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Which Is The Leading State In The EU  
User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1524 posts, RR: 9
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

I think it's Germany because it's big and is the only one able to lead the EU.
I think German people isn't perfect, but is the only one able to lead integration process.
I think Germany is one of the best int he world and can lead European integration process in a very good way.
I would like to have President of the EU coming from Germany.

[Edited 2007-07-08 18:09:33]

130 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAjd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3681 times:

I think it's England because I'm English  Silly

In all seriousness though... wasn't your post just a teeny bit biased? (ok, mine was too....)


User currently offlineEELonghorn From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

What is the complete list of states in the EU in the order they joined?

User currently offlineZak From Greenland, joined Sep 2003, 1993 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

i'm with you there f.pier, i do think that given the integration issues, the german "lets overdo it" approach is actually not too wrong. the german "OH MY GOD WE ****ED UP BADLY WITH WW2 AND SUCH SO LETS BE EXTRA NICE AND NOT EGOISTIC" is very beneficial to the european integration process, since german leaders usually go way out of their interest to accomodate the european progress, mostly driven by the motivation that you NEVER want anyone to blame you for trying to create another german empire. given that both the uk and france have a tendency to attempt to utilize the e.u. to regain some of their imperial leverage, i do not consider them good examples in that aspect. the other countries just do not have the leverage to do anything without support from either one of the three big powers, hence they can not lead realistically.
i'd also like to point out that, apart from ideological motivations on turkey or not, the eu needs to sort itself out before taking anyone in in the next 15-25 years. the only exception from this would be one of the city states like monacco, andorra etc, switzerland and possibly, once they sorted themselves out, the balkans(however no earlier than in 10 years i assume).



10=2
User currently offlineOhTheDrama747 From UK - Scotland, joined Jan 2005, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3623 times:

Quoting EELonghorn (Reply 2):
What is the complete list of states in the EU in the order they joined?

According to Wikipedia:

1957 - Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands

1973 - Denmark, Ireland, UK

1981 - Greece

1986 - Portugal, Spain

1995 - Austria, Sweden, Finland

2004 - Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovenia, Slovakia

2007 - Bulgaria, Romania

Total of 27 states. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#European_Community

[Edited 2007-07-08 20:51:54]

User currently offlineArniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3585 times:

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
think it's Germany

I don't think it is any particular state and it shouldn't be that way either.
The leading state is that who can get the most support from the other states for a given problem and solution.
This is the way it is and rightly so because it is the democratic way.

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
I would like to have President of the EU coming from Germany.

I would like to have the ability to choose myself who is the chairman of the commission, something that is really lacking these days and also one of the mayor points why there is so much hostility towards the EU among its citizens.
Personally I would be reluctant to vote for any politician from the big 4 (D/F/I/UK) nations as their influence is already very big.

A good way for electing a chairman of the commission would be if you can only vote for a politician from the other countries.
for example a German cannot vote for let's say Frau Merkel but could vote for ex. T Blair.
This would create a good power balance in the EU leadership as the bigger countries would not dominate automatically.


Personally I would go for the current Portuguese chairman, Barosso or maybe Blair, he wouldn't be bad either.



[edit post]
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5712 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3563 times:

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
President of the EU

Does the EU really need yet another useless position with questionable mandate?


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4328 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3503 times:

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 5):
A good way for electing a chairman of the commission would be if you can only vote for a politician from the other countries.
for example a German cannot vote for let's say Frau Merkel but could vote for ex. T Blair.

This reminds me TOO much of the Eurovision Songfestival, we will end up with all small eastern european countries voting for their neighbors and get some homophobic Polish president  scared 



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
I think it's Germany because it's big and is the only one able to lead the EU.
I think German people isn't perfect, but is the only one able to lead integration process.
I think Germany is one of the best int he world and can lead European integration process in a very good way.
I would like to have President of the EU coming from Germany.

-
Since the days of the Montan-Union and the EEC, it was rather France which lead the E.U., which is bad as France is a centralist country with a meagre understanding for federalism and federalist structures. The advantage of the "widening" of the EU is that A) the centre has moved eastwards from the Amsterdam-Brussels-Paris line to a Stockholm-Berlin-Prague-Budapest-Milan line and B) that France no longer can virtually control the organisation as "La Grande Nation" did for decades in the past.
-

Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 1):
I think it's England because I'm English

Is England in Europe ?  Yeah sure  Confused
-


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21471 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Since the days of the Montan-Union and the EEC, it was rather France which lead the E.U., which is bad as France is a centralist country with a meagre understanding for federalism and federalist structures.

