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Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov  
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4306 posts, RR: 11
Posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20...attn_national_foreign_editors_ytop

"The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the package has not yet been announced, said it would include selling Saudi Arabia advanced weapons known as Joint Direct Attack Munitions, or JDAMs. JDAMs convert simple gravity bombs into accurate "smart" weapons."

"The package also will include new weapons for the United Arab Emirates , another U.S. ally in the Persian Gulf, and both military and economic support to Egypt . Other details of the proposed arms sales weren't immediately available Friday."

"Israel has asked for access to the Air Force's most advanced fighter jet, the F-22 Raptor, and its stealth technology, which makes the aircraft more difficult to see on radar."


- - - - - -

Since this is such a peaceful corner of the world, let's just give them some weapons generations ahead of their current arsenal to, I'm sure, gather dust to never be used.

If any other country tries to sell weapons to another, they face threats and even economic sanctions by the United States government.

But, when it's time to Do as I do... "won't do as I said".

You can be guaranteed that these "smart gravity" weapons will be used within 10 years against innocent civilians within or outside Saudi Arabia, and the F-22 Raptors will fly over Lebanon or the West Bank doing the same thing. The countries in this region are a threat to world peace (by this I'm not saying they are evil, but the plain truth is they are muddled in conflicts and instability), and a particular country wants to feed more weapons??

Too bad the world doesn't have the balls to threaten the US with economic sanctions. Sure it would hurt the world economy, but a combined EU, China, Japan, Mexico/Latin America, Russia embargo on the US would be far more devastating on the one country facing them. But this cannot be allowed to stand. It's 100% disgusting and it makes me sick.


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2516 times:

Those nations are scared right now, and they're scared of 2 things: 1. Iraq going into all-out civil war, and 2. Iran picking up the pieces of a shattered Iran, annexing it, and become the undisputed regional superpower.

That's what is driving those deals. I suppose we could leave them defenseless, but if Iran breaks out, selling JDAM's to Saudi Arabia will be the least of the worries in that region.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4306 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
That's what is driving those deals. I suppose we could leave them defenseless, but if Iran breaks out, selling JDAM's to Saudi Arabia will be the least of the worries in that region.

My problem is that this is entirely purely about $$, masked under the guise of helping allies.

The bottom line is that Israel has quite a capable military, and the PRODUCE their own weaponry, some of it quite good for world standards. They have bright educated people, they don't need more infusion of outside.

And the Arab countries can do the same thing, and continue developing their own weaponry. Saudi Arabia, the UAE, etc are not exactly suffering with U$D 80 oil.

Neither need this, Iran does not have weapons that are so far ahead to warrant this. Very troublesome.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2501 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
My problem is that this is entirely purely about $$, masked under the guise of helping allies.

Free enterprise, Derico. It's a win-win deal. Our friends get some weapons to defend themselves, and we get the cash from said sale of weapons.

As long as the really bad guys are on the prowl, there will be need for such weapons, unfortunately. It's a sad reality of a far-from-perfect world.

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
Neither need this, Iran does not have weapons that are so far ahead to warrant this.

For a smart guy like yourself, that's a little naive, Derico. You arm yourself the best you can, and screw your potential enemy. If Iran is behind in such weaponry, maybe they'll think twice about backing up all the threats they've made in the last year or so. If their potential adversaries outgun them, that's just too bad for them.

Iran's not-so-subtle hint at acquiring nuclear weapons means they're one-up on the others, and if the other nations' in the region can deter that, it's all for the better in, as I said, in a less than perfect planet.


User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3649 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2485 times:

If you think they can't or won't buy these things from other sources, you are either very naive or simply stupid.

User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
combined EU, China, Japan, Mexico/Latin America, Russia embargo on the US

Some of these countries you mention have been selling weapons to Iran, and sold weapons to Iraq during the embargo. They are hardly in a position of moral superiority.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

1) The US is not going to sell the F-22 to Isreal because we are already pissed off about technology transfers
2) Last time I check, Saudi Arabia, the UAE nor Eqypt were involved in insurgent war, so the Iran/Iraq comparison is invalid.
3) JDAM is just a guidance package for pre-existing weapons. It's not an uber special super weapon like some people pretend. The Paveway III has the same accuracy and is already in service with these nations.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
If any other country tries to sell weapons to another, they face threats and even economic sanctions by the United States government.

