD80fanatic: Okay.....sorry I missed Harry's post. My bad. I'm willing to give the guy a chance, but it's not my place to give it. I don't live in New Jersey, I am
56 767Lover: Not that I practice organized Christianity, but for the sake of argument: I forgive McGreevy. However my forgiveness is inconsequential, and especiall
57 AeroWesty: Quite alright. I forgive you. I dunno, Dog makes an awesome Bounty Hunter. That's a completely separate issue. The bigger picture is if you wanted to
58 AeroWesty: He's entering seminary school, just like any other priest would.
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