France is actively participating in the EU, so they've got noticeable influence. But they're also living with the fact that they have to convince the others of their ideas. And like everybody else they don't always succeed with that. In many cases, smaller countries who are participating actively have a disproportionally large influence on the development of the EU.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Is England in Europe ?

Sure. Where else?


User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):

Obviously you do not understand the idea of the European Union.

No European country will put themselves below another one!

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 7):
This reminds me TOO much of the Eurovision Songfestival, we will end up with all small eastern european countries voting for their neighbors and get some homophobic Polish president

Very well said!


User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

I think Politically the Lead belogs to the Germany-France couple.
Economically well just look at the GNP figures and some prospective data, and couple it with Demographics.
From an influence point of view, it looks like the more recent members try to exert an influence out of range with their actual clout. See that country with a red and white flag?...

From my vantage point, the structure looks like those adolescents who grow taller too quickly around 12 to 14 years old...
The experts in Brussels mistook precipitation for speed.



Take off and live
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3436 times:

I think Germany is currently easily the leading state, as amply witnessed by Merkel's brilliant diplomacy to achieve the deal on the "new treaty" that will allow the EU to rid itself of most of the unwieldy gridlock situations it found itself in under the previous rules where every country had a veto on most things.

The new rules will allow the EU to pull itself together much better, which will permit it to take decisions and improve the life of it's citizens without a Britain, Czech Republic, Italy or Poland ruining everything to milk one last drop of agricultural subsidies.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3432 times:

Quoting Joni (Reply 12):
a Britain, Czech Republic, Italy or Poland ruining everything to milk one last drop of agricultural subsidies.

Agricultural subsidies? Britain? Are you joking?! It's Britain that tries to reform the CAP and it's your heroes in Germany and France who block it.  Yeah sure



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21471 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3429 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 13):
Agricultural subsidies? Britain? Are you joking?! It's Britain that tries to reform the CAP and it's your heroes in Germany and France who block it.

Blocking what, exactly? The CAP has served its purpose and is being drawn down progressively... the only question is how quickly, exactly, not if or when.


User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Quoting Joni (Reply 12):
The new rules will allow the EU to pull itself together much better, which will permit it to take decisions and improve the life of it's citizens without a Britain, Czech Republic, Italy or Poland ruining everything to milk one last drop of agricultural subsidies

Sorry but that's totally not true.
France is by far the largest beneficiary for EU agricultural subsidies.
Agriculture is IMHO also one of the, if not the most important things that need to change asap, it takes up a disproportional part of the EU budget.

You can put questions as to how the UK (and some other member-states) deals with the EU issue but blaming them for benefiting too much from agricultural subsidies is everything but true.



[edit post]
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3411 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
The CAP has served its purpose and is being drawn down progressively... the only question is how quickly, exactly, not if or when.

Being drawn down progressively? You must be joking! CAP spending is going UP, not down! It'll be another two years before it levels off, and even when it is reduced by the huge (oh, the pain, the pain, the pain) amount of 5% it'll take up 40% of the total budget! Fabulous for France, who gets the biggest chunk of the pie. Quite nice for Germany, Spain and Italy too.

Odd that they don't like it when countries like Britain point out that you've pissed away half the budget on 2% of the total economic output. And they say things like Britain should give up the rebate  Yeah sure



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21471 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3385 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
Being drawn down progressively? You must be joking! CAP spending is going UP, not down! It'll be another two years before it levels off, and even when it is reduced by the huge (oh, the pain, the pain, the pain) amount of 5% it'll take up 40% of the total budget! Fabulous for France, who gets the biggest chunk of the pie. Quite nice for Germany, Spain and Italy too.

a) France still contributes more than they get back.

b) The portion of the EU budget going into the CAP has been shrinking substantially.

c) By proportion to the substantially increased size of the Union, the CAP volume is shrinking, despite significant needs of the sometimes severely underdeveloped regions in the new members which can't grow out of poverty on their own.

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
Odd that they don't like it when countries like Britain point out that you've pissed away half the budget on 2% of the total economic output.

The entire food-related sector of our economies is much larger than that.

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
And they say things like Britain should give up the rebate

The rebate is a special favour which nobody else is getting. It's simply unfair, and with every new member of the Union it gets more untenable.

