Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Taking A USA Car To Europe...?  
User currently offlineAA787823 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 28917 times:

A friend on mine is planning on going to Europe for 2 1/2 months in early July. He wants to ship his car to Europe to drive around while he is there...then ship it back. While I am sure he will have to purchase some type of insurance, what about his registration. Can he get away with driving on his California plates (assuming he has them by then, he just bought the car on Tuesday).
Are there any smog issues to be concernced with?

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 28911 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

I don't know about insurance (you definitely need to have one), but yes, you can drive around with California plates. You see US registered cars driving around in Europe sometimes, so it's definitely possible.


Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 28907 times:

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 1):
yes, you can drive around with California plates

 checkmark  AFAIK, the red blinkers found on many US cars aren't a problem either but he should check that one.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 28904 times:

Why do people do this? Must be awfully costly to ship a car and back, especially for just a trip.


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAA787823 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 28897 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Why do people do this? Must be awfully costly to ship a car and back, especially for just a trip.

For my friend, money is no object. He retired at the old age of 31. He wants to drive his 2007 Corvette around Europe. He may wind up selling it there, but ya never know...


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 28885 times:

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 4):
He retired at the old age of 31.

Bet he got the full deal incl. third teeth and all... lucky him! Anyway, driving a technically delicate sports car he should also take a look at automobile associations, possibly the AAA can offer some sort of partnership with European AAs. Even if money isn't an option and he can easily pay for services himself, he'll still appreciate being picked up quickly.  Wink



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 28879 times:

I shipped my Camaro from Halifax, NS to Liverpool on an ACL ro-ro and it only cost C$600 back in 1992. Sea freight, even containerised, is amazingly cheap. Apart from insurance, there are no special requirements for his vehicle. He isn't required to get his vehicle safety inspected or re-registered. Nice way to avoid the speed cameras too!


Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
User currently offlineAir380 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 28844 times:

From experience: don't do it! He will spend a lot of time in offices, talking to the police on road checks, etc. Maybe he would like to spend his time driving and not talking to the authorities! Really, I talk from experience, if you want (rather lenghty) details, I am happy to tell you.

User currently offlineBa757gla From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 760 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 28767 times:

There are quite a few American Plated cars around. Even seen a n australian one last year!

User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2614 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 28705 times:

If he doesn't intend to register his car in EU, he's fine. He can drive his 'Vette in Europe without any problems. An overseas insurance from his local insurance company should be sufficient, however it's possible to purchase insurance for temporarily used vehicles from local insurance companies.

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 6):
I shipped my Camaro from Halifax, NS to Liverpool on an ACL ro-ro and it only cost C$600 back in 1992.

It's definitely more than that nowadays. An 20' container from the GTA to Hamburg would cost you close to $ 3500.


User currently offlineCoal From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2050 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 28654 times:

I know for a fact there's a brown Grand Cherokee with New Jersey plates roaming Europe. Saw it in Dublin in Juy 2005 and then again in Tallinn in June 2006. Quite a coincidence!

Cheers
Coal



Nxt Flts: VA SYD-CBR-SYD | QF SYD-DFW | AA DFW-TLH-MIA-DFW | QF DFW-SYD
User currently offlineCoal From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2050 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 28653 times:

I also wanted to add that some time back in 2005 I saw a BMW 5 Series driving East on I-10 in FL with UK plates.

Cheers
Coal



Nxt Flts: VA SYD-CBR-SYD | QF SYD-DFW | AA DFW-TLH-MIA-DFW | QF DFW-SYD
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 28640 times:

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 4):
He may wind up selling it there,

That won't be so easy. The buyer will need to ensure that the vehicle meets the standards applicable in the country concerned. The EU rules should be the same, or at least similar, but other European standards are likely to differ. US/EU standards are close, but not the same.

A colleague tried to import a 'scooter' from the US to Switzerland. Since that particular make/model had never been retailed here - he had to pay for an initial inspection (something the car companies have to do with each new make/model) which would have cost him 20K CHF! I think it's still sitting in his basement. There are exceptions for 'classic' cars - but I don't think his car would qualify.


