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Why Indy Car Racing Is Better Then F1  
User currently offlineAirSpare From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 589 posts, RR: 6
Posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2761 times:

The highlights of Indy car racing-
1. Faster.
2. Danica http://www.danicaracing.com
3. 220mph wheel to wheel racing
4. 4 Cars side by side down a straight, there is only 1.2 fast lanes entering the turns (yes my Euro friends, an oval track is 4 turns).
5. The lead actually changes during the race.

Why F1 is boring-
1. One car is the race leader and the other cars follow him around until they make a faster pit stop.
2. Bernie
3. F1 has lost it's soul.

How to make F1 better-
1. Rope Bernie to Danica's hood.
2. Add an upside down tunnel (This is the idea of Fast Bikes, the UK magazine that is the only bike rag worth reading, ("More Deathstyle then Lifestyle").
3. Hire Mario Andretti to run it.


Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBA757 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2832 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2757 times:

Quoting AirSpare (Thread starter):
Why F1 is boring-
1. One car is the race leader and the other cars follow him around until they make a faster pit stop.

Do you even watch F1?

I seem to see Hamilton blowing Alonso away at the moment, and his car has a great big number two on it...


User currently offlineAirSpare From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 589 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2753 times:

Quoting BA757 (Reply 1):
Do you even watch F1?

Yah, I admit to being a Ferrari fan.



Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
User currently offlineJamesbuk From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 3968 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Quoting BA757 (Reply 1):
and his car has a great big number two on it.

And thats only because hes alonsos team mate!

Quoting AirSpare (Thread starter):
an oval track is 4 turns).

Fun!! How intersting is that essentially watch cars drive around a square? its exciting watching the cars go through chicanes and hairpins i.e. the mclarens at the swimming pool area in monaco. Where do you get that on you indy cars?

The drivers are actually skilled in F1, they can drive the car around a complex circuit at high speeds, how skilled do you really need to be to drive an oval?
Edit:

Why F1 is good:
1) The drivers racing the circuits with skill
2) The crashes, not too often but when they happen they are spectacular
3) The technological advances - seeing all the little aerodynamic pieces being tested and put on the car through the season
4) The pit babes  Wink
5) The strategys - watching each teams and drivers strategy unfold to see how much they can climb the ladder
6) The racing! Sato taking Alonso yesterday, amazing! when the cars get a good slipstream they dont half make for great overtakes
7) The competition - currently theres a rookie whos winning the championship, how are the other teams going to respond to this?!
8) The atmosphere of the race, 100,000+ people all there to support their driver/team yet everyone remains friends.
9) The noise!! Its bloody unbelievable!

Rgds --James--

[Edited 2007-06-11 22:07:32]


You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
User currently offlineNosedive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2734 times:

near spec cars, near spec engines, debris cautions, Eddie Cheever, Tony George, barely being able to make 33 cars at the Indy 500, overrated drivers at AGR, F1 "rejects" and wannabes, technologically dead.

versus

bi monthly rule changes, limited passing, technologically dying (over technologically overdependent...however you wanna argue it), Bernie and Max, Mark Webber, Ralf Schumacher, and overly expensive tickets and entry fees.


Danica vs. LouHam... think you can gather who I like more  Wink


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3829 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

Try watching the F1 practice sessions and qualifying - they are televised for a reason, and that reason is that the race is not a stand alone event.

Quoting AirSpare (Thread starter):
1. Faster.

F1 used to be faster, people died.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 4):
technologically dying (over technologically overdependent...however you wanna argue it)

This is why there are so many rules limiting technology use - and also the reason why all the cars are now on the same tyres.

Its putting the driver back into the game.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2726 times:

Quoting AirSpare (Thread starter):
Why F1 is boring-
1. One car is the race leader and the other cars follow him around until they make a faster pit stop.
2. Bernie
3. F1 has lost it's soul.

 checkmark 

It's a disease that has been plaguing F1 for years now. It all began the day FIA banned slicks from F1 and started to regulate things more and more. Some of the circuits are also no help either, and many of the rookie drivers just don't know how to drive (except Hamilton, who's having an outstanding rookie season). Gone are the days of real F1 battles, like Michael Schumacher vs Damon Hill and Ayrton Senna vs Alain Prost, and driver skills are slowly vanishing in favour of pit strategies. I recall there was even a time when F1 didn't even have refuelling stops, but only pit stops for tyre changes, but that's also a thing of the past. However, all of these arguments, not even Danica Patrick  Wink , wouldn't convince me to watch more Indy Car than F1.


