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Fear Mongering For Illegal Immigration  
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1614 times:

Well, at least it isn't, "think of the children" type pandering yet.

Nope, it's "think of the wildlife"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18788333/

Quote:
Immigration fence seen as dead end for wildlife
Activists fear big cats, tortoises will be cut off from water at Rio Grande

For a real giggle, view the slide show of wildlife that will be endangered by a fence.

There's: Trees... moss .... butterflies... lizards... birds.. birds.. and more birds. Oh, and a cat.

It's a wall, not some crazy sci-fi laser barrier. The trees, moss, butterflies, birds, and lizards won't notice. If that Ocelot is half as sneaky as the bobcats I have to deal with, just put a ten inch pipe under the wall and it'll get through just fine.

I would also like to take issue with:

Quote:
In addition, some worry that the barrier --- described in some plans as triple-layer metal fencing --- will damage the tourism industry along the Rio Grande.

NEWSFLASH: No one goes to the border to look at the border!


No, the wall won't solve the illegal immigration problem. But at least it's a start in the right direction. Fear mongering arguments like this are just a red herring to keep us from doing what needs to be done.

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3825 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1603 times:

Show me a 20ft fence and I'll show you a 21ft ladder.


Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineTZ757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2866 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1596 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 1):
Show me a 20ft fence and I'll show you a 21ft ladder.

Show me a 20' fence with lots of electrified barbed wire at the top, I'll show you no illegals.



LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1593 times:

I'll see your ladder and up you a grappling hook and knotted rope.

User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3825 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1589 times:

Show me a 20' fence with lots of electrified barbed wire at the top

I'll show you 40ft deep and 400yd tunnel.



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5104 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1582 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 4):
Show me a 20' fence with lots of electrified barbed wire at the top

I'll show you 40ft deep and 400yd tunnel

So, are you saying we just open up the border to every Tom, Ahmed and Pablo? Walls, fences and barriers do work, along with tough enforcement of the current laws we have on the books.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1573 times:

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 5):
So, are you saying we just open up the border to every Tom, Ahmed and Pablo? Walls, fences and barriers do work, along with tough enforcement of the current laws we have on the books.


What Confucsius is saying is that no matter what border we build, the illegal immigrants will find a way to circumvent it. You sound like a knee-jerk conservative who doesn't read what is presented, but merely looks at a few words and spouts off like a rocket without a guidance system. Whether you are or not is not of any consequence to me. The important thing is: YOU SOUND LIKE ONE.

[Edited 2007-05-22 06:58:46]

User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1564 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 4):
Show me a 20' fence with lots of electrified barbed wire at the top

I'll show you 40ft deep and 400yd tunnel.

Something is better than nothing, eh? A tunnel like that would be a lot easier to control than the open countryside. Making it harder won't make them more tempted to try.


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1560 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 6):
What Confucsius is saying is that no matter what border we build, the illegal immigrants will find a way to circumvent it.

And that's bullshit, by the way. Give me 5 minutes and I'll design you a wall that would prevent all illegal immigrants (of course aside from the ones with technological abilities greater than us of course) from passing over, through, or under it without being physically stopped or detected.

This nation is very capable of securing our borders, especially with the south. We have the technology, ability, and means to do it, but we won't. Our government is useless, composed of scum sucking politicians out to help their image/career rather than their country. Out of being politically correct, we can't even enforce our own laws.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 6):
You sound like a knee-jerk conservative who doesn't read what is presented

And you sound like a knee-jerk liberal who mindlessly buys into the crap of which was presented.




-NWA742


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21129 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 6):
What Confucsius is saying is that no matter what border we build, the illegal immigrants will find a way to circumvent it.

I forgot who it was, but some political figure said something to the effect that it is a very tall order to expect the US Border Patrol to do something that decades of communism could not - defeat the economic laws of supply and demand. I'm inclined to agree.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3825 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1554 times:

What Confucsius is saying is that no matter what border we build, the illegal immigrants will find a way to circumvent it.

Thanks, that's what I meant but I'm always lost for words.  Wink Anyway, desperate people will find desperate means.



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1550 times:

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 8):
And you sound like a knee-jerk liberal who mindlessly buys into the crap of which was presented.

