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Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2949 times:

Gaza is drifting rapidly in complete chaos with more than 18 killed within 24 hours..
Open civil war has erupted between Hamas and Fatah supporters,and no hope for an end of war is in sight.
While some say, they just get what they deserve,I have the hopeless ,helpless victims of this madness in my mind.
As usual,the women ,children ,sick and politically un-associated parties pay a heavy price.
I don't take any party for any of the fraction,since the violence comes from both sides.
May wisdom prevail in this miserable strip of land...


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
125 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2944 times:

The more hindsight you have, the more brilliant Ariel Sharon seems to be. He realized that the Palestinians just can't help but want to blow someone up, and as long as Israel was among them, they would be the target. Pull out of Gaza, and they'll start killing each other - an eminantly better solution for the Israelis and pretty much everyone else.

The scary part is if the Palestinians somehow stop fighting amongst themselves and point back on their neighbors...


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

It's always the women and children and old folks, Beaucaire.

They're always the ones who have to pick up the mess the street fighting men make.

In a sense the entire ruckus was predictable, but saying that doesn't make it any less horrifying.

There has to be a fundamental change of heart somewhere, somehow. I don't have a clue as to what that would look like, except that maybe it would be a transformation of the heart similar to that which overtook one Tampa Red, a/k/a Malcolm X shortly before he died or maybe that of Saul on the mean highway to Tarsus. Maybe the women have to say to the street fighting men "Enough! No more of our children will you take."


User currently offlineBEYauty From Lebanon, joined Aug 2005, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

You all seem (as most) to completely miss the point and the roots of the most recent wave of violence in Gaza. Making asinine remarks like

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):
He realized that the Palestinians just can't help but want to blow someone up

does not only show utter contempt against the Palestinians, but shows complete ignorance of the facts. When you have essentially a giant prison with a density of almost 11,000/square mile, occupied by increasingly large population of young people with astronomical unemployment rates, being denied their basic rights of self determination, freedom of movement, inability to conduct normal business and run their economy without restrictions from the occupying Israelis, being under constant threat of violence from the Israeli army ( and previously Jewish settlers all of whom were armed and dangerous), what would you expect? Would you expect that the young generation would grow up to lead a normal lifestyle similar to anyone else living in a normal environment free of the threats that I just listed? Don't you realize that the Palestinians living in Gaza are beyond the boiling point with their equal frustration and hatred of the Palestinian leadership, Arab leadership and of course Israeli, American and Europeans leaderships, that have failed them miserably. I can assure you, that if you were to place any Westerner in a similar situation as those of those living in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, you would see much worse reactions. The sad reality is that Israel's haven't realize that after more than 50 years of occupation that occupation and suppression of the basic rights of Palestinians will never win them piece but will breed more and more violence. So, unless you lived all your life in the hell hole called Gaza, please refrain from making judgements and asinine remarks.


User currently offlineJFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1406 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2877 times:

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
You all seem (as most) to completely miss the point and the roots of the most recent wave of violence in Gaza. Making asinine remarks like



Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
and previously Jewish settlers all of whom were armed and dangerous)

Yeah...really...Every single one? Men women and children?

Pot, meet Kettle.


User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3571 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2875 times:

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):



Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
does not only show utter contempt against the Palestinians, but shows complete ignorance of the facts. When you have essentially a giant prison with a density of almost 11,000/square mile, occupied by increasingly large population of young people with astronomical unemployment rates, being denied their basic rights of self determination, freedom of movement, inability to conduct normal business and run their economy without restrictions from the occupying Israelis, being under constant threat of violence from the Israeli army ( and previously Jewish settlers all of whom were armed and dangerous), what would you expect? Would you expect that the young generation would grow up to lead a normal lifestyle similar to anyone else living in a normal environment free of the threats that I just listed?

I suppose all that would explain why they are now fighting their Lebanese hosts too.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2865 times:

Quoting BEYauty:

You all seem (as most) to completely miss the point and the roots of the most recent wave of violence in Gaza.

Yup.... It's the fault of Israel... even when Israel isn't even there...

