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Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2031 times:

Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

In another sign that not all regions of the nation share in this "boom" economy:

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/17...9.htm?source=rss&channel=ohio_news

Another huge blow to the local economy.

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13033 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

Yea, and how many jobs are they creating at their Mexico plants, which also make engines as does the Ohio plants. Part of this is due to relocation to Mexico and elsewhere with lower labor and ops costs. Part is also due to the increasing use of computer and other technology, increasing productivity and thus not needing as many workers. I would also note that Ford and other companies had far too many facilities, built for another time, and now rationallizing their ops. It is sad so many good jobs are going, but that is a reality that much like the airline industry, was long overdue. Add to that their declining market share, and Ford had no other realistic choice.

User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

I recently got in an argument over another member in another thread about this. I don't care about the Dow going past 13000, unemployment this and that. All those numbers politicians like to boast about cover the entire United States, not the local economy(ies). Just another occurrence to solidify my argument.

User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1981 times:

Ford, like GM has a huge problem that is not easily solved.

They have too many managers managing and making piss poor business decisions.

Ford does not have a problem making cheap cars,they have a problem making Quality cars.
Laying off expereinced people, and hiring cheaper labor in a foreign country is not going to solve this problem.

Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW , Hyundai, all have plants in the US. they do not suffere this quality drain.

Ford needs to change how they do things.
The best thing they could do is fire 90% of the management and hire people to do the job the company is supposed to do.

Build cars.

Until this happens, the midwest car building towns will suffer economically.


The US economy is doing great. However ford and GM are mismanaged corporations that screw a lot of local economies. Unfortunately a lot of those local economies are in the same region.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1962 times:

I hope that some other company will come in and grab the casting plant. Without knowing anything about the plant, it still seems to me that there would be a need for its metal casting capability in other industries as well.


Up, up and away!
User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1945 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 2):
All those numbers politicians like to boast about cover the entire United States, not the local economy(ies). Just another occurrence to solidify my argument.

I assume the politicians you are talking about are campaigning for national offices? Well, of course they are going to be focused on the country as a whole and not on local economies. That's what local jurisdictions are for.

If the economy is poor in your area, citizens there need to support candidates who are in favor of 1) growing a diverse economy that isn't susceptible to specific industry downturns, and 2) attracting businesses through the use of creative incentives and improved infrastructure.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1939 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

Who cares if the jobs are shipped out to Mexico IF the company overall benefits. If the company overall benefits it wil benefit the economy as a whole..

Point being in the big picture - the economic impact of these 1200 families might be far less than the benefit it would bring the company by moving jobs elsewhere. If You benefit the company, you benefit stock holders, who in turn benefit from their investments and weatlth is created that way and you benefit the economy.

Far fetched and heartless.. maybe... But in the end these 1200 families may not "matter" to the countries economy as much as a "healthy" Ford...Make sense?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineSlovacek747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

This is the beauty of Capitalism! Yes I feel bad for the families but this is how things work.. And this has nothing to do with the economy, it has to do with them not being able to say competitive agains foreign brands. If they can't remain competitive then this should happen. An by the way, the ecomony is good, very good. You bone heads need to look at it on a macro level, not a micro one.

Slovacek747


User currently offlineDan2002 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 2055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1903 times:

Quoting Redngold (Reply 4):
I hope that some other company will come in and grab the casting plant. Without knowing anything about the plant, it still seems to me that there would be a need for its metal casting capability in other industries as well.

Doubt it, Ford may take some of the proprietary castings and tooling, etc and ship them to other plants, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of it wound up being cut up and torn down.



A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1878 times:

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 7):
An by the way, the ecomony is good, very good.

Well maybe it's damn skippy where you are, dude, but in our area-and in many areas of the nation-it sucks to high heaven. And when that happens, it isn't the greatest economy of all time, as some ass kissers on here like to proclaim. An all-time great economy doesn't leave huge portions of the nation behind.

So, you can keep chirping on how "good, very good", the economy is, but if 1200 high paying jobs had just left your area, never to return, you'd feel like your region just got reamed over pretty good, wouldn't you. And you wouldn't be preaching to us "boneheads" on how freaking good the economy is.

And, if I sound more than a litte hot at this idiotic crap the above user said, you win the stuffed Mexican auto worker doll.