Hey, I am a social liberal (read: Libertarian) when it comes to health care, gay rights (marriage), abortion, euthanasia, death penalty and such things. You have no idea (apparently) what I think about illegal immigration. I hate it. I would go much further than a wall. All I was trying to do was to respond to a member who jumped to a ridiculous conclusion based upon a statement that was obviously misunderstood. You can try to portray me as a knee-jerk liberal, but you are grasping at straws. Meet me in person and let's have a beer and a chat; you'll get it. It appears that all you did was to jump on a conservative bandwagon because I challenged one of your own. Shame, shame, shame. You really need to be more careful about whom you trash.


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1543 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 11):
You have no idea (apparently) what I think about illegal immigration. I hate it. I would go much further than a wall.

If you "hate it" and would go much "further" than a wall............2 questions,

A. What would you do?
B. How can you possess this attitude when you agree with a statement which implies that nothing can be done to stop it?

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 11):
All I was trying to do was to respond to a member who jumped to a ridiculous conclusion based upon a statement that was obviously misunderstood.

Or rather, affront a member who jumped to a conclusion based upon a statement that may have been misunderstood. But whatever.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 11):
It appears that all you did was to jump on a conservative bandwagon because I challenged one of your own.

Conservative bandwagon my ass - I didn't know only conservatives were against illegal immigration, and it's hardly what I'd call a bandwagon.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 11):
Shame, shame, shame. You really need to be more careful about whom you trash

Perhaps you should as well. Fr8Mech may not be a knee-jerk conservative, or conservative at all.




-NWA742


User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1536 times:

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 12):
If you "hate it" and would go much "further" than a wall............2 questions,

A. What would you do?
B. How can you possess this attitude when you agree with a statement which implies that nothing can be done to stop it?

A. Armed sentries on Parapets.
B. Because if I directed it, it would work. But, because our government is running it, it won't. Got it?

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 12):
Or rather, affront a member who jumped to a conclusion based upon a statement that may have been misunderstood. But whatever.

He railed confuscious with no good reason. That's clear. He had an agenda, and obviously didn't read what he had posted.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 12):
Conservative bandwagon my ass - I didn't know only conservatives were against illegal immigration, and it's hardly what I'd call a bandwagon.

Of course this issue encompasses both conservatives and liberals, but why did you rail me for sounding like a knee-jerk liberal, even if I am against illegal immigration?

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 12):
Perhaps you should as well. Fr8Mech may not be a knee-jerk conservative, or conservative at all.

Hell, I don't know, but based on his prior posts, he comes across as a conservative. I have no issue with that, but if he is condescending to someone who makes a statement about illegal immigration, AND MISINTERPRETS AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT, I'm gonna call him out on it.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1532 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 6):
What Confucsius is saying is that no matter what border we build, the illegal immigrants will find a way to circumvent it.

Bad argument, because at the same level you could say that no matter if you take a shower every day, you still have to do it again the next day, so why take a shower?

What you all miss is a good chunk of the reasons WHY they are coming, and why a lot of them will soon disappear. But there are also good reasons why the government will talk, and do nothing about it.

As you all know, many could consider me Hispanic, even though my father was German. My wife is from Mexico. I have a co-worker from Mexico (citizen now) who has plenty of legal and illegal family members here. So what I am about to tell you is from personal knowledge, not something gleaned from whatever SHIT politicians are using for a particular day.

I work in construction, and we are seeing something in California that was not seen even 5 years ago. It is a construction site full of illegals, certainly over 50%, if not more. You have to understand that way prior to this (I celebrate 18 years in the industry soon), it was well known within the industry that not enough people were picking construction as a career. So what you have is a perfect storm.

A housing boom begins, and companies start hiring illegals to do the work. The illegals get paid LESS than a legal worker, but WAY more than illegal laborers. Let's say that a good pay for a fruit picker was $5/hr. In construction, the same man would be paid $20/hr. But if he were legal, he would be paid $60/hr. So in a stupid sense, 'everybody wins'. REMEMBER: I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY LEGAL CONSTRUCTION WORKER WHO COULD NOT GET WORK.

This windfall for illegals bred additional interest for others to come and make a good living. At the same time, illegals started to (gasp!) purchase homes, get loans, etc., essentially creating another economy. And paying some taxes into the local economies.