Really?

Then why does the US still talk to Russia, who's largest industry is arms sales?

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Sure it would hurt the world economy, but a combined EU, China, Japan, Mexico/Latin America, Russia embargo

LOL

China and Russia? An embargo because of arms sales? That's rich. Too bad China and Russia have huge international arms industries.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Our friends get some weapons to defend themselves, and we get the cash from said sale of weapons.

I'm not convinced that Saudi Arabia is our friend.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2366 times:

There he goes again . . . "Outrageous" and "US Gov't".

Nothing outrageous about free enterprise or selling weapons to your friends to protect them from their enemies.

Ummm, lemme see, this sort of thing has gone on in every inductrialized country in the world for decades.

Oh, and Derico . . where's your outrage over the Iranian shoulder fired missiles sold to the Iraqis? Where's the "Completely Outrageous Behavior of the Iranian Gov" thread?

 sarcastic 


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2341 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
The bottom line is that Israel has quite a capable military, and the PRODUCE their own weaponry, some of it quite good for world standards. They have bright educated people, they don't need more infusion of outside.

The bottom line is, the sale of arms to Israel.

Be honest here Derico, isn't that what the real problem you have with this?


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4306 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 9):
The bottom line is, the sale of arms to Israel.

Be honest here Derico, isn't that what the real problem you have with this?

No, since I'm not anti-Israel whatsoever, I'm pro-Israel, you should try again.

I'm against adding kerosene to a burning sofa inside a house...

Which is exactly what this is about.

So now, what would be so wrong if China and Russia arm Iran? Well, since the United States is arming Saudi Arabia and Egypt, that would be more than enough justification. Let alone justifying Iran's nuclear weapons.

Call me 'simplistic', but perhaps what is needed in the upper reaches of world governments, is that, a bit more simplicity. Of realizing that there is a cause and effect, and that arming one group of countries in a war-zone region, will for sure make the other side arm further.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2291 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 5):
Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
combined EU, China, Japan, Mexico/Latin America, Russia embargo on the US

Some of these countries you mention have been selling weapons to Iran, and sold weapons to Iraq during the embargo. They are hardly in a position of moral superiority.

Exactly. Weapons sales, unfortunately, is a huge business for any decent-sized nation. It is, sadly, part of a world where there are greedy people, extremely bad people, and people who just don't give a shit.

But the U.S. has it's interests, Derico, and we feel that these sales are in our best interest, and that of our allies.

And while I agree that Saudi Arabia is a dubious ally, the fact remains that to let it fall into the hands of Iran would be disasterous for the world.


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2288 times:

I really don't get the Saudi Arabia thing...probably never will. We're giving advanced weapons and lots of money to a country who WE KNOW supports and houses more known terrorists than any other middle eastern country (hell, probably more than ANY other country). All because of oil...makes me sick.

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2284 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 12):
I really don't get the Saudi Arabia thing...probably never will. We're giving advanced weapons and lots of money to a country who WE KNOW supports and houses more known terrorists than any other middle eastern country (hell, probably more than ANY other country). All because of oil...makes me sick.

Fine, let's let Iran take over the Peninsula, squeeze the west even further for their support of Israel, have gas prices go through the roof they're already at, and cripple our economy. Sound good do you?

The cold, hard truth of HERE AND NOW, is that oil drives the economies of the world. We need it for transportation, for heating houses, etc. It's vital. Which is why this nation, and the world, in fact, need a "go to the moon" effort to get off oil, and on to renewable energy sources that will make oil politics obsolete. It's the big problem of the first half of this century, in my view.

But until then, you simply cannot let the vital oil supply fall into the laps of Iran, even if Saudi is a dubious "friend".


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2279 times:

@Falcon84

I realize all of that...doesn't change the fact that it makes me sick to think about it.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Nothing outrageous about free enterprise or selling weapons to your friends to protect them from their enemies.

