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Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1968 times:

The Polish twins have done it again..
In order to justify Polish opposition to a simplified EEC treaty and increase the weight of Poland,they found the brillant idea to take into consideration the dead Polish during WWII ...
It's time Poland gets rid of those two idiots and votes for responsible political leaders ,that bring forward Poland in the EEC integration!

[Edited 2007-06-21 13:32:48]


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1961 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
It's time Poland gets rid of those two idiots and votes for responsible political leaders ,that bring forward Poland in the EEC integration!

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

It is indeed irritating how these two are trying to derail the further integration of the EU in a blunt, simpleton and megalomaniac strive for personal power. I completely agree with you (and most of the EU, apparently).

Alex


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1949 times:

It's funny, the European Court for Human Rights recently passed a verdict stipulating that Poland change it's very strict abortion-laws, after being taken to the court by a woman who wished to have an abortion after being raped. The comment from the Polish prime minister? "They want us to change our laws, which would be bad."  sarcastic 

It seems odd to me that while trying to gain more influence in the EU, Poland is still quite... non-progressive on issues like gay rigths and abortion, which does not correspond with the mainstream EU. How do they expect to be given more influence and power when they blatantly show that they don't share important values with the other member nations?

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14094 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1942 times:

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
It seems odd to me that while trying to gain more influence in the EU, Poland is still quite... non-progressive on issues like gay rigths and abortion, which does not correspond with the mainstream EU. How do they expect to be given more influence and power when they blatantly show that they don't share important values with the other member nations?

At the moment it looks as if the Polish government is just interested in the financial benefits (EU subsidies etc.) the EU brings, without wanting to share the values. They also try to use a scaremongering tactics, implying constantly that us Germans are just waiting for the right opportunity to invade again. Actually the twins got most support in the backward rural areas of Eastern Poland (which are very conservative, but want to get the EU money). Most people in Western Poland (actually the regions which once belonged to Germany and where you would assume people to be most worried about German claims to get confiscated land back) and the people in the big cities are most easygoing and embrace EU values.

Just a message to the twins: You can't have it both ways, EU subsidies and ultranationalism.

Jan


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
that us Germans are just waiting for the right opportunity to invade again.

Berlusconi's "commandant"-remark comes to mind. Ridiculous.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
are most easygoing and embrace EU values.

I was referring to the twins, but I didn't make that very clear...  embarrassed 

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently onlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5729 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1923 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
At the moment it looks as if the Polish government is just interested in the financial benefits (EU subsidies etc.) the EU brings, without wanting to share the values.


I guess they only follow the example of Ireland... benefiting from EU funds while having medieval-style legislation on abortions.

[Edited 2007-06-21 14:47:02]

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14094 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1906 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 5):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
At the moment it looks as if the Polish government is just interested in the financial benefits (EU subsidies etc.) the EU brings, without wanting to share the values.


I guess they only follow the example of Ireland... benefiting from EU funds while having medieval-style legislation on abortions.

[Edited 2007-06-21 14:47:02]

Actually Ireland has been changing a lot over the last 15 years and will continue to change as the older generations pass away. The newer generations are not as willing as the previous ones to follow the rule of the Catholic church.

Jan


User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1872 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
Actually Ireland has been changing a lot over the last 15 years and will continue to change as the older generations pass away. The newer generations are not as willing as the previous ones to follow the rule of the Catholic church.

Well, you could say the same about Poland, right? Or the only problem ist that EIR is an EU 15 member and PL is a new member?


User currently offlineFlyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1853 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 7):
Well, you could say the same about Poland, right? Or the only problem ist that EIR is an EU 15 member and PL is a new member?

Ireland, albeit dealing with internal problems, has never threatened to veto any EU resolution "just because" neither to stop any further advancement in the talks about the EU constitution due to an ultra-nationalist movement. In this case, I think that there is a massive difference, and not only because PL is a new member.

