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More GOP Hypocrisy: Drop Dead New Yorkers  
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1672 times:

As though we needed any more? Just one more sick irony of the so-called "pro-life" party. We know where there priorities really lie. As ashamed as I am to admit this, I did vote twice for Bush. But that's only because I saw him (albeit by a very small margin) as the lesser of two Froot-Loops.

Since It's going to come up anyway, I might as just well get it overwith and say that I can't stomach the Dems either, but for different reasons. The GOP is in the crosshairs for this thread. I must have to admit. That after seeing the trail of wreckage the GOP has led this nation down over the last 7 years, I've had a change of heart on a number of issues. If you were to read some of my political views from 2000 and then have the same discussions today, many of my views and answers would be a lot different.

Libertarians. You listening?

"Drop dead New Yorkers."

Great article. Anyone dare to challenge it?

My favorite quote:

Bush, Giuliani and Whitman have built careers around their "patriotic" responses to 9/11/2001.

http://www.counterpunch.org/wasserman05222007.html

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Quoting Matt D (Thread starter):
As ashamed as I am to admit this, I did vote twice for Bush. But that's only because I saw him (albeit by a very small margin) as the lesser of two Froot-Loops.

Agreed.

I'm sickened by the fact that I helped Bush get into office-- but take some solace in the fact that it could've been Kerry. Course, that solace is somewhat mitigated by the fact that I'dve rather voted for a horse in a hoopskirt than either of 'em.

Quoting Matt D (Thread starter):
That after seeing the trail of wreckage the GOP has led this nation down over the last 7 years, I've had a change of heart on a number of issues. If you were to read some of my political views from 2000 and then have the same discussions today, many of my views and answers would be a lot different.

Agreed again. Ya learn.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1647 times:

I'm just curious as to your proposed solution? The evacuation of Manhatten for 6 months?

Delaying the cleanup so that everyone could wear EPA space suits would only ensure that any survivors at Ground Zero would die long before they were found.

If you see someone trapped in a burning car, do you refuse to approach until the fire is put out, or do wou risk your own life and health to go in and pull her out?

If given the choice between a dirty clean-up job and launching a worldwide depression (remember the economy was already in recession in 2001), which choice would the history books approve of?

Just a few thoughts...


User currently offlineCMHSRQ From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 993 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

Sweet, an article almost 6 years after the fact. That day, that week, and the remainder of the year was chaos. You just can't win with people, if rescuers waited until getting the correct equipment then they would have been criticized for waiting to long and possibly letting people die. Reopening the market was a way to help the country get back on it's feet. Don't you remember how you felt on that day? I'm not a fan of Bush either, but come on, this is getting old. This is just another one sided article by a person filled with hate.


Also I like Giuliani, remember he was on his last days as Mayor of NYC. He really cleaned up that city, and he also seems to be a moderate.



The voice of moderation
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 1):
I'm sickened by the fact that I helped Bush get into office-- but take some solace in the fact that it could've been Kerry

Oy.

Well Mr. Tomato Ketchup wouldn't have created a dumb war out of gremlins in a certain Mr Wolfowitz' head.

And I bet that Mrs. Tomato Ketchup who likes her taxes loooooow just like anyone else who bathes in Chanel would have denied her hubby his skiing trips if he had raised taxes.

And, I can bet that Congress would have still been under GOP control.

Well, coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):
If given the choice between a dirty clean-up job and launching a worldwide depression (remember the economy was already in recession in 2001), which choice would the history books approve of?

What a load of hooey.

The economy in 2001 was undergoing an expected correction after the go-go dot.com frenzy of the late 1990s. It was a perfectly natural economic reaction. And given that the Fed would still have been under the control of a certain Mr Greenspan irrespective of who won - Kerry or Bush - your defense of Bush is once again laugheable.


User currently offlineSaturnVRocket From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Welcome to the 2004 presidential debate. Please meet our candidates:




VS.



User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1605 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 4):
The economy in 2001 was undergoing an expected correction after the go-go dot.com frenzy of the late 1990s. It was a perfectly natural economic reaction.

But that "correction" was properly defined as a recession in economic terms. Funny how in the eyes of liberals, the 2001 downturn was a "perfectly natural economic reaction" but when it happened in 1992 it was a recession. Double standard hypocrisy.

Anyway, wasn't the 2001 economy the "worst economy in 40 years?" I though that Kerry and his followers (including many of those on this forum) kept repeating that phrase over and over again during the lead up to the 2004 election. So which is it? Was Bush responsible for the "worst economy in 40 years" or was it a "perfectly natural economic reaction"?

I think the answer is clear. The problem the left has is that the economy is continuing to expand and in a classic "flip flop" they now need to back away from the claims that the President is responsible for the economy because it might just be doing well next November and they don't want to give the GOP or the President any credit for the economy. So now they adopt the "natural economic cycle" argument. I love it.


