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Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.  
User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

The Canadian Government just announced that it will acquire 6-8 new armed coastal defence ships which will be designed especially for Arctic Operations. Furthermore, a deep-sea port will be built in the Arctic in order to assert Canadian sovereignty in the North. Although I'm not a big fan of Mr. Harper, I applaud him for his recent defence initiatives. The Arctic is one of Canada's greatest resources, and our Forces must have the proper equipment to protect it. Mr. Harper also stated that there would be more announcements to come in relation to beefing-up Canada's military in order to enhance coastal defence.

Canada announced last week that its 12 Halifax-class Frigates will under go a vast modernization program targeting their command and control systems.

KrisYYZ

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2599 times:

Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly is threatening Canada's sovereignty over its arctic territories?  eyebrow  Santa Claus and his army of elves?  santahat 


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineWestJetYQQ From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Santa Claus and his army of elves?

Actually, Yes! They've been keeping in top secret until just now though.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly is threatening Canada's sovereignty over its arctic territories?

Lot's of people. We got stuff they wanna steal  Wink



Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2585 times:

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
The Canadian Government just announced that it will acquire 6-8 new armed coastal defence ships which will be designed especially for Arctic Operations.

Tell Mr. Harper to get some vessels that work, unlike those submarines.  Wink



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2585 times:

Why the worry? I suspect that it includes protection of the environment, protection of native peoples, access to critical resources as well as fishing grounds that they claim as in their exclusive territorial control and for their fleets. Gotta keep those Russian and Chinese factory fishing ships from taking all the fish and destroying the grounds.

User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly is threatening Canada's sovereignty over its arctic territories?    Santa Claus and his army of elves?   

In all seriousness, there are a few concerns about Arctic sovereignty. Denmark and Canada are currently in conflict over Hans Island. Interestingly, Denmark is equipped to navigate the ice-bound waters of that area, while Canada is unable to. The other important issue is the Northwest Passage. As the arctic ice retreats, it will eventually become a lucrative shortcut between Europe and Asia. Canada claims sovereignty over the area, but is unable to enforce it, and other countries, most notably the US, contend that it is international water.


User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3863 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly is threatening Canada's sovereignty over its arctic territories?

Harp seal insurgents?



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Santa Claus and his army of elves?

YES! I knew he was real !

but seriously, Denmark, USA and a handful of other countries have downplayed Canada's right to certain parts of the Arctic territories. Given the important passages and natural resources, Canada must move on this issue before it's too late.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 3):
Tell Mr. Harper to get some vessels that work, unlike those submarines

Well, to be fair, Mr. Harper didn't have any part in that mess. It was my beloved Liberals who managed to buy those non-waterproof submarines.


Some more info on the announcement:
http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?category=1&id=1742

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
Canada announced last week that its 12 Halifax-class Frigates will under go a vast modernization program targeting their command and control systems.

I would hope so:

 duck 



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineArniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2548 times:

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 5):
As the arctic ice retreats, it will eventually become a lucrative shortcut between Europe and Asia. Canada claims sovereignty over the area, but is unable to enforce it, and other countries, most notably the US, contend that it is international water.

Aren't the predictions so that the North pole will be entirely ice-free during summertime?
If so I don't see how Canada's 12 mile zone would make any difference, enough room to sail around it.



[edit post]
User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2540 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 8):

Funny that you should use that pic:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UlUUwgkdDdo

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2532 times:

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 10):

I saw a part of that video and would note that Canada is and has been an important part of world security for years. If I am correct, about 10 or so Canadian soldiers have lost their lives in Afganistan in the last month or so showing their bravery and commitment.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 7):
Denmark, USA and a handful of other countries have downplayed Canada's right to certain parts of the Arctic territories.

I don't know about the "handful of other countries" (including Russia and China as mentioned in reply #4?), but Denmark and the US should be quite easy to convince of a compromise/solution without a need for military investments. What do you in Canada reckon?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2496 times:
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Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
I don't know about the "handful of other countries" (including Russia and China as mentioned in reply #4?), but Denmark and the US should be quite easy to convince of a compromise/solution without a need for military investments. What do you in Canada reckon?

Speak softly and carry a big stick. No country can effectively claim sovereignty over a region if it doesn't have the means to at least try to enforce it. The U.S. (and others) have challenged Canada's Arctic sovereignty claim for decades, and I doubt that a negotiation from a position of abject weakness would accomplish much for Canada.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2489 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
What do you in Canada reckon?