Alex


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14094 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1848 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 7):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
Actually Ireland has been changing a lot over the last 15 years and will continue to change as the older generations pass away. The newer generations are not as willing as the previous ones to follow the rule of the Catholic church.

Well, you could say the same about Poland, right? Or the only problem ist that EIR is an EU 15 member and PL is a new member?

Not really. Ireland has been enthusiastically participating in the EU, driving EU policies, like the proposed constitution, forward, while the current Polish government has more or less declared on various matters, that while they like EU money, they are not really interested in EU involvement in their country.
Mind, that I'm speaking of the current government, the previous ones were different and I suspect after talking with a lot of Polish people that the current one is not going to stay too long. Basically the only item they are running on is nationalism and a rural conservatism. You still have these in Ireland as well, but Ireland has changed very much from the agrarian country centered in small towns and villages it was 25 years ago into an industrialised country with an increasing immigrant population. Also, while minority parties like fractions of Sinn Fein might still try to use the UK as a perceived enemy, it is definitely not official government policy to get on confrontation with Britain, unlike Poland, where there are open accusations by government members and the press against perceived German-Russian intentions to invade and divide Poland (granted, we have some hardcore Nazi type semilegal groups, but, whilr being quite vocal, they are very much a very small minority).
Then, in Ireland, the Roman Catholic church has been involved in various scandals over the last 50-60 years (child abuse, abuse of people entrusted into their care etc.), which have only become public during the last 10 years and more and more Irish citizens are refusing to let the church dictate their lives. So the influence of the church is already decreasing and will continue to shrink over the next few years. Expect some major changes e.g. in abortion and education to come. Most Irish see themselves as an integral part of Europe. With Poland, while the urban population and those living close to the western border might see themselves as proponents of Europe (due to heavy interaction with e.g. Germany and improved living conditions), there are still many in Eastern, rural Poland, who believe that there is a special destiny for Poland in junction with the more conservative elements of the Catholic church.

Jan

Jan


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4026 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1846 times:

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
Poland is still quite... non-progressive on issues like gay rigths and abortion

So, what is a "progressive" stance on abortion? Free abortion for everyone, everywhere? A clinic in each corner?

Funny, when I think of images of the future (from books, movies, etc.) I think of flying cars and time travel, not liberalized abortion. Or are you that in tune with the extreme-left rhetoric that equates "modern" with "everything I believe in" and "backwards" with "everything someone else believes in"?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 5):
I guess they only follow the example of Ireland... benefiting from EU funds while having medieval-style legislation on abortions.

I don't recall seeing abortion as a pre-condition when signing the treaty to become a part of the EU.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1804 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):

So, what is a "progressive" stance on abortion? Free abortion for everyone, everywhere? A clinic in each corner?

Giving the woman right to choose, is my idea of a progressive stance. While that may not include clinics on every corner, or free abortions for everyone, it includes the right to abortion for all women.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):
Or are you that in tune with the extreme-left rhetoric that equates "modern" with "everything I believe in" and "backwards" with "everything someone else believes in"?

"Modern" in my book means not forcing women to have children against their will. And sheesh, even pro-lifers should be in favour of the womans case against Poland in the ECHR, as her pregnancy was a result of rape. Then again, Portugal is not the most liberal country in this respect either, I guess. I seem to remember an incident with a large boat?

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4026 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1790 times:

Quoting Doona (Reply 11):
"Modern" in my book means not forcing women to have children against their will.

That is not the issue being discussed in most abortions (the Polish rape case notwithstanding) so I guess I was right in your interpretation of modern.

Quoting Doona (Reply 11):
Then again, Portugal is not the most liberal country in this respect either, I guess

And the problem is?

Quoting Doona (Reply 11):
I seem to remember an incident with a large boat?

