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How Much Income? How To Use It?  
User currently offlineBezoar From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 807 posts, RR: 8
Posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2293 times:

Our backgrounds and present situations are quite diverse. However, the fact that each of us are contributing our comments on the internet places us all in a rather privileged position. I hope we all appreciate that fact.

I presume that within most, if not all, societies there's been a redistribution of wealth from those who have to those don't to greater or lesser degrees. I live in a society that mostly rewards productivity and faithfulness, but is increasingly burdened by those on welfare.

I will say that I think that what bothers us so much about money is not the degree of wealth, but a matter of perceived greed.

Rather than front-loading this with too many of my own comments, I'll throw out these questions:

- Do you think it's fair that some people are more wealthy than others? If so, should there be a limit to one's wealth?

- Should it be mandatory that the wealthy give to the poor? If so, how much wealth may one retain for themselves? Are there restrictions on what one can do with their wealth?


"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2291 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):

- Do you think it's fair that some people are more wealthy than others? If so, should there be a limit to one's wealth?

No.

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
Should it be mandatory that the wealthy give to the poor? If so, how much wealth may one retain for themselves? Are there restrictions on what one can do with their wealth?

No, everyone makes there life what they want.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineUnknownUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2286 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
- Do you think it's fair that some people are more wealthy than others? If so, should there be a limit to one's wealth?

- Should it be mandatory that the wealthy give to the poor? If so, how much wealth may one retain for themselves? Are there restrictions on what one can do with their wealth?

I believe we call that communism... and fuck no, if I work hard and build an empire, some bum is not getting a piece of it.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
- Do you think it's fair that some people are more wealthy than others?

Absolutely fair.

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
If so, should there be a limit to one's wealth?

No

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
- Should it be mandatory that the wealthy give to the poor?

No. Charity cannot be dictated, otherwise it becomes coercive theft.

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
If so, how much wealth may one retain for themselves? Are there restrictions on what one can do with their wealth?

A person may retain as much wealth for himself as he desires. There should be NO restrictions on what a person can do with his wealth.


Freedom and prosperity are founded upon respect for private property rights. This includes respect on the individual level (no stealing, no committing murder [which is disrepecting the ultimate property right, which is your right to your own body], no slavery [again, disrespecting your right to your own body and freedom thereof]) and on the collective level through government. Voting to legalize something does not necessarily make it moral or right.

The income tax, for example, is legalized theft and should be abolished.


User currently offlineTZ757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2875 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2266 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 3):

The income tax, for example, is legalized theft and should be abolished.

Eh, to an extent. Its a steal from all, give to all situation. They tax your income, than then what they get back is what they use for your public services. I'm sure if you did away with income tax, your services would not be available since nobody would pay for things other people use, such as roads, infrastructure, etc.



LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently offlineBezoar From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 807 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2264 times:

Quoting UnknownUser (Reply 2):
I believe we call that communism.

I don't think having the wealthy give to the poor is communism. It would be either state-mandated taxation for redistribution programs or through voluntary philanthropy.

Though others can speak more eloquently than I on this, I believe communism in it's ideal state involves everyone essentially sharing all work and wealth equally, and with a minimum of private property.



"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2247 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
- Do you think it's fair that some people are more wealthy than others?

Life isn't fair. Never has been, never will be. There have always been people who are richer than others, and differing degrees of resentment as a result of that inequity. The sad thing is, far too much of that resentment is misdirected.

I'm not bothered that there are people richer than me.

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
If so, should there be a limit to one's wealth?

Reasonable taxation on a graduated scale, yes. Confiscatory action by the government to impose hard income caps, no.

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
- Should it be mandatory that the wealthy give to the poor?



No. I am much more generous in my donations to charity on account of the fact it is MY choice as to who is the recipients of my charitable gifts.

Look at what Bill Gates is doing with his foundation. Look at what the Rockefellers and Carnegies did in the last century. Private philanthropy is always better than government mandated income redistribution.

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
If so, how much wealth may one retain for themselves?



See my answer above about limits to wealth.

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
Are there restrictions on what one can do with their wealth?

Pretty broad question. What exactly do you mean?

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 5):
I don't think having the wealthy give to the poor is communism. It would be either state-mandated taxation for redistribution programs or through voluntary philanthropy.

You are right. What you support isn't communism. It is outright theft.


User currently offlineRichPhitzwell From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2242 times:

Question for the thread starter is:

Why should someone who has taken risk, learned to live lean, discovered new opportunities and has become financially efficient live like the dumbarse who goes out and spends every last penny on the newest toy and therefor has no money?

