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3 Dead, 3 Wounded In Law School Shooting  
User currently offlineB747ca From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 677 posts, RR: 2
Posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1656 times:

From CNN....

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/16/law.school.shooting/index.html


ma va funk ulo
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGoodbye From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 913 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1597 times:

I wonder where it will be tomorrow?

User currently offlineEal401 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1593 times:

I wonder how Mr Heston and other NRA members will defend their gun ownership rights this time.

User currently offlineToadpipe From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1590 times:

Yeah, those crazy guns making people kill. Get real. We don't take away liberties becuase people abuse them. Do you own a car? Do people speed? Should we take away your car? Can a pilot disobey instructions from a an air traffic controller? yes ( I'm pretty sure a kid deliberatley flew one into a building just a couple days ago). Should we outlaw flying? I'm not sure how Mr. Heston would answer you , but that is how I would, and I don't own a gun and I'm not an NRA member.

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1581 times:

It's too quick Pissed


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineEal401 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1576 times:

Actually, yeah I'm sorry, you're all quite right.

Just remembered about gun laws in the UK changing after someone cold bloodedly murdered a bunch of 6-7 year old school kids in Scotland. How insensitive of me to question the rights of the American people not to be allowed to commit similar acts in their country.

People killed by cars are invariably killed by accident.

People who are shot are shot deliberately.

But if you don't care about people being allowed to shoot your fellow citizens....


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1570 times:

Eal401....Umm People in the US typically are not allowed to shoot other citizens....

That is where this numnuts screwed up.....Would you have prefered if he took off after them with his car? They would be just as dead.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1568 times:

Eal401, I suppose you think if guns were banned, no one would be shooting anyone else  Yeah sure

Let's outlaw narcotics as a test and see if that takes them off the street  Insane



"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1567 times:

Just remember, in Japan a man killed a bunch of students with a KNIFE. Also, I saw a report the other day that gun crimes in Great Britain have skyrocketed since they outlawed almost every gun.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1561 times:

Remember the disaster in Austrailia when guns were outlawed? Well the opposite happened. Violent crime went up due to near 0 tolerance on the guns and the crime rate is so high it'll probably never go own unless if you have an aussie version of Rudy Guliani. Unless the crime down under goes down. Then I guess I can rule out SYD for my summer vacation


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineEal401 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1548 times:

OK, put the "cars can kill too" argument to one side.

What really stuns me is apparant attitude on the thread, that is people appear to care more about me being negative about about guns but don't give a damn about their country's citizens being shot dead.

It feels like, "he shot three people, so what? But how dare you criticise the ease in which he got that gun!"

How easy was it for this guy to get a gun? True, if guns were outlawed, it would not have been impossible but may have made him think twice? I don't know and therefore won't assume.


User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1545 times:

I am saddened anytime I hear a person is murdered. However, I don’t go into panic mode and call for laws to take guns away from legal owners. I expect the murderer to be given a fair trail, found guilty, (in cases like this guilt isn’t in doubt) and IMHO, executed.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1543 times:

Eal, that's the problem. The ease of which to obtain a firearm will not change for bad-guys.

While a ban makes sense to you on paper, in the real world, all it would do would assure crooks that their victims are unarmed.



"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1535 times:

Toad.

Yeah, those crazy guns making people kill.

Actually, those crazy guns give people the opportunity to kill.

Get real.

More real than watching MORE body bags on TV?

We don't take away liberties becuase people abuse them.

Why not? When did you right to carry a gun suddenly outweigh those three peoples rights to exist?

Do you own a car? Do people speed? Should we take away your car?

Where I live if you are caught doing burnouts in public they remove your cars. The public thinks it's a good idea.

but that is how I would, and I don't own a gun and I'm not an NRA member.

You have a lot of questions, all of which are irrelevant because whilst you can cause death with a car and a plane, that is not their main purpose. A gun has one purpose and one alone. To push a bullet out the front of it.

I have a question for you. How would you feel if it was your mother or your father or your sister or your brother or your granny who was wheeled out in a body bag?

The world functions perfectly well in countries where the right to carry a gun doesn't exist. Theyr'e not perfect but then we don't face people going postal on a weekly basis like the US does. In fact, using Australia as an example, we don't even have one incident like that a year!

We are proof that gun control works fine.

