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German Public TV Ends Tour De France Live Coverage  
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1961 times:

http://www.sport1.de/de/sport/artikel_1462162.html
http://tour.ard.de/tdf/aktuell/kw29/tourausstieg_20070718.htm

After news came in that T-Mobile's Patrik Sinkewitz was tested positive for high levels of testosterone in the Doping A-Test, German Public television networks ARD and ZDF announced that they'll suspend their live coverage of the Tour de France effective immediately. They want to show a clean sport on TV and ARD/ZDF officials have declared that they have a contract on a tour, and a cycling sport, which has to run with clean elements. Until the Patrik Sinkewitz case isn't sorted out, there will not be any live coverage of the tour and if Sinkewitz does test positive in the B-Test, then chances are that there will be no TdF live coverage on German Public Television ever again.

When is this crap with the Tour de Farce ever going to end? Those people are shooting themselves in the foot. If this continues, then eventually the unthinkable could happen and there will no longer be a Tour de France. I used to love watching it in the 90's, but with all that doping, now I could care less about the tour.

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8615 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1945 times:

And...? The only thing that interests me about the tour is what Lance Armstrong took. You've got to hand it to him, must have found something near impossible to detect!  bigthumbsup 


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
The only thing that interests me about the tour is what Lance Armstrong took. You've got to hand it to him, must have found something near impossible to detect!

If he really did take something, then he must have done one hell of a job to not get caught.  Wink


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

This really sucks, now I have to watch it on Eurosport, which has the worst commentators in the whole world.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
And...? The only thing that interests me about the tour is what Lance Armstrong took. You've got to hand it to him, must have found something near impossible to detect! bigthumbsup

Yep. Maybe we'll know more in ten years, maybe not.


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

I seriously doubt that this has anything to do with

Quoting LTU932 (Thread starter):
ARD/ZDF officials have declared that they have a contract on a tour, and a cycling sport, which has to run with clean elements.

Tv stations want ratings, whether a sport is clean or not. There are three German cyclists in the top ten right now but in reality there aren't any expected to take the whole thing this year. Ratings are most likely crap. Ergo, this is an easy way out.


User currently offlineAA61Hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1924 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Thread starter):
They want to show a clean sport on TV

Then I guess they don't show WWE or MLB there, huh?  Wink



Go big or go home
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1912 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
And...? The only thing that interests me about the tour is what Lance Armstrong took. You've got to hand it to him, must have found something near impossible to detect!

If you've ever known some cancer-survivors, you might have known some who have basically become immune to pain. You could drop a bowling ball on their foot and they'll hardly wince. I had an uncle like this, and it was pretty creepy.

I don't believe Armstrong won his last races with drugs (God knows they looked for them). I just think he pushed himself to a point past where any normal human's body would be screaming at them to slow down.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1904 times:

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
Tv stations want ratings, whether a sport is clean or not.

That's true in most cases, but maybe not so much here. In the original story I linked from the ARD Website, one of the concerns that were mentioned was the credibility of the networks. They actively talked to the German racing teams who were going to the TdF and were assured that they're all clean. ARD and ZDF, who from what I see have created a zero-tolerance policy with regards to doping in cycling, would have probably not shown any live coverage of the TdF otherwise, with the Floyd Landis scandal and the doping confessions of other still active and retired cyclists (e.g. Erik Zabel, Bjarne Riis) still in recent memory. That being said, from what I heard the ratings were just fine for both, but with this in mind, I reckon the ratings would have plummeted instantly.

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 5):
Then I guess they don't show WWE or MLB there, huh?

Correct, they don't. That's for networks like DSF and NASN to show.  Wink


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1901 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 6):

If you've ever known some cancer-survivors, you might have known some who have basically become immune to pain. You could drop a bowling ball on their foot and they'll hardly wince. I had an uncle like this, and it was pretty creepy.

I don't believe Armstrong won his last races with drugs (God knows they looked for them). I just think he pushed himself to a point past where any normal human's body would be screaming at them to slow down.

Yea right. He drove against the 150 best cyclists in the world - a lot of them increasing their performance with doping - and he dominated them 7 years in a row clean???