No incident at all, some boat tried to enter Portuguese waters without prior authorization and it was denied, as simple as that.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

The reason why I posted the thread is the incredible attempt to use killed Poles as argument to increase the voting weight of Poland within the EEC.
This has been targeting obviously Germany as the nazi-country,trying to blackmail out guilt-feelings and historical responsibilities. Comming from a newspaper I still could understand,but as a seriously defended argument by the president of a country,he dis-qualifies himself from any further serious respect for his politics.
German -Polish relations have been bad since ever-and this is not going to improve things within the EEC.
I did not mean to bring up a discussion on wheather Poland,Portugal or Ireland are more or less liberal-that's a different dabate...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently onlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5729 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1756 times:

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 8):
Ireland, albeit dealing with internal problems, has never threatened to veto any EU resolution "just because" neither to stop any further advancement in the talks about the EU constitution

I see... that's the problem, not the abortion. Those pesky Polish... how dare they to challange the blessings and bright federal future that was designed for all of us in the corridors of "Brussels" and we the people will have the opportunity to "vote" on it (as many times as it takes to get the "proper" results)?
I'm sure many in Berlin and Paris in particular find it too hard to swallow that Poland is too big to be easily pacified as Ireland has been, not easily jumping the bandwagon of cheap, euroleftist anti-Americanism, more likely to find common ground on foreign policy issues with the British than with the French, but should have guys thought about that earlier. Better get used to it.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
Ireland has been enthusiastically participating in the EU, driving EU policies, like the proposed constitution, forward, while the current Polish government has more or less declared on various matters, that while they like EU money, they are not really interested in EU involvement in their country.

So anyone who's not a cheerleader for the need for 850 pages of EUrospeak bs compiled into a "constitution" is deemed unEUropean? I'm sorry but that's exactly the same type of GWB style thinking so many European a.netters have been so critical of in the case of the Iraq war ("criticism of war/Bush makes you unAmeican by default").
As far as the money... ok let's reform the EU's sacred cow of bizarre agricultural subsidies. Also when it comes to money EVERY country in the EU puts their interests first and frankly they would be stupid if they wouldn't. Blame the EU for not being able to negotiate the new EU members into even further second class membership than it is now.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
there are still many in Eastern, rural Poland, who believe that there is a special destiny for Poland in junction with the more conservative elements of the Catholic church.

Sort of like those certain Bavarian "elements" who still believe in special destiny of the Third Reich??? To make myself clear... I don't agree with Poland's policy on abortion, homosexuals nor - coming from the most atheist country in Europe - do I understand the strong position of the CC but there are plenty of other places around Europe where the policies are just as retarded so please let's keep things in proper perspective.
And it's utter hypocrisy from you to make a big deal about Kaczynskis verbal statements yet trying to playing down e.g. Sinn Fein. When Poland will have political party which is/has been part of terrorist organization engaged in terrorist activities in fellow EU country let me know.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
here are open accusations by government members and the press against perceived German-Russian intentions to invade and divide Poland

Well, watching Schroeder getting waaay too friendly with Putin made nervous a lot of people, not only in Poland. Believe me.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14094 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 1735 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
here are open accusations by government members and the press against perceived German-Russian intentions to invade and divide Poland

Well, watching Schroeder getting waaay too friendly with Putin made nervous a lot of people, not only in Poland. Believe me.

Schroeder is by now more or less an unperson in Germany. He lost all credit when he became the mouthpiece of Putin. No chance for a political comeback for him.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
there are still many in Eastern, rural Poland, who believe that there is a special destiny for Poland in junction with the more conservative elements of the Catholic church.

Sort of like those certain Bavarian "elements" who still believe in special destiny of the Third Reich???

if you mean the idiots from the "Vertriebenenverband" then sorry, I have to say that, while they have a loud voice, they have virtually no support within the German population. And you could also see during thelast election that a Bavarian CSU politician has no chance of becoming German chancellor.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 1717 times:

Oh well, us Brits weren't so bad bad when we kicked off in the EEC/EU in the past after all?
How did Mitterrand (who probably fancied her) describe Maggie? 'The eyes of Caligula but the lips of Marilyn Monroe.'
She at her handbagging peak was not nearly as problematic for other EU nations than these two are.