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 28630 times:

Don' do it. If he's got money there are a dozen cars he could lease: Astin Martin, Germans, Italians,... Better cars and better ways to spend his time in Europe.

If he insists, don't listen to any complaints about red tape, he asked for it.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineRlwynn From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 1086 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 28608 times:

You can rent Corvettes here in Germany from Avis.


I can drive faster than you
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13116 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 28596 times:

I know that there are companies at major ports like Port Newark/Elizabeth, NJ that specialize in the sea shipping of motor vehicles and I am quite sure similar companies are available at other port cities as well. Probably a web search can locate such companies. You may have to arrange transport of the car to a port city as well. I am quite sure your friends real goal is to drive on the Autobahn sectors without a speed limit, but I hope he has enough brains to be a sufficiently skilled driver, not just go on a lark to go 150 MPH+ and get killed or kill others.

User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 28587 times:

Quoting AA787823 (Thread starter):
A friend on mine is planning on going to Europe for 2 1/2 months in early July. He wants to ship his car to Europe to drive around while he is there...then ship it back.

For a trip that short I don't think the cost and time will be out weighed. I'm guessing he'll need to start the process several weeks before his scheduled departure for the car to be there when he arrives, and then he would need to wait several weeks after his arrival back in the US to get his car back. Seeing that he lives in CA, ... add even more time there.......!!!! A lot more time.....!! Meaning... if he really wants to do this for a trip in early July, he would need to ship soon..... very-very soon.

[Edited 2007-05-06 15:17:06]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineUTA_flyinghigh From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 6495 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 28579 times:

There's vehicles running around with US plates even here in Tunisia. If his license/registration/insurance are in order there'll be no problems at all.

Furthermore you can blast through those pesky speed camerhaas as I am pretty sure there are no EU/USA agreements on motoring offences.

UTA  checkeredflag 



Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
User currently offlineAA787823 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 28558 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 16):
For a trip that short I don't think the cost and time will be out weighed. I'm guessing he'll need to start the process several weeks before his scheduled departure for the car to be there when he arrives, and then he would need to wait several weeks after his arrival back in the US to get his car back. Seeing that he lives in CA, ... add even more time there.......!!!! A lot more time.....!! Meaning... if he really wants to do this for a trip in early July, he would need to ship soon..... very-very soon.

He was planning on shipping the car in the next week or two....But since he just bought the car last week, he will not have his plates yet. Only the "Courtesy Chevrolet" paper advertisement and the California Report of Sale (temp tag). California usually takes 4-6 weeks to get the plates out.

He has 7 cars...I dont think the time of not having a car is that big a deal to him....Must be nice to have lots of $$$$$$$.


User currently offlineLijnden From Philippines, joined Apr 2003, 564 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 28502 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

As a tourist you can bring your car unlimited in the EU. You must have proof of insurance (try Aegon company in the USA) and they will issue you a insurance card or else try AAA. I have always shipped my cars from Norfolk, VA or Balimore, MD or Port Elizabeth, NJ and insurance for both the trip and Europe was not a problem. You can drive around with the existing plates as a tourist for 1 year. Fuel is also not a problem (exept the price!) and the lower octanes (up to 95) will do fine.


Be kind to animals!
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 28499 times:

Just a word about driving in Europe with foreign plates, if you get pulled over for speeding or other moving violations requiring a fine, you have to pay on the spot, so either make sure you've got lots of cash on you or drive very carefully.


BTW,

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 4):
He may wind up selling it there



Quoting AA787823 (Reply 18):
But since he just bought the car last week

 Confused



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21641 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 28473 times:

Quoting Coal (Reply 11):
I also wanted to add that some time back in 2005 I saw a BMW 5 Series driving East on I-10 in FL with UK plates.

I've seen a lot of cars with foreign front plates in FL, but they all have FL plates on the back.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineLOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 28438 times:

Quoting Air380 (Reply 7):
From experience: don't do it! He will spend a lot of time in offices, talking to the police on road checks, etc. Maybe he would like to spend his time driving and not talking to the authorities! Really, I talk from experience, if you want (rather lenghty) details, I am happy to tell you.

