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Anti-Islamic Anti-Arab Sentiments On A.net  
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4845 posts, RR: 16
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

This is not meant to start a shitstorm so please try and keep this civil. If you think you can not, please observe from the sidelines.
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I'm always amazed at how seemingly polarized A.net is with regards to anything that concerns Islam or the Arab world. You will all have no doubt noticed the great number and frequency of topics involving Islam that spring up here. Given the prevalence of Islamic fundamentalism in today's media this is to be expected. What I am trying to understand is how this polarization came to be so acute on A.net.

I'm not an Arab or a Muslim but I constantly find myself fighting in their corners arguing against members who are unable or unwilling to make even the most minor concessions in discussions. Granted not everyone has been to many Arab/Muslim countries and had adequate exposure to see the more positive things to come out of these cultures but I really don't think that you need to have been to a place to appreciate some of its better offerings. You don't have to have been to China to like Chinese food do you?

I first noticed this polarization around the time of the Mohamed cartoon debacle when some members changed their flags in "support" of the Danish. I've resisted posting about it for now but an ongoing thread in Civ-Av Qatari Royals Thrown Off BA Flight After 3hr Row! (by Kaitak Jul 27 2007 in Civil Aviation) pushed me to post. In this particular thread anyone who has taken anything other than a "this Qatari guy was 100% in the wrong" stance has been hammered. For those of you familiar with the thread I maintained that the guy was wrong but that minor reshuffling of the J cabin would have got the plane in the air in minutes rather than BA slugging it out on the ground for 3 hours.

This thread is not alone. I'm sure you will have noticed in just about every major thread concerning EK, EY or QR that somebody has seen fit to take a crack about how these Arab carriers are "funded with oil money and blah blah blah." Some of this is sour grapes but a lot of it smacks of genuine resentment. There are countless other instances... Am I crazy in thinking that this polarization exists?

The reason I bring this up is that I am genuinely worried for A.net. We have a GREAT thing going here, but this sort of misguided, ill-informed disdain for those we perceive as being different from ourselves seems to be eroding this great website. Any thoughts?

YOWza


12A whenever possible.
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1852 times:

I have found that any well-reasoned argument one way or the other will be met with a well-reasoned response from most people, but not all. I've had some engaging conversations with a few of our Islamic members in threads relating to gay issues in the mideast and Islamic culture, where I've found the respondents to be full of candor and information without being defensive, nor writing me off for merely having questions or an alternate point of view on some details.

I guess it's in one's approach. Either you're trying to learn, or you're trying to express your unmovable views, and that will happen on any subject. Most westerners are ill-informed about Islamic/Arab cultures, so this is new territory for the majority. It doesn't give them the excuse to be uncivil, however, so that's when you use the Suggest Delete button.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1847 times:

I'm not sure I understand your point. What's wrong with saying that many of these Mid-East based carriers are funded with oil money? Is that not a factually correct statement?

I for one think that a.net is often too politically correct. We worry too much about making any statement that can be viewed as offensive EVEN IF IT IS CORRECT. The other day for example someone made a ridiculous, factually incorrect statement about a historical event. He was then told he was wrong and continued to insist that he was right notwithstanding the fact that people kept referring him to where he could find the information to correct himself.

I then made the comment that it was just another example of someone opining on an issue that they clearly have no idea about (I believe I used the expression "talking out of their ass") and the cries went up that I was being too harsh. It seems to me that ideas need to be debated and bullshit needs to be called bullshit. IMO bullshit is passed along as fact and the only posts that get deleted are the ones pointing out that the statement is in fact bullshit.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 2):
What's wrong with saying that many of these Mid-East based carriers are funded with oil money? Is that not a factually correct statement?

Completely wrong, look at EK, Dubai doesnt live off of Oil Revenue.

Quoting YOWza (Thread starter):
The reason I bring this up is that I am genuinely worried for A.net. We have a GREAT thing going here, but this sort of misguided, ill-informed disdain for those we perceive as being different from ourselves seems to be eroding this great website. Any thoughts?

I do see this problem



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4845 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 2):
I'm not sure I understand your point. What's wrong with saying that many of these Mid-East based carriers are funded with oil money? Is that not a factually correct statement?