User currently offlineNosedive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 3):
Where do you get that on you indy cars?

St. Petersburg, Detroit, Watkins Glen, Sears Point (screw the "new" name), and one other race....

Oval races... ever seen JPM and Michael Andretti go at it?



If you ever state Indy car is boring, you really need to watch closer. Better than F1? No. Drivers are better in F1. Cars are quicker (see CART v F1 at Gilles Villeneuve). Worldwide sport. The ultimate proving ground of a driver. etc etc etc


Yeah, I know I'm making some unfair comparisons by brining CART into it, but it's not like CART and the IRL are that far apart in speeds.


User currently offlineBA757 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2832 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 3):
And thats only because hes alonsos team mate!

Well no matter which team he joined, or where his team mate finished the season before, he would have always been that teams number two, even if the likes of Mclaren insist they have no first and second drivers.


User currently offlineAirSpare From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 589 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2706 times:

Oval track racing is popular in Europe, Speedway, Ice to name a few, ok, that is motorcycle racing.

Nice vid Nosedive, thanks for posting it.

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 3):
The pit babes

Better in GP and SBK.

Quoting Moo (Reply 5):
Its putting the driver back into the game.

We have the boring series call IROC, same thing, make it all the driver.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
It all began the day FIA banned slicks from F1

This I can't understand. Such as banning the turbos, come on, it's racing!

If you get a chance, go to Reno and watch the Unlimited class, the rules are basic, it has to be piston engine driven, and it has to have a prop.



Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 9):
This I can't understand.

Nobody can understand that, only Bernie and Max know why. The "official" reason was safety, but if safety on slicks was such a concern, then why didn't FIA (and their bike racing counterpart FIM) ban slicks from ALL competitions, including IRL (which if I'm not mistaken should also be under the jurisdiction of FIA as well), DTM, or even from the 24 Hours Le Mans race?


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
It all began the day FIA banned slicks from F1 and started to regulate things more and more.



Quoting AirSpare (Reply 9):
Such as banning the turbos, come on, it's racing!

There are VERY important reasons why the F1 regulations get more and more severe with each passing year. It's not something to be flippant about.







And possibly the worst motorsport crash, apologies for the cheesy music.



User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3829 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):

Nobody can understand that, only Bernie and Max know why. The "official" reason was safety, but if safety on slicks was such a concern, then why didn't FIA (and their bike racing counterpart FIM) ban slicks from ALL competitions, including IRL (which if I'm not mistaken should also be under the jurisdiction of FIA as well), DTM, or even from the 24 Hours Le Mans race?

The FIA doesnt regulate those motor sports. Here is a list of motor sports the FIA regulate:

* FIA Formula One World Championship
* FIA World Rally Championship
* FIA World Touring Car Championship
* FIA GP2 (formerly Formula 3000) International Championship
* FIA GT Championship
* FIA GT3 European Championship
* CIK-FIA Karting World Championship
* FIA European Touring Car Championship
* FIA European Truck Racing Cup
* FIA Cross-Country Rally World Cup
* FIA European Drag Racing Championship
* FIA European Autocross Championship
* FIA European Rallycross Championship
* FIA Alternative Energies Cup
* FIA European Hill Climb Championship
* FIA International Hill Climb Challenge
* FIA European Hill Climb Cup
* FIA Historic Racing Championships
* FIA Historic Rally Championship
* FIA Historic Regularity Runs
* FIA Historic Hill Climb Championship
* FIA European Rally Cups
* FIA Middle East Rally Championship
* FIA African Rally Championship
* FIA Asia-Pacific Rally Championship
* FIA European Rally Championship
* A1 Grand Prix
* Superleague Formula

(with thanks to Wikipedia and other sources)

There were two reasons why the FIA banned slicks in Formula One - firstly it was a safety issue, because of aquaplaning on the slightest dampness on the track, and secondly it was to reduce the speed of the cars over all - remember that they were banned in the years following Sennas crash, and the rules modifications in that period were mainly to lower the overall speed in as many ways as possible.

