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Is It True Or Hoax?  
User currently onlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2613 posts, RR: 5
Posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

According to this

http://reason.com/blog/show/121523.html

a man has been convicted of second-degree murder in the death of a police officer, even though he was hiding in a woods 30 miles away at the time.

Well, if it's true, you have some interesting law down there. Even the worst commie dictators weren't able to come up with something like this.

I really hope that the whole thing is hoax.

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

I don't give much creedence to blogs so, here is an article from a local website:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...CFBDC8625731E0012B1E8?OpenDocument

It irritates me when troopers think they can go as fast as they can even with their lights and sirens on. They pose a danger to other drivers. The article says the trooper had consumed alcohol, but there were trace amounts. Okay. But there is no excuse for speeding in a construction zone and there is no excuse for not paying attention. The accused should have these charges dropped.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

I think it's a good idea. Just take a look at programs like COPS and similar shows on Court TV, where you see tons of people who decide to run from the law, because the penalties for running away are often trivial, compared to whatever the original charge would have been (robbery, DUI, whatever). I think it is a good message to send to everyone - Don't run from police, or else we will lay EVERYTHING that happens as a result of your flight on your doorstep.

User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2108 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):
I think it is a good message to send to everyone

I disagree and say it's a terrible message to send to lawyers: penalise someone for something he had no direct influence on, and you can sue employers for damages if they fire employees who run amok over the issue. Of course people need to mind the consequences of their actions - but not the actions of others who should very much be able to do just the same.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2086 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 3):
I disagree and say it's a terrible message to send to lawyers: penalise someone for something he had no direct influence on, and you can sue employers for damages if they fire employees who run amok over the issue.

No, I'm talking about a very specific issue - running from police.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2078 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Thread starter):
a man has been convicted of second-degree murder in the death of a police officer, even though he was hiding in a woods 30 miles away at the time.

The man committed an armed robbery, aggravated assault, and attempted murder of a law enforcement officer.

The trooper was responding to a man hunt as the result of the criminals activity and was killed in a traffic accident in the process of responding to the crime.

Under Virginias Felony Murder statute any death that occurs as a result of the commission of a felony is a murder by the person who perpetrated the felony. The troopers death was just such a death.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 1):
Okay. But there is no excuse for speeding in a construction zone

Including responding to a crime in progress with an armed fugative?

Next time you need the police, I'll make sure to obey the speed limit.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 3):
penalise someone for something he had no direct influence on

He sure as hell had a direct influence on it.

Why else do you think there was a multi-county call up?


User currently offlineORFflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2064 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):

Good post - I agree with all of it. I do have a question though, you cite Virginia's statue, yet this happened in Missouri. Essentially the same law in both states?


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
He sure as hell had a direct influence on it.

He had no influence on the blood alcohol level of the trooper or his driving skills. Of course running from the police puts him at an even bigger disadvantage, as it should, but how did he actually make the man crash?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2053 times:

Ooops, sorry.

Was posting in another window about Virginia law regarding another incident involving state law vs city ordinance..

Should be Missouri.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):
Of course running from the police puts him at an even bigger disadvantage, as it should, but how did he actually make the man crash?

He doesn't need to make the man crash.

The death only has to be a result of the crime perpetrated, not directly inflicted by the perpatrator of the crime.

A police response is the natural result of a crime of this order. An accident while in the conduct of that response is a direct result of the response occuring. In short, he couldn't have gotten into the fatal accident if he wasn't responding to the crime. Ergo, the accident is a result of the response which is a result of the crime.


User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2028 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Including responding to a crime in progress with an armed fugative?

Next time you need the police, I'll make sure to obey the speed limit.

Good. I know what I am about to say covers a differet state and different circumstances, but my brother is a volunteer EMT in rural Eastern Washington. When he responds, he is allowed to only go 10MPH over the limit in extreme cases, otherwise it is the limit and nothing more even in the ambulance. In a costruction zone, whether it is police responding to an incident or simply on patrol, they should slow down anyway. Anyone, police or civilian, are endagering the lives of road crew workers by going over the posted limit in a construction zone. In the article, the officer could not see over the hill anyway.