If there are indeed imbalances which need to be addressed, they need to be coupled with the actual issues, not be a perennial bonus limited to a single country as a result of blackmail decades ago.


User currently offlineMatt727 From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 306 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3381 times:

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 5):
I don't think it is any particular state and it shouldn't be that way either.
The leading state is that who can get the most support from the other states for a given problem and solution.
This is the way it is and rightly so because it is the democratic way.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3374 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
a) France still contributes more than they get back.

a) France still does better than any other "wealthy" EU nation.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
b) The portion of the EU budget going into the CAP has been shrinking substantially.

b) A nice bit of spin there. The EC has been adopting all sorts of ruses to try increase its revenue. The proportion of the EU budget is completely irrelevant, given that as it increases, the size of the agriculture industry doesn't. The CAP budget has been rising each year.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
c) By proportion to the substantially increased size of the Union, the CAP volume is shrinking, despite significant needs of the sometimes severely underdeveloped regions in the new members which can't grow out of poverty on their own.

Yes. And why? Because the likes of France, Germany. Spain and Italy point-blank refused to give up any of their lovely lolly.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
The entire food-related sector of our economies is much larger than that.

Completely irrelevant. The food-related sector of our economies doesn't get the subsidies. Agriculture does.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
The rebate is a special favour which nobody else is getting. It's simply unfair, and with every new member of the Union it gets more untenable.

It wasn't at the time it was instituted, because without it, Britain, the so-called "sick man" of Europe would have been paying the highest contributions of any nation - subsidising the wealthier countries like Germany and France. Now, it IS unfairbut no more unfair than Britain (again) becoming overnight the single biggest contributor to the EU budget, for the EU to piss away against the wall in their usual incompetent manner. Let's get one thing abundantly clear here: If the EU wants Britain to suddenly become the organisation's paymaster, then you'd better start listening when they want to have a really major voice on how you spend it.

That's why no deal was reached, the rest of the EU wanted the rebate removed, AND for Britain's objections on the budget ignored. No dice. Choose which it is.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3358 times:

It's probably freezing in hell but Banco provided the biggest reason why we need the UK in the EU. Without them we will have a even harder time to get rid of those tax money waste called CAP. At least is wasn't expanded with the expansion in 2004 and 2007.

pelican


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5712 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 7):
all small eastern european countries voting for their neighbors and get some homophobic Polish president

while all the small western countries voting for their neighbors and get some coward, defeatist French president?


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 21):
some coward, defeatist French president

WHO is that ?  Confused


User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

Now there is a good opportunity for all other EU member-states to show that France is not the leading nation in the EU,
they just announced that, for the umptiest time, they will not get there budget in order and again won't achieve the max. 3% budget deficit.
All other members should now force France (Italy and Greece too BTW) to not exceed the 3% norm again and finally show budgetary responsibility.

I hope it happens but won't hold my breath.



[edit post]
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21471 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 23):
Now there is a good opportunity for all other EU member-states to show that France is not the leading nation in the EU,
they just announced that, for the umptiest time, they will not get there budget in order and again won't achieve the max. 3% budget deficit.

You're out of date. France has already been forced by the other EU governments to retract that request today.

Quite possible that Sarkozy simply wanted external pressure to be the official reason for hard budget decisions he'd been planning to make anyway. It wouldn't be totally unheard of to transfer the "blame" to the EU.