Wow, post# 3 for a complete de-rail.

[Edited 2007-06-13 02:11:24]

[Edited 2007-06-13 02:12:29]

User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2860 times:

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
does not only show utter contempt against the Palestinians, but shows complete ignorance of the facts. When you have essentially a giant prison with a density of almost 11,000/square mile, occupied by increasingly large population of young people with astronomical unemployment rates, being denied their basic rights of self determination, freedom of movement, inability to conduct normal business and run their economy without restrictions from the occupying Israelis, being under constant threat of violence from the Israeli army ( and previously Jewish settlers all of whom were armed and dangerous), what would you expect?

With all due respect the violence you're seeing is not a product of external forces but is civil war in Gaza, and it is between Fatah and Hamas. It is violence being committed by Palestinians against Palestinians for reasons that are not at all clear to anyone on the outside. It is a turf war on a grand scale that is worthy of the worst that the Crips and the Bloods have to offer.

My sympathies are not with the street fighting men-they're getting the world they want.

Come to think of it, the way a person lives their life is a statement about the kind of world they want their kids to inherit, isn't it?


User currently offlineScottieprecord From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1363 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2858 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Yup.... It's the fault of Israel... even when Israel isn't even there...

What is wrong with you people? Have you never been exposed to the wisdom of Mel Gibson? It's obvious!!! Jews are the cause of EVERY war! duh... c'mon now.

Seriously though, let 'em fight. Maybe that'll get rid of some of the frustration that BEYauty was talkin about.

-Mike


User currently offlineBEYauty From Lebanon, joined Aug 2005, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2829 times:

Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 8):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Yup.... It's the fault of Israel... even when Israel isn't even there...

What is wrong with you people? Have you never been exposed to the wisdom of Mel Gibson? It's obvious!!! Jews are the cause of EVERY war! duh... c'mon now.

Seriously though, let 'em fight. Maybe that'll get rid of some of the frustration that BEYauty was talkin about.

-Mike



Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 8):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Yup.... It's the fault of Israel... even when Israel isn't even there...

What is wrong with you people? Have you never been exposed to the wisdom of Mel Gibson? It's obvious!!! Jews are the cause of EVERY war! duh... c'mon now.

Seriously though, let 'em fight. Maybe that'll get rid of some of the frustration that BEYauty was talkin about.

-Mike

Nope, it's the fault of Palestinians, as they are all a bunch of deranged maniacs who practice wanton violence for absolutely no reason, and it has nothing to do with anyone or anything else that has happened to them during the past 50 years... No wonder the situation is so hopeless, it's people with this type of thinking that would make peace an almost impossibility.


User currently offlineScottieprecord From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1363 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2826 times:

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 9):
Nope, it's the fault of Palestinians, as they are all a bunch of deranged maniacs who practice wanton violence for absolutely no reason, and it has nothing to do with anyone or anything else that has happened to them during the past 50 years... No wonder the situation is so hopeless, it's people with this type of thinking that would make peace an almost impossibility.

Palestine has had a rough past, no doubt. But when they turn on each other, you can't blame forces that aren't even there any more... Responsibility lies with those pulling the trigger.

-Mike


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2820 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
With all due respect the violence you're seeing is not a product of external forces but is civil war in Gaza, and it is between Fatah and Hamas.

Ummm.... Would someone please get a bucket of cold water?



[Edited 2007-06-13 06:18:14]

User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2812 times:

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
being denied their basic rights of self determination, freedom of movement, inability to conduct normal business and run their economy without restrictions from the occupying Israelis, being under constant threat of violence from the Israeli army ( and previously Jewish settlers all of whom were armed and dangerous),

With all due respect, who denies them their basic rights of self determination? Who curtails their freedom of movement within Gaza? What exactly do the Israelis occupy?