I have lived and worked in tha Arctic as a member of the Canadian Forces.
Canada's commitment to it's own sovereignty for the years 1998-2001 (the years I was there)
Yukon Territory, 3 personnel at Yukon Cadet Camp.
North West Territory, approx 100 personnel in Yellowknife (JTFNA) including- 440 Sqn (Twin Otters 4 aircraft), 1 CRPG supports a total of 59 patrols in the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, Nunavut, and Northern British Colombia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba.
Nunavut Territory, approx 50 personnel at Alert.
If available, from the MP squadrons in the south, 1 possibly 2 NorPat's a year.
Naval presence zero.
It is only recently, within the last 2-3 years that the government started listening to the commanders we had up there. Since the realization of resource recovery in the north, the governments of the Territories have also been applying pressure for an increase in presence and capabilities for our military in the North.
It is about time a real time commitment to Canada's Arctic Sovereignty is made by the federal government.

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlineLH477 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 584 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2480 times:

From my understanding, Many countries including the US is claiming international rights are within Canadian waters, between islands such as Baffin and Ellesmere, etc. Canada claims these waterways as Inland Canadian waterways. Canada has no problems with granting passage rights, but would want to limit traffic to protect the environment.




Come on you gunners......!!!!!
User currently offlineYOWza From Turks and Caicos Islands, joined Jul 2005, 4889 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
Although I'm not a big fan of Mr. Harper, I applaud him for his recent defence initiatives.

 checkmark 

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
Mr. Harper also stated that there would be more announcements to come in relation to beefing-up Canada's military in order to enhance coastal defence.

Retrofitting the frigates was a great start. Let's just hope that subsequent governments don't do anything stupid to these plans or indeed to shut out new ones.

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 5):
other countries, most notably the US, contend that it is international water.

The US can lick my balls. What's ours is ours and I'm sick of the way the US keeps asserting itself abroad for no reason. We're obviously going to give the US and its military full passage rights so why the bloody big song and dance. Assholes.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
I don't know about the "handful of other countries" (including Russia and China as mentioned in reply #4?), but Denmark and the US should be quite easy to convince of a compromise/solution without a need for military investments.

I don't know those Danes can be pesky  Wink As for the US Even if we convince the ruling party of something the other half of the (presently very polarized) country might not stand for it.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineCanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2422 times:

In many ways it's good to see Canada defending its northern regions, but I can't help but think that seeing as the north is where climate change is felt the most, a bunch of military boats etc probably isn't going to help the environmental problems all that much...


CanadianNorth



What could possibly go wrong?
User currently offlinePbottenb From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2404 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 16):
The US can lick my balls. What's ours is ours and I'm sick of the way the US keeps asserting itself abroad for no reason. We're obviously going to give the US and its military full passage rights so why the bloody big song and dance. Assholes.

Wow - you live in a country that is adjacent to the US and our meddling ways, and yet your country feels no need to defend your 2000+ mile border against us. Could it be perhaps that we are not in fact so meddlesome in your country's affairs? Sounds to me that comparative to other countries that exist in the world, the US is actually a pretty good neighbor...yet you call us all assholes...

nice

edited for spelling

[Edited 2007-07-10 03:25:16]

User currently offlineMisbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2391 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly is threatening Canada's sovereignty over its arctic territories? Santa Claus and his army of elves?

Oh no. It's the damn penguins!


User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2384 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 16):
The US can lick my balls. What's ours is ours and I'm sick of the way the US keeps asserting itself abroad for no reason. We're obviously going to give the US and its military full passage rights so why the bloody big song and dance. Assholes.

Big words for someone whos milatary would struggle to defend themselves from a fock of pidgons with a bad case og belly rumbles. Your statement was uncalled for. Grow up. It is all about who wants to spend how much money to make what happen. Give it a rest, grow up and take a hint. The Danes are a bigger issue I would bet than us down south becuase unlike other nations with neighbors soo close we actually support you guys and are open as well. Your ego is the size of the landmass but unfortuneately the sense equals the population with the way you remark on the USA.



There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offlineYOWza From Turks and Caicos Islands, joined Jul 2005, 4889 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2372 times:

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 18):

Wow - you live in a country that is adjacent to the US and our meddling ways, and yet your country feels no need to defend your 2000+ mile border against us. Could it be perhaps that we are not in fact so meddlesome in your country's affairs? Sounds to me that comparative to other countries that exist in the world, the US is actually a pretty good neighbor...yet you call us all assholes...