While the big GCC carriers were born from money that had its root in petroleum they are their own entities now and are legitimate operations that serve a purpose of being more than some plaything to some Arab Sheikh, which is the spin I have seen given to these carriers on numerous occasions. If they started to struggle their respective governments would inject cash into them which may well come from petroleum but that should not be the point. You don't see people making snide comments about the source of the funding every time AZ gets bailed out the Italian government.

What I was trying to illustrate was the genuine disdain that seems to exist. I'm asking if you think there is any such sentiments or have I lost the plot a little.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1807 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 4):
If they started to struggle their respective governments would inject cash into them which may well come from petroleum but that should not be the point.

So you want to be able to determine what is and what "should not be the point." It seems that what you're really getting at is the fact that you don't like what people are saying and wrapping this in a veil of anti-Islam or anti-Semiticsm.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 3):
Completely wrong, look at EK, Dubai doesnt live off of Oil Revenue.

How is this completely wrong? I never said all and I never said EK. So please tell me how I'm completely wrong.


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4845 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 5):
So you want to be able to determine what is and what "should not be the point." It seems that what you're really getting at is the fact that you don't like what people are saying and wrapping this in a veil of anti-Islam or anti-Semiticsm.

Not even slightly close to the truth but feel free to keep believing that if you wish.

Quoting Pope (Reply 5):
How is this completely wrong? I never said all and I never said EK. So please tell me how I'm completely wrong.

So what carriers were you talking about.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 2):
I for one think that a.net is often too politically correct. We worry too much about making any statement that can be viewed as offensive EVEN IF IT IS CORRECT

Give that man a cigar.

And, YOWza, whether you agree with it or not, much of the Anti0Arabic/Islmaic sentiment on this forum is because of acts carried out by Arabs/Muslims, oestensibly in the name of Islam, that have cause death and suffering throughout the world. Sometime, with little or no condemnation for others in that part of the world.


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1727 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 6):
Not even slightly close to the truth but feel free to keep believing that if you wish.

You are the one who said:

Quote:
If they started to struggle their respective governments would inject cash into them which may well come from petroleum but that should not be the point. You don't see people making snide comments about the source of the funding every time AZ gets bailed out the Italian government.

It seems like you're upset about what people are saying. You're trying to act like the thought police here. If you have a problem with AZ why not mention that the Italian government has bailed it out?

I still don't see how saying that oil money funds Mid-East carriers is anti-Islamic (or for that matter how saying that Italian tax money bails out AZ is anti-Italian).


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1719 times:

The matter is not being Anti-Islamic or Anti-Arab.

It all has to do with their behaviour when they are over here in the West in non-muslim nations, especially regarding western women and the way we live over here in our own countries.

I am getting tired of having dirty looks from muslims especially women who are wearing religious clothing, those wearing muslim veils or fully dressed from head to toes.

What if I want to dress lightly being in my own town/home land? What have they got to say about it? Wha tis their right?

Quoting YOWza (Thread starter):
I'm always amazed at how seemingly polarized A.net is with regards to anything that concerns Islam or the Arab world.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1713 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
much of the Anti0Arabic/Islmaic sentiment on this forum is because of acts carried out by Arabs/Muslims, oestensibly in the name of Islam, that have cause death and suffering throughout the world. Sometime, with little or no condemnation for others in that part of the world.

Well then those people are ignorant and stupid, and feel the need to resort to racist generalisations to mask their fear.


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

Everything gets bashed on here. Jews, Europeans, Americans, Chavez, Bush, Christians, Moslems, gays, and even snowglobes are bashed and defended.

For some reason this is just a sensitive issue for you. Thus the whiney thread.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 10):
Well then those people are ignorant and stupid, and feel the need to resort to racist generalisations to mask their fear.

Actually, I think the ignorance comes from those who are constantly blinded by their own loathing of the West that they cannot see the acts of terrorism that have besmirched the names of both Muslims and Arabs. It is those who carry out terrorism who are causing the bad response from the West, not visa versa.


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4264 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1682 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
It all has to do with their behaviour when they are over here in the West in non-muslim nations, especially regarding western women and the way we live over here in our own countries.