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2788 times:

The Kassam Brigades of Hamas seem to gain more strategic positions within Gaza.Currently about 25 Palestinians killed,several public buildings on fire...it's getting from bad to worse...
At this moment it is relatively irrelevant if Israel is indirectly one of the factors that have led to this disaster.
You can blame whoever you want,but the direct responsibility for the situation the Palestinians are in today lies unfortunately with Yassir Arafat,who has denied on at least two occasions major proposals brought forward ,that would have cemented the creation of an independent state.
My support for the Palestinian cause does not prevent me from opening my eyes and stay unbiased as to the main factors of Palestinian misery.
Yes-Israel has a major fault by consistently squeezing the Palestinian population into confinements that are too small and not self-sustainable.Denying the Palestinian population the access to free trade,decent income,movement,infrastructure and work in Israel is an aggravating factor.
But Palestinian politicians have done damage to their own cause by supporting unjustifiable attacks on Israeli civilians.
Arafat has been trying to out-smart the rest of the world-by being simultaneously corrupt and narrow-minded.
Mustafa Barguthi,speaker of president Abbas,admitted yesterday the very foundations of a potential State of Palestine are in bits and pieces..
Hamas would never have received the number of votes they got,if the conditions of existence in Gaza would have been more humain.That fact ,even analists in Israel don't deny.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5678 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2788 times:

Can't believe the left-wing MEPs are in so severe state of denial that they - given the situation - seriously think about resuming the EU's "Sponsor Your Terrorist" program.

"A growing number of European Parliament members are demanding the European Union recognize the Palestinian unity government and resume direct financial aid payments frozen more than a year ago."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...GEN-EU-Parliament-Palestinians.php


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 10):
forces that aren't even there any more..

-
The Gaza-Territory still has all its borders tightly controlled by the Israeli armed forces, and I here not only mean the ones with Israel-mainland but also the sea-borders and the border towards Egypt. So that "they ARE there" still.
-

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
drifting rapidly in complete chaos

to be to the point, the territory is drifting into the delayed showdown, Arafat did avoid over many years. His successor as PA President now has the job to pull through. I in fact fear that the mess will spill over into the WestBank before long.  Sad
-


Quoting RJpieces (Reply 12):
With all due respect, who denies them their basic rights of self determination? Who curtails their freedom of movement within Gaza? What exactly do the Israelis occupy?

Well, you are quite close to the essence. An Arabic teacher I had for a while, and who had grown up in the Gaza-Territory, told me the blunt truth and that is that the "Gaza-Strip" simply is a big slum, and has been so for decades. The man joined the GUPS who helped him to study in Cairo, and so is happy to have got out from the area.
-

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
the European Union recognize the Palestinian unity government and resume direct financial aid payments frozen more than a year ago

THIS has nothing to do with support terrorists, but with recognizing a democratically elected government. The problem rather is that this "unity government" has just stopped to exist. Those gentlemen apparently are not really up-to-date.


User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 15):
The Gaza-Territory still has all its borders tightly controlled by the Israeli armed forces, and I here not only mean the ones with Israel-mainland but also the sea-borders and the border towards Egypt.

What a brutal, disgusting, slander, mudslinging lie.
There is not a single Israeli soldier on the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. Not a single one.



BEYauty,
You and people like ME AVN FAN represent the Palestinian tragedy in the Gaza Strip. You (and the Palestinian) didn't change diskette almost 2 years ago when 38 years of Israeli occupation ended (and not more than 50 years as you said, don't blame Israel for the years they lived under Egyptian occupation).
Everything else derivatives from that.

The funny thing is that you blame people to shows complete ignorance of the facts



Long live the B747
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2734 times:

Quoting Avi (Reply 16):
on the border between the Gaza Strip

and what about an open Seaport for Gaza, NOT controlled by Israel ? and about the re-opening of Gaza-Airport ?
-
and here a link : www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=8670 and a quote :

.........................................................................................................................................................

the Army will continue to strictly control all Palestinian movement. Below is an update on the status of coordination with Israel.