User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1602 times:

Quoting Matt D (Thread starter):
That after seeing the trail of wreckage the GOP has led this nation down over the last 7 years, I've had a change of heart on a number of issues

Same here. Staggering mistakes, dead soldiers, war mismanagement, ideological policies instead of Country-supporting policies, widening deficit, a shattered image abroad, an uneasy management of emerging hyperpowers. What a waste.

We need brains in the WH.



Take off and live
User currently offlineDoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3414 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1580 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 4):
Well Mr. Tomato Ketchup wouldn't have created a dumb war out of gremlins in a certain Mr Wolfowitz' head.

Do you mean Gore? We awere already learning terms like "IED" during the 2004 race.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineSaturnVRocket From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1550 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 6):
So now they adopt the "natural economic cycle" argument. I love it.

Just like Clinton was responsible for the boom of the 90's  Smile

Quoting Pope (Reply 6):
But that "correction" was properly defined as a recession in economic terms. Funny how in the eyes of liberals, the 2001 downturn was a "perfectly natural economic reaction" but when it happened in 1992 it was a recession. Double standard hypocrisy.

Please stop acting like the right isn't guilty of the EXACT same rhetorical b.s.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1535 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 1):
Course, that solace is somewhat mitigated by the fact that I'dve rather voted for a horse in a hoopskirt than either of 'em.

Nader?  biggrin 

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16878 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1499 times:

A few days after the attack I went into the City to see things first hand, I took the A (or E?) train down from Penn Station to the closest station open near the site, Chambers street. I remember as soon as the doors of the train opened being overwhelmed all the way down in the subway station by a strong electrical, metal, something burning smell.

The debris removal trucks as they exited the site on West Street were hosed off by the National Guard, yet still there were plumes of dust and debris following these trucks all the way to Staten Island. I remember picking up pieces of what I think was dry wall laying in the street near the Elementary school off Hudson street in Tri-beca.

I walked about two blocks to the National Guard perimeter, I felt being two blocks from the burning hulk of the former Customs House that I was breathing in some really nasty stuff. I can only imagine what toxins the people who were on the site day after day took into their bodies, the next 5-10 years are going to be critical as this is probably when the real scale of the health situation amongst the thousands of workers who worked day after day there will become evident.

My Uncle who worked for Verizon worked in and around the site for Months after the attack restoring the fiber optic lines that were destroyed, he earned so much overtime as did the other workers down there he retired that Winter (Pensions based on final years salaries).

What ever it costs, what ever it takes. Do what's needed, don't nickle and dime these people.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineFlyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1483 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):
I'm just curious as to your proposed solution? The evacuation of Manhatten for 6 months?

Delaying the cleanup so that everyone could wear EPA space suits would only ensure that any survivors at Ground Zero would die long before they were found.

If you see someone trapped in a burning car, do you refuse to approach until the fire is put out, or do wou risk your own life and health to go in and pull her out?

I think they wanted people to receive the correct equipment once they knew what was in the air, they could have over say one week gotten all rescue personal the correct equipment. This article is talking about not even getting them equipment over several months. They could have run the stock market from some place other than Manhatten.

The article does however sound angry, I wonder if the author lost family, or co-workers who where at ground zero.



"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1467 times:

Quoting SaturnVRocket (Reply 9):
Please stop acting like the right isn't guilty of the EXACT same rhetorical b.s.

I challenge you to find a single instance where I've blamed the condition of the economy on this or any other President. I've repeatedly stated that the best thing government can do at every level is stay out of the way.


User currently offlineSaturnVRocket From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1447 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 13):

I challenge you to find a single instance where I've blamed the condition of the economy on this or any other President. I've repeatedly stated that the best thing government can do at every level is stay out of the way.

Sorry, I didn't say you specifically. I mean you hear the right and left blaming every problem in the world on each other's ineptness. It's quite tiresome, really. Like the dems saying how Clinton balanced the budget and gave our economy the greatest boom it's ever seen... he helped it for sure, but he couldn't have done it without the republican congress' approval. Repubs blaming Clinton for 9/11 and Osama... wow you can go on for ages on what Clinton did to fight terrorism. The list goes on for ever and ever. NOBODY ever takes accountability here. It's always the other party's fault. I can't believe people can seriously make these arguments for every issue under the sun and not stop to think for one second that maybe.... just maybe their party isn't God's gift to humanity and isn't absolutely 100% right 100% of the time. It's hideous.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

There was no doubt that the decision to rush the reopening of the NYSE, other markets, related financial businesses and Federal government agencies in lower Manhattan has had terrible long-term affects on the residents and workers in the area and especially of police, security, recovery and demolition workers. The EPA was directed to intentionally cover up the dangers from the WTC rubble so that those businesses and agencies would at least symbolically open in the neighborhood as there was a critical national and international need to show that Terrorists will not shut down America or destroy our economy.

Several weeks after the attacks, workers were finally ordered to wear protective gear, but of course many workers there didn't use them as it interfered with their ability to work. Of course, there was never the degree of clean up of nearby buildings, including residential buildings that was needed until far too late. There was also the fear that if some businesses or agencies temporarly relocated outside of lower Manhattan, that they may not return or not at full strength.