Hey, at least that Basil Faulty sketch was funny, these two twins are no laughing matter.
(Though we've had a large influx of hard working Poles to the UK since 2004, it is thought that the later ones, of the very well educated kind, were encouraged to come here due to the current Polish government, one expects some of them might have left due to the persecution of Gays too).

Still, Poland is a democracy, so they won't last forever.


User currently offlineRineanna From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1687 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 5):
I guess they only follow the example of Ireland... benefiting from EU funds while having medieval-style legislation on abortions.


I don't recall seeing abortion as a pre-condition when signing the treaty to become a part of the EU.

Well said. Since when has receiving EU funding been influenced by Abortion legislation?

A referendum has been held as late as 2002 on our 'medievil' abortion legislation. If it indeed had been felt, as you propose, that our abortion legislation was obsolete and in need of change, then the referendum would have passed. The fact of the matter is it failed indicating that the majority of voters were satisfied with the state of the legislation as it is now.

Stating that the legislation is 'medievil' is your opinion, but it is not fact (seeming as the majority of voters in the 2002 referendum felt it is adequate in the modern society).

I'm not attempting to start a pro life/choice debate at all, i'm just trying to point out that the the abortion legislation in question could have been altered in 2002 if the voters felt change was necessary, but it wasn't, so why is it proposed that we shouldn't have received the EU funds because someone outside of Ireland subjectively feels we made the 'wrong' decision in a referendum?


User currently onlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5729 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1676 times:

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 17):
Stating that the legislation is 'medievil' is your opinion

You bet it is.

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 17):
why is it proposed that we shouldn't have received the EU funds

I'm not proposing anything and it definitely wasn't me who was trying to present abortion legislation as an example of country's failure to share EU "values". I was only using Ireland as an example to point out that by far Poland is not the only one.


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1666 times:

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 17):
'medievil'

Nice touch.

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7961 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1662 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
I'm sure many in Berlin and Paris in particular find it too hard to swallow that Poland is too big to be easily pacified as Ireland has been, not easily jumping the bandwagon of cheap, euroleftist anti-Americanism,

Ahem, I wonder which European government stands out as being "cheap, euroleftist" and "anti-American" in your book, and since when parts of the Indian press is likewise "euroleftist" and "anti-American": The Hindu on the Kaczynskis

But I guess the true reason why other Europeans (particularly Germans, but as well as many Poles, I'm sure) are a bit baffled is, that the twins
a) try to (mis-)use fallen Poles to increase the voting weight of Poland
b) receive support from an anti-semitic, fundamentalist Catholic broadcaster, that is Radio Marija
c) wanted Mrs. Merkel to bring an essayist to court who nick-named the twins "potatoes" in a German newspaper.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineRineanna From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1657 times:

Quoting Doona (Reply 19):
Nice touch.

Pardon? I was merely quoting the word medievil from his post.


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1650 times:

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 21):
Pardon? I was merely quoting the word medievil from his post.

Oh, I thought you were making a crack. AFAIK, it's spelled "medieval" and not "medievil". Regional difference in spelling, perhaps.  silly   white 

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14094 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1625 times:

There are several things which currently p%ss me off:

a) the twin's tactics of using a fear mongering tactics, constantlytelling their population if they (the twins) wouldn't be on guard, Germany would just cross the border one day again to reclaim the land which we lost after WW2. While I'm not sure about Putin's intentions and I trust him about as I can throw him, I know that, beside a noisy, but very small minority of ultra-rightwings in Germany, NOBODY wants any adventures. The only way you will have Germany back in Poland (or the Czech Republic btw.) is either through international marriage (it is actually on the rise), or Germans working or studying in Poland or the Czech Republic and moving there, fully ccepting the souvereignity of both the Czech and Polish governments in their respective countries in the post 1945 borders.