Except of course if it's Russia selling weapons to Venezuela, then it's the scandal of the century. The arms trade is a dirty business, and responsible governments should put in place SOME ethical standards regarding those to whom they sell these weapons. Being a fully fledged peaceful multi-party democracy who doesn't/hasn't threatened a neighbouring state in the last 20 years, would be a good start.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
So now, what would be so wrong if China and Russia arm Iran? Well, since the United States is arming Saudi Arabia and Egypt, that would be more than enough justification. Let alone justifying Iran's nuclear weapons.

While I agree that giving arms to Saudi Arabia and Egypt isn't a very good way to convince Iran to give up its nuclear ambitions, there is a big difference between that and Russia and China arming Iran. Iran is far more of an international troublemaker than any other country in the region.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2269 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Iran is far more of an international troublemaker than any other country in the region.

*cough*coalitionofthe'willing'*cough*


User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2768 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
The cold, hard truth of HERE AND NOW, is that oil drives the economies of the world.

If this is correct, why aren't we buddying up to Canada? Something stinks with regard to the connection between Saudi Arabia and the Bush Administration and I have to believe it's not simply the smell of crude oil.

"Alberta's oilsands could become the single biggest contributor to the world's supply within 10 years, says a report released Wednesday by CIBC World Markets. That would mean a global shift in oil dominance from Saudi Arabia and the Middle East to Canada."


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2255 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
*cough*coalitionofthe'willing'*cough*

Think whatever you like about the Iraq invasion, but the president of the United States does not go around saying that certain other nations should be wiped off the map.

I don't care for this deal much either because of the Saudi aspect, but there is a big difference between Saudi Arabia and Iran.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2250 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Iran is far more of an international troublemaker than any other country in the region.


*cough*coalitionofthe'willing'*cough*

The coaliting of the willing, as the President so ignorantly stated, is the reason why we have such a mess in the Middle East right now, and why these arms sales are necessary. If I were to think Dick Cheney were calling all the shots, I'd say maybe that was one of the goals of this war-to scare our friends so much they'd have to buy billions in arms for us.

What an ephipany. And, seriously, I wouldn't put anything by this man who runs his own private government.

[Edited 2007-07-28 20:11:46]

User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2250 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
but the president of the United States does not go around saying that certain other nations should be wiped off the map.

No, he just goes ahead and invades them. Potato, po-tah-to. Iran might be a troublemaker, but their not the only one in the region.


User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2768 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2249 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):

No, he just goes ahead and invades them.

Que the, "Congress gave Bush approval..." crowd.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 22):
Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):

No, he just goes ahead and invades them.

Que the, "Congress gave Bush approval..." crowd.

Actually, que the "the Democrats approved the war" crowd.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2231 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 15):
Except of course if it's Russia selling weapons to Venezuela, then it's the scandal of the century.

So, what sanctions did the US impose on Russia for the sale of 100,000 AK-47 rifles?

The MI-17 helicopters?

The MI-35 helicopters?

The MI-26 helicopters?

The Kilo class submarines?

The SU-30 fighters?