Rafah Crossing Point

Background: The Rafah crossing point is the only Palestinian access point into Egypt. Although the crossing point is situated more than 6 kilometers away from the border with Israel, Israel maintains complete control over Palestinian movement (both people and goods) at this and every other entry and exit point. Under Israeli orders, an estimated 700 Palestinians per day are allowed to leave the Gaza Strip (to Egypt) and the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza are denied the ability to travel. (An estimated 90 percent of Palestinians in Gaza are routinely denied the ability to travel and Israel currently imposes travel restrictions on Palestinian males aged 16 to 35).

While Israel claims that it is “disengaging” from the Occupied Gaza Strip, it wishes to continue to control the movement of Palestinians in and out of the Occupied Gaza Strip, while removing its presence from the Rafah crossing point and the Philadelphi belt. Accordingly, Israel seeks to move the Rafah crossing point to Kerem Shalom – inside Israel located at the southeast corner of the Gaza Strip, bordering both Egypt and Israel – where it can control all Palestinian movement.

Palestinian Position: Palestinians should be granted complete freedom of movement, without interference by Israel. Accordingly, Palestinians are opposed to the movement of the crossing point to Kerem Shalom as this only serves to cement Israeli control over Palestinians. If Israel truly seeks to “disengage” from the Gaza Strip, it should cease its control over the Occupied Gaza Strip.

Status: Israel continues to insist on the movement of the crossing point to Kerem Shalom despite Palestinian and Egyptian objections to the contrary.

Customs Envelope

Background: The Palestinian Authority and Israel currently maintain a customs arrangement regulating the movement of goods. The Paris Protocol, signed in 1994 and ratified in 1995, created one “customs envelope” in Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territory (“OPT”), whereby goods entering into the envelope are taxed only once and goods within the envelope are not taxed. For example, goods entering the Gaza Strip from Egypt are taxed upon entry but if transported to Israel or to the West Bank are not taxed again. The Paris Protocol also specified which goods could be imported into OPT. Owing to Israel’s control over all border crossings, Israel has maintained control over the Palestinian economy: Palestinian goods are often detained for weeks or months at Israeli crossing points and Israel denies the free import of goods (including those included in the Paris Protocol). Furthermore, Palestinian businesspeople have often resorted to using Israeli intermediaries to import and export goods. Accordingly, tariffs that would normally go to the Palestinian Authority go to Israel via the Israeli intermediary. Nonetheless, the Palestinian economy can immediately benefit from the Protocol’s proper implementation: if Palestinian goods are allowed to move freely and if the Palestinian Authority receives the tariffs that are withheld by Israel international trade could be improved.

Israel wants to move the crossing point to Kerem Shalom. It wants to maintain Israeli customs officers there to ensure that only specified goods are imported into Gaza and thereby control the Palestinian economy. Otherwise, it has threatened to cancel the customs envelope.

Palestinian Position: The movement of the Rafah crossing point to Kerem Shalom will ensure Gaza’s continued dependence on Israel, as Israel would continue to control Gaza’s access to and from Egypt and also continue economic control over the area. Furthermore, the movement of the border crossing to Kerem Shalom is not logical: if Israeli customs officials are present in Kerem Shalom, it casts doubt on Israel’s claim that it will allow the Palestinians to freely operate a seaport, for Israeli official will also need to be present at the seaport, situated well within OPT. Therefore, if Israel wishes to maintain the customs union, it welcomes a third party to ensure smooth functioning and transfer of the Rafah crossing point to Palestinian control post evacuation and to monitor customs arrangements. This move would represent an important step towards Gaza’s successful economic recovery following 38 years of Israeli de-development. For more information on the Gazan economy see: Sara Roy, The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development (1995)

Status: Israel has not yet agreed to the presence of a third party to monitor customs and continues to insist on the movement of the crossing point to Kerem Shalom.
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.......................................................................................................................
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to blame Egypt, who lost the territory to Israel 40 years ago is a bit cheap and a bad excuse.
-
----------------------------------------------------
and things like this : Israel seeks to move the Rafah crossing point to Kerem Shalom – inside Israel located at the southeast corner of the Gaza Strip, bordering both Egypt and Israel – where it can control all Palestinian movement ----- is just dirty tricks applied
-
So much for realities


User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Israel saw the future. We asked for European control (and Israeli monitoring from a distance but with no option to do anything) because we knew that what is going on today will happen (and tomorrow it will slide into Israel). Someone believed it will be possible to prevent it, he was wrong.