Yes, the government made horrible decisions, but I doubt any other administation may have done anything much different as to the 'big picture' of the nations economy.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1430 times:

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 3):
Sweet, an article almost 6 years after the fact. That day, that week, and the remainder of the year was chaos. You just can't win with people, if rescuers waited until getting the correct equipment then they would have been criticized for waiting to long and possibly letting people die. Reopening the market was a way to help the country get back on it's feet. Don't you remember how you felt on that day? I'm not a fan of Bush either, but come on, this is getting old. This is just another one sided article by a person filled with hate.

OK, folks, let's remember Katrina. When FEMA screwed the pootch by not having disaster relief supplies properly positioned, it was of course Bush targeting New Orleans for elimination. Can you imagine the vitriol that would have spewed forth had the federal government told rescue workers to stay out of lower Manhattan until a proper survey had been performed, and proper gear deployed and used?

The cited article is a classic case of hindsight is 20/20.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 15):
Yes, the government made horrible decisions,

No, the government made difficult decisions in the heat of the moment. Big difference.


User currently offlineT56A15 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1414 times:

The thought of the legions of lawyers marching in after this great effort makes me physically ill. Obviously, this guy has an axe to grind with the administration and even takes time to bash the nuclear power industry in his tirade.

His biggest failing is to totally ignore the spirit of the recovery efforts at the time. This was really the first battle of the war on terror; the intention was to wreck the economy of the United States, first and foremost. I know of several dozen local firefighters and rescue dog teams that aided in the cleanup effort. These guys all knew the risks of the environment in which they were working. To shut down or move the financial district and evacuate everyone in the area would have been the second victory for UBL and his ilk. These heroes would not allow that and some will pay the ultimate sacrifice.

I liken the effort to return New York City to normal to the efforts of those who risked everything to seal the reactor at Chernobyl. To have failed was unacceptable to themselves and their co-workers. So many times in history are examples of the few acting to the benefit of many. The author has no understanding of these sacrifices.

Let's find some way to take care of the health problems these heroes have. Records have to exist to identify the workers that aided in the clean up.
Regards...Dave


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1377 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 6):
So which is it? Was Bush responsible for the "worst economy in 40 years" or was it a "perfectly natural economic reaction"?



Quoting Pope (Reply 6):
So which is it? Was Bush responsible for the "worst economy in 40 years" or was it a "perfectly natural economic reaction"?

I think the answer is clear. The problem the left has is that the economy is continuing to expand and in a classic "flip flop" they now need to back away from the claims that the President is responsible for the economy because it might just be doing well next November and they don't want to give the GOP or the President any credit for the economy. So now they adopt the "natural economic cycle" argument. I love it.

You need to take a lesson in economics (along with lots of other things).

And you need to stop seeing the universe through the lenses of "we love GWB" or "we hate GWB."

The world has existed and will exist irrespective of your darling and hero GWB. And that includes economic cycles that correct for economic oddities. For instance, Bush Sr. got much of the blame for the so-called recession from 1989-1991, but it was in fact, a cyclical delayed reaction to an economic slow-down of the late 80s. When Clinton came to power in January 1993, he was already coasting on an economy that had started to improve in early 1992.

The economy had slowed down come early 2000, underwent a correction between 2000 and 2002, and started to improve, albeit slowly at first.

But this isn't an argument about economics and your thinly-veiled worship-lust for GWB (btw, do you all see in GWB the man you want to be? An anti-intellectual, strutting John Wayne like stud representing some embattled notion of straight white American male-hood? Because there are thousands of other straight white males I can suggest as heroic figures one can look up to. But I digress.)

I raised the economic issue because Cfalk had dramatically asserted that the economy was in the throes of a recession in 2001. I never believed it was in the throes of a classic textbook recession, but a natural and much needed reaction to the absurdity of the infant dotcom expansion of the late 90s.

I also understand that there was a much needed symbolic and economic need to have the markets running. If anything, the country and New Yorkers needed to show the world that we couldn't be crushed by a bunch of beards. And I even understand that after the towers fell, people went rushing in to find any survivors and bodies of victims. But on the 7th day or the 10th day or the 30th day, post 9-11, why weren't these federal agencies doing their jobs? Its all the more surprising because Christine Todd-Whitman (who I like and see as a Republican I would vote for) is viewed as a competent person with a very positive attitude on environmental issues.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1343 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 18):
I raised the economic issue because Cfalk had dramatically asserted that the economy was in the throes of a recession in 2001. I never believed it was in the throes of a classic textbook recession, but a natural and much needed reaction to the absurdity of the infant dotcom expansion of the late 90s.

It was fortunate that in 2001 there was a lot of room to reduce taxes, which were at record-high levels in 2000-2001. The tax cuts that congress passed then made the recession a soft one, and set the stage for further growth.

(BTW, note I said congress passed the tax cuts. The President himself has no direct control over fiscal policy)


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