There should be an extra penalty for running from the law. But, because the officer involved was not "on scene" but rather "on his way" IMO does not mean there shoud be an added penalty. IMO, the officer made his own mistakes in speeding and exercised poor judgement.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
A police response is the natural result of a crime of this order. An accident while in the conduct of that response is a direct result of the response occuring. In short, he couldn't have gotten into the fatal accident if he wasn't responding to the crime. Ergo, the accident is a result of the response which is a result of the crime.

I have no problem with the charges for felony assaultt and everything else, but Murder for an accident?

I want to see how that case of the Cardinal's pticher's father goes against the tow truck driver and motorist. According to this precedent, they are guilty of 2nd Degree Murder for Car Failure.


Totally Piss Poor ruling.

Cop wouldn't have been in an accident if he had been cautious and alert while driving. He was driving wrecklessly, whether required for his job or not, and payed the price.


What if he had had a prostitute giving him a BJ on the way to the scene?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2017 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):

Still - an indirect influence. Nobody plans on being hunted by an - apparently - less-than-stellar driver policeman.  tombstone  to him BTW.

Anyway, I can't claim sufficient knowledge of the laws in question, but is this issue of indirect influence the reason for the second-degree murder charge as opposed to first-degree? And would these charges matter much in addition to his possible future sentences for these crimes?

Quote:
Stallmann was convicted of 10 felonies, including burglary and assaulting a law enforcement officer.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2013 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 11):
According to this precedent, they are guilty of 2nd Degree Murder for Car Failure.

Were they invloved in the comission of a felony?

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 11):
Cop wouldn't have been in an accident if he had been cautious and alert while driving.

The defense failed to prove that.

Do you want to share something with us that apparently the defense didn't know?


User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2003 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
A police response is the natural result of a crime of this order. An accident while in the conduct of that response is a direct result of the response occuring. In short, he couldn't have gotten into the fatal accident if he wasn't responding to the crime. Ergo, the accident is a result of the response which is a result of the crime.

Interesting logic but doesn't work for American law. In order for a person to be guilty of a crime in the U.S. he has to posses both the criminal mind and criminal intent. I don't see how it is possible to prove that the suspect had the intention of making a trooper 30 miles away wreck his car. This case will probably be overturned.


User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1993 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
The defense failed to prove that.

Do you want to share something with us that apparently the defense didn't know?

How can the prosocution prove that someone who
1. Had Alcohol
2. Was Late to Callout
3. Died in a Crash of his own doing

was competent to drive,.

This issue went to a Jury that was too emotionally tied to the issue, and will be revoked on appeal.

Felony or not, this guy shouldn't be charged with Secondary Murder because of a Tardy Wreckless Cop.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1989 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
Were they invloved in the comission of a felony?

Cops should not be above the law.
They are here to serve and Protect. Not get Preferential treatment for Stupidity.

I mean hell the Cop Died because he ran into a 2 Ton Weapon. Was the driver of that car charged with a Felony? He was more responsible for the death of that cop than the guy 30 miles away.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1985 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
Still - an indirect influence.

It doesn't matter.

Any death as a result of the crime.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 14):
In order for a person to be guilty of a crime in the U.S. he has to posses both the criminal mind and criminal intent.

No, not stricltly true.

There are generally four levels of Mens Rea.

1. Intent
2. Knowlege
3. Recklessness
4. Negligence


In order to be guilty of a crime that requires the knowing or willing mental states you would be right.

If all crimes required the first two levels, how would manslaughter or ciminal negligence be prosecuted?

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 14):
I don't see how it is possible to prove that the suspect had the intention of making a trooper 30 miles away wreck his car.

Don't need to.

The only proof of intent with this situation was for the original crime, the robbery, aggravated assault and attempted murder of a law enforcement officer.

The Felony Homicide does not require proof of intent because it falls under the third or fourth level of Mens Rea.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1980 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 15):
How can the prosocution prove that someone who
1. Had Alcohol
2. Was Late to Callout
3. Died in a Crash of his own doing

was competent to drive,.

BAC

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 16):
Cops should not be above the law.
They are here to serve and Protect. Not get Preferential treatment for Stupidity.