You are not speaking from experience at all, or maybe your experience is limited to one country. I have driven at least 5 US registered vehicles in the EU including having 2 cars shipped from the USA there (most recently yesterday I put a 2006 Jeep Liberty Limited CRD in the container port from Chicago-->Norfolk-->Bremerhaven-->Gdynia-->Warsaw.

Furthermore, I have never had a problem with any car that I was driving with authorities, and never spent anytime in offices except to have the shipping arranged (which takes 1 hour of paperwork fillouts and payment)

Quoting ANother (Reply 12):
That won't be so easy. The buyer will need to ensure that the vehicle meets the standards applicable in the country concerned. The EU rules should be the same, or at least similar, but other European standards are likely to differ. US/EU standards are close, but not the same.

Major differences. Blinkers must be orange not red, there must be rear fog lights and the front lights are asymetrical in the EU, symetrical in the United States.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 16):
For a trip that short I don't think the cost and time will be out weighed. I'm guessing he'll need to start the process several weeks before his scheduled departure for the car to be there when he arrives, and then he would need to wait several weeks after his arrival back in the US to get his car back. Seeing that he lives in CA, ... add even more time there.......!!!! A lot more time.....!! Meaning... if he really wants to do this for a trip in early July, he would need to ship soon..... very-very soon.



Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
I've seen a lot of cars with foreign front plates in FL, but they all have FL plates on the back.

Yes, because theres alot of idiot American kids who think they are German by putting a plate on the front of their VW. Idiots.

Let me spell out some rumors here that this undertaking is not that expensive if you have cash.

You ship either via sealed container or a car carrier. Depending on what your port of destination is. For example, Car shipped Chicago-->Bremerhaven goes by car carrier, Chicago-->Gdynia goes by sealed container.

If your friend wants to know dimensions here they are:

20 feet (20 ft) 20 ft x 8 ft x 8 ft 5 in
6,1 m x 2,4 m x 2,6 m ok. 33 m3

40 feet(40 ft) 40 ft x 8 ft x 8 ft 6 in
12,2 m x 2,4 m x 2,6 m ok. 67 m3

40 feet High Cube (40 ft HC) 40 ft x 8 ft x 9 ft 6 in
12,2 m x 2,4 m x 2,9 m ok. 76 m3

Here are the companies that ship USA--Europe car traffic:

Armator Pojemnoœæ TEU[5] Udzia³ w rynku Liczba statków
A.P. Moller-Maersk Group 1,665,272 18.2% 549
Mediterranean Shipping Company S.A. 784,248 8.6% 299
CMA CGM 507,954 5.6% 256
Evergreen Marine Corporation 477,911 5.2% 153
Hapag-Lloyd 412,344 4.5% 140
China Shipping Container Lines 346,493 3.8% 111
American President Lines 331,437 3.6% 99
Hanjin-Senator 328,794 3.6% 145
COSCO 322,326 3.5% 118
NYK Line 302,213 3.3% 105

First line is capacity, second is market share, third is number of ships.

If you need to clear customs and re-register your vehicle the approximate time is 4-6 weeks depending where the car is shipped from and what country it is being shipped to. If the car is going to be on US plates of course no customs financial clearance and the wait is 3-4 days shorter (where excise, duty and tax is collected...about 60-65% of car value in Poland for example where a $20k Jeep Liberty in the end costs $33-34k taxes, duties and excise VAT paid).

You can buy marine insurance for the trip (and should), or the only land company that provides regular insurance that will cover overseas shipping is Progressive (which is one of the many reasons why they are so damn expensive)

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 13):
Don' do it. If he's got money there are a dozen cars he could lease: Astin Martin, Germans, Italians,... Better cars and better ways to spend his time in Europe.

Or he can drive his corvette if he wants to. Maybe hes got enough dough that he doesnt want a car with annoying asymetrical lighting...

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 15):
You may have to arrange transport of the car to a port city as well.

