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Question About The Fmr German Monarchy  
User currently offlineNosedive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7153 times:

My roommate and I were talking about the abolishment of the German monarchy. The monarchy was abolished after the 1st World War, but the Hohenzollern family still has living roots. Sue me, it's a Wiki Article
My question is this, while Basic Law does not recognize his title and assumed position, does Georg Friedrich have any legitimate claims to any government property? I'd imagine he doesn't, but I don't know much about the abolishment of the Kaiser and the transition to the Wiemar Republic. You know, it's gotta suck when you think about it. "If my great grandfather wasn't such a megalomaniac, I'd be living in Schloß Charlottenburg!" Besides preserving the memory of his family, what else does this guy do?

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7139 times:

No, he doesn't have any legitimate claims because he is the ancestor of the last German Kaiser. His family may have some claims because of the expropriation done by the communist in Eastern Germany after WWII. But that a completely different matter.
Wilhelm II. , by the way, resigned after the German republic was proclaimed.

pelican


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7127 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 1):
Wilhelm II. , by the way, resigned after the German republic was proclaimed.

I thought it was the other way around, that Wilhelm II abdicated at the end of the Great War and during the Novemberrevolution in 1918. The Weimar Repbulic wasn't founded until 1919.


User currently offlineQANTASFOREVER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7104 times:

Quoting Nosedive (Thread starter):
Besides preserving the memory of his family, what else does this guy do?

He pursues his own interests. He's a follower of current affairs, and has an interest in history. I met him once, years ago in Monaco. Nice guy.

QFF


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7078 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
I thought it was the other way around, that Wilhelm II abdicated at the end of the Great War and during the Novemberrevolution in 1918. The Weimar Repbulic wasn't founded until 1919.

Well, I never said something else. The Constitution of the Weimar Republic came into effect at the 11th of August 1919. In 1918 Prince Max of Baden (Chancellor by then) declared without consent of Wilhelm II that Wilhelm had resigned at the 9th November. At the same day Philipp Scheidemann (vice chairman of the SPD) declared the German Republic. The next day - November 10th Wilhelm flew to the Netherlands where he officially resigned at the 28th of November 1918.


pelican


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7039 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 4):
Well, I never said something else.

OK, I see your point.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 4):
In 1918 Prince Max of Baden (Chancellor by then) declared without consent of Wilhelm II that Wilhelm had resigned at the 9th November.

Yeah, the way Kaiser Wilhelm was kicked out of the throne is pretty weird, I mean, there hasn't even been a real coup d'état back then. He was basically kicked out of office as if someone had made a vote of no-confidence against him, as if he was a Chancellor himself. Nevertheless, sometimes I wonder what Germany would be if we still had a true monarchy and an Emperor (or at least a King), like until 1918.


User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6088 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7024 times:
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When did Germany become a country? Wasn't it once several other countries? The borders have changed too a bit over the years. Isn't there a part of Poland that was part of Germany before WWI?


My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7017 times:

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 6):
When did Germany become a country? Wasn't it once several other countries? The borders have changed too a bit over the years. Isn't there a part of Poland that was part of Germany before WWI?

Correct. Germany, after the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire of German States (aka the first Empire), was a split group of countries, which were fully united as one nation by Chancellor Otto Fürst von Bismarck and Wilhelm King of Prussia in 1871. There were other German state unions in place before the German Empire was created, but those seem to be more of a lose union, and not a complete union like the 1871 Reich (one of those earlier unions even included Austria). Before its founding, they had a short war against France, before Wilhelm was coronated as the first Emperor of the second German Empire, in which Germany conquered Alsace and Lorraine (and even worse for France, the proclamation of the new German Empire was held in the hall of mirrors of Versailles). Poland was split during that time, one part being in the Russian Empire and the other one being Prussian. Here's a map of the German Empire from 1871:



Poland didn't get its independence until 1919, and even then a part of Poland was still integrated in Prussia, as the border wasn't moved westward towards the Oder-Neisse line until the end of WWII. Here's a map of the Weimar Republic:



User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7009 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 5):

Yeah, the way Kaiser Wilhelm was kicked out of the throne is pretty weird, I mean, there hasn't even been a real coup d'état back then. He was basically kicked out of office as if someone had made a vote of no-confidence against him, as if he was a Chancellor himself. Nevertheless, sometimes I wonder what Germany would be if we still had a true monarchy and an Emperor (or at least a King), like until 1918.