If the Palestinians were busy in the past 2 years to build their country (and I'm not talking about the time since the creation of the Palestinian Authority in 1994) maybe something good could come out of this, but they had something else on their mind so …



Long live the B747
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2713 times:

Quoting Avi (Reply 18):
the Palestinians were busy in the past 2 years

-
they in the past 2 years had Hamas in power. Democratically elected, yes, but thanks to a widespread protest vote. That they realize that they are to lose the next elections, they possibly now try to grasp full power .


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 15):
The Gaza-Territory still has all its borders tightly controlled by the Israeli armed forces, and I here not only mean the ones with Israel-mainland but also the sea-borders and the border towards Egypt. So that "they ARE there" still.

Well Gaza does border on Israel, so people like you will have to accept that there will always be an Israeli presence on Gaza's borders...That is 100% legitimate any way you cut it. It is nobody's fault that Gaza is collapsing except the Palestinians themselves (as usual).


User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2693 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 19):
they in the past 2 years had Hamas in power. Democratically elected, yes, but thanks to a widespread protest vote.

Amazing, we agree on something.
There is no question the Fatah brought it on themselves (with no connection to Israel).



Long live the B747
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2658 times:

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
I can assure you, that if you were to place any Westerner in a similar situation as those of those living in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, you would see much worse reactions.

Excellent post BEY. When the details of the border as set out in post 17 are disputed or not understood, there seems not very much room for discussion.

Interpretation of a civil war in Gaza as being a favourable outcome for anyone is extremely short sighted.


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

I would like to see the quartet (US, EU, Russian, UN) step in and solve this problem immediately and with decisive force, funding and other action.

This won't happen because the US is so tied up in Iraq that Bush is practically impotent to do anything else, the EU is more concerned with growing the EU and integrating its new states, and I think Russia is just content to let everyone else in the world kill each other. The UN obviously can't do anything without at least 2 of the other quartet members helping.

I predict this will spread into the West Bank, more attacks on Israel will occur, Israel will bomb and kill some more Palestinians, and in general we will continue the same bloody history that has been going on since Israel was founded at the end of WW2.

Could it be that there are powerful forces that are happy with a perpetual conflict?

Cairo


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2644 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
Gaza does border on Israel,

