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Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.  
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1741 times:

This is just sick.

"The former French president François Mitterrand supported the perpetrators of the 1994 Rwandan genocide despite clear warnings that mass killings of the Tutsi population were being orchestrated, according to declassified French documents."

"The documents, obtained by lawyers for six Tutsi survivors who are bringing a case against France for "complicity with genocide'' at the Paris Army Tribunal, suggest the late President Mitterrand's support for the Hutus was informed by an obsession with maintaining a French foothold in the region."

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2730430.ece

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

DUH!!!

Read Shake Hands with the Devule, by LtGen Romeo Dallaire, Force Commander of UNAMIR.

Heck, a sergeant from the Pentagon said that 80000 Rwandans had to die to justify one American Soldier. The French supported thegovernment which perpretrated most of the genocide.

But most of all its not what the west did - its what the west DID NOT do. They did not put human lives above their own want for resources. They did not champion the humanitarian causes.


Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1718 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 1):
But most of all its not what the west did - its what the west DID NOT do. They did not put human lives above their own want for resources. They did not champion the humanitarian causes.

Having lived in "the east" and "the west", it is clear that most Westerners just simply don't care about Africa. Well, a few do, and everyone pretends they do or they want to, but, in reality...they have to look out for number 1. And I don't blame them, everyone the world over looks out for number 1, but...it is one thing to look out for number 1, and another thing to just completely turn your back on an entire continent and act like they don't matter just because it benefits you, or because they are poor, or because they "treat each other so horribly" as I have heard from more than a couple people. So, in conclusion, I must agree with you 100% on your statement.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 1):
They did not champion the humanitarian causes.

But still now some expect that they will.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17499 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1680 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 1):
their own want for resources

Resources being...?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1677 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Resources being...?

I don't think there are resources to be gained, and that's the thing...what do they have to gain from helping? Not a lot...it may be moral and all that, but moral doesn't pay the bills. Same thing happens in most countries (for example, my countries cooperation with Mugabe's Zimbabwe...we all know he's a monster, but my government has decided it's worse for us to not work with Zimbabwe because of the economic impact the loss of relations would have)


User currently offlineYOWza From Turks and Caicos Islands, joined Jul 2005, 4889 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1670 times:

Quoting SW733 (Reply 5):
I don't think there are resources to be gained, and that's the thing...what do they have to gain from helping?

Bingo! Had their been anything worth exploiting your can bet every western power would be there and would have been active. It's a real shame. I had the pleasure of meeting Romeo Dallaire in Ottawa a couple of years ago, I have never felt so small in my life.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 6):
Bingo! Had their been anything worth exploiting your can bet every western power would be there and would have been active. It's a real shame. I had the pleasure of meeting Romeo Dallaire in Ottawa a couple of years ago, I have never felt so small in my life.

Holy crap, we agree about Africa?!?!?!?!?!  Wink  thumbsup 


User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1651 times:

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
Having lived in "the east" and "the west", it is clear that most Westerners just simply don't care about Africa.

Having also live in "the east" and "the west," it is clear most Africans simply don't care about Africa either.  Angry


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1646 times:

Is it only me that gets the hipocrisy of some of those powers-that-be that criticized our actions in Iraq, when by their own inaction, 800,000 died?

User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1644 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Resources being...?

Coffee and Tea. Rwanda was a boom for Belgium before Belgium let their colonial holdings go.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 3):
But still now some expect that they will.

I highly, highly doubt it.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):

Many kids I know still think nothing of Africa. Ill bring up the subject in a class conversation on the state of the world or something in school, and the typical response to any topic on Africa from either a student or a teacher (unexcuseable) is that it simply doesnt matter, because "its Africa". And, man, lemme tell ya, its effed up, wrong, hypocritical, and it makes me angry that they can simply look over so many people.

How can we, the United States of America, the United Kingdom, any rich western power, say we believe in humanitarian causes when we display such conduct as we did in Rwanda? Its high time, I think, to prove it.

"If we believe all humans are human, then how are we going to prove it? It can only be proven through our actions." - Romeo Dallaire

Too true, too true.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Is it only me that gets the hipocrisy of some of those powers-that-be that criticized our actions in Iraq, when by their own inaction, 800,000 died?

Politicians, Conrad, will be politicians.


Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 10):
Politicians, Conrad, will be politicians.

Matters of life and death should not be politicized. I know they are, but they shouldn't.


User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1627 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 11):

Agree 110%


User currently offlineScrubbsYWG From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

as was mentioned, i think everyone should read Shake Hands With the Devil, by Dallaire. Its a fantastic read, and gives you the impression that no one wanted to help these people except most of the commanders on the ground, and probably the personnel as well. People in washington/new york bickering about who's going to pay for the gas for APCs to protect targets for assasinations was just one thing that sticks in my mind about the west's indifference towards this, and pisses me off.