Thus you had slicks banned, you had a base board that had to be a certain thickness at the end of the race, certain downforce mechanisms were banned, engine power limited (reduction from V10 to V8).

Another round of pure downforce limitation was enacted in 2005.

Engine life was increased to a minimum number of races, with the belief that teams would have to trade performance for reliability.


User currently offlineNosedive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2630 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 11):

There are VERY important reasons why the F1 regulations get more and more severe with each passing year. It's not something to be flippant about.

Yes, F1 is the only series where anyone has been killed.  redflag  You can widen the rules and still keep it safe. CART uses turbos, for example.
Oh, and why is it that 1 engine per race makes it "safer?"

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 9):

Nice vid Nosedive, thanks for posting it.

I was at that race as a 14yr old kid, still one of the best races I've seen. Few other things to consider:

F1 is becoming boring b/c of limited passing and rule changes (ok, the 2nd one isn't boring, but BS).
LouHam may be a huge lighting bolt for F1 coverage, but attaching it all to one horse is downright stupid. It could be argued that's what happened to F1 when Schumie was winning, and the fans stopped giving a damn. The kid is good, but JV was also a boy wonder. JPM was supposed to beat Schumie. Kimi is struggling. Prost is retired and Senna may he RIP.
IRL is boring b/c its a 3-5 hour long race at times. It's "endurance" racing on a smaller time frame. May the remainders win. Both have their powerhouse teams: McLaren and Ferrari in F1. Penske and AGR in the IRL.
The spilt has screwed US open wheel racing in the states since 1996 and will continue to screw US open wheel racing until 2026... sooner if the France group screws up NASCRAP even more. You want proof that NASCAR is king in the states, look at that video I posted. Further questions: Who is the better driver: Bourdais or Kannan?
Who strives to go from F1 to CART/IRL? Who strives to go from CART/IRL to F1? Where do many "F1 rejects" go?
While F1 is losing its European tradition, IRL has barely any. Yeah Indy, but who gives a damn about Michigan or California 2 years later? Senna and Prost at Japan? You'll still fire up a temper or 2 even now! What tradition the IRL does have is still marred by the split.
Toyota: Can't hack it in F1, but realize the global potential. Couldn't beat Honda in the IRL and leave. Plus, they realize the American potential lies at Daytona 500, not the Indy 500.
A.net: F1 threads and NASCAR threads. The only IRL thread this yr so far was started by me, the day of the Indy 500.
Dominant Car effect in IRL. You can have the good 15 second lead in the IRL.
Stepping stone series: Tony Stewart and Robbie Gordon went from Indy Cars to NASCAR. AJ Allemendinger did the sae, but from CART. Christian Fittipaldi went from F1 to CART to NASCAR Busch...ok bad example.

Bottom lines: They're different forms of racing, but drivers want to go to F1. Global fans watch F1; US Fans watch NASCAR, and the money will follow the fans.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26193 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2622 times:

Quoting Moo (Reply 5):

F1 used to be faster, people died.

What a completely baseless argument. People weren't dying in IRL when Arie Luyendyk pulled 236 mph (381 km/h) at Indy. Reducing speed in an open wheel car isn't going to make things safer because if you crash the wrong way at any speed, particularly at the still very, very fast reduced speeds, you are likely to get seriously hurt or killed.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 7):
Oval races... ever seen JPM and Michael Andretti go at it?

That was an amazing race

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 9):

This I can't understand. Such as banning the turbos, come on, it's racing!

Yeah, I think they really need to go back to the old "run what you brung" mentality that used to dominate racing at every level, whether F1, Indy or NASCRAP. All racing is overly regulated from a raw engine technology point of view. I mean, it has been more than 2 decades since BMW put out 1300 bhp using a 1.5 liter 4 cylinder derived from the 2002. Now that was engine building.

Quoting Moo (Reply 12):
Engine life was increased to a minimum number of races, with the belief that teams would have to trade performance for reliability.

I actually like that, as it creates an incentive to innovate for passenger cars down the road and evens the field between richer and poorer teams.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1186 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2614 times:
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Maybe this is a bit off topic, but I can't stand the engine noises from an F1 race -I wish that the old Canadian-American (Can-Am) Challenge series would be re-surrected. You haven't lived unless you have heard the sound of a normally aspirated 5-litre V8 "singing" when coming towards you and felt the ground-shaking thunder when it passed.