You dont have to, the company arranges shipping to port of export and is part of package such as Norfolk or Baltimore.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 9):
It's definitely more than that nowadays. An 20' container from the GTA to Hamburg would cost you close to $ 3500.

Seems costly even if we are talking CDN. Chicago - Hamburg / Bremerhaven costs $1450USD, Direct to central Poland costs $1750USD. Price for a 40 is $1000 more and $1200 for a 40 high cube.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 20):
Just a word about driving in Europe with foreign plates, if you get pulled over for speeding or other moving violations requiring a fine, you have to pay on the spot, so either make sure you've got lots of cash on you or drive very carefully.

Not everytime, I got stopped once in Czech Rep with my friend in a Grand Prix last summer returning from Italy for not having an Interstate sticker and we got fined something like equivalent to $100USD and he wrote us a ticket. Oh well, we were on Illinois plates so all they did was waste their time.


User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 28427 times:

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 22):
Not everytime, I got stopped once in Czech Rep with my friend in a Grand Prix last summer returning from Italy for not having an Interstate sticker and we got fined something like equivalent to $100USD and he wrote us a ticket. Oh well, we were on Illinois plates so all they did was waste their time.

There's always exceptions, but in Germany for example, if you get pulled over for speeding and you do not have German plates, you have to pay on the spot, otherwise it's off to the station where your car will be impounded or if you leave another valuable deposit until you get the funds. But, as I said, there are exceptions, however, that's the way it usually goes.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineLijnden From Philippines, joined Apr 2003, 564 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 28419 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Just use Ro-Ro shipping! A one-way trip from Norfolk/Baltimore or Port Elizabeth will cost you around US$ 850-1000. As a shipping company I use Wallenius shipping.