Guns didn't cause this. Some Asshole Nigerian who was pissed off that he got kicked out of law school did.

Without the gun he could not have done this. Guns don't cause death but their easy access do allow people to kill others.

I'm surprised i'm the only one who mentioned this, but how can shooting lawyers be a punishable offence?

Hmmm... good point.

That is where this numnuts screwed up.....Would you have prefered if he took off after them with his car? They would be just as dead.

Actually, this statement is incorrect. They would have more of a chance had he not had a gun, some of them might not be dead. Guns ensure that they are killed.

Eal401, I suppose you think if guns were banned, no one would be shooting anyone else

If guns were banned there would be less shooting of others. Crime will always occur but it can be limited. There are countries outside the US borders that are living proof that this works.

Remember the disaster in Austrailia when guns were outlawed?

Nope, gun control has been in force for as long as I can remember.

Well the opposite happened. Violent crime went up due to near 0 tolerance on the guns and the crime rate is so high it'll probably never go own unless if you have an aussie version of Rudy Guliani.

What a load of crap. Violent crime did not "go up" and we don't have "near zero tolerance" of guns. Perhaps you should actually learn a little bit about a country before attempting to comment on it.

Violent crime in Australia is so low that it makes front page news when it occurs. Do you have so few arguments that you must make it up?

Unless the crime down under goes down. Then I guess I can rule out SYD for my summer vacation

Please feel free to avoid Australia, i'd hate you to be the one innocent tourist shot to death this decade by some criminal who had an illegal handgun shipped over here by some mail order place in the US whos greed allows them to ignore the laws in your country and mine! (oh, we've had one of those this decade so you might be OK)

I am saddened anytime I hear a person is murdered. However, I don’t go into panic mode and call for laws to take guns away from legal owners.

It is sad when this happens and any normal person would evaluate how it occurred and whether there is any way in which this type of crime could be avoided in the future. To make guns difficult/impossible to get ensures that people who use guns in crimes of passion cannot do so in future. It also means that the instance of accidental death by gunshot would fall as well.

and Jetservice... it isn't always the "bad guys" that do the killing. The criminals will always get guns, but gun control means that it's harder for them to get them, it's easier to take them off them when found.

But it does mean that the everday Joe can't just pick up a gun whenever they have a grievance about something. If it's difficult to get a gun they have time to calm down before using it and some of them may not use the guns.

Also, gun control in Australia prohibits those who have a criminal record or a history of mental illness from owning a gun and gives the police the right to search a house and remove the guns. It also removes guns from people who are the recipient of Aprehended (or Domestic) Violence Orders for the period of time for which the orders are in force.




VH-ADG


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1528 times:

If guns were banned there would be less shooting of others.

You simply have no basic for that. That's just your opinion, and I don't agree with it. You assume if guns were banned, they'd disappear. WRONG!

I'm my opinion, the US would see higher crime as a result, because a huge hurdle for robbing homes and businesses would be lifted.

There are countries outside the US borders that are living proof that this works.

There are other countries that prove the contrary also. But so what to both. The US is not the same as any other country. Its a weak comparison. There are so many factors, you can't pin lower crime on any one issue. Why do these same countries have the same proportionally lower knifing murders? Rapes? Battery? Domestic Abuse? These are gunless crimes, so the gun ban has no bearing. Its something else, and that something else is likely the same reason shootings are much lower also.



"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1522 times:

You simply have no basic for that.

Of course I do. I have "the facts".

That's just your opinion, and I don't agree with it.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. You appear to be unware of the fact that many countries in the world have gun control. Crime is lower in these countries than in the United States and that's partly because crimes of opportunity are much easier if you have a gun.

and certainly, you have a right to disagree. But I think your arguments are based on emotion and not fact. In many instances the gun is merely a penis extension.

You assume if guns were banned, they'd disappear. WRONG!

I never said that, that's the pro gun attempt at diverting the facts. Guns will never disappear because whilst I cannot buy a handgun in Australia, many greedy American shopkeepers are more than happy to ship them over here (in very clear breach of American and Australian laws). If I wanted one I could get one, it's just not that easy and having an illegal gun is a criminal offence punishable by jail time. There is incentive there to limit the number of illegal weapons.

I have no incentive and no desire to have a gun. I don't need it for power or for protection.