Gaza has a border with Egypt, and a considerable coastline
-


25 AndesSMF : Unfortunately, as with many hard to die issues, I believe you are correct. After all, for some, the ending of this issue would finally force other pr
26 Baroque : I fear that throw away line/thought might be close to the truth. And as sure as night follows day, analysts in two or three years time will bemoan th
27 Post contains links Beaucaire : If you add today's horrible killing of 10 Lebanese in Beirut -including a prominent politician- you wonder what else this region has to bear in pain,h
28 RJpieces : Honestly, if you are in Israel's position right now, what would you do? The truth of the matter is that there is very little Israel can do to stop a
29 Pope : It only took 3 replies before the US got blamed for this. I'm surprised someone hasn't blamed GWB personally for this. I love it. One minute people a
30 AsstChiefMark : They've been fighting for so long that it's become an instint or habit to them. I swear that peace makes them anxious and jumpy. Maybe fighting has b
31 Cairo : Fine, that means cutting off all support for Israel, which I definitely suggest. I do actually agree with your sentiment - we should be non intervent
32 Travelin man : Totally agree. Are you serious? US troops in GAZA? LOL. Maybe Egypt and some of the immediate Arab neighbors should step in and take care of this! Mu
33 Beaucaire : -Move in to stop the killing -negotiate an immediate cease-fire between the two fractions under Egyptian or Saudi heading -recognize a state of Pales
34 Dougloid : No. The politicians and leaders have had sixty years and counting to get their asses in gear and ALL any of them have managed to do is worsen an alre
35 Post contains links RJpieces : Think again: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/870671.html
36 Beaucaire : " target=_blank>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/....html That's what I meant when I spoke earlier about no perspectives whatsoever - if they blow
37 Pope : I can't believe you actually wrote this. You agree that the US should have nothing to do with the Middle East and also agree that the US should solve
38 Cairo : Simultaneously arguing for intervention and non-intervention is not my technique, such as: My point is that the ideal is non-intervention, and this i
39 Dougloid : " target=_blank>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/....html That doesn't detract from my theory. The women are the only people who haven't had a majo
40 ME AVN FAN : Israel and Egypt very simply canNOT live with a Hamasistan, and therefore in the end will have to get in, in whatever way. The world then will condem
41 SkyTeam777 : It's interesting. Hamas and Haman are almost the same word.
42 ME AVN FAN : I suppose you mean "hamam" ?
43 Beaucaire : In an interview with the Focus-Magazin (Germany ) Professor of Politology Helga Baumgarten ( Birzeit University ) suggested the rapid disintegration o
44 Post contains images Halls120 : Sadly, I believe you might be right. Israel is always going to be blamed for everything that is wrong in the middle east. It's much easier to blame t
45 Post contains images Windshear : Oh I would have said "Haram" Boaz.
46 Beaucaire : There is a distinct difference between occupation and humanitarian-security relevant interventions. Either some people are just incapable to try to u
47 Post contains links PAHS200 : more bad news: "Hamas Forces Overrun Fatah Organization in Gaza" "One witness, Jihad Abu Ayad, said Hamas gunmen were bringing Preventive Security men
48 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - I rather see him in a hamam than in a haram !
49 Emirates773ER : Just in.... Ramallah, West Bank: Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas for the first time Thursday ordered his elite presidential guard to strike back a
50 AndesSMF : There are way too many responses to try to answer them all, so I will only add one thing that has not been spoken of. That is the phrase I live by, an
51 Emirates773ER : Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has dismissed the Hamas-led coalition government and declared a state of emergency. Aides to Mr Abbas sa
52 Tsaord : The US can just send troops there to stop the violence and bring peace and democracy to those poor souls.
53 Mdsh00 : One thing that gets to me are all these other Arab governments sitting on their ass, lamenting the situation and lecturing hate of Israel and the West
54 Travelin man : I'm finding it more and more difficult to care. I know it sounds cold, and I know I should care, but I really don't. The Palestinians, the Iraqis, all
55 L-188 : Thank god you spent the money on that fence. It is definately looking like a good investment now. The only way the US has to intervene is from Fl350.
56 Post contains images Falcon84 : Among the whole Arab world, no doubt. Their penchant for blaming Israel for everything, as we'll see in the quote below, is holding the entire region
57 ME AVN FAN : as good as the Maginot-Line perhaps ? - No, he simply refused a "chance" in which A) the Gaza-Territory was upto 40% Israeli, B) nothing of East-Jeru
58 AndesSMF : The Maginot Line had gaps (Belgium). I don't think the Israeli fence has many at all.