25 PPVRA : Both Russia and the USA need to get their military lobbyist under control. . .
26 Mir : The purpose of the invasion was not to destroy Iraq, it was to get rid of Saddam Hussein's government. Potato, grapefruit. What? -Mir
27 Post contains images PPVRA : Correct, "que" is Portuguese for "what" I believe they meant to say "cue", though. [Edited 2007-07-28 21:13:55]
28 Mham001 : THEY ALREADY ARE!!! jeese, how do you put a person on ignore for ignorance?
29 Pbottenb : OK - you asked for it: You are simplistic!
30 ANCFlyer : Well, of course it is . . . Venezuela isn't exactly a "stable" country IMO. Not necessary, you took care of it for us.
31 Post contains images Mir : -Mir
32 Post contains images Falcon84 : Sorry about "que". For some reason I wasn't watching what I was doing.
33 Post contains images FlyMIA : Well sorry but if it was not for the United States the EU and Russia would not even exist. Please a sanction against the United States? that is a lau
34 Derico : Fine, but trying to justify a hypothetical by using a hypothetical, at least in science, is called Occam's Razor. Perhaps such a principle is needed
35 JGPH1A : And the result is...? Grapefruit, grahp-fruit. Ummm - has Venezuela invaded anyone ? Has Venezuala actively destabilised democratically elected gover
36 Mir : The result is an utter strategic cock-up, but in international law intent does count. One can find plenty of faults with the conduct of the war, but
37 JGPH1A : Let's not get into the whole "reasons" thing - what intent there was is very murky at best, and does no credit to anyone involved.
38 Post contains images Baroque : Very nasty complaint there JGPH1A, must try and reduce the ciggies. Funny having threads like this after there were two world wars that were ostensib
39 Pbottenb : You are overcompensating for your earlier simplistic statements with a bunch of complicated sounding gobbledygook...better to quit while you are ...n
40 Derico : Whatever, call me what you will if it makes you feel better. Bottom line even your own politicians from all major parties have huge concerns and rese
41 FlyingTexan : Money. Its greed, arrogance and money. Thats what drives Bush. There is a group of people paying him $400k to be their president. Another group of pe
42 Post contains links Dougloid : Derico, I don't understand how you can make a mountain out of this molehill. You've got an article on yahoo news and this is "completely outrageous be
43 Acheron : Yeah, this is fine for some here until one of those countries turns around against the US and uses this very same weapons against them, then it become
44 L410Turbolet : The bottom line is that there are still chances that regime in SA will change from horrible to even worse (hard to imagine, I know) and these weapons
45 Baroque : You missed Surakarta, aka Solo, the haunt of the great and peaceful Abu Bakar Bashir, whose prosecution for heading an organization that has carried
46 Dougloid : What specific lessons are you talking about that the US goverment ought to take notice of? Without going into an extensive and rather concise discuss
47 Post contains images Arrow : Huh? Updated: "Beware the Cheney complex." good one!
48 Cfalk : Proof that teaching history has not been a great priority in our culture... I would also call to your attention that if you look at the stuff that ge
49 Pbottenb : Please refer to your own words in the previous post: You have said here that using a hypothetical to justify increased sales to Israel to balance thi
50 Arrow : Depends on whose culture, and whose history you're talking about, doesn't it? And even more important, it depends on who is teaching it.
51 Post contains images Baroque : Only the victors get to do that Arrow! Good point, but do you think it should be called the Cheney Perplex? I know that it does not alliterate like t
52 Blackbird : I think it's morally wrong to sell anything of that nature to Saudia Arabia. In fact, I think our alliance to them is solely because we need oil. We'r
53 Post contains images Acheron : Don't sell weapons to countries that might turn against you or that are prone to fall into the hands of extremists, perhaps?. Iran was a friendly sta
54 Post contains links Dougloid : I doubt that Iran could ever be characterized as a friendly state after the Mossadegh affair. A vassal, perhaps. Iran wasn't particularly friendly to
55 Post contains images Usnseallt82 : Then it must be true. Get a grip dude. Weapons have been purchased and sold for many years across damn near every country in the world. If you took t
56 Blackbird : Too bad the US Navy didn't persue an F-22 variant, it would sure have been a nice companion to the F-18E/F/G Rhino. Especially if the US actually pers
57 Post contains links L410Turbolet : One might argue that the UK or US should be held somewhat higher standard than thugocracies like China or NK.... In other news this idea of "let's se
58 Post contains images Oldeuropean : Yeah, like the weapons, which your government gave the Talibans in Afghanistan and Saddam in Iraq in the 90th. Well, the help from the US was a great
59 Baroque : You are supposed to have a short and preferably selective memory Oldeuropean. Now where did all those Stingers come from?
60 Dougloid : One might equally argue that it's better to have people armed with things that we have some control over rather than the thugocracies as you so eloqu
61 Post contains images Arrow : I can think of several contenders for that honour.
62 Post contains links Dougloid : Yep. It's well worth a place in the learned man or woman's lexicon....it's so descriptive. Do you fancy art? Have you ever seen Aubrey Beardsley's et
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