[Edited 2007-05-10 05:11:48]

User currently offlineSlovacek747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

Them closing down their plant and losing 1200 workers isn't because of the economy FALCON! They are cutting jobs so that they can be competitive and turn a profit. I never said the economy was the best ever...it is very strong though.. not every place is goin to be booming at the same time but on a macro level things are excellent overall. This doesn't mean people won't lose jobs though and I never claimed that.

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1858 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
In another sign that not all regions of the nation share in this "boom" economy:

I have to join in with those that say it isn't the economy. It is because the company in question is still trying to run a pension and union system from the 1930's.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1829 times:

I feel for the workers who are losing their jobs. It must be scary to have a very specific set of skills (auto factory) that are not transferrable to anything else.

However, companies are not charities. They cannot operate without efficiency. As someone mentioned earlier, Ford is a long-standing company that has a huge pension roll. That's a great thing, but if you can't sell cars at a certain price to meet your costs something has to give. Now, executive pay is also one bit of "rightsizing" that could be looked at, but that still wouldn't solve the problem.

Perhaps your city should have tried harder to get Ford to stay. Or court other businesses to set up operations. Or offer some kind of job training program for people to expand their skills into another profession.


User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
So, you can keep chirping on how "good, very good", the economy is, but if 1200 high paying jobs had just left your area, never to return, you'd feel like your region just got reamed over pretty good, wouldn't you. And you wouldn't be preaching to us "boneheads" on how freaking good the economy is.



Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
I have to join in with those that say it isn't the economy. It is because the company in question is still trying to run a pension and union system from the 1930's.



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 12):
I feel for the workers who are losing their jobs. It must be scary to have a very specific set of skills (auto factory) that are not transferrable to anything else.

I also feel for the workers losing their jobs but I can't ignore the fact that this is a matter of these labor groups (referring to the industry as a whole and not just Ford) reaping what they've sown. When times were good for auto workers they received generous compensation and benefits in a secure job - Now that the party is over (after decades of compensation that is disproportionate to their free market value), they are experiencing a disproportionate "crash".

Blame for these circumstances lies as much with Ford as any union. However, in the name of job security and overall company health (i.e. union employee self interest), the auto workers may have been wise to take a greater stake in investments within the Ford company rather than milking every last cent into paycheck compensation.

I don't fault the union employees (or anyone) for seeking as much compensation as possible. However, it's fair to appreciate long term interests in addition to the bottom line paycheck deposit when considering what you are receiving from your employer. A forward thinking union and workforce would realize the vested interest they have in promoting the growth and investment within their company to ensure the best future possible for the company (and all, including union, employees) - It is on this account that so many unions have failed their members over the last few decades. For a parallel closer to my line of work (and the work of many others on these forums), take a look at the cuts that airline pilots and mechancis have experienced in recent years.

In reality, continuing to make subpar products at (globally) noncompetitive wages would not be good for Ford as a whole or its auto worker employees. I make these comments having an uncle who lost his (high paying) job as a foreman at the Norfolk, VA F-150 plant. He has acknowledged all of the problems I mentioned above since beginning his job at Ford. Fortunately, he holds 2 degrees, is well experienced, and has found another job. However, I do realize that many will not be so lucky if they haven't diversified their skill set in order to maintain their value under varying market conditions - This is regrettable and certainly no cause for joy on my part. If something good does come of these job cuts, perhaps it will encourage some people to be more proactive in the management of their careers.

I take no joy in anyone losing their job but, the loss of 1,200 jobs in one city isn't a massive blow to the macro economy (especially if some long term good comes of it).

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

Considering the backlash of September 11, 2001 I am very satisfied (and even a bit proud) of how the country has managed to recover.

Unemployment History:
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/Surv...t_action=wh&graph_name=LN_cpsbref3

Total Employment:
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/Surv...t_action=wh&graph_name=CE_cesbref1

Average Hourly Earnings:
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/Surv...t_action=wh&graph_name=CE_cesbref3

Employment Productivity:
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/Surv...t_action=wh&graph_name=PR_lprbrief

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
In another sign that not all regions of the nation share in this "boom" economy:

Every region will not be growing at the same rate at all (or even most) times. Apart from the usual hot air blown by politicians, what would make you expect otherwise? Don't tell me you take the word of the "best economy in the history of the universe" incumbent politicians at face value - Likewise, don't tell me you actually believe the "we'll soon be standing in bread lines" pitch of challengers. The truth will always be somewhere in the middle - but this doesn't mean that the large majority of our country is not feeling the positive effects of our strong economy.