59 Beaucaire : For sure a.netters have a better understanding of the situation in the territories than people, who actual study the political ,social and military e
60 ME AVN FAN : I did/do not refer to petty technicalities, but to the general picture. -
61 Post contains links and images Windshear : I heard Amr Moussa speaking last night on CNN. He spoke on behalf of the Arab League. He condemned Israel for creating the difficult situation by occ
62 Post contains links AndesSMF : Was the Maginot Line breached at any point?...No. It worked. It worked so well that Germany was forced to bypass it by going thru Belgium. Is there s
63 Post contains links and images Windshear : I must watch South Park more often! More Islamic visions for Gaza: Link is Israeli media, so watch out! "It is the end of secularism and heresy in th
64 Post contains images Windshear : Speaking about Chewbacca defenses, Al Jazeera's "review" section on their front page has these stories: "What did we do to deserve this? Palestinian l
65 EA CO AS : No, no...we couldn't possibly. That would take away our most convenient excuse for our hatred toward the Western world. Signed, Most of The Middle Ea
66 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : here a quotation from Winston Churchill """ the Armies must cast away the idea of resisting behind concrete lines or natural obstacles """ from http:
67 Miamiair : Which is an example of civic pride, NOT. Why aren't the muslim countries stepping in and helping out? What about some Saudi peace keepers?
68 Falcon84 : He refused the chance to give the Palestinains some legitimacy. Like I said-and you conveniently pointed out for me-the excuse was that ti wasn't per
69 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - You can only send peacekeepers if they are requested. And Saudi ?? You forget that Hamas IS relying on Saudi support both in financial and in polit
70 Miamiair : On the money Falcon. Their solution will include blaming Israel and/or the US, years of taking money for some cause or anotherand things will be the
71 Falcon84 : You'd find a way to critsize Israel, mark my word. But you are correct in that a Hamas-controlled Palestinian entity is not good for anyone in the re
72 BA : Let's not forget that Israel helped create Hamas back in the 80's as it felt having an opponent to the secular Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO
73 Post contains images QR332 : I don't even see a review section on their front page. Where are you getting this crap from? There are six million refugees. Six million! That is mor
74 Dtwclipper : What? This is a new one to me. Could you please explain this one?
75 Post contains links and images AndesSMF : So let's not single out Israel if other Arab countries have been detrimental to Palestinians as well. Unfortunately, in the history of the world ther
76 ME AVN FAN : if they when in conflict with Hamasaza attack Lebanon and/or Egypt and/or Jordan and/or Syria then yes. But if they simply go into Gaza ........... I
77 Post contains links Baroque : Certainly! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas "However, various sources, among them United Press International,[53] Le Canard enchaîné, Bill Baar,
78 EA CO AS : You're missing the point entirely. Fact of the matter is that the rest of the Islamic world has used the Palestinians as their justification for bein
79 TheCol : I would say there are three parties involved, two of them are Palestinian. As long as Hamas denies Israel's right to exist, nothing will happen. If H
80 Windshear : Sorry for the confusion, I meant Al Jazeera magazine. Boaz.[Edited 2007-06-15 22:01:45]
81 Windshear : So Yassin was just a Mossad agent? Give me a break! Boaz.
82 Post contains images Dtwclipper : When it's reported by RTE then I will believe it, until then it's just another tinfoil hat theory.
83 Post contains images Halls120 :
84 Post contains links BA : I'd me more than happy to direct you to a few articles: Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current
85 AndesSMF : So, the way I read it from your opinion articles, Israel is at fault for the rise of Hamas, and maybe even Islamic Fundamentalism. Did I get it right
86 BA : These are not my articles. I did not write them. I don't think they're squarely blaming Israel for the rise of Hamas and Islamic Fundamentalism, but
87 AndesSMF : Some here, not conservatives, would not trust UPI due to ownership issues. More of a whacko than most imagined. Not really respected in conservative
88 Beaucaire : "The Mossad realized that it had to come up with a new threat to the region, a threat of such magnitude that it would justify whatever action the Moss
89 Post contains images Baroque : I don't suppose you noticed, but I posted a link to a Wiki article. " target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas Aha, you say, Wiki is known to
90 AndesSMF : Did I not reply about the unintended consequences below? I do not know what to say, as it is the first time I have heard of this. And since I also qo
91 ME AVN FAN : - this is rubbish. Why ? Because "the rest of the Islamic world" is NOT angry with western society, even if a few people are. And the Palestinian mat
92 Baroque : You wished to know why some thought that the foundation of Hamas was assisted by Mossad (I nearly reversed that sentence with Hamas founding Mossad!!