I earned my money, mature up and learn how to keep yours. (im not directing that statement to the thread starter, just observations of what many people do)


User currently offlineUAL777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1560 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):

- Do you think it's fair that some people are more wealthy than others? If so, should there be a limit to one's wealth?

Not if it is obtained morally and lawfully.

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):

- Should it be mandatory that the wealthy give to the poor? If so, how much wealth may one retain for themselves? Are there restrictions on what one can do with their wealth?

If you EARN your money, it should be yours. I personally think that the amount of taxation at its current levels in the US is obscene!

Unemployment is at 3%. Get a job!



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2224 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
should there be a limit to one's wealth?

I feel there should no limit to one's wealth, however there also should be no ceiling for how much taxes one pays. The more you make the more you should pay.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineBezoar From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 807 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2221 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):Are there restrictions on what one can do with their wealth?
Pretty broad question. What exactly do you mean?

In the thread about the 60-story 'house' in India some were critical about such wealth and how it was spent. I am curious upon what grounds we would base such criticism. I thought it was something that could be discussed in a bit more depth.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
What you support isn't communism.

I'm not sure that I've expressed my opinion quite yet, at least not intentionally. I do live in a capitalistic society, though, and live my life accordingly.

I'm not sure a communistic society would inspire me to any greatness in any way whatsoever.



"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
User currently offlineRichPhitzwell From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2215 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
make the more you should pay.

Bull, that was tried and failed (see UK earlier this century).
Again, why should we all live in poverty or at the same level as someone who is financially irresponsible?
It is hard to become rich, it takes risk. It takes maturity. Most people who are considered rich, worked their way to become rich, not just in the amount they make, but in their lives early on.


User currently offlineTZ757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2875 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2211 times:

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 11):

Again, why should we all live in poverty or at the same level as someone who is financially irresponsible?

I agree

I can almost guess that you aren't in favor of the Welfare system here?



LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently offlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4898 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2209 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
- Do you think it's fair that some people are more wealthy than others? If so, should there be a limit to one's wealth?

Yes, it is absolutely fair. Everyone has equal opportunities to get off their butt and get a job. If teens can bag groceries or wait tables, anyone can. A limit to one's wealth? "Oh, go out and succeed in life, but don't succeed too much!" That's crazy talk! I earned it, I keep it.

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
- Should it be mandatory that the wealthy give to the poor? If so, how much wealth may one retain for themselves? Are there restrictions on what one can do with their wealth?

NO, NO, NO, and RE-NO! If the rich want to give to the poor, great. If they don't, all power to them. The Robin Hood Theory is completely backward and created with no logic. So, you basically steal money from the wealthy (since you don't have their permission) and give it to the poor, who will see it as free money, and think, "Hey, I don't have to work!". Then the rich will start thinking the same, and you end up with less and less money to the point of collapse.



Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offlineRichPhitzwell From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2205 times:

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 12):
I can almost guess that you aren't in favor of the Welfare system here

Actually I am. I do believe that some people need help. I do believe that some people have no way out and for those I will gladly support.

I will not support those that make $5 more then all their bills combined who go out and purchase a $15 DVD or a $200 phone or not invest properly or take the time to learn different tax breaks.

I have seen people who make well over $200,000/yr who have no money and debt up to their eyeballs. Maybe we should redistribute my wealth to those people too since technically they are poor.


User currently offlineBezoar From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 807 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2205 times:

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 7):
Question for the thread starter is:

Why should someone who has taken risk, learned to live lean, discovered new opportunities and has become financially efficient live like the dumbarse who goes out and spends every last penny on the newest toy and therefor has no money?

John Wesley, the man who's ministry resulted in the Methodist branch of Christianity, said (not exactly verbatim): Earn all you can. Save all you can. Give all you can.

I think these were wise words. I believe any wealth we have is a blessing, whether it is by hard work or by 'luck.' I believe we were made to work, and that we should be rewarded accordingly. I also think we are supposed to be good stewards of whatever we have.



"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
User currently offlineGSM763 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2199 times:

And redistribution isnt earning. Just thought Id pop that in there.

User currently offlineRichPhitzwell From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2197 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 15):
John Wesley, the man who's ministry resulted in the Methodist branch of Christianity, said (not exactly verbatim): Earn all you can. Save all you can. Give all you can.

Being I'm agnostic, you lost me completely. Just kidding

I agree, but the problem with redistribution above what is taken in taxes(or paying far greater taxes) is we cant "save all you can". If we cant save all we can then tomorrow I will need your money and I have just become a burden on society.

Anyways, I made my point...I am interested in other perspectives.