These job cuts in Cleveland do not mean that the vast majority of regions in the nation aren't doing well. Although not all individuals/cities/regions will share equally in economic growth, this doesn't mean that regions with less impressive economic numbers haven't benefited on the whole from the strong overall economy.



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1807 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

Is Ford closing this plant indicative of a problem with the economy or a problem with Ford?

I guess in your mind it is government's job to keep inefficient, uncompetitive plants open just to preserve the jobs. Didn't someone else try that? Oh yeah, the USSR gave that philosophy a try.

This plant is closing because it cannot compete in the global market place. Ford's managment failed here not the government.


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1804 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

So while overall the economy is doing well, by your reasoning because one poorly managed company that has made a mile long string of mistakes for the last quarter century dumping 1200 unskilled or semi-skilled workers is a sign the economy is actually bad.

You are trying to make a judgement on the big picture by looking at one pixel. In any economy there are winners, and there are losers. Just like in a few years when the economy is in a downturn there will be companies doing really really well, while most will be losing.

A good day in the stock market is a day when there are more winners than losers. For the most part, that is what we have right now- more winners than losers.


User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

If you really want to see a community that COULD have had it bad, consider Hapeville, GA -- home of not only a dying Ford plant, but also Delta's world headquarters. If Delta had gone under or had been absorbed by US Airways, that town would have taken a noticeable hit.

(Mind you, Hapeville "melds" into other ATL-area cities, so people would have migrated to other jobs in the area, but still...it was an interesting thing to consider when DL was in Chapter 11.)


User currently offlineORFflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1796 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
It is because the company in question is still trying to run a pension and union system from the 1930's.

Exactly. We just lost the F150 Assembly plant here in Norfolk, VA. Over 2000 jobs. While it certainly will be felt a little bit, no way that 2000 jobs make, or break the local economy in this area. And 1200 jobs shouldn't put Cleveland in turmoil. If it does, Cleveland has a bunch more problems than Ford closing a plant.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 13):
I also feel for the workers losing their jobs but I can't ignore the fact that this is a matter of these labor groups (referring to the industry as a whole and not just Ford) reaping what they've sown.

 checkmark 

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
This plant is closing because it cannot compete in the global market place. Ford's management failed here not the government.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1793 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
They have too many managers managing

Not true. Ford has cut, and cut and cut their management staff. Just take a look at the Metro Detroit area!

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
Ford does not have a problem making cheap cars,they have a problem making Quality cars.

The quality of Ford and the other American manufacturers has improved greatly, and is on par with their Japanese and european competition. It is no longer a question of quality, but rather the misconception that American cars are the same as they were in the 70's & '80's.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
. It is because the company in question is still trying to run a pension and union system from the 1930's.

Spot on, this is the biggest problem facing Ford, GM and many other "legacy" firms.


User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1765 times:
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Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
They have too many managers managing and making piss poor business decisions.

They may have to many managers, but they also have too many lazy employees. I know several Ford UAW workers and they are the laziest people I ever met. They brag about not going to work, showing up late, drunk, stoned, etc and not being fired. Try to fire a UAW member. By and large most UAW people are great employees who do a great job, but a few bad apples can screw up an entire organization. I usually go to a bar near the Rouge plant on Thursdays and there are several people in there drinking who are clocked in on Ford's time. You have to cure that culture before you can build a quality car and truck.

I worked for Ford doing warranty claims analysis. In 2000 some of our plants in Mexico had lower warranty costs than the US plants.

In Mexico you can afford to hire the best. If you slack off on the job there are 100 people ready to take your job. In Detroit the only way to get hired is if you know somebody. It is almost impossible to get fired. The person who is best for the job may never even get a chance to get hired.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 18):
The quality of Ford and the other American manufacturers has improved greatly, and is on par with their Japanese and european competition. It is no longer a question of quality, but rather the misconception that American cars are the same as they were in the 70's & '80's.

Americans can build great cars. Today's cars are can't even compare to the 70s and 80s models.

Car companies, US ones especially, squeeze suppliers to get every last penny out of a part. For example. Lets say your turn signal switch breaks on your six month old car. That part was probably not my by the company who built the car. It was built by a supplier who at one time may have been part of the company it sells to. People will knock on the car company for building a faulty part, but it was actually the suppliers fault.