b) With the latest expansion of the EU we received a lot of poorer members, who are entiteled to subsidies. On the other hand we have a lot of older members, who also receive subsidies, in some cases for decades (Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, France, etc.). I exclude Ireland in a way, since Ireland has been using the money wisely and IMO will sooner or later be a net contributor instead of a net receiver.
The net contributors can not increase their payments (I know that in the past decades, especially with Genscher as minister of foreign affairs Germany regularly defused conflicts by pulling out the cheque book, but this doesn't work anymore), so the common pot has to be spread wider, this means everybody gets less. Why do you think that countries like France, Spain etc. were so much against an EU expansion to the East? They knew that they would have to share their subsidies with other countries.
Also, the current EU structures (vote by country, not by population) allow it that the receiving countries can basically unilaterally increase subsidies without the paying countries having a say in this matter. This is basically taxation without representation. Also the current set of multilateral treaties allows it that single countries block the whole decision making process for ALL decisions by vetoes to enforce their special interests (e.g. Greece with Cyprus and Poland now concerning the ban of Polish meat in Russia)
We need a basic set of rules about decision making in the EU, which replaces the heap of multilateral treaties and allows for majority decisions instead of concensus.
I think the original constitution as proposed 2 years ago is dead. It is a bureacratic monster. A constitution has to be short and just provide the basic set of rules. It also has to remove power from the appointed set of bureaucrats of the commision currently ruling in Brussels to the EU parliament (and I hope that then the EU population will take them more serious and prevent it to be used by their own country's politicians as a pre-retirement grazing ground for out-of-date politicians).
While the old, proposed constitution is dead, I'm against moves e.g. by the UK to block any DISCUSSION about a working one.

c) Anti-Americanism: Face it, the EU often has different interests than the US, which after all is sited on a different continent. While we should be Allies with the US, we should not be the lap dogs and should uphold our own interests.

d)Abortion: While I'm an atheist, I think that the matter of abortion in Poland is a Polish affair. I think though that there is a kind of European concensus, which most EU countries follow, allowing abortion during the first trimester of pregnancy after medical and social consultation, and a ban on later periods (except in the case of danger to the the woman's life). I think somewhere in medium future Poland and Ireland will probaly reach there as well.

Jan


User currently onlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5729 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 20):
I wonder which European government stands out as being "cheap, euroleftist" and "anti-American" in your book

fmr. Schroeder's, Zapatero's, Prodi's, Fico's (now that is one bizarre bunch), that fat f*ck Paroubek's we had a as a PM until last summer and probably any given French gov't by default.

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 21):
Pardon? I was merely quoting the word medievil from his post.

Next time try to use the "quote selected text" button...

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 20):
But I guess the true reason why other Europeans (particularly Germans, but as well as many Poles, I'm sure) are a bit baffled is, that the twins
a) try to (mis-)use fallen Poles to increase the voting weight of Poland
b) receive support from an anti-semitic, fundamentalist Catholic broadcaster, that is Radio Marija
c) wanted Mrs. Merkel to bring an essayist to court who nick-named the twins "potatoes" in a German newspaper.

Show me one example where I defended Kaczynski's policies. Please.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 20):
Indian press is likewise "euroleftist"

This particular one probably is since they deem any right-wing government automatically a "headache".

Poland is likely to be the first in a series of headaches for the EU as Europeans make a definite shift to the right, even favouring extreme right parties. In Belgium and France the extreme right Vlaams Belang (formerly Vlaams Blok) and National Front parties have made steady gains in popularity and the Czechs appear to be on the brink of naming a right wing government after months of political deadlock.