User currently offlineBezoar From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 807 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2181 times:

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 17):
what is taken in taxes

I can understand the need for a society to have infrastructure (highways, police and various emergency responders, a defense system, etc, and that there must be a way to pay for those things. How much is enough is an ongoing debate.



"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
User currently offlineTZ757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2875 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2177 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 18):
How much is enough is an ongoing debate.

Enough to provide adequate protection and service. No more, no less. If you need more protection or service, raise taxes a bit. Need less, lower them a bit.



LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2177 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
Do you think it's fair that some people are more wealthy than others?

Life is not fair.

Quoting Bezoar (Thread starter):
Should it be mandatory that the wealthy give to the poor?

No. That's communism, and it doesn't work.




-NWA742


User currently offlineGSM763 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2170 times:

OK Ill step out here and say this.

I think its too bad communism doesnt work.

I think its too bad the only economic system that really works is based on greed and one trying to put himself above everyone else. I know why communism doesnt work, and I know why capitalism does work, and I support what works because its feasible and Im more of a realist than an idealist, but I wish communism worked.

So how would I be described? As a communist because I wish that worked or a capitalist because I know that works but dont like it?


User currently offlineAC773 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2163 times:

I'm not in favor of communism, nor am I in favor of a cowboy philosophy of "what's mine is mine." What I am in favor of (though I know it'll never fly in the US) is a socialist system - tax the people more, but give them more in the form of social programs and institutions that protect and serve the public good. Universal healthcare is a good example of this, and anecdotally, it happens to appeal to the fiscal conservatives in the room as well - giving basic preventitive medical care to those that can't afford it is a hell of a lot less expensive than the current system of only covering ER visits.

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 13):
The Robin Hood Theory is completely backward and created with no logic.

And I suppose trickle-down economics are sound and proven effective?



Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
User currently offlineBAGoldEx From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

Under no circumstance should the wealthy be forced to subsidize the lives of the genetic, intellectual and economic underclasses. These people are after all a tremendous burden to our society and through evolutionary courses, their shortcomings may be eliminated, or more optimistically thinking, rectified. Redistributive measures do nothing except perpetuate the most grave societal flaws which have proven to be a gunshot to the foot for many great societies. In regards to charity, though it should not be compulsory, I strongly support it and have made charity one of my principal financial concerns. When it comes to the government sticking their wretched, polluted fingers into my pockets, I am vehemently opposed to whatever they want to do with my money.

User currently offlineRichPhitzwell From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

I do think the basic problem lies with this question:

How does a society encourage individual business to increase the wages of the population to the point that the individual is not forced to be on welfare?

As stated in other threads:

1. Free trade is wonderfull as long as all parties are playing by the same rules. That is, minimum wage laws, environmental laws, and OSHA laws are met in third world nations.

2. Monopolies can not be allowed. See Walmart

If we upheld Federal minimum standards, the USA would not lose many manufacturing jobs. Walmart one is tricky as they do follow all standards...sorta (see safety, and woman's rights).