Even if he has the ability to ignore pain like nobody else, there are limits of what muscles can do. You can ignore the pain, but they'll just stop working at some point.


User currently offlineBREmer From Germany, joined May 2004, 551 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1889 times:

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
Tv stations want ratings, whether a sport is clean or not.

Both ARD and ZDF are public stations that are funded by the German broadcast fee. It's their constitutional duty to be an independant servant of information and entertainment to the German Joe Blow, not to make revenue from commercials. So they can care less about the ratings for the Tour de France...

Personally, I applaud these TV stations for this. Turning off the coverage is hopefully going to hurt the sponsors of this medical freak show and make them think.

Lukas


User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1889 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Thread starter):
ARD and ZDF announced that they'll suspend their live coverage of the Tour de France effective immediately.

What, no pictures of empty cargo planes?


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1878 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 8):
Even if he has the ability to ignore pain like nobody else, there are limits of what muscles can do. You can ignore the pain, but they'll just stop working at some point.

Not really. If stimulated enough, and with the body's automatic defences (such as pain threshold) completely shut down, your muscles can break your own bones.


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1876 times:

Quoting BREmer (Reply 9):
Both ARD and ZDF are public stations that are funded by the German broadcast fee. It's their constitutional duty to be an independant servant of information and entertainment to the German Joe Blow, not to make revenue from commercials. So they can care less about the ratings for the Tour de France...

Personally, I applaud these TV stations for this. Turning off the coverage is hopefully going to hurt the sponsors of this medical freak show and make them think.

Thanks. I did not realize that they were public. That makes sense then.

However, thinking that sponsors are going to stop supplemental doping is incorrect. As long as athletes are competitive, some will dope.


User currently offlineRlwynn From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 1064 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1847 times:

Before the tour started I was reading that Skoda (the main sponsor) hadtold the tour that if they did not make complete sure that the race wasvclean they would pull out directly. That means all the team cars gone in the middle of the race.


I can drive faster than you
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8615 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1846 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 6):
If you've ever known some cancer-survivors, you might have known some who have basically become immune to pain. You could drop a bowling ball on their foot and they'll hardly wince.

Well... if athletic performance were just about enduring pain, wouldn't we see people getting busted for painkiller doping instead of EPO and whatnot? And were those cancer survivors you presumably met in any way as immune to exhaustion as Lance Armstrong? Finally, a human body can feel various forms of pain. Dropping a weight on someone's foot isn't the same as cutting it, burning it or ripping it off - sorry for the crude pictures - and neither is exhaustion merely the same as "pain".

There's simply no way anyone could have pulverised seven entire pelotons consisting of the world's best and doped-up cyclists like Lance Armstrong did without doing something very clever about his endurance. Sure, he had an entire team working for him which was an advantage that nobody else had, but still, he had to do his cycling himself.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 8):
Even if he has the ability to ignore pain like nobody else, there are limits of what muscles can do. You can ignore the pain, but they'll just stop working at some point.

Yup. Oversimplifying grossly, you could say that muscles run out of fuel if the body fails to produce that fuel in large enough quantities.

Quoting BREmer (Reply 9):
Both ARD and ZDF are public stations that are funded by the German broadcast fee. (...) So they can care less about the ratings for the Tour de France...

Basically yes, but they do want ratings, too. Just less badly than the corporate stations. For example, we used to get entire tennis tournaments broadcast live on ARD and ZDF when Boris Becker and Steffi Graf were big in their sports. I may be mistaken, but I don't think that happens anymore.

Quoting BREmer (Reply 9):
Personally, I applaud these TV stations for this.

 checkmark  Same here. I remember the long afternoons when my dad used to watch the TdF for hours and hours, sometimes I'd just stick around out of boredom... I wonder if he realises just how much time he wasted?  Silly



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 14):
Yup. Oversimplifying grossly, you could say that muscles run out of fuel if the body fails to produce that fuel in large enough quantities.