With workers striking and protesting and revolting soldiers it wouldn't have needed much more time ere a violent revolution would have overthrown him. He knew it and so he did not fight for his crown. His forced resignation was an attempt to conserve the monarchy - they hoped that the crown prince would take over, but it was already too late as the events of the 9th November showed.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 7):
There were other German state unions in place before the German Empire was created, but those seem to be more of a lose union, and not a complete union like the 1871 Reich (one of those earlier unions even included Austria).

Until the German war in 1866 all German unions included Austria - not only as just a member but the leading German state.
After 1867 the Norddeutscher Bund (North German union) got a constitution. In 1871 the founding of the second German empire was a mere extension of the Norddeutscher Bund - excluding Austria and the other German parts which belonged to Austria.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 7):
Poland was split during that time, one part being in the Russian Empire and the other one being Prussian.

Sorry but your are totally wrong. Poland was split between Austria, Prussia and Russia in the late 18th century. There was only once an independent Polish state after 1795 - under Napoleon a duchy of Warsaw existed for a brief period between 1807 and 1815.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 7):
Poland didn't get its independence until 1919, and even then a part of Poland was still integrated in Prussia, as the border wasn't moved westward towards the Oder-Neisse line until the end of WWII.

That sounds like those parts were Polish territory occupied by Germany. This was only true for big share of those parts of Prussia which Germany lost to Poland in Versailles. Those parts which belonged to Germany after 1919 were inhabited by Germans for about 1000 years and belonged most of the time to the Holy Roman Empire.
Poland was moved westwards by the allies under Russian pressure. Russian or rather the Soviet Union got the Eastern parts of Poland and Poland the Eastern parts of Germany. So many Pollacks had to move to Eastern Germany were the Germans were forced out.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 5):

OK, I see your point.

I can't help it - the historian is showing...

pelican

[Edited 2007-06-01 22:50:52]

User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6994 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 8):
Sorry but your are totally wrong. Poland was split between Austria, Prussia and Russia in the late 18th century.

I didn't know that part of Poland was located in Austria. I guess it could make sense given that it borders what is today the Czech Republic. But in my statement, I was referring to the time when the second empire was proclaimed in 1871, not when they were briefly independent.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 8):
There was only once an independent Polish state after 1795 - under Napoleon a duchy of Warsaw existed for a brief period between 1807 and 1815.

I didn't know the exact timeframe, but I did know that for a brief time, thre was an independent Poland.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 8):
I can't help it - the historian is showing...

I used to be pretty good in history myself when I was at school. I definitely need to refresh my history knowledge some time.  Wink Still, thanks for the explanations!


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6990 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9):
I didn't know that part of Poland was located in Austria. I guess it could make sense given that it borders what is today the Czech Republic. But in my statement, I was referring to the time when the second empire was proclaimed in 1871, not when they were briefly independent.

Now I understand what you meant! You meant that Poland was already split between Prussia and Russia - I misunderstood you. I thought you wrote that Poland was split between both states in 1871. Sorry, my bad.  embarrassed   cry 

pelican


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6981 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 10):
You meant that Poland was already split between Prussia and Russia

That's correct.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 10):
Sorry, my bad.

Not to worry.  Wink


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6980 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 4):
At the same day Philipp Scheidemann (vice chairman of the SPD) declared the German Republic.

On the same day Karl Liebknecht of the USPD (Unabhaengige sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands, an ultraleftwing faction, which in 1914 split off the social democrat party over arguments if the German Reichstag (parliament) should permit war loans. The party later chaged it's name into Kommunistische partei Deutschlands, KPD) declared the Raeterepublik (Soviet Republic of Germany after Lenin's example) . This lead to the civil war like situations from 9.November 1918 to much of 1919, with basically a three way war between communists, supporters of the democratic republic (like the mainstream socialdemocrats around president Ebert and minister of interior Noske, and rightwings groups, like the Freikorps, independent militia units lead by charismatic former officers and NCOs, many of them monarchist, but some of them supporting an ideology out of which developed later the Nazi party. The Freikorps at first supported the democratic government against the communists, which caused a big rift between the communists and the socialdemocrats.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 7):
Poland was split during that time, one part being in the Russian Empire and the other one being Prussian.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 7):
Poland didn't get its independence until 1919, and even then a part of Poland was still integrated in Prussia, as the border wasn't moved westward towards the Oder-Neisse line until the end of WWII. Here's a map of the Weimar Republic:



Quoting Pelican (Reply 8):
Poland was split during that time, one part being in the Russian Empire and the other one being Prussian.

Sorry but your are totally wrong. Poland was split between Austria, Prussia and Russia in the late 18th century. There was only once an independent Polish state after 1795 - under Napoleon a duchy of Warsaw existed for a brief period between 1807 and 1815.