Its unfortunate that 13 years later, nothing much has really changed. The UN was not held accountable(who would do that?), western nations just kinda wiped their hands of it. We don't hear about it much these days, and even if we do, its nothing of substance.


User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1567 times:

One of our clients pals from Northern Ireland runs a charity in Rwanda called Food for Though. Basically the kids get fed and can take food home to their families, but only after they have completed several hours of schooling each day.

He said that they have also made great strides knocking heads together, basically saying to these people that you aren't Hutus or Tutsis, you're RWANDAN, and he feels the message is sinking in. However, this was a decade ago, and I would think that reconciliation rather than lawsuits are the better way forward.

Everyone agrees that the whole Rwanda situation was terrible and "something" should have been done, but you only have to see how much "action" is being done to resolve the situation in the Sudan.

Quoting JAL777 (Reply 8):
Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
Having lived in "the east" and "the west", it is clear that most Westerners just simply don't care about Africa.

Having also live in "the east" and "the west," it is clear most Africans simply don't care about Africa either.

As an 8 year North Africa resident, I second that.



Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1551 times:

The worse is that we pay billions to the Africans and Merkel says we want to help , but we still ruin the farmers in Africa with our Agrar Subventions !

This is criminal !

Konstantin


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 15):
The worse is that we pay billions to the Africans and Merkel says we want to help , but we still ruin the farmers in Africa with our Agrar Subventions !

This is criminal !

Konstantin

OK. since ag policy is something I know a little about, just how do European farm subsidies ruin African farmers? What subsidies are we talking about, anyway?

I mean, I've heard all the arguments that US farm subsidies are attempting to cram GMOs down the throats of third world farmers in their loincloths and ruin them financially. It's a remarkably simplisticviewpoint about a complex issue but there it is.


User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1510 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16):

Well the EU subventions are 350 billion Euros a year !

The concurrence from Europe and America ruins the farmers , as the productions cost in Europe are (because of subventions) less than in Africa .

This makes that the African farmers are not competitive with Europeans or Americans .

The Stop of this Subventions would be the best development aid for Africa .


BTW : The EU subventions are 350 billion Dollar , the world development aid is less than 60 billion .

This is one more reason to be against the ALCA , which is for South America but still the same (and main) reasons of the US :

To get as much as money as possible .

Konstantin


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17499 posts, RR: 45
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1504 times:

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 10):
Coffee and Tea. Rwanda was a boom for Belgium before Belgium let their colonial holdings go.

You think the West didn't intervene in Rwanda because of our "want" of coffee and Tea?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1493 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Thread starter):
Disgusting West Conduct

How did "The West" factor into all of this? The only country I see mentioned in the opening post is France.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
it is clear that most Westerners just simply don't care about Africa.

I don't. Tell me why I should.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
and everyone pretends they do or they want to

I don't, and I don't make it any secret. It's a resource-rich continent, and it's inhabitants are capable of having anything "The West" has if they stop their infighting and put their minds to developing what they have.


User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1490 times:

Quoting Queso (Reply 19):

How did "The West" factor into all of this? The only country I see mentioned in the opening post is France.

The west just looked how all this poor people were killed ... they never reacted ... same as in Darfur


User currently offlineSkidmarks From UK - England, joined Dec 2004, 7121 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1473 times:

Regarding the situation with Africa and the former colonial powers, because thats where most of the blame is pointed, people seem to forget the eagerness that Africa had to get rid of them. Without the stabilising influence of Britain, France et al, Africa has largely been left to it's own devices and the resulting chaos and mayhem has a lot to do with this.

I firmly believe that if the colonial withdrawl from Africa had been slower and more coordinated then Africa would'nt be in nearly half as bad a condition as it is today. However, they did withdraw pretty fast post-war and the result is the misery and strife we see just about anywhere in Africa today.

As for France condoning the murders of thousands of Rwandans, that doesn't surprise me as the French have always been reluctant to let any colony go and tend to treat their former citizens as less than human. Although I don't think any of us are totally whiter than white in that respect.

Andy  old 



Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1457 times:

Quoting Queso (Reply 19):
How did "The West" factor into all of this? The only country I see mentioned in the opening post is France.

Belgium and the US were involved as well.

Quoting Queso (Reply 19):
I don't. Tell me why I should.

Well, just wondering, did you care about N. Ireland? Bosnia, Serbia?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
You think the West didn't intervene in Rwanda because of our "want" of coffee and Tea?

Thats a negative, Ghostrider.

I misspoke (mistyped?). The west would have intervened had there been resources there.