Again, oversimplifying a bit, but basically muscles tire when they run low on oxygen and sugar. In the case of sugar, you keep it supplied by timing what you eat. Pasta, for instance is very quickly converted to sugar, while meat of veggies take longer. Right before starting to ride, A cyclist will consume foods that are caluclated to convert to energy during the whole race. In 2 hours, he'll be running on Pasta, in 3 hours, he'll be running on the chicken, in 4 hours he'll be running on the brocolli, etc. etc.

In the case of oxygen, that's the part that deals with pain. Muscles store oxygen, and have a fairly limited ability to replace spent oxygen from the bloodstream. It gets better with conditioning, but a cyclist will always end up using up the oxygen in his muscles faster than it is being replaced. When the oxygen level gets very low, the muscle produces an acid (I believe it's lactic acid - I can't recall). That acid is what causes your muscles to hurt after you've been working out. It is part of your body's warning system telling you to "back off, or I will hurt you". Anyone who has run or cycled long distances will be familiar with the feeling. For normal people, this pain increases to the point where it feels like you've taken a bullet, and obviously you can't continue at the same pace.

But if you can ignore the pain, your muscles are still able to find more oxygen and keep going.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 14):
Well... if athletic performance were just about enduring pain, wouldn't we see people getting busted for painkiller doping instead of EPO and whatnot? And were those cancer survivors you presumably met in any way as immune to exhaustion as Lance Armstrong?

I know for a fact that many sportsmen load up on Tylanol and other painkillers for exactly that purpose. But the effect is quite minimal compared to if your actual pain threshold has changed. Take 5 aspirins, then stick a nail in your arm - it will still hurt.

As far as my uncle went, he was not the sporting type. But he would do creepy stuff like hold his arm over a candle until his skin would actually burn. He genuinely felt no pain.

[Edited 2007-07-18 23:24:48]

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 1806 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
And...? The only thing that interests me about the tour is what Lance Armstrong took. You've got to hand it to him, must have found something near impossible to detect!

As far as I'm aware he was allowed a certain amount of artificial testosterone after his cancer treatment to compensate for the resulting deficiency.

It is not entirely impossible that he was just blessed with extraordinary genes (which does happen) or that his body had a weirdly beneficial reaction to his cancer and/or treatment, but it is also imaginable that his ongoing medication was just used to hide a very clever doping strategy.

I have severe doubts about him, but as anybody else I can't be certain.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
Tv stations want ratings, whether a sport is clean or not. There are three German cyclists in the top ten right now but in reality there aren't any expected to take the whole thing this year. Ratings are most likely crap. Ergo, this is an easy way out.

I am not aware of particularly bad ratings at this time.

ARD and ZDF have no commercials during Tour reporting beyond very few sponsor messages. Both ARD and ZDF are almost commercial-free apart from a few short segments in the early evening.

Their license payments (which is by far their primary source of funds) are allocated by political decisions, not dependent on ratings. If they were visibly and knowingly complicit in promoting a fully-doped Tour de France, they might well lose out during the next round of license adaptation negotiations, so acting on their previously declared conditions for their Tour coverage was simply inevitable.

The had set clear conditions and those conditions have now been violated. There was no choice other than to stop the coverage within hours of the latest doping news - they immediately switched programming back to their non-Tour schedules with only an explanatory reporting segment in the beginning of the planned time slot.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 11):
Not really. If stimulated enough, and with the body's automatic defences (such as pain threshold) completely shut down, your muscles can break your own bones.

Sure. Until they run out of fuel. You can't force additional oxygen to reach your muscles just by will power. It takes extraordinary genes (soon available via gene doping) or EPO to do that.


User currently offlineScottieprecord From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1363 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 1792 times:

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 5):
Then I guess they don't show WWE or MLB there, huh?

Haha. Idk if anyone's told you yet, but the "WWE" isn't a real sport.. It's all an act. Sorry If I had to be the first to tell you...  duck 

I think steroids in cycling is more offensive because it's truly such a pure sport; Similar to baseball in that it's "America's Pastime." But juxtapose that with the NFL, for example, no one really cares if those guys are on steroids, because the main audience is just a bunch of drunken guys looking for some entertainment on an otherwise boring Sunday. Go Cowboys!  Smile

-Mike


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 1783 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
ARD and ZDF have no commercials during Tour reporting beyond very few sponsor messages. Both ARD and ZDF are almost commercial-free apart from a few short segments in the early evening.