These people come to the US and most do something first: purchase a Social Security number. This creates another interesting problem. You have about 9 MILLION people paying into a SS account, w/o real hope of ever receiving the benefits. Do we see a conflict now? How much tax money govenment is also getting from illegals. Whether illegals pay more into the system than they take out, that's another question.

These illegals then start to 'feel' more part of the system, witness by the increasing level of overt protests they conduct. I mean, they have houses, money, more 'professional' jobs, etc. And my wife and I sat flabergasted at a simple problem we had. We needed some temporary help at home, and most illegals that were referred to us, would not work for less than $20/hr. WTF? There are professional people in our office who would gladly work for that kind of money, especially since its tax free.

You all must also remember that California has a big problem now because there are not enough people to work the fields, after all, why work there when you can get paid so much more doing other things.

But what happened? The housing bubble burst, and some (for now) of those illegals are now looking for work that they cannot and will not get. The government will duly note that the unemployment rate has not gone up so high, since a lot of the unemployed were not official anyways. And soon you will have plenty of illegals with nothing to do.

What happens then? We'll see.

Jeez, that was my longest post ever. I hope I made some sense.


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1530 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 13):
B. Because if I directed it, it would work. But, because our government is running it, it won't. Got it?

Right - which is basically exactly what I said above. Got it?

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 13):
He railed confuscious with no good reason. That's clear.

He misunderstood his statement. Railed? Hardly.

That's clear.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 13):
He had an agenda

And you didn't when you decided to trash him instead of simply calling out his misunderstanding?

Everybody has agendas.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 13):
why did you rail me for sounding like a knee-jerk liberal, even if I am against illegal immigration?

Originally you didn't sound like you were.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 13):
I have no issue with that, but if he is condescending to someone who makes a statement about illegal immigration, AND MISINTERPRETS AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT, I'm gonna call him out on it.

And instead of eyeing his mistake, you acted conscending to him in return. Kind of defeating your own purpose.



-NWA742


User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1527 times:

Before we even start with the deportation of illegals, first we need to secure the border. You don't mop up a mess a leak has created until you plug the leak.
That is why we need to start funding a large border fence.
Then, split Iraq into 3 countries, and bring the Natl. Guardsmen back, and have them guard the border for their stint instead of fighting in Iraq.
Then start deporting.


User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1525 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):
But if he were legal, he would be paid $60/hr.

All can say is this:

I am well educated, and I paid a great deal of money for it. That a construction worker can make over twice what I make to protect your drinking water is just digusting. All I want to do is to buy a house in the BOS area so my wife-to-be and I can settle down, but I'm not sure we can do it. Maybe I should learn to lean on a shovel, and then I could do it. I say this from experince, having been a project manager for construction in environmentally-sensitive areas.

Am I jaded? HELL YEAH! I can sleep at night for what I do, but I'm not sure where I'm gonna sleep tomorrow night.


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1721 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1491 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 17):
I am well educated, and I paid a great deal of money for it. That a construction worker can make over twice what I make to protect your drinking water is just digusting.

Supply and demand. That's all.

It's the very basis of our economic system which may not be the very best, but has proven to be the most stable so far.

Education in a sense is no different from every other investment, you make a choice based on your perception on what your future profits will be (pay, social recognition, exciting rather than boring or hard work, etc.) but there's no 100% guarantee that everything will go according to your predictions.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13815 posts, RR: 63
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1456 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 6):
What Confucsius is saying is that no matter what border we build, the illegal immigrants will find a way to circumvent it.



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 8):
And that's bullshit, by the way. Give me 5 minutes and I'll design you a wall that would prevent all illegal immigrants (of course aside from the ones with technological abilities greater than us of course) from passing over, through, or under it without being physically stopped or detecte

The East Germans built a fortified border, which was prototyped on a military training area and tested by elite soldiers by the Stasi Felix Dzershinski regiment. Still people managed to cross it illegally.

The Israelis are guarding their border 24/7, with obstacles and probably landmines. Still terrorists manage to cross it carrying weapons and explosives.

There exists no 100% proof border.

Jan


User currently offlineTZ757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2866 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1446 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):

There exists no 100% proof border.

Very True.

Many times I use Starship Enterprise personally to use their transporters to move me. My secret weapon.



LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1436 times:

Watching Confuscius, NWA742, TZ757300 and MDorBust go at it was hillarious but very educational. It reminded me of drunks at a bar bragging or threatening the next guy pounding there chest.