I have a friend who worked in warranty parts for Visteon. He specialized in instrument clusters. They saw tons of Ford clusters, but hardly any Honda clusters, some of which were built in the same plant. The Honda clusters had less cost cutting and the quality showed.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 18):
Not true. Ford has cut, and cut and cut their management staff. Just take a look at the Metro Detroit area!

Exactly. Back when I worked for Ford, the white collar guys in my office would love to have had the pay and benefits of the UAW guys. Many of the white collar jobs are really supplier jobs. Many people who "work" at Ford don't really work there. Many thousands in Dearborn really work for TAC, Kelly, EDS, etc. When you don't really work for who you work for and can be fired without cause or notice (yes legal in Michigan for contractors) what real incentive do you have to do a great job. Nearly all of Ford, GM, and Chrysler contractors are in Michigan, because the laws protecting those workers is so weak. For as good as the UAW have it the contractors have it bad. If the UAW wants to grow it should try to organize the contractors.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1759 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
Ford, like GM has a huge problem that is not easily solved.

They have too many managers managing and making piss poor business decisions.

Ford does not have a problem making cheap cars,they have a problem making Quality cars.
Laying off expereinced people, and hiring cheaper labor in a foreign country is not going to solve this problem.

Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW , Hyundai, all have plants in the US. they do not suffere this quality drain.

Ford needs to change how they do things.
The best thing they could do is fire 90% of the management and hire people to do the job the company is supposed to do.

Build cars.

Until this happens, the midwest car building towns will suffer economically.


The US economy is doing great. However ford and GM are mismanaged corporations that screw a lot of local economies. Unfortunately a lot of those local economies are in the same region.

I beg you a pardon, doing great?
Why is the US$ so low and budget deficit running wild?
Cars are hardly hi-tech industry nowadays, in europe Slovakia is one of the top car manufacturer, trying to compete on price
is hardly the thing GM and Ford can do, rather by brand recognition like Lexus.


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1748 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 20):
Why is the US$ so low and budget deficit running wild?

Repeat after me. The US Government favors a weak US$. It makes our exports more attractive and makes imports more expensive.

As for the budget deficit, take a look at an article published just today http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8P1MC7O2&show_article=1. The US fiscal deficit shrank by $100B dollars in the first seven months of the fiscal year (the government's fiscal year starts Oct 1) over the same period in 2005_2006.


User currently offlineSlovacek747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1747 times:

Actually the budget deficit is decreasing by percentage of GDP (not actual money spent) You can't base our economy off of the deficity because the economy is still doing really well overall. There is no proof at this point that our deficit is actually hurting us.. It may in the future but at this point it isn't really having an effect. We just discussed this at school (university level let me remind you) so don't go blowing me out of the water saying im full of $hit.

Thank you,
Slovacek747


User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

Quoting Molykote (Reply 13):

Molykote, I appreciate your very thoughtful response. Unlike other people in this thread, you pretty much nailed it on the spot. I realize that many things add up to this, but still, so many jobs are moving out of the Cleveland area, its pathetic.

To add to this thread, many are saying "Oh, 1200 jobs isn't much." Well, I invite those people to do a quick search of major Job loss in the Cleveland Area. To name a Few in the past (no more than 5 years):

Ford...Loarin assembly plant
Hoover Vacuum (soon to be shut down this fall)
Invacare
LTV (shed off many jobs when it went into bankruptcy, even after the ISG acquisition (now Mittal), many of those jobs were never replaced)
Lorain, Ohio lost many steel jobs not too long ago

Yeah, the list adds up...

The others also say, "oh well there are many new jobs opening up here and there...that often aren't advertised"

Firstly, an $60k/year job down to a $7/hr janitorial job is NOT a replacement
And secondly, 1200 jobs (not counting the others) is a huge job displacement....college and retraining is expensive, so good luck to those who go on to spend major $$ trying to get a new job, let alone, a career.


User currently offlinePiercey From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 2233 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1716 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
Well maybe it's damn skippy where you are, dude, but in our area-and in many areas of the nation-it sucks to high heaven.



Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 10):
They are cutting jobs

 redflag 

I believe those jobs will still be out there. If not by ford's new casting plant, then by a distributer.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 12):
Perhaps your city should have tried harder to get Ford to stay.

Tried that.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 12):
Or court other businesses to set up operations.

HA! In Brook Park?

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 12):
Or offer some kind of job training program for people to expand their skills into another profession.

Listen, that all sounds good on paper, but Brook Park just turned into Broke Park. Anyone working for Brook Park can kiss there job or paycheck good bye.