25 ArniePie : Now I'm truly amazed. Maybe you're right with your reasoning as to why France asked this in the first place.
26 Post contains links Banco : That's not what the French are saying! http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2007/07/10/afx3897856.html
27 Post contains images David L : Thank goodness some people have been paying attention. This whole nonsense about the UK "cherry-picking" in the EU is something I find quite unbeliev
28 Post contains images MD11Engineer : Actually, if I'm talking to my neighbours ( who are mostly family farmers, this means they own e.g. a few acres of land and maybe 20-30 cows), they s
29 Banco : Which does tend to remove the justification for it, doesn't it? The oft-quoted reasoning is to take a non-economic perspective and preserve rural lif
30 MD11Engineer : Banco, If you know farmers, you probably know that most are not very educated outside their field and are, like most factiry workers, tabloid readers.
31 RJdxer : Which Is The Leading State In The EU Stupid me, I thought they were all still independent countries in their own rights with their own soverign govern
32 Banco : No, I didn't know, but I'm not really surprised. It's things like this that do tend to re-inforce the strongly negative image the British have of the
33 Post contains images Frequentflyer : Right on RJ! The EU is now like an extended Family with many estranged members. Again, they thought the more the merrier, however they should have bu
34 MD11Engineer : For the conservative party CDU and even more for the Bavarian CSU, the farmers are their base of voters. The small time farmers get suckered by the l
35 Aloges : And there you have the key issue of the CAP, as far as I am concerned: it was created far in the past when food was actually scarce(r than today) to
36 Klaus : And now guess who's fighting exactly those stronger foundations tooth and nail? Well, it's Britain, at the same time fiercely behind an ever-faster e
37 Post contains links VC10 : From a BBC report dated december 2005 I gathered these facts , which might interest some of youby 5% of the EU's population work in agriculture, which
38 Post contains images Banco : "Common project"? Understand this: Britain doesn't agree with your "common project" and that's not going to change. Funnily enough, neither does the
39 MD11Engineer : This is exactly what I meant in my previous post. I think I read about it in the German "Spioegel" news magazine last year, only that in Germany the
40 Post contains images Klaus : This part is actually one of the less problematic ones as far as I'm aware since it primarily goes into rural infrastructure which is in very bad sha
41 ME AVN FAN : - The European idea is NOT about coal and steel, it is about a continent which has had two world wars INSIDE its sphere and a long and bitter divisio
42 David L : I didn't know that but it's not a surprise. It's not matter of taking time, it's a matter of active resistance. The problem has been there for all to
43 Post contains images Banco : Compared to your absolute struggle to understand "democracy", very little. And yet they have this really nasty habit of rejecting it in referenda. Ne
44 Post contains images Klaus : Which is exactly why it's taking quite a bit more time than it should! Why else do you think some political processes progress at snail's pace even t
45 Travelin man : I must have missed all the peaceful resolutions of conflicts that the EU (as an organization) has been the lead in resolving. Maybe that is the aspir
46 Post contains images Banco : If you think I was comparing the two, it's time you had your brain checked. I found the fact you used similar language and self-justifications to a S
47 Klaus : How many wars have there been within the EU since its inception? And how many between the same countries in the same period before?
48 Post contains images Banco : Ah, the EU's syllogism! No wars in the last 50 years. The EU's been going 50 years. Thus, the EU is the reason for the lack of wars! Marvellous. Let'
49 Travelin man : Ah, you are talking about "intra-EU", rather than European or other international conflicts. After all, the Balkans blew up right under the EU's nose
50 Post contains links VC10 : You might be correct in this statement, however the CAP by injecting money into agriculture was supposed to help rural communities and so help their
51 Travelin man : Yeah, I'd think a little thing called "NATO" and the "Cold War" may have had something to do with the lack of wars. It certainly was not because the
52 Post contains images Banco : But, but, but, that might mean then that peace in Europe isn't necessarily down to the glories of the EU! It might even mean, God-help-us-all, that t
53 Klaus : Since this is a generic distinction which applies to pretty much any organisational idea in history, your equation of the EU and the Soviet Union is
54 Post contains images Banco : Nice try. Right. So... ...is all cobblers. If it's the same then you presumably would back any calls for another referendum in those countries that h
55 David L : But that's the whole point. Everyone knows what the problem is but "the EU" refuses to fix it - inefficiency and/or corruption. Simply saying "it'll
56 Post contains links VC10 : After the Battle of Waterloo in 1815 there was peace in Europe for some 50 years or more with no European Union, or perhaps I am mistaken. Please read
57 ME AVN FAN : - The wars in question were wars between Germany and France, between France and England, between Germany and Denmark, between Italy and France. WW-II
58 Banco : All enforced by British naval power. That was the key to it. Europe still relied on international trade, and Britain was in a position to enforce its