25 Post contains images SJCRRPAX : Mostly I think that Lawyers, Doctors, and Pilots should be taxed more and Engineers less.
26 Post contains images RichPhitzwell : And Project managers the least of them all. In fact all PM's should be not be taxed at all rather they should receive public funds for what they do.
27 Braybuddy : Yes, to the first part (some are more ambitious and hard-working than others). No, to the second part. In western democracies this happens through in
28 Asuflyer05 : No. As much as they want. No. I don't want some fat cat corrupt politican telling me what to do with my money or much he thinks I should earn. Why is
29 MD-90 : Hogwash. Private enterprise is more efficient at providing "services" than government ever could be. The "free rider" argument is persuasive on the s
30 AndesSMF : Yes No Because the definition of what 'wealthy' is can change, and while I don't consider ourselves wealthy, others certainly can and do call me so a
31 Post contains images Bezoar : That's rather thoughtful of you! Greed leads people to take for themselves what belongs to others, and to put material things before people. In the U
32 Doona : I agree with John Rawls idea, that while income disparity is nothing to be ashamed of, and is a natural part of society, societies should still work
33 Halls120 : I agree. Just note that John Wesley didn't say it was up to the church or the government to decide how much one should give.
34 DeltaDC9 : Wal-mart is not a monopoly, not even close. You cannot be a monopoly with several competitors. Fairness ends with gradeschool. There is a limit, it i
35 Bezoar : Wow. You are making a rather large leap here. Just so know, you are dead wrong. I'd be curious as to what thought process you arrived at your conclus
36 Airfoilsguy : Only in a facist or socialist state, which seems to be what you covet. It seems to me that the thoufht process that led to these qwuestions was influe
37 DeltaDC9 : I did say "seem". You may very well have just posed an intelectual query, but in the case of polotices, religion, and sexual matters, there is usuall
38 DeltaDC9 : And the use of smartassed remarks is optional, point?
39 RichPhitzwell : So a company comes in with plenty of competition, soon after there is little or no competition...how does that not look like a monopoly?
40 HAWK21M : Personally.I'd be happy if I can make ends meet,Three meals a day & money for Emergencies. regds MEL
41 Post contains images Doona : Not really, have you not seen any previous threads? Smartassed remarks are mandatory. Cheers Mats
42 Post contains images Halls120 :
43 Bezoar : No problem. I am usually careful with my words as I have this ongoing paranoia about how folks take them. I should apologize as well. Perhaps I asked
44 Post contains images Halls120 : Perhaps???? You're kidding, right? It was one of the most obviously loaded threads in recent Anet memory. I suspect you chose to be a family physicia
45 Airfoilsguy : Point being that people who post should take their time and not just throw something out there unedited and not thought out. If more people would do
46 Derico : Yes it's fair. And there should not be a limit on someone's wealth, of course not. However, there should be a limit on someone's poverty. Regardless
47 AC773 : Private companies cannot be left to their own devices because they're in business to make money. It's not their fault, that's the way they were design
48 Bezoar : You are right in that I chose my career path. You are wrong in thinking I resent what my fellow colleague-specialists earn. I suppose you must have m
49 MD-90 : So where does the money to run a public steel mill comes from? In a recession, it means that the government has to accumulate debt. Appearances to th
50 Post contains links Halls120 : Actually, I think a lot of the bannings are intentionally self-inflicted. From what I've read recently, the publicly owned steel mills in Northern Ch
51 DeltaDC9 : Your assertion that there is little or no competition is wrong. Wal-mart competes with Sears/KMart, Meier, Target, all the dollar stores, all the gro
52 Airfoilsguy : This effectively flooding the market with cheap steel putting the private steel mill out of business.[Edited 2007-06-04 18:04:29]
53 GSM763 : I agree soceity would progress at a much slower rate if development wasnt incentivized, thats a main factor contributing to communsims failing, I was
54 IFEMaster : Yes. I've worked damn hard for what I have. No. Communism, anyone? As much as one feels comfortable with. For example, the wife and I give 10% of our
55 Asuflyer05 : That's not greed, that's theft. If one maintains their moral character they can be greedy without stealing. Have you considered dividing the profits
56 Cairo : Where people end up is largely determined by where they start. As long as everyone is given a fair start - meaning good public schools, a reasonably c
57 Bezoar : No, and I don't think that would be appropriate. I believe my years of education & training, subsequent debt, sacrifices (in many ways), liabilities,
58 DeltaDC9 : Great post until that last part. The problem is that both parties at the local level are responsible for the condition of US schools and both parties
59 Post contains links SJCRRPAX : According to my calculations, if the below survey is correct, you make about 3K/year. Or were you just using a poetic licence when you said an Ophtha
60 Mandala499 : Answer #1... After being on top and bottom of the wealth scale within a few years, is it fair? YES! Should there be a limit? No! Answer #2... Should
61 Bezoar : Ha! You led me to do a bit of research as I hadn't done those numbers in a while. A cataract extraction takes about 10 minutes, and the low end charg
62 MD-90 : Capitalism is a system of private property. It can be defined as simply as that.
63 DL021 : Absolutely.....and sometimes it's not. So two questions? 1. What's your point? 2. What's fair in life? No...why limit potential? Apart from inherited
64 767Lover : Fair? Nope. But then again, life isn't fair. Ask those folks who are just plain butt ugly, or have a disability. At least monetary status can improve
65 Bezoar : My 'point' was to generate discussion, and there has been some good discussion. I believe I mentioned in another entry that I was curious about the n
66 MD-90 : I disagree. America has from the very beginning been a very entrepreneurial country, more so than nearly every other in the world. That's because gov
67 FlyKev : OK, here are my opinions. If you earn your money, it is YOUR money. (Taxation is different, and is necessary for a functioning society). Why should th
68 DL021 : Nah.....a goodly chunk of humanity wants to make their own lots in life easier by usurping the rewards for hard work and risk taking. Life can't real
69 Lehpron : If wealth was someone's goal, they should not loose faith in themselves. While I do not understand how people can judge those with/without wealth, it
70 Cairo : You answered your own question: one of the kids turned out ok, the other 4 failed. That's why I said where you start largely determines where you end
71 Allstarflyer : I just want to echo this sentiment (among others here) . . . Although, I do believe it imperative that giving should be part of each individual's life
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