These were closed-wheel cars mostly with a Lola chassis and a huge V8, usually a Chevy-block. Some of the cars were re-built F5000 cars, but some F1 cars were also converted like the Wolf F1 which was driven by Jacques Villeneuve (Gilles brother).

Other noteable drivers were Bruce McLaren, Mark Donohue, Al Unser Jr., Danny Sullivan, George Follmer. Horst Kroll, Jacky Ickx, Bobby Rahal, Mario Andretti and Keke Rosberg to name a few.

Some of the teams were owned or led by Roger Penske, Galles Racing, Carl Haas, Newman-Freeman, Red Roof Inns and even Gordon Lightfoot.

Funny thing though, most of these wonderful machines were conceived in England, just like the Mercedes-McLaren


Scooter

[Edited 2007-06-12 02:27:31]


"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlineDuff44 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 7):
St. Petersburg, Detroit, Watkins Glen, Sears Point (screw the "new" name), and one other race....

Mid-Ohio


Here's how I feel about it:
NASCAR: Spec Car of Tomorrow, "equal-template" engines coming for 2008 or 2009, spec tires
IRL: All Dallara-Hondas on Firestone tires
Champ Car: All Panoz-Cosworth on Bridgestone tires
Formula 1: All the engines are the same configuration, spec tires, very tight aero regulations, spec ECU's in 2008 (maybe 2009?), who knows after that

Sports cars: Petrol, diesel, ethanol, E50; turbo & normally aspirated; various tire manufacturers, including Michelin, Pirelli, Dunlop, Kumho, Yokohama, etc; Strategy and good racing; short races (<2 hrs), long races (24 hrs); prototype sports cars and road-based GT's all on one track at the same time; Audi, Porsche, Acura, Mazda, Corvette, Aston Martin, Panoz, Ferrari, and loads of privateers with their own entries

Can you tell which one I prefer? Big grin



I'll rassle ya for a bowl of bacon!
User currently offlineCaptoveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2580 times:

True F1 fans know the difference between then and than.

People who mess up then, than, along with their, there, they're, etc are typically NASCAR fans, and thus knuckledraggers.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2564 times:

Quoting Captoveur (Reply 17):
True F1 fans know the difference between then and than.

People who mess up then, than, along with their, there, they're, etc are typically NASCAR fans, and thus knuckledraggers.

Nope. They just didn't stay awake in sixth grade. You're a frustrated English major. Probably a tweak or a sparky.


User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8434 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
I recall there was even a time when F1 didn't even have refuelling stops, but only pit stops for tyre changes, but that's also a thing of the past

Fuel stops were introduced to increase the excitement for spectators.

Quoting Moo (Reply 5):
F1 used to be faster, people died.

F1 is faster now. There hasn't been a death of a driver in 13 years. In that 13 years the safety standards have increased dramatically. I still think that they safety standards of IRL and CART are behind those of F1. You only need to look at accidents like Alex Zanardis or Ryan Briscoes fireball a few years back to see that if the tub and fuel tank can be penetrated there is work to be done.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
I actually like that, as it creates an incentive to innovate for passenger cars down the road and evens the field between richer and poorer teams.

Which has failed.

Quoting Moo (Reply 12):
Another round of pure downforce limitation was enacted in 2005.

Which the wind tunnel gurus have worked around.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
(and their bike racing counterpart FIM)

Which would be stupid considering a motorbike tyre only touches the road in a very small area about the size a a 50cent piece.


User currently offlineDuff44 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2557 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 19):
You only need to look at accidents like Alex Zanardis or Ryan Briscoes fireball a few years back to see that if the tub and fuel tank can be penetrated there is work to be done.

You can't build an open-wheeled car that would survive what happened to Zanardi... F1, Indy or otherwise. Any pencil-shaped car like that hit at 210mph (or whatever it was) would have suffered the same, if not worse fate.

I assume the Briscoe incident you're talking about is this:


That fireball is the combination of oil burning off and magnesium wheels coming apart, and not fuel (and if you look carefully, goes out after 4 or 5 seconds). The fuel in IndyCars is alcohol (then methanol), and burns clear. Exactly none of that fire is fuel.

The exact same thing would happen to an F1 car if it hit a fence like that, except the driver would probably be leaving in a bag instead of on a stretcher.



I'll rassle ya for a bowl of bacon!
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