Pbottenb, let me clarify I was just vocalizing the fact that the US does assert itself (maybe a little too much) overseas and in this particular instance that there was no need for it. Particularly due to the aligned interests our countries share and the dependence that many industries within Canada have on the US. So what I was trying to say was that the bellyaching was asshole-ish behaviour. It was not by any means a direct attack on the core values of what it means to be American, or America itself. Yes, you guys are a good neighbour and I appreciate that. If you guys weren't there we might actually have to spend some money on our armed forces  Wink

Quoting N710PS (Reply 20):
Big words for someone whos milatary would struggle to defend themselves from a fock of pidgons with a bad case og belly rumbles.

Trying to get at me by insulting the admittedly feeble capabilities of my country's armed forces that is simply not going to work.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 20):
It is all about who wants to spend how much money to make what happen.

Ummm, I'm not sure I know what are you talking about?

Quoting N710PS (Reply 20):
Your ego is the size of the landmass but unfortuneately the sense equals the population with the way you remark on the USA.

Sorry bud, that doesn't make any sense.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2367 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):

Everything in this world is commodity and moolah. Throw enough moolah at a nation and you can get anything you want. I was stateing otherwise that your national ego is the size of your nations landmass but that the contents are small like the population of your nation. In other words do not run your mouth when there is little to back it up. Canada is a fine land but some of the population is just a little too cocky for their own good. In other words do not bite the hand that feeds you because the US is your best freind.



There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2356 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
note that Canada is and has been an important part of world security for years

Thanks in no small part to the troops Canada sent to Vietnam.

Signed,

Ann Coulter

Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 19):
Oh no. It's the damn penguins!

Penguins are native to the Antarctic and other areas of the southern hemisphere. There are no penguins in the Arctic.


User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2355 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
don't know about the "handful of other countries" (including Russia and China as mentioned in reply #4?), but Denmark and the US should be quite easy to convince of a compromise/solution without a need for military investments. What do you in Canada reckon?

The US says that since Canada doesn't have defence forces in the North, and other than the small native population, has very few people living up there, how can it claim it. Basically, the US doesn't want to own it, just control it.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 18):
Sounds to me that comparative to other countries that exist in the world, the US is actually a pretty good neighbor...yet you call us all assholes...

Actually, as an American living in Canada, I can categorically say that the US, while peaceful and relatively benign towards Canada's existence to its north, is not a very nice neighbour. The US constantly abuses its power in situations, knowing that Canada has so much reliance on trade with the US, that Canada can really never do anything too serious to rebut. Basically, it's a cut-your-nose-despite-your-face situation. For instance, the lumber tariff dispute. Canada, in a decision upheld by NAFTA, claims the US owes us USD5 Billion in unpaid, illegal trade tariffs levied by the US on Canadian lumber imports. The US refuses to pay Canada, saying it was justified in levying tariffs. However, what can Canada REALLY do, since any attempts to level the playing field would be met with tit-for-tat trade embargoes that would eventually lead to Canada having to give in.

I'm not saying Canada is helpless in it's relationship with the US. In fact, Canada is still the US's largest trading partner and a (hypothetical) all-out trade war between the two countries would seriously hurt the US, but it would hurt Canada more, and the US knows this and throws its weight around accordingly.

Americans all are told "Canada is our best friend", but I don't think a lot of Canadians feel the same anymore. Canadians feel that the US government doesn't respect them anymore, and I can't say I blame them.