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
Is Ford closing this plant indicative of a problem with the economy or a problem with Ford?

Both. Yeah, Ford's in the shitter, but have you seen what has happened to CLE after 9/11. Hell, the warning signs were coming before then.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 17):
And 1200 jobs shouldn't put Cleveland in turmoil. If it does, Cleveland has a bunch more problems than Ford closing a plant.

CLE has problems, period. Who this REALLY hurts is Brook Park, as the plants were a HUGE source of tax income for.

Oh, and before someone plays the (insert foreign car company here) is building cars in the US card, go look up the laws on tariffs on foreign autos and tell me if you see a nice convenient loophole.

piercey in CLE  mad 



Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
25 GuitrThree : As usual, you once again use one example of a bad situation to blast Bush. Typical. Typical. Typical. Let's look at the truth. Ford is suffering beca
26 N231YE : What a load of Bullcrap... My father is unionized, and actually cares about the company he works for. So much, he was back-stabbed and f*cked over by
27 Post contains images Piercey : Where did he bash Bush? You haven't driven a Fusion, have you? see: Yeah, he did. And I love that Union region thing. It's all the same union. CLE tr
28 Lincoln : K. On one hand I feel sorry for the affected employees and sorry to hear about 1200+ jobs leaving the local marketplace, but as I recently said in ano
29 GuitrThree : Really? Then explain why non-union plants are building better quality vehicles here in the states.. Nissan, Honda, and Toyota all have employees beat
30 Post contains images N231YE : Ummm...isn't it already been discussed that the big three's quality has improved greatly in the past several years. So much that Consumer Reports has
31 RayChuang : I think within a 4-5 years Ford will essentially be building their European-market models in the USA. That means the next-generation Fiesta, the repla
32 F9Widebody : Doesn't have a huge impact when China keeps the value of the RMB fixed.
33 RJdxer : Ok, but the numbers speak for themselves. Not all regions shared in the boom economy of the '90s either. Probably the last time all sectors of the co
34 Post contains images N231YE : I like your idea. The only problem is that the city of Cleveland is so broke, if they can't afford to extend a current runway a few 1000 feet, I don'
35 RJdxer : They don't have to build the runway right now, mainly becaue they don't even need it, but they need to get that land. Land has been the major source
36 Falcon84 : It isn't here, and that's the point I was making. It is TERRIBLE here. It isn't just Ford, but, as listed, this area has been killed with lost jobs s
37 RichPhitzwell : I feel for the people, but Ford and GM should probably die. Actually more accurately, our government should make it clear that we will not bail them o
38 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : It's no secret manufacturing jobs are disappearing from the US as either A) those jobs are replaced by robots or B) those jobs move to Mexico and oth
39 RJdxer : It's not just Wall Street. You may wish to believe that the middle class is doing worse but the numbers don't support that. Please identify those "ma
40 Falcon84 : Eventually, if all decent wage jobs are gone, no company can turn a profit, if the populace cannot afford to buy it's products.
41 FlyDeltaJets87 : No. That's just it. Those "decent wage" jobs just move from industy to industry as the national and global economy change. Those companies' products
42 L-188 : And that is a major factor. While you can retrofit a building to build new cars more efficently, it isn't going to be as efficent as a new factory. A
43 JCS17 : And commercial and residential starts are still going strong in Dallas... Fuck, when was the last time 1200 jobs were generated in Cleveland? When the
44 Post contains links Dougloid : Henry Ford knew that. Good paying jobs are the best social program for growth and development of community wide wealth there is. Lincoln knew that to
45 Falcon84 : Therein lies the voice of absolute, abject ignorance on a level that is amazing in 2007. There are and have been jobs created in the Cleveland area.
46 FlyDeltaJets87 : Funny that you're telling him he lacks real-world common sense when you can't seem to figure out that the manufacturing side of the economy in the US
47 Falcon84 : Oh, I've figured it out, dude. And those service jobs, on average, pay a hell of a lot less than the industrial jobs; there are fewer benefits. The j
48 Pope : So if each one of these jobs you cite to are private sector employers how is the government responsible either for the job creation or their loss? Go
49 Charlienorth : Gotta agree with Falcon on this one (sorry Falcon)the whole concept of a service economy sounds good,but really how long can we exist flipping burgers