I'm my opinion, the US would see higher crime as a result, because a huge hurdle for robbing homes and businesses would be lifted.

History proves that you are wrong. The crime rate in Australia (used as an example only because I live here) is lower than in America and we don't have acess to guns and shooting someone who breaks into your house is actually a crime here.

By the way, in Australia house breakins almost NEVER involve a weapon. They are a crime of opportunity and violence is so rare that again, it's front page news.

There are other countries that prove the contrary also.

Not so.

But so what to both.

So what? They are proof that your arguments are flawed. If you are going to spout pro gun propoganda make it accurate at least.

The US is not the same as any other country.

No it isn't but I wonder what you mean by that statement and what it's relevance is to the conversation.

Its a weak comparison.

Why?

There are so many factors, you can't pin lower crime on any one issue.

You can pin lower specific crimes on individual things. Do you know the statistics on gun usage in the US?

Why do these same countries have the same proportionally lower knifing murders?

They don't.

Rapes?

They don't.

Battery?

They don't.

Domestic Abuse?

They don't.

These are gunless crimes, so the gun ban has no bearing.

Agreed. However, when fighting crime you target individual crime types and look what you can do to lower that specific crime. Gun control doesn't relate to those types of crimes, they relate specifically to crime involving guns and accidental deaths due to lack of gun control.

Its something else, and that something else is likely the same reason shootings are much lower also.

Nope, shootings are lower because guns generally can't be used for "emotive" attacks and they are very rarely used "accidentally".

The facts remain, that whether you have a right to have guns or not, there is enough proof in the world from countries "similar enough to the US to be comparable" that gun control is not a bad thing. Your arguments "pro gun" are flawed and based on nothing more than inaccuracies. The facts appear to be that you WANT a gun, it makes you feel POWERFUL, it makes you feel SAFE. The facts are that I don't WANT a gun, guns repulse me, they have one purpose only .. TO KILL, a gun doesn't make me feel safe. Living in a country where the people (generally) have respect for each other is far more important to me than having a gun.





VH-ADG


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

ADG, first of all there's no proven connection between gun laws and crime rates. You have documented crime rates and gun control rates, but to say one causes the other is your own deduction. Secondly, there are some countries where guns are as readily available as the US and the crime rates are no different than the countries you refer to. So to say your vague stats are fact is just a plain lie. Its your opinion. Its a deduction you make on your own based on selected countries that fit your argument. When you put all countries together, the results are mixed with no correlation whatsoever. Nice try, though.


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1500 times:

ADG, first of all there's no proven connection between gun laws and crime rates.

Sure there is.

You have documented crime rates and gun control rates, but to say one causes the other is your own deduction.

Nope, public servants are paid thousands of dollars to come up with these facts. We had the American Gun Lobby fight in Australia about gun control and for every point they had the government had a counter point or provable statistics to back up their stance.

Secondly, there are some countries where guns are as readily available as the US and the crime rates are no different than the countries you refer to.

Which countries?

So to say your vague stats are fact is just a plain lie.

Rubbish.

Its your opinion.

Nope, my opinion is that guns are a stupid idea in the hands of people who aren't trained to use them and who have no purpose to have them. My opinion is that people use guns to extend their penises and to give themselves a sense of "power", some even need guns to feel safe. These people are pathetic.

That's my opinion.

Its a deduction you make on your own based on selected countries that fit your argument.

Based upon countries of which I have knowledge. Simple fact is that Americans tell us you MUST have guns to be safe, I say WRONG and that I live in a country that proves that. Facts are simple.

When you put all countries together, the results are mixed with no correlation whatsoever. Nice try, though.

I take it you are prepared to prove that with facts? What countries?