While I am generally a pacifist, I can say I agree with this move by the Harper government. Canada needs to assert itself in the north. The Arctic is one of Canada's great natural resources and I'd hate to see Canada lose any bit of that sovereignty.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
25 Halls120 : Canada is right to take this course. All they are doing is reminding the rest of the world of their claims to those waters. The US actively challenge
26 LH423 : Wait a sec. Does anyone else here find it extremely funny that an AMERICAN is criticizing that another nationality is too "cocky for their own good"?
27 YOWza : Thinking like that is mighty dangerous. Money is by no means the solution to the many hairy problems countries today face. Money-minded thinking and
28 LH423 : Actually, I think Canadians might be surprised. I think the average Canadian is no smarter than the average American. I would say that Canadians are
29 YOWza : Nicely said, I would agree with a good amount of that. I got dragged into this debate by another poster with less balanced views, I should have known
30 Mdsh00 : Woah easy there bud. Many of my classmates are Canadian and while a lot of them were smart with the materials (which makes sense since getting into m
31 N710PS : LH my apologies on gramatics and spelling. You are correct that I was rushing though.
32 Post contains images MCIGuy : I won't argue that the CA/US relationship isn't in our best interest. Let's be realistic however, if a major force came over the pole, Canada would be
33 Post contains links Pbottenb : Ok, Fair enough. But perhaps you could do some research before you start the name calling. A simple google search produced this link: http://cdfai.or
34 L-188 : The point is the Canucks want to claim greater then 12 miles, hence the issues. I think you are correct in your assessment. I would go a bit farther
35 Derico : Yes, just like there is a completely, 100% ''TOTAL BS & HYPOCRACY'' guaranteed, treaty in the Antarctic that says that nations around it cannot claim
36 L-188 : I hate to tell you this but one turned up south of Yakutat, Alaska a couple of years ago. Paper had photos of him wandering around the deck of the se
37 Pelican : I see only two countries squabble about territories up there - Denmark and Canada while the US wants to protect an international water way. Maybe bec
38 MD11Engineer : Expect more to come. I can't find the wedsite anymore, but I read on the BBC a few weeks ago that Russia claimed a huge slice of the arctic for it's
39 Post contains images CastleIsland : This doesn't count!
40 WrenchBender : Trying to be funny ? It's not working. Tell it to the 110 Canadians who died in the service of YOUR country in Vietnam, or the 30,000 volunteers who
41 CastleIsland : Anyone who knows me knows that I have the utmost respect for people who serve in the military. It was meant as a shot at Coulter, nothing more.
42 GDB : Good lord, some of the jibes aimed at Canadian forces from some Americans, after another US member, who actually has a clue of what he is talking abou
43 Arrow : That's how I read it. But cut WrenchBender a little slack. Canadians can get prickly when their military contributions over the years are trivialized
44 Post contains images AirPacific747 : Or mighty Denmark   lol! Or was it Canada that downplayed Denmark's right to certain parts of the Arctic territories? Oh yes! Well currently Denmark
45 GDB : Too right Arrow. No D-Day without winning the Battle Of The Atlantic, to help to do this, by 1943, the RCN was the 3rd largest in the world. Not many
46 Post contains images Aloges : I should think that the bloody big hunk of ice covering what we generally refer to as the Arctic Ocean hardly qualifies as a landmass, should I not?
47 Post contains links Alias1024 : Here is an article from Canada's National Post that I read a couple of weeks ago. http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/s...8c6-4bd0-8e64-9d2f080067cc&k
48 TheCol : Yes! Submarines are a huge menace in the north. Especially with the Russians sneaking around up there. We can put under water sonars all over the pla
49 Connies4ever : All well and good to try to exercise control at least to some degree over our Arctic, but these vessels won't get it done. They are _certainly_ not A
50 Halls120 : They better have more than just a "somewhat thicker skin" than the Coast Guard's Deepwater cutters currently under construction, given the problems t
51 L-188 : Bring back the Storis.....better then letting it rot in some storage facility in California eh? Thank god, you don't need another repeat of that russ
52 Halls120 : I wish. Problem is, the Storis is so old, parts availability was becoming a real issue. What the Coast Guard ought to do is what they did in 1942 - t
53 L-188 : God that does make way too much sense.
54 Post contains links and images AirPacific747 : Apparently not.... http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/10/02/135315.php "Researchers hope to find evidence that Greenland may be connected to a huge
55 Connies4ever : Whose hulls are getting rotten with age. Harper's announcement does squat to address the Canadian Coast Guard's requirements, and these will cost bil
56 Arrow : The Monroe Doctrine has no legal validity. A country can pass whatever doctrine it wants to try and influence the affairs of neighbouring nations, bu
57 L-188 : I do have a set of plans for the Storis from the USCG yard. We could start with those.
58 TheCol : They are adequate enough until the replacement ships are built. Mind you, that's if the new ships are built within the next decade. Agreed. Both the
59 Halls120 : An original set? Lucky you.
60 L-188 : Well copies Navel Engineering Division USCGC STORIS WMEC-38 Booklet of Generl Planes Plates 1&8 And Toledo Shipbuilding Co. Drawing 187-12-40 USCG St
61 Polaris : Unfortunately, I have to take great exception with some comments made about the Canadian Armed Forces in this thread. Feeble, some say? Tell that to t
62 Post contains images BigOrange : Although I'm not Canadian I totally agree with you! Not much difference IMHO. If they control it, they choose who goes in and out of there. If they o
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