Their license payments (which is by far their primary source of funds) are allocated by political decisions, not dependent on ratings. If they were visibly and knowingly complicit in promoting a fully-doped Tour de France, they might well lose out during the next round of license adaptation negotiations, so acting on their previously declared conditions for their Tour coverage was simply inevitable.

yeah...

Quoting BREmer (Reply 9):
Both ARD and ZDF are public stations that are funded by the German broadcast fee. It's their constitutional duty to be an independant servant of information and entertainment to the German Joe Blow, not to make revenue from commercials. So they can care less about the ratings for the Tour de France...



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 12):
Thanks. I did not realize that they were public. That makes sense then.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 1783 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
But if you can ignore the pain, your muscles are still able to find more oxygen and keep going.

No, they don't.

There are multiple mechanisms for energy supply, but all of them get exhausted after a while. Endurance sports like cycling simply require sustained oxygen supply to the muscles. There is simply no way around it. You can't "will" your muscles to break the laws of biology or chemistry - you can only try to force them to reach the limit.

But that limit still exists, and EPO and other substances can actually shift that limit - at a price. Many of these substances have severe long-term side effects.


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 1771 times:

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 5):
Then I guess they don't show WWE or MLB there, huh?

WWE is a total of 1 hour (including commercials) per week, everything else is on Pay-TV just like MLB.

As for the Tour de Epo, I really could care less, though admittedly it's probably still better than the crAp that ARD and ZDF usually show.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8615 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1762 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
Again, oversimplifying a bit, but basically muscles tire when they run low on oxygen and sugar.

That I can agree with... but of course, you need a lot of mitochondria to metabolise the "sugar" and the oxygen into ATP, which is what the muscle fibre specifically uses.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
Muscles store oxygen

Excuse me, but the most I could agree with is that muscles have an oxygen buffer (myoglobin). They don't store the stuff and why would they? It's pretty dangerous, from a protein's point of view... all those radicals just waiting to mess up your structure!

It's true that muscles can work with little external oxygen supply for a short while, the keywords are phosphocreatine and anaerobic glycolysis... but all that is of most use when you suddenly have to run away from that saber-toothed tiger chasing you, not when you're for some strange reason pedalling your merry way all through the Pyrenées. In any case, whenever phosphocreatine is used to help produce ATP for the muscle, your body ends up in oxygen debt meaning that you'll need (much) more oxygen than usual to re-create the phosphocreatine at the latest once you get a chance to rest. That's why you pant after a short spontaneous run.

What you can, and very much so, improve is the ability of the muscles to store glycogen. But to make that available for the muscle, you need to metabolise it first, in the muscle and its mitochondria.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
Muscles (...) have a fairly limited ability to replace spent oxygen from the bloodstream.

Sorry, but no. They have a tremendous ability to increase their oxygen intake, with the oxygen of course taken in from the bloodstream. That's why your oxygen intake increases so very much during exercise.

Then there are the points that muscles need to be controlled and that their "waste" must be metabolised. If someone is exercising above the "steady state" of his or her organism, which means that he's subject to exhaustion, there is a host of metabolites that amass all over the body. You have protons from the lactic acid (yes, that's the one) conflicting with the Ca2+ ions that are crucial to controlling the muscle. There are ADP and phosphate left over from the ATP that the muscle fibre has metabolised. The millions of neurons controlling your every move metabolise, too, and even though their capacity is immense, it is not endless (I'm thinking about neuromuscular junctions in particular).

But that's enough physiology for the day.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
But if you can ignore the pain, your muscles are still able to find more oxygen and keep going.

Where? Where's the muscle supposed to fin oxygen that the lungs cannot transfer into the blood, that the heart cannot pump towards the legs, that the mitochondria cannot use and that can "find" nothing to react with?

I'd just like to know how all this is supposed to add up. Here we have hundreds of cyclists, all very well-exercised and many of them "enhanced" illegally, and there we have one cyclist who crushes all their efforts for seven years in a row? And his performance has not been enhanced artificially? I don't believe it for a second.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1759 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 20):
WWE is a total of 1 hour (including commercials) per week, everything else is on Pay-TV just like MLB.