VH-ADG


User currently offlineToadpipe From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1495 times:

ADG, First off the questions I stated were relevant, the purpose of guns is not to kill people in a criminal matter, now is it? Secondly if someone killed my kids with a gun or with a butter knife, would it matter? Nope, they would still be dead, OJ did a pretty good job with a knife if I recall. I would be upset with the individual who committed the crime, not some inanimate object that can not act on it's own. The notion that guns kill is absurd, it's the bullet, not the gun , so outlaw bullets, j/k it's the guy who pulls the trigger or drives drunk or flys an airplane into a building that kills, not the instrument itself. Opportunity to kill (motive?), is not determined soley by the availabilty of guns, that is just silly: revenge, jealousy, greed, improper justice penaltys, those provide the opportunities, not the gun. Methods of murder are not in any shortness of supply. Would the world be a better place without them, yes, unfortunately there is no possible way to make that happen. So in a perfect world, I'd agree with you, but unfortunately I have my feet firmly planted on this green earth with a bunch of wackos, so I'd prefer to have the right to defend myself in an adequate matter. One last question, your probably for abortion right? Cause it is the mothers right and we shouldn't force our views on their rights, that would be unethical? Well use a little bit of that logic here. We should be pro choice for guns. Not that I'm pro choice, but I figured you were.

User currently offlineWatewate From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 2284 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1494 times:

I'm not going to dispute pro-gun claims that some countries have low crime rates with gun ownership allowed. But face it, America has proportionally more psychos ready/willing to use their gun due to its huge population base. Either you keep all those psychos off the street, or guns.

User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1487 times:

ADG; Get your damn facts straight pal! Aren't you the same moron that told Indian Guy "Pakistan didn't attack the Indian Parliment" You have very little knowledge of what goes on. Get out of your bubble and explore the real world.

This incident remind me alot about the LIRR shootting. Maybe NY congress woman Carolyn McCarthy(D) can add some new laws. She lost her husband and her son was nearly lost as well when a man named Colin Furgenson opened fire aboard the crowed train as it approaced the Minneola Station. 7 were killed. Furgenson hated white people and felt blacks were getting screwed at his university because of their "hidden racist policies" Not surprisingly that Liberal Ron Kuby and his sidekick was Furgenson's legal advisors while Furgenson victimized those poor people again as he was his own lawyer.



"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1485 times:

First off the questions I stated were relevant, the purpose of guns is not to kill people in a criminal matter, now is it?

Actually the sole purpose of a gun is to kill.

Secondly if someone killed my kids with a gun or with a butter knife, would it matter?

There is much less chance that they would kill you with a butter knife than a gun.

Nope, they would still be dead,

True. However bear in mind:

1. It is much harder to mass murder without a gun
2. It is much harder physically or emotionally to kill with a knife as it's much more personal an attack
3. It is easier to overpower someone with a knife
4. Using a knife as a weapon is slower giving people a chance to get away
5. You have more chance of surviving a knife attack than a gun attack

OJ did a pretty good job with a knife if I recall.

Well assuming he did it, the pictures were pretty horrific. No one ever suggested that guns were the only weapon, but a gun is a far more effective weapon than a knife. I suspect that whoever killed Nicole Simpson (be it OJ or whever) was pretty damned determined to succeed regardless of what weapon they used.

I would be upset with the individual who committed the crime, not some inanimate object that can not act on it's own.

Well this is where we differ. I would look at the crime, at why it was committed and how it was committed. First and formost I would blame the person who did it, but I would also ask how they managed to comit the crime and what could have been done to avoid it.

The notion that guns kill is absurd, it's the bullet, not the gun , so outlaw bullets, j/k it's the guy who pulls the trigger or drives drunk or flys an airplane into a building that kills, not the instrument itself.

Actually, guns allow people to kill people. To remove the opportunity you remove the gun. It's quite simple really.

Opportunity to kill (motive?), is not determined soley by the availabilty of guns, that is just silly:

The motive or desire to kill is a human emotion but the gun gives the opportunity. Are you aware that many people are cowardly and without the gun to give them "power" they wouldn't have the nerve to kill. The gun is a non emotional item, it removes you from the uglyness of having to physically involve yourself in the killing, you can stand away from a person and pull a trigger.

To suggest that everyone who has used a gun to kill would have killed with a knife or whatever is incorrect. Some would, but not all.

revenge, jealousy, greed, improper justice penaltys, those provide the opportunities, not the gun.

Nope, they provide the motiviation the gun provides the opportunity.

Methods of murder are not in any shortness of supply.

No, but by far the most common is the gun.

Would the world be a better place without them, yes, unfortunately there is no possible way to make that happen.

Sure there is, the law enforcement of every country (that I know of) spends a huge amount of time and money looking for ways of minimising crime.

So in a perfect world, I'd agree with you, but unfortunately I have my feet firmly planted on this green earth with a bunch of wackos, so I'd prefer to have the right to defend myself in an adequate matter.