93 Alessandro : Things will calm down when the petro-€ are up, no more diamonds are polished, no more IT shekels are made. Too much money in the region, that´s the
94 ME AVN FAN : - any surprise ? "Fatah al-Islam" is the Lebanese equivalent to Hamas, both are financed by Saudi Arabia, and have been so all along.
95 Post contains images Windshear : Me too  Excuse me, but Hamas did not exist until 1987! The whole sentence is none-sense, it's weak and unreliable. This amazes me, how can you comme
96 Post contains links and images Halls120 : Well, things just keep getting better and better for Palestinians, doesn't it? http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFu
97 BA : You should read the rest of the article before jumping to conclusions. The Hamas militant wing may have been founded in 1987, but its origins and the
98 AndesSMF : But it is amusing as well how YOU assume the story to be 100% right also. So you are criticizing your EXACT opposite, because what I have seen from y
99 BA : We all have biases and one should not deny it. We all take a certain point of view whenever it comes to any topic, but that doesn't mean one should b
100 AA777 : Nice bigotry there. Ariel Sharon is brilliant, eh? The man responsible for the deaths of thousands at Sabira and Shatila. But nevermind that, its OK.
101 Falcon84 : Bigotry, or dead-on-the-mark realism?
102 QR332 : The story has been backed by several different sources he has provided. Furthermore, while I doubt this will convince you, my father was telling me t
103 AndesSMF : I have not dismissed the theory (theory being a key word), I was merely pointing out that those who criticize others for dismissing it are not even c
104 QR332 : Why wouldn't they believe it completely? There is plenty to document its true. Again, just ask any Palestinian who was there in the 1970s. Also, just
105 NAV20 : In the old British phrase, "I've never seen anything like it in all me LIFE!" I was brought up as a Christian - and still apply the principles. Which
106 Falcon84 : Please. As Andes said, Sharon didn't try to exterminate the Palestinians. Far from it. Again, that remark shows just how out-of-touch you are to the
107 AA777 : Bigotry. Or how would you feel if everyone said that all Americans know how to do is invade other countries and destroy them....on a whim or if they
108 Miamiair : Why is it that all these Hamas hooligans have to cover their faces? What a bunch of cowards.
109 AA777 : Haha, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If Sharon could have exterminated them without the whole world knowing or saying something a
110 ME AVN FAN : realism ? may be dead-on-the-mark ? negative, completely out of realities - - absolutely NOT to be compared. As much as I at times detested the man,
111 TheCol : See, this is the issue right here. It's time to stop dwelling on the past and address the issue at hand. Blaming Israel, the US, and the UK, isn't goi
112 Falcon84 : Really? Tell me, then, about the civil war raging in Gaza right now? Completely out of reality, eh? Seems to me the man was right on the mark.
113 ME AVN FAN : - No, you said the following about him : - you said that the Palestinians are eager to blow someone up all the time, you did not say that there has b
114 Cfalk : Falcon didn't say it - I said it, and Falcon sees as I do that the Palestinians, in their current stage of development, seem intent on destroying eit
115 ME AVN FAN : that is just generalisation, and basically completely wrong, as they are NOT intent on destroying either others or themselves. And civil wars have no
116 Post contains images Windshear : Ok then... This is what I commented you writing: I read the above as being: Israel helped to create Hamas back in the 80s (Hamas was created in 1987,
117 Windshear : I actually felt something, when Saeb Erekat spoke out on CNN Late edition yesterday. He said that he wept when he saw the masked Hamas fighters step
118 ME AVN FAN : - It is to be hoped from a humanitarian point-of-view, but there may be a discussions in the higher echelons in Israel whether Israel should relieve
119 Post contains links Windshear : I have not heard that argument. But what I can think of as a counter-argument, is the fear of chaotic conditions, but if it is handled with care it c
120 QR332 : You think the Palestinians just enjoy "warring on Israel"? It was an uprising against Israeli occupation - a REACTION to the continued Israeli presen
121 Miamiair : Probably the same reason that a High School student thinks he has the experience to talk down to people that actually know a thing or two about it. M
122 QR332 : if he knew a thing or two about it, he wouldn't be making such statements. And i'm not a high school student, thank you very much. Reading up on an i
123 Miamiair : Then I suggest you view your profile...
124 Alessandro : Latest is that high rank Fatah members has asked Israel to accept them as political refugees, several hundred has applied, so far a few has been grant
125 Baroque : Wonderful. This fight is all beyond me, but some of those hoeing into the Palestinians just wonder what your reactions would be to being occupied for
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