Where do they even show the WWE? I know they used to show it on Tele 5 for a while, but after Tele 5 switched its programming to show only films, I don't know where they show it at all. Besides, I hardly watch the WWE nowadays anyway, ever since they started censoring the falls and hits in their recap shows (e.g. in the WWE Experience show, which recaps Raw and Smackdown and shows only still pictures and sounds of the Pay-Per-View events they recap).

Anyway, I agree with the decision of ARD and ZDF to terminate live coverage of the Tour de Farce. A precedent has to be set and a line drawn somewhere. Just remember: sports teams also live from the money they get paid from broadcast licences granted to TV networks.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1755 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22):
Just remember: sports teams also live from the money they get paid from broadcast licences granted to TV networks.

And the network coverage provides a substantial PR value for the team sponsors paying the professional athletes which would evaporate together with that coverage.


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1755 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22):
Where do they even show the WWE?

DSF, saturdays at around 10pm, and again tuesdays, same time.


25 Post contains images DL021 : Maybe he took Bugs "Michaels Secret Stuff". That'd explain the seemingly superhuman effort. Or maybe he did nothing wrong and people just wanted him
26 Post contains images Aloges : I think it's the Weasley Twins myself... And just as much, I remember the smugness of US a.netters about Armstrong winning the "cheese eating surrend
27 Post contains images LTU932 : They're midi-chlorians.
28 AsstChiefMark : Maybe the German racer below never saw the dog because he all jacked up on Macho Crotcho injections.
29 Pelican : This is inconsistent at best, if they were serious about their no doping policy ARD and ZDF should also not show the Olympics, especially Peking 2008.
30 LTBEWR : Good to see some media organizations have some guts to say no to the farce the TdF has become. Here in the USA, it is now on a minor cable network cal
31 LTU932 : FWIW, ESPN Latin America still has some live coverage of the TdF on TV.
32 Post contains images Falcon84 : Sounds more like they're shooting themselves in the ass. Ah, yes, the European obsession with Lance, his 7 wins, and the fact that he's never had any
33 Post contains images LTU932 : BTW: There was a poll in the ARD page I linked, asking viewers if they agree with ARD and ZDF terminating live coverage of the TdF until further noti
34 DL021 : I knew someone would explain that one......
35 Klaus : Sure. But maybe, just maybe, it's the fact that the winners both before and after Lance are successively discovered to have doped and those seven win
36 Post contains images Aloges : Of course... just because he's an American, I cannot live with the fact that so far he's not proven guilty, i.e. innocent. Truly, truly, if he were F
37 Oli80 : This, I would be interested to see too. I understand why they are doing this, and do respect them for it, but they have to be consistent now - they'v
38 Aloges : This: Of course Armstrong is de iure innocent. I just don't buy anymore that he's also de facto innocent.
39 Post contains links Aloges : Speaking of which: Sat.1 überträgt ab sofort die Tour de France. One of them will start broadcasting the TdF today. Interestingly enough, it's the
40 Jonathan-l : If it really were about the French disliking American athletes who conquer everything, then Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods would get the same crap. If
41 Oli80 : Which French events would these be?
42 Aloges : Swap Pete Sampras for Jim Courier and/or Andre Agassi and it's the French Open.
43 Jonathan-l : Good remarks. Pete Sampras didn't win the French Open. Agassi was a "chouchou" (one the crowds favored).
44 Post contains images TheSonntag : The private german TV station Sat.1 (which recently laid off everybody who was even remotely trying to do some quality TV) overtook the rights and bro
45 Post contains images LTU932 : SAT 1 wasn't that bad when I left the country 10 years ago. I already know that with Beckmann and Kerner leaving, their Bundesliga coverage went down
46 Post contains images TheSonntag : The only reason to watch Sat.1 for years The biggest problem is that Sat.1 was bought up by international investors who have no clue whatsoever about
47 Post contains images LTU932 : They also used to show Louis de Funès films back in the early 90's. Those were cool films.
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