59 Post contains links Joni : Sometimes, but on other occasions they've endorsed European projects in referenda. Finland and Sweden voted to join the EU in referenda, and Spain an
60 David L : Those were polls of what people thought they would think in the future. Once the decision to go to war was made, the numbers were a bit different...
61 VC10 : Joni , you have got it wrong again , as what you quoted was a survey, whereas the duly elected members of parliament in the vote on supporting the ac
62 RJdxer : Maybe you should all go back to monarchies. Things went pretty well with the exception of the occasional French Emperor. How many wars were there in
63 Banco : And yet fascinatingly enough, when a referendum has endorsed European projects, it's never been re-visited, overturned or somehow disregarded, unlike
64 Post contains links and images ME AVN FAN : Not "all" but for sure quite a lot. Not least as Britain was interested in stable structures for trade and expansion of industry. Britain, after the
65 Banco : Pretty much all the maritime powers, so France, Spain, Netherlands, Portugal...
66 Gkirk : The French and Germans are wanting it all to become one big "country" in which all the different countries lose their independent values and such. Th
67 Fumanchewd : Wow, I always despise our election season here in the US. Political hatred and partisan actions disgust me. However, I am glad that we don't have to d
68 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : Spain, France and the Netherlands to some extent may be but Portugal was not. And leading the pack on the European side for centuries was Britain - W
69 Frequentflyer : That's what is refreshing for a European settled in the US! Europeans have their own political limitations, that's why there will never be, in our Li
70 VC10 : I think it actually could come about, but not in the time scale that the politicians want. Given time with travel and easier communications,and the w
71 Post contains images Banco : Oh yes it was! Very much so. How do you think all those people of African origin ended up in Brazil? And where, exactly, is Britain's culpability bei
72 Post contains links VC10 : Actually Portugal was the first european country to start taking slaves from West Africa, and was actually the last to pass legislation to stop it bo
73 Braybuddy : Love to know where this one came from! Wherever it did, it's rubbish.
74 Post contains images Banco : Now, here's a tester. Will ME AVN FAN actually admit to having been wrong? We've been here before, and he wouldn't do it then, will he now? Place you
75 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - the objective in question is a "Union of the Independent States of Europe" and NOT a U.S.E. - I simply WAS in error, and apologize, sooooo sorry !
76 VC10 : ME AVN FAN, I would not worry about it, and over the years I have learnt one or two and perhaps more facts from you. It all goes around. Be happy litt
77 Post contains images Banco : I've obviously just missed them.
78 Travelin man : Isn't that just semantics? It would be interesting to understand what the ultimate desires of the EU are in terms of: - A common defense? (a la a "Eu
79 Banco : And there's the rub, because British policy on these is as follows: No - especially since it would basically be us and France, and Britain's closest
80 ME AVN FAN : - NO, it is NOT semantics but the real question. You mentioned 4 points, so let's tackle them : A) common defence ? Finland, Sweden, Austria and Irel
81 Travelin man : Thanks for the answers. Would it be fair to say that some member states have different viewpoints on those four points than others? Honestly, that see
82 Banco : Nah. It's more to do with Britain's relationship with Europe over eight or nine centuries. England and then Britain has always been politically detac
83 ME AVN FAN : Of course. The ideas differ from country to country. With ever changing "alliances". And then come the languages. Also good translations very often d
84 Post contains images Fumanchewd : 1. We all speak the same languange. Well, kind of. 2. We all share our, relatively short history. Most of us identify ourselves as Americans. EU memb
85 SWISSER : The leading state of the EU? Is that another statement to divide more then unite?I thought the U stood for Union? There is no such thing, only in econ
86 MD11Engineer : Actually there has been pressure by other EU countries for years that countries like Luxemburg, Austria and Switzerland (if it joins) will cease thei
87 Joni : That poll was taken just before the war. You need to decide before you invade a country, if you want to do it - deciding after the fact is a nonsensi
88 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Yes, let's villify and hopefully kick out of the EU everyone who dares to challenge or question or - god forbid - vote against the bright future conc
89 ME AVN FAN : there in fact ARE taxes on money deposited in Swiss banks, BUT the point in Switzerland is that taxes, I mean the "real" ones are a thing of the Cant
90 Post contains images JGPH1A : This would be like the Eurovision song contest "Royaume Uni - nul points"
91 Frequentflyer : Totally agree with you. But for that to happen, I am afraid it will take too long, and a sense of threat, at least economic, for Europe to homogenize
92 L410Turbolet : Comparing apples and oranges. Take Idaho and Oregon as and example: the states have been made out of "nothing" by drawing a line in the map, no prior
93 Braybuddy : I agree that there's a sense of unity in the States that simply doesn't exist in the EU, but the two are completely different entities. Depite the sc