That isn't what I asked.

Were the tow truck driver and motorist involved in a felony?

If they weren't, they can't be charged with Felony Murder.

Now, were they involved in a Felony? Yes or No.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 16):
I mean hell the Cop Died because he ran into a 2 Ton Weapon. Was the driver of that car charged with a Felony?

Was the driver involved in a Felony?

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 16):
He was more responsible for the death of that cop than the guy 30 miles away.

How so?


User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1966 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 18):
Were the tow truck driver and motorist involved in a felony?

If they weren't, they can't be charged with Felony Murder.

Now, were they involved in a Felony? Yes or No.

No,
And this Law eventually will be ruled unconstitutional for that very reason.

If the only precedent is that a person has committed a felony crime, then this means cruel and unusual punishment. Since it is a charge for a crime that wouldn't have occurred under normal circumstances.

As a defense Lawyer, I would do this at the appeal.

1. Since he was late.
2. Driving to fast.

How can we prove he wasn't going to break another work rule and go get donuts instead?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1965 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 18):

If the car hadn't been there, the cop wouldn't have hit it and died. The felony, at this point in real life would be that to cause 2nd degree murder, someoen would have had to have had intent to swerve and hit a car.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1963 times:

Stallmann’s lawyer, Robert Taaffe Jr., said what happened to Tatoian doesn’t meet the definition of the felony murder law and hopes the appeals court will overturn the conviction.

"The jury wanted to do something for Trooper Tatoian, it’s a gut instinct when you’re looking at this woman who lost her husband," Taaffe said. "Although it’s a tragedy, he was responsible for his own conduct. He was going to work and he died in a car crash. It’s not a criminal case."


 checkmark 

Sad story, but not murder.


User currently offlineMaidensgator From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 945 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1963 times:

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 6):
Good post - I agree with all of it. I do have a question though, you cite Virginia's statue, yet this happened in Missouri. Essentially the same law in both states?

All 50 states have some form of felony murder law. It originated in the common law hundreds of years ago. Most states limit the associated felonies to robbery, rape, arson, burglary, and kidnapping... Also, most states have passed statutes defining felony murder rather than rely on the common law....



The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1960 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 19):
No,
And this Law eventually will be ruled unconstitutional for that very reason.

That doesn't even make sense.

Someone that you introduced as a one off example doesn't meet the standards for being charged with the crime, making your example a complete load of garbage... so a person who does meet the standards will have his case ruled unconstitutional because? Because of what exactly?

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 19):
If the only precedent is that a person has committed a felony crime, then this means cruel and unusual punishment.

How does this constitute cruel and unusual punishment?

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 19):
Since it is a charge for a crime that wouldn't have occurred under normal circumstances.

No crimes occur under normal circumstances.

I hope you realize how garbage your argument is.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 19):
As a defense Lawyer, I would do this at the appeal.

Maybe you should work on that lawyer part before trying to overturn laws on constitutional grounds or representing clients.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 20):
If the car hadn't been there, the cop wouldn't have hit it and died.

The car being there isn't a felony.

You fall flat on your face again.


User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1935 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 23):
omeone that you introduced as a one off example doesn't meet the standards for being charged with the crime, making your example a complete load of garbage... so a person who does meet the standards will have his case ruled unconstitutional because? Because of what exactly?

How can a person be charged with the death of someone 30 miles away?
Answer me that.

Felony law or not.
that is the point I am making.