Cheers,
Kyle


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17499 posts, RR: 45
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1450 times:

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 20):
The west just looked how all this poor people were killed ... they never reacted ... same as in Darfur

What do you want the West to do, specifically?

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 22):
The west would have intervened had there been resources there.

Why did the West intervene in Sierra Leone?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1440 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):

What do you want the West to do, specifically?

create a fair market .


25 Queso : Does it matter? That is a convenient and easy to type excuse, but it has nothing to do with this. The countries in Africa can trade among themselves
26 MaverickM11 : I don't disagree with that but how would that change anything in Darfur or Rwanda?
27 Speedbird747BA : Hmmmm....Konstantin could you clarify? You mean you want the west to make it fair for Africans competing in the global market? Or you want the west t
28 Speedbird747BA : I guess this is the generation gap, but yes it matters to me. Ya.....Im confused on this point as well Konstantin......Im not sure it would do much o
29 LHStarAlliance : False . I´ll take for example milk (but same for all agrarian products): 1 Liter milk in Germany production costs : 70c. 1 Liter milk in Zambia prod
30 Post contains images LHStarAlliance : see reply 29
31 L410Turbolet : I think the problem is that unlike e.g. SE Asia they simply do not seem to produce anything someone else would want. And starting conditions 50 years
32 Speedbird747BA : To be fair, every development organization isnt fair. Cheers, Kyle
33 Speedbird747BA : Well if some African nations can do well enough (Ghana), then all can. Cheers, Kyle
34 AndesSMF : If you google additional info, you will see how the West did nothing. Of course, some of the same individuals and groups love to call the US 'murdere
35 Post contains images MaverickM11 : It's called the UN and "multilateralism". The whole "unilateral thing" isn't well received. Doesn't make sense? Amen to that. But that still won't ma
36 L410Turbolet : Maybe it's the naive idealism of the youth??? Well if EU's CAP is nonsense then the idea of selling milk from e.g. Botswana in Germany is a meganonse
37 LHStarAlliance : well it´s stupid , but lucrative for western companies .
38 L410Turbolet : And the problem is??? Those "lucrative for western companies" you despise so much provide - by sending its people back an forth on business trips in
39 LHStarAlliance : c´mon please let´s stay with Arguments ... The European governments give the Agrarian industries 350 billion Euros per year , well we can say it ou
40 L410Turbolet : What stops the African countries to sell products elsewhere, in Africa itself? I mean feel free by all means to continue in endless self-flagellation
41 Derico : It's a catch-22: Africa should get -real-- I know for example Algeria, Angola import basically all their dairy from us (even as for Argentina dairy i
42 Dougloid : Ummm, Konstantin, what I asked you was, more or less, what these subsidies are specifically and what their effect is. I know you think they're a bad
43 Post contains images LHStarAlliance : I answered this already but ok , again : The EU sells in Africa (to Gambia , SA , Egypt , Kenya , etc) milk for 70c (so cheap because of the subventi
44 Post contains links MaverickM11 : http://www.freetrade.org/node/308 "One, reform would deliver lower food prices to tens of millions of American households, especially low-income famil
45 Post contains images AndesSMF : You guys are making me agree with Konstantin! We might believe that some of the price support is not much $$, but in developing countries, the amount
46 Post contains images Speedbird747BA : True, the structure of the UN needs to be changed to fix that, and being realistic, this is NEVER going to happen, the UN will be long gone by then.
47 Post contains links AndesSMF : Very basic history: 'Only Belgium had asked for a strong UNAMIR mandate, but after the gruesome murder of the ten Belgian peacekeepers protecting the
48 Speedbird747BA : Good post. By the way, in my statement that you quoted, I should have put a period at the end. Oops! Cheers, Kyle
49 YOWza : haha, as I was typing it I had a smile on my face knowing that we agreed on an issue that we were worlds apart on in a diffferent thread. Can I ask w
50 Post contains images Speedbird747BA : Because by African standards, Ghana is fairly stable. Thanks for the info though, I did not know what you said in your second paragraph. Well since y
51 YOWza : Stability is not necessarily a good indicator. After all Iraq was stable under Saddam... Not at all. Because Ghana is so well perceived in the west t
52 Dougloid : I don't have a lot to say that's good about the Cato institute. Fact is, American farm subsidies are for six crops-rice wheat corn soya cotton and I
53 Post contains images SW733 : DAMN good point...I may like you after all!
54 MaverickM11 : What about sugar?
55 Bhmbaglock : Sugar cane and sugar beets are missing from your list.
56 Speedbird747BA : Good point. Interesting info, thanks. Cheers, Kyle
57 Dougloid : Nope. There are tarriffs on imported sugar, but that's not a subsidy program.
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