25 MD11Engineer : I don't know about your new Czech government, but AFAIK the Belgian Vlaams Block and the National Front of Le Pen are in about the same category as t
26 Paulc : The original constitution died the moment it was rejected by Holland and France. The fact that most of what was contained in it is proposed for this '
27 Post contains images Rineanna : How kind of you to point that out. I'm well aware of that function; it was more convenient to just quote the single word in the sentence rather then
28 LH526 : RIGHT!! Either accept the EU values, or stay out! Don't just pick the best raisins and neglect your duties an EU membership brings with you. Back to
29 Pyrex : Again, is abortion a duty that EU membership brings? I seemed to miss that one in the acession treaty...
30 Post contains images Banco : So democracies aren't allowed to argue their case amongst other democracies? Fascinating. I thought that was exactly what it was for. But clearly not
31 MD11Engineer : But this works also the other way around. I have got the slight felling that we are getting milked, e.g. more and more of my tax money goes into exce
32 Banco : No we aren't. We are a major net contributor. It's just that without the rebate we'd be by miles the biggest contributor. And quite frankly, the pros
33 MD11Engineer : This is a leftover of the Genscherist cheque book appeasement politics. We don't tend to stand our ground, mainly due to our past. We rather pay than
34 Banco : Which of course is exactly why BAE Systems wanted nothing whatever to do with EADS, or indeed Airbus - and is why the company is something of a baske
35 NoUFO : You are quick with calling people "anti-american". I thought Schroeder was too vocal in his opposition to the war on Iraq. But even in this case it s
36 Beaucaire : Einspruch ! I think the new management of EADS tries to make Airbus a more international compagny based on $ cost share providers.Meaning outsourcing
37 MD11Engineer : This might work in the short run, but I think in the long run it will be a mistake. Basically we are giving away our knowledge base. Just see what ha
38 Beaucaire : I fully see your point and have read about the A320 in China who might have been cut to pieces for the sake of reverse-engineering.What are the option
39 DL021 : On the That's really funny and quick. Let's say for a moment that all other political considerations are gone......the Polish did lose millions from b
40 Klaus : Because settling real or imaginary scores has a long and infamous history of being an extremely bad idea. The European Union, on the other hand, thri
41 Post contains images Banco : Quite right, Klaus. Couldn't agree more.
42 Post contains images Klaus : Excellent. When you're a fully qualified partner in a common project, that also means you can't limit your own role to permanent blockade and prevent
43 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Read the first sentence I quoted from the newspaper. Does 12% for the Vlaams Block in recent Belgian elections and 4 % for the FN in French elections
44 MD11Engineer : I don't think this will pull. Assumed WW2 and the German attrocities accompanying it would not have happened, the borders of both Poland and Germany
45 MD11Engineer : Definitely not! As I said, when it became public that Schroeder went for a wellpaid retirement post with Gazprom, he lost all political credibility i
46 Klaus : I agree completely on both counts.
47 Beaucaire : Agreed- but just now she is accepting Polish blackmailing in a way that is not good for Europe ! If the twins get all what they request -and it looks
48 DL021 : That's a valid point...most of the conflict in Europe in the last 100 years has been about using old scores to justify the violent settlement of real
49 Post contains images Klaus : Indeed. And the desire to abolish exactly that has been one of the main driving forces behind the establishment of the European Union. It never was j
50 MD11Engineer : Back in 1998 Schroeder was the only one who had the charisma to get Kohl out of office and to break the stagnation which set in during Kohl's 16 year
51 Banco : Actually, what it means is that you exercise your right as a democracy to do exactly that, if that's what your people wish. I never voted for any of
52 Klaus : If you're not voting in the european elections that's simply your own fault.
53 Post contains images NoUFO : In terms of foreign policies you have to take a step back now and then and allow compromises, which is apparently where the two twins are not at thei
54 MD11Engineer : It is understandable in a way, if the British parties use the EU parliament just like their German counterparts to get rid of undesirable or incompet
55 Fumanchewd : It seems to be the opposite of the US and just as disgusting. In the US the federal government dictates aborition policy based upon federal policy, w
56 Banco : I did vote. Read what I said.
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