Do you ever ask yourself why you feel that way when I, another member of the same human race, do not. I can count one one hand the "weirdos" I have met in my life!

One last question, your probably for abortion right?

Actually i'm against abortion but pro choice. This means quite simply that I would only abort a child if there was a realistic and reasonable medical reason to do so (and I have never had an abortion). This also means that I support a womans right to free choice.

I do not agree or support post first trimester abortion except for reasons of severe medical problems and I do not agree with abortion as a method of birth control.

Cause it is the mothers right and we shouldn't force our views on their rights,

True

that would be unethical?

It has nothing to do with ethics, it has to do with the right to control your own body. I am also pro voluntary euthenasia.

Well use a little bit of that logic here. We should be pro choice for guns. Not that I'm pro choice, but I figured you were.

I disagree. Prochoice for what happens to your own body is totally different to pro choice for guns.

The abortion issue is to broad an issue to get into in a gun debate except to say that it's quite offensive to try and use it for justification.

oh and watewate, that's not a reasonable excuse for having a gun, you lock the wackos up and give them the medical treatment they require and it would make perfect sense to me to ensure the wackos don't have access to guns!!!!



VH-ADG


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1488 times:

ADG, look at Switzerland, New Zealand, and Isreal. They have gun-ownership rates similar to the US, yet, like the countries you mention, they too have much lower murder rates compared to the US. And guess what??!! Switzerland has a lower murder rate than Germany! New Zealand had one lower than Australia! It gets even better! Isreal has a HIGHER gun-ownership rate than the U.S., yet has a murder rate lower than Canada. Want more? Look at Finland and Sweden. While they have very different rates of gun ownership, they have similar murder rates. You see, comparing access to guns with murder rates & violent crime rates is futile because it just isn't consistent from country to country. There's no correlation! What you are doing is cherry-picking the comparisons that fit your argument and claim it as a fact, while dismissing other comparisons to the contrary. The only conclusion you could draw is that are just too many other factors to point at one issue. You are looking at two sets of factual statistics (which I'm not disputing), but concluding on your own that one directly influences the other (which I AM disputing). Just to blow your theory out of the water further, take a look at US states. To better compare apples to apples, U.S. data indicates that those states that have had the largest increases in gun ownership have had the greatest drops in violent crime rates. That goes against what you say 180°.

As for the penis-extention nonsense and power-trip BS, well that's just drivel that is a waste of time. That too is your opinion, and so be it. They kind of hysterical talk leads me to believe you were doubting your facts yourself. And just for the record, no one has ever told me I HAD to own a gun to be safe, and I don't even own a gun, and I never have!!!



"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1482 times:

No ADG the sole purpose of a gun is to have fun  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Oh the other part of the story that I haven't heard reported on the news.

They made a big deal about how three of the other law students disarmed and held this guy until police showed up.

DID THEY MENTION HOW THEY DISARMED HIM????

NOOOOOOOO!!!!

One of the three went to his car and got his legal pistol and stood the gunman down. The gunman saw the other students pistol and gave up.

Another alleged criminal taken off the streets by a law abiding gun owner!

Pretty damm convienent how they forgot to mention that in the mainstream media.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1488 times:

Six million ways to die.....choose one...


Word
25 Toadpipe : ADG, sorry for the confusion on the opportunity thing, I wasn't sure how you were defining it. That said I chose to define it as motive, since your de
26 ADG : United States : - 3.72 gun homicides per 100,000 people - 39% of households have guns Switzerland - .58 homisides per 100,000 people - 27.2% of housho
27 Alpha 1 : Reading what little I have, I have to, for once, agree almost entirely with ADG. Toadpipe, you say gun owners aren't taking away anyone's liberties wh
28 Post contains images B747ca : Mark this day, Alpha 1 agrees with ADG
29 Toadpipe : I'm not against gun control, ADG. I'm against gun removal. I think we need better enforcement of laws concerning guns, who wouldn't agree to that. I'm
30 JetService : ADG, I'm glad you took the time to dig up the stats and now concluded that the problem is too simple as to jsut 'ban guns'. Yes, America has a more vi
31 Post contains images L-188 : MY First post got deleted..... I don't know who was the weenie that complained about it but the point stands....It wasn't the weapon that caused this
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