50 Post contains links OU812 : Concur! Once again far left extremists such as Falcon84 & the flamers can only see one dimensionally & only act on emotion, not fact! Please note: Fa
51 RJdxer : Because the service jobs pay what the job is primarily worth as would the industrial jobs if the unions hadn't jacked the wage and benefits to the po
52 Post contains links 777ER : Ford Australia are also in serious trouble. http://www.stuff.co.nz/4058132a1823.html
53 L-188 : I think Reagan explained your towns positions when he said that the difference between a recession and a recession is when your neighbor looses his j
54 Post contains images Falcon84 : Note to Pope: SHOW ME WHERE I SAID IT WAS THE GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSIBILITY. Thank you. I mentioned that this economy, that people like yourself have s
55 BHMBAGLOCK : Back that up with some figures if you really believe it. Don't forget to adjust for the cost of union dues and normalize for the local cost of living
56 Post contains links Pope : Yeah right. You've never blamed loss of jobs on this President. Where to start???? Let's go back to the history books. http://www.airliners.net/discu
57 RJdxer : Perhaps it is the manufacturing job that, in some cases, paid too much. If you talk strictly manufacturing, i.e. cnc machinist, welder, tool and die
58 N231YE : Although these are construction figures (based on what I last remember like 1 year ago, may have changed)...Cleveland Scale: non union ~$18/hour, uni
59 Falcon84 : Pope, stop being so anal. Show me where IN THIS THREAD, where I blamed Mr. Bush, the GOP or the government? You will NOT find it, because I am not bl
60 RJdxer : Which is why education is more key now than ever before. 100 years ago a grade school education could get you by and then some. 50 years ago a high s
61 Falcon84 : On that, we're in 1000% agreement.
62 Post contains links FlyDeltaJets87 : Average hourly wage at Ford is currently over $32/hr, which working standard hours works out to well over $60,000 a year. Draw your own conclusions.
63 NKP S2 : Yep. No, 86% of their workforce is unionized. Blinded by your own bias, and all the "sagacity" of a teenager.
64 Pope : Dude. You asked me to show you where you blamed Bush for job losses and I did precisely that. You can't make one statement in one thread and then ano
65 Falcon84 : Again-for the fourth time, I believe-show me in this thread where I'm blamiing Mr. Bush for this instance? You won't find it. What you're doing is wh
66 Pope : You don't need to imply it, as I've demonstrated, you've come right out and stated so in other threads. Are readers supposed to ignore what you claim
67 767Lover : It sounded like you were, otherwise why did you say this: Whose "asses" are you referring to that are being kissed? Edited for typo[Edited 2007-05-14
68 CasInterest : I beg to differ, the Ford Tourus, and Buick Lasabre being two obvious choices.
69 Post contains images OU812 : Flaming Falcon84, Your inability to address & acknowledge the core issues regarding Michigan's, Ford's & a portion of US manufactures problems is proo
70 CasInterest : I like the US$ low compared ot the Euro, it means that we might not loose all our manufacturing and professional services. A reasonably high dollar i
71 GuitrThree : EXACTLY, 767, and Pope, for that matter... let's also go back and re-read his original post here on the thread: (a) "greatest economic upturn in ages
72 Lincoln : Hey... I take offense to this. Cleveland's economy could be better, but it is not "dying". While there has been an exodus of highly (perhaps over) pa
73 Post contains images ORFflyer : Blinded!!?? Didn't YOU see the figures backed by a source?? Seems conclusive rather than bias doesn't it? Union labor has absolutely played a major p
74 Molykote : The answer is because consumers are, as a group, unwilling to pay the premium required for products produced in the United States (particularly elect
75 OU812 : Nicely done Molykote, This is what many Democratic presidential candidates are pushing for! More unions, & the failed, old European-ish economy. Funn
76 GuitrThree : SAAAAWEEEEETTT.. I used to own some NAD stuff... I got it cheap, it was stolen!!! wait.. before you ask.. It was stolen and recovered later after the
77 NKP S2 : He was talking about WN being mostly non-union. He was/is incorrect. I was/am. But maybe that doesn't square with your bias either then. I know cogni
78 Post contains images ORFflyer : Okay, I'll give you that - I mis-read and applied his "I could be wrong" comment to the other part of his post. You "was/am" what?? Bias maybe, but I
79 767Lover : So, why hasn't Falcon been back to check on his thread? He posted on Anet 8 hours ago, so he's been around....
80 Pope : This is par for the course for him. He posts BS and when he is called to the mat on it, he does two things: (1) he calls anyone who challenges him "p
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