Because if that is all it takes, then everytime a cop croaks on the job, some joe within 30 miles can be blamed.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
25 CasInterest : Neither is the guy being 30 miles away, but somehow that caused this troopers death? If the trooper had been shot and killed by the guy, I would agre
26 MDorBust : Because that person was responding in a professional capacity to a crime committed by the person charged. Why don't you take a break from posting and
27 CasInterest : he should be charge for that. I am not disputing that. Right so if ALL he had felony marijuana possession then he still would have been charged? That
28 MD11Engineer : Back from my civil defense days: In Germany the driver of an emergency vehicle can use special rights (Sonerrechte) when in response to an emergency o
29 Post contains links Airfoilsguy : http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903 2903.01 Aggravated murder. (A) No person shall purposely, and with prior calculation and design, cause the death of an
30 MDorBust : If all he had done was a felony marijuana charge I highly doubt there would have been a multi-county call up and man hunt. But yes, if all he had don
31 CasInterest : 2) Commits or attempts to commit any felony, and, in the perpetration or the attempted perpetration of such felony or in the flight from the perpetrat
32 CasInterest : Neither did his crash
33 CastleIsland : One point that needs clarification for me is the language used in the blog cited by the original poster: "Missouri law allows a felony murder charge w
34 MDorBust : That's great. Too bad for him he didn't commit the crime in Ohio. Was there a point to your post other than to introduce a law that has absolutely no
35 AirSpare : When he was hiding, was a he a suspect or en escapee that had been convicted? I thought the requirements were 50 bucks and internet access. Just beca
36 Post contains images CastleIsland : That clears it up. I wouldn't think so. I would expect that there is some legal definition of Immediate Flight. It strikes me that if a manhunt is go
37 MDorBust : He was a suspect. Hiding in the woods after committing an impressive string of felonies. Only after being found guilty of those felonies can you be f
38 AirSpare : I want to agree with it the law, but then at another level, there seems like something is wrong here. It is sad that the officer died, I just really
39 777236ER : Really? So if I'm speeding and a police car starts to follow me, and through no fault of my own the police car crashes into a school bus killing 20,
40 MDorBust : Ask yourself why. The firetruck in the example was responding to a fire. The Trooper was responding to a crime in progress. I think what people objec
41 CastleIsland : Speeding in and of itself is not a felony, so no. If you are speeding in flight from police after committing a felony, then yes, you could be charged
42 777236ER : OK, well fraud is a felony. If on the way to investigate my fraud a tyre bursts on the police car, swerving into a bus killing 20 children, would I b
43 AirSpare : Bust, I feel bad for the cop and especially his family. But being 30 miles away and driving to fast for conditions was poor judgment on his part. At t
44 Post contains images MDorBust : It probably was. But, as this law is written that isn't taken into account. This law is blind to the circumstances of the death. It only accounts for
45 CastleIsland : I'm not a legal expert, but here's my thought: If you are fleeing the scene of any felony, including fraud and the police are chasing you, then yes,
46 MDorBust : My understanding of the law is that yes, the suspect must be convicted of another felony crime or convicted of attempting to commit another felony cr
47 CasInterest : Explain to me how this guy in Immediate Flight was indirectly responsible for the death of the Sniper 30 miles away driving a car. There was no proxi
48 AirSpare : The idiocy is the law. Not the coppers (unless you can claim shooting another cop in the face is idiocy, but shit happens). Can you still go to jail
49 MDorBust : Read the thread? Proximity is required by the OHIO law. This case was tried under Missiouri law which has no proximity requirement.
50 CasInterest : See this is the problem, his commission of a Felony or attempt at it, did not directly affect this cop. The Event that led to this Cop's death was 10
51 MaidensGator : As I stated earlier in the thread, the common law rule from which the various statutes evolved only applied the felony murder rule to robbery, rape,
52 MDorBust : Then why was the trooper driving to the scene of the crime? Random coincidence? Nope, the trooper was summoned to that location as a direct result of
53 CasInterest : [ Explain to me how the trooper was involved in the Immediate Flight. He wasn't engaged. The only thing he did was arrive late to rollcall, and rushed
54 777236ER : I still don't understand the need for the idea though. If an arson leads to a death, then the person should be charged with arson and a manslaughter
55 MDorBust : Simple question: The trooper was enroute to the scene of a felony crime to participate in a continuing man hunt for the suspect at the time of his de
56 MDorBust : In most states that have a Felony Murder law it is a higher level of felony than Manslaughter is. Also, Manslaughter and Murder charges are often han
57 WildcatYXU : He was charged, tried and convicted for what he had done. He shouldn't be responsible for somebody's momentary failure. Period. You just said it. The
58 MDorBust : Even if he was responsible for putting the person in the position to have that momentary failure? Congratulations. This has never been disputed. It i
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