Look at the map. Southeastern Poland was Austrian (e.g. the area around Krakow).

Interestingly in 1938, when Hitler invaded the Czech Republic (which also came out of the ashes of the Austrian empire), the Polish government wanted to get a slice of the Czech Republic as well.

In East Prussia the area north of the Memel river ( in Russian Neman river) was at the end of WW1 first occupied by French troops pending a decision by the Versailles Conference and the League of Nations on the region, but in 1923 Lithuanian troops invaded the region in the Klaipeda Revolution (there existed a majority of ethnic Lithuanians in the rural areas, but the cities were majority ethnic Germans, my greatgrandfather, who came from there and had to leave in 1923 spoke both German and Lithuanian). The French troops, most of them who were badly motivated in having to continue to act as occupational army five years after the war ended, instead of getting demobilised, were suprised by the attack and surrendered after finding themselves surrounded by Lithuanians. Subsequently the ethnic Germans (who have been living in this region since about 1200) were driven out in an ethnic cleansing.

Jan


User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6088 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6966 times:
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LTU932,

Thanks for the info, great maps! What is difficult for me and most Americans to Imagine is the experience of the people who changed countries without moving during those times when the boarders were changed.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6926 times:

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 13):
What is difficult for me and most Americans to Imagine is the experience of the people who changed countries without moving during those times when the boarders were changed.

Well, it was not quite a common experience in those times. Most Germans were forced to move. Such as my fathers family - they had to move after some years of forced labour from Silesia towards the rest of Germany.
The Poles in Eastern Poland had to move, too after WWII.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
The Freikorps at first supported the democratic government against the communists, which caused a big rift between the communists and the socialdemocrats.

Especially the murder of Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg...

pelican


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6900 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 14):
The Freikorps at first supported the democratic government against the communists, which caused a big rift between the communists and the socialdemocrats.

Especially the murder of Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg...

pelican

This was a result of it. The Social democrat German government didn't really have an army back then and after, the Communist militias made up out of ex-soldiers and mostly sailors occupied the imperial palace and the press quarter in Mitte in Berlin town center, as well as the creation of the Soviet Republic of Bavaria in and around Munich, Noske, the social democrat minister of interior had no other choice than to approach the rightwing Freikorps militias for help.
The Freikorps on the other hand were not democratically minded either, they either wanted a return of the monarchy or a kind of military dictatorship and were extremely violent.
When Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg (two leaders of the communists for the non-Germans on A-net) got captured by them, they didn't hand them over to the government for trial, but killed them on the spot. Don't forget that one of the Freikorps soldiers was a former corporal named Hitler and that the early NSDAP and the SA evolved out of the Freikorps movement, e.g. the founder and leader of the SA was a Captain Roehm, a commander of a Freikorps unit.

Jan


User currently offlineStokes From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6846 times:

A question for our German friends:

What part of the Weimar government pushed the covert military cooperation with the Soviets in the 1920's (mostly training and hardware development in the USSR)? Specifically, was it mainline social democrats or Freikorps-friendly military types? Were the German communists kept in the dark?

You can probably see where I'm going with my research here...

Thanks


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6829 times:

Quoting Stokes (Reply 16):
What part of the Weimar government pushed the covert military cooperation with the Soviets in the 1920's (mostly training and hardware development in the USSR)?

Neither. It was the Reichswehr high command, which acted independently during most of the Weimar period ("A state within the state").

Jan


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6819 times:

Quoting Stokes (Reply 16):
What part of the Weimar government pushed the covert military cooperation with the Soviets in the 1920's (mostly training and hardware development in the USSR)? Specifically, was it mainline social democrats or Freikorps-friendly military types? Were the German communists kept in the dark?

The social-democrats were hesitant towards the military cooperation between Germany and Soviet Russia while the central right democrats were the strongest supporter on the political level. The right wing nationalists opposed it.
Just google for information about the treaty of Rapallo.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 17):
Neither. It was the Reichswehr high command, which acted independently during most of the Weimar period ("A state within the state").

While the Reichswehr high command were the driving force behind the cooperation the governments new what happened and supported it. The of the treaty of Rapallo with its military annex is clearly a political agreement between both governments which was conceived by the liberal foreign minister Rathenau

pelican

[Edited 2007-06-04 20:01:17]

User currently offlineStokes From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6804 times:

Thanks.

As I recall, Rathenau was assassinated by Freikorps types. Any connection between this act and Rapallo, i.e., was there more than political or racial thuggery at work here?

Best.


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