94 Frequentflyer : Am not comparing. Just stating. Nobody said it was difficult, It just is. Agree! (That's the issue in a way...) This being said the EU can be inventi
95 Post contains images Banco : A lot of the citizens don't want any brand of unionism. I don't have the slightest loyalty to "Europe", and nor, I suspect do most Britons. The only
96 Post contains images Frequentflyer : Take it easy Pal, you'll be OK...
97 BHXFAOTIPYYC : Yeh, some small guy from Germany in the 30's thought so too. I do believe you actually believe that too. Meanwhile back in the real world......
98 JGPH1A : That's because it's true - most Europeans are broadly in favour of the EU. Some, like you, are not. But it happened, and it's here to stay, moveon.or
99 Joni : IIRC this was implemented a few years ago already, but I may "RC" wrong. That's not the point. The point is that with 27 member states decisions are
100 Post contains images L410Turbolet : The EU establishment in its vast majority NOT leaning left???
101 Banco : That's not the problem. The problem is the way you view those who fundamentally disagree as being "in the way" of your dream.
102 Joni : Firstly, I don't know exactly what you mean by the "EU establishment" there. The EU consists of democratic countries, and if their governments are le
103 L410Turbolet : Well that's wonderful, but if the rules are (rules set by the EU itself!!!) that it has to by ratified by EVERY SINGLE ONE member state, therefore us
104 Banco : No, they don't at all. I don't know where you get that from. As L410Turbolet says, the treaty is to be ratified by all member states, but you want to
105 David L : I did not say the British people were not against the invasion before it started and I did not say the British people were not against it some time l
106 Joni : We have two separate points here: First of all, there is point that the constitution was ratified, using democratic processes, in a majority of membe
107 ME AVN FAN : I still remember the days of Cliff Richard and other British performers who succeeded in the Eurovision Song Contest fairly often. - the strange thin
108 Post contains images Klaus : No, no... Banco would of course first inquire as to the others' nationality and then just sneer derisively at any non-british europeans...!
109 Klaus : What is your proposal, then?
110 Banco : Without going into endless detail, the concept of subsidiarity is the best one. There are things the EU can do well (irrespective of whether one feel
111 Klaus : The proposed constitution (and after stripping it primarily of its title the remaining treaty) mandates exactly that. And we're apparently both in fu
112 Banco : I've just answered that. And a lot more. Nevertheless, you miss the point entirely - yet again. My objection is not about the "Not the Constitution"
113 Post contains images Klaus : No. You have only declared what the EU was not supposed to do. What should it do? My whole point was what the EU was supposed to do in your opinion.
114 Post contains images Banco : No. I answered the point, you just clearly can't be arsed to understand it. Firstly, as I made clear, I am not prepared to go into endless detail on
115 Klaus : You have quoted the subsidiarity principle. Which says nothing about the what - it only concerns the how and where. Monster threads like this one tak
116 EXTspotter : I no longer agree with UK being in the EU because of the amount of money that is drawn out of the UK for reprocessing in other countries, also we lose
117 ME AVN FAN : what about Britain trying to go ahead on that concept ? By establishing parliaments for each county, by establishing prime-ministers for each county,
118 Post contains images Klaus : Come on... you can't just go out and demand consistency... That would really be shockingly excessive...!
119 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : why not '? it would be truly revolutionary !
120 Post contains images Klaus : Exactly! Now the question is if that idea was what scared Banco off or if it was just my request to finally answer my question above...!
121 Post contains images David L : Scotland left the Union then rejoined? I've never heard that. Are you confusing it with Scotland suffering financially by being excluded from England
122 Post contains images Banco : I just thought I'd wait a couple of weeks like you do when you don't like the way a thread develops.
123 Post contains images Klaus : Oh, sure - if it helps you getting your arguments together, be my guest. I just thought since you were so adamant that you had already answered my qu
124 Banco : Why should I? You never bother to answer questions when they're put to you, you just ignore them and repeat the same old balls you always do. I've an
125 Post contains images Gkirk : He's a mass debater?
126 Klaus : Which answer would that be? I'm usually known for exhaustively dissecting and responding to other people's statements. But nobody is perfect. The onl
127 Post contains images Klaus : No, I can actually be serially serious if needed...!
128 Banco : Yes. Provided it's on what YOU want to talk about. Shall we go back to your endless assertions that Britain was a federal state, and your absolute re
129 Post contains images Klaus : Your diversion is duly noted as such (I'm still waiting for the easy quote you're still owing me), just this correction: I've never claimed that Brit
130 ME AVN FAN : - I suppose he neither would love to see "county-governors" directly elected by the people nor "county-PrimeMinisters" elected by the county-parliame
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