http://www.2wglobal.com/www/WEP

Good luck



Be kind to animals!
25 Post contains images KaiGywer : Not for that long of a trip. I'm sure renting for so long would be pretty expensive, knowing rental rates in Europe. Probably cheaper to ship, plus t
26 DeltaDC9 : Corvettes are not "delecate" like European sports cars. Better car than a 07 Vette? Please. Better ways than driving a Vette around Europe? Agan, PLE
27 JJJ : Same in France and Spain. They will usually escort you to an ATM should you need to, though. At least he won't have to worry about unmanned speed cam
28 Post contains images Coal : Your point being? He had the steering wheel on the right side, does that tell you anything? Cheers Coal
29 Post contains images ACDC8 : Yeah, but with my luck, they only accept Visa .... These are options as well. In Hamburg and Amsterdam they do ...
30 SWISSER : I wish they where as delecate in the corners and on traction as a delecate european sports car... Great price though! I had a cadillac XLR-V a few mo
31 Viscount724 : GM sold 1265 Corvettes in Europe in 2006 according to data in their European website. By the way, they're not sold under the Chevrolet name in Europe,
32 JJJ : They're sold in Cadillac dealers, btw. (That often means that Jeep, Hummer and sometimes even Saab and/or Opel are in the mix, too).
33 LH423 : Ugh, it's common to see that in Québec as well (where there's no front plate requirement). The kind they have in Québec don't even look like Europe
34 Post contains images ACDC8 : Even though in BC, we're required to have a front plate (Lord only knows why ... ), I'll be putting a German plate on the front of my new Golf when i
35 Post contains images Kunoichi : Yes, very lucky- he gets to speed and maybe kill someone because he chooses not to obey that rule, just because it's "fun". I seriously hope you have
36 JJJ : Most speed cameras are put in places where it's perfectly safe to go over the posted limit. They're not there to reduce accidents, but rather to coll
37 SWISSER : I thought the Europlates where one of the most boring ones around! I like the USA/CDN style, giving some character to your plate, it actually hides t
38 Air380 : On the contrary, I am speaking from experience. Yes, we brought a car over to Germany, from container port Charleston, SC to Bremerhaven, Germany. Ma
39 Post contains images ACDC8 : They are, but they seem to look just right on a VW or other European car ...
40 Post contains images Sovietjet : Interesting topic, I was planning on shipping my WRX to Bulgaria either this summer or next summer but never really investigated the costs. Oh and I w
41 Braybuddy : What's the reason for wanting to drive his own car in Europe? It seems a completely pointless exercise and an awful lot more trouble than it's worth.
42 KaiGywer : Do any of the transatlantic cruises accept cars?
43 Post contains images ACDC8 : I don't know, but the Maybach was shipped over with the QE2(?) for it's premiere ...
44 AA787823 : He really likes the car, plus he thinks he will be able to pick up more girls driving around in his Vette then a typical European car. The car shippe
45 Post contains images SWISSER : You might be right, if you look at the front end of the newest generation of VW and Audi's, it seems like the styling is done to accomodate a plate.
46 Bongodog1964 : As he only bought it this week, wouldn't it have been far easier to buy one here in Europe ?. Then it would have been waiting for him on arrival. Wit
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Accomodations For An Extended Trip To Europe? posted Mon Jan 22 2007 03:40:33 by San747
Russia Cuts Oil Supplies To Europe posted Mon Jan 8 2007 22:32:14 by L410Turbolet
Traveling From The US To Europe With T-Mobile posted Tue Dec 26 2006 10:37:37 by UA777222
So Im Going To Europe posted Sat Nov 11 2006 05:09:34 by RichPhitzwell
The Best Car To Have Sex In Is... posted Thu Oct 5 2006 23:06:51 by 9V
I'm Taking The Girls To See "Cars" Tonight posted Fri Jun 16 2006 17:20:32 by Tom in NO
Yet Another "What Car To Buy" Thread posted Sun May 14 2006 00:06:49 by Airwave
Taking My PC To Hungary..Please Help! posted Sun Mar 26 2006 19:01:39 by Wardialer
USA Car Rental Help posted Sat Jan 28 2006 12:58:15 by Airtrainer
Ahmadinejad To Europe - Take Jews Back posted Sat Jan 21 2006 04:52:44 by Halls120
Best Way To Move To Europe? posted Wed Mar 18 2009 07:15:50 by Lxa333
Leaving Children In The Car To Die posted Wed Mar 11 2009 19:10:29 by PROSA
Road Trip USA - East To West Or West To East? posted Thu Sep 18 2008 09:10:39 by LNv22
Help A Noob Plan His First Trip To Europe posted Wed Feb 27 2008 18:19:10 by Fly2HMO
Travelers To Europe May Face Fingerprinting posted Tue Feb 12 2008 07:03:02 by Atmx2000
7-Year Old Steals Car To Avoid Going To Church posted Mon Aug 3 2009 22:52:07 by Superfly
Return Car To Dealership But They Want More Money! posted Thu Jul 2 2009 15:25:36 by Dazed767
Best Way To Move To Europe? posted Wed Mar 18 2009 07:15:50 by Lxa333
Leaving Children In The Car To Die posted Wed Mar 11 2009 19:10:29 by PROSA
Road Trip USA - East To West Or West To East? posted Thu Sep 18 2008 09:10:39 by LNv22
Help A Noob Plan His First Trip To Europe posted Wed Feb 27 2008 18:19:10 by Fly2HMO
Travelers To Europe May Face Fingerprinting posted Tue Feb 12 2008 07:03:02 by Atmx2000
Selling A Car To Carmax posted Sat Aug 22 2009 17:20:03 by Dazed767
7-Year Old Steals Car To Avoid Going To Church posted Mon Aug 3 2009 22:52:07 by Superfly
Return Car To Dealership But They Want More Money! posted Thu Jul 2 2009 15:25:36 by Dazed767
Best Way To Move To Europe? posted Wed Mar 18 2009 07:15:50 by Lxa333
Leaving Children In The Car To Die posted Wed Mar 11 2009 19:10:29 by PROSA
Road Trip USA - East To West Or West To East? posted Thu Sep 18 2008 09:10:39 by LNv22
Help A Noob Plan His First Trip To Europe posted Wed Feb 27 2008 18:19:10 by Fly2HMO