I am sure the wall could work. It Worked well in Germany and China.

Should our nation build a wall similar to this?



http://www.tparents.org/Library/Unification/Photos/Uph-1920/Members-BerlinWall.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Greatwall-SA3.jpg/800px-Greatwall-SA3.jpg



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMBMBOS From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1417 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 1):
Fear mongering arguments like this are just a red herring to keep us from doing what needs to be done.

Speaking of fear mongering, why does this need to be done?

Oh, are illegals taking our jobs? Are they hurting our economy? Oh, yes, they're changing our culture to reflect something that's terribly non-American. Oh, and, they make it easy for terrorists to blend in and enter our country.

In the grand scheme of selling fear, these arguments are screamed the loudest. And yet I've read very little that supports any of these theoretical fears.

Belive me, I'm open to hearing about it. I'm willing to believe it if it is well supported and reasoned. But mainly I hear fear and loathing.


User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3825 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1407 times:

Oh, are illegals taking our jobs? Are they hurting our economy?

The economy is doing just fine.


It reminded me of drunks at a bar bragging or threatening the next guy pounding there chest.

No, I can't threaten anyone when I'm drunk...i'll be passed out on the bar stool.


Should our nation build a wall similar to this?

Nah, just listen to this wall...




Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1406 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 23):
The economy is doing just fine.

Well someone has to be the scapegoat. We have an election coming up next year.  Wink



Bring back the Concorde
25 Post contains images Confuscius : Well someone has to be the scapegoat. We have an election coming up next year. I'm hoping a just compromise can be worked out on this issue. Hey Super
26 Post contains images MDorBust : That's great fly. Did you miss the part where I haven't participated in the thread since reply #3 because I didn't like the bend the thread took? If
27 QueenofDaSkies : I'm glad you see how stupid the wall idea is.......... how is it a step in the right direction? Why not invest time and money in creating programs th
28 Post contains images Superfly : I did. I am not criticizing your position at all. The early replies to this thread including yours was entertaining. That's all. Are you running for
29 Fr8Mech : Hey slick, I know exactly what he is saying. What I'm saying, and has already been said, is that the border needs to be controlled. Just because they
30 Post contains links AndesSMF : FYI about the 'Bracero Program' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program One highlight: but the agricultural program under various forms survived
31 MDorBust : I have no problem with reforming the current system for obtaining residency and work vistas. The system is broken and needs fixing. However, that's a
32 Maidensgator : I like this: Congress has budgeted $1.2 million for the fences. That allows thirty two cents a foot along the 700 mile length. At that price, you'll b
33 Flyorski : Well Said! Maybe they want to reinforce the existing wall that exists in some residential areas. I think that parts of southern California has a wall
34 Superfly : That way everyone is happy. The anti-immigrant politicians and there supporters can pound there chest and say they have accomplished something and fe
35 Aaron747 : Those are hot-button statements made purely by those either consumed by political posturing or genuine dislike for foreigners. Dead wrong and distrac
36 UAL777 : Not valid. Mexico isn't part of our country nor should it be.
37 L-188 : Steve Austin is going to protect us? Exactly.... Most people here won't remember it but prior to the iraqi invasion I was a proponet of militarizing
38 Cfalk : Oh, man, I almost fell over on that one.
39 Post contains images Superfly : People on the other side of those walls felt the same. Anyhow, it looks like you're going to get your fence put in. As noted above, Congress set asid
40 Post contains images Confuscius : Are you running for office too? Sure, I can run for Ed Jew's seat. I know I don't live in his district but neither does he! BTW, is he your county sup
41 KaiGywer : Exactly. I went through the process and paid my dues. So can they. End of discussion.
42 Metroliner : the who and what now? these animals are clearly fictitious.
43 Post contains images Superfly : You just HAD to remind me, didn't you?!?!!
44 Post contains images Baroque : According to a Telstra ad in Aus for the internet, the Great Wall of China was built by the Emperor Nasi Goreng, er to keep out the rabbits. You have
45 Post contains links MaidensGator : I never heard of them either, but Google has.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Kiskadee http://www.enature.com/flashcard/sho...flash_card.asp?re
46 Metroliner : google is a lie the government wants you to believe...
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