I am getting tired of having dirty looks from muslims especially women who are wearing religious clothing, those wearing muslim veils or fully dressed from head to toes.

But it goes both ways. Many Westerners visiting Islamic countries act in opposition to the established culture and norms in those areas. For instance, people are supposed to dress modestly and cover much of their bodies when out in public, at least in Egypt. Yet there were hundreds of Europeans and dozens of American women walking through in tank tops, tube tops, bikini tops and short shorts, etc, that are offensive to the culture. And when they were asked to cover to enter a mosque or another public building, the tourists acted indignant and offended! This is not to defend the Muslims you have had experience with, just to show that people in general need to look into and respect different cultures.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Sometime, with little or no condemnation for others in that part of the world.

Often there are major Muslim leaders who do condemn the acts, they just aren't covered as prominently. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and the UAE, to name a few countries, are usually quick to condemn violent acts. However, the voices that are celebrating make for better news.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
much of the Anti0Arabic/Islamic sentiment on this forum is because of acts carried out by Arabs/Muslims, ostensibly in the name of Islam, that have cause death and suffering throughout the world.

And that is completely against the tenets of Islam. When such acts are carried out the individuals and groups are committing hirabah. Hirabah is publicly directed violence that has the effect of spreading fear and a sense of helplessness under circumstances where the reasonable person could not avoid this harm through any safekeeping measures. This would include all the acts of terrorism the media mistakenly labels as jihad. In the Qu'ran, hirabah is the most severely punished crime, with execution being the only option.

It is still a very small minority of individuals in Islam who believe that hirabah is the way to effect change. The main problem I have is how some in not just this forum but the media and the public in general keep insisting that the comments of some true madmen on the fringes of the religion and who are not truly following or promoting Islam speak for the entire Islamic world. It is like saying that because one is a Christian, you believe and follow everything Pat Robertson says.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Quoting Texan (Reply 15):
For instance, people are supposed to dress modestly and cover much of their bodies when out in public, at least in Egypt. Yet there were hundreds of Europeans and dozens of American women walking through in tank tops, tube tops, bikini tops and short shorts, etc, that are offensive to the culture.

It's because it's 120 degrees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  hot 



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4264 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1651 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
It's because it's 120 degrees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nah, it was in the upper 80s to mid 90s most of the time in Cairo  Wink Plus, there is always lightweight and extremely breathable linen!

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1630 times:

Quoting Texan (Reply 17):
Nah, it was in the upper 80s to mid 90s most of the time in Cairo

Still very hot!
Perhaps this is something the Middle-East can learn from the west. Why on earth would anyone complain about women in in tank tops, tube tops, bikini tops and short shorts? I'd like to see more Arabic women doing the same considering many of them are gorgeous.  Cool
Tank tops, tube tops, bikini tops and short shorts look way better and more comfortable than drapes.
If they want tourist $$$ and charge to see the Pyramids and other attractions, they need to accept the fact that they are going to dress accordingly to the weather. Also most of Europe doesn't get as hot as Egypt.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4845 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1618 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
And, YOWza, whether you agree with it or not, much of the Anti0Arabic/Islmaic sentiment on this forum is because of acts carried out by Arabs/Muslims, oestensibly in the name of Islam, that have cause death and suffering throughout the world. Sometime, with little or no condemnation for others in that part of the world.

It's understandable that people would want to direct there blame somewhere. It's human nature. So Falcon would you agree that this does go on here on a.net?

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):

I still don't see how saying that oil money funds Mid-East carriers is anti-Islamic

On the surface it's not, but under the surface of such statements is in many (not all) cases some type of smarmy disdain. This at least is my feeling. That is why I am asking other if they have the same perception of such statements when they are made. I am by no means saying that my assertion is the only possibility.

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
You're trying to act like the thought police here.

Not really, more like the thoughts detective to try and see if others are in line with some of the things I think I may have picked up on. Please do no mistake me for somebody who will blindly defend something, I'm not that type of person and even if I was neither Islam or the Arabs would receive that benefit from me, seeing as I am neither an Arab or a Muslim.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 11):
For some reason this is just a sensitive issue for you. Thus the whiney thread.

Well as I already alluded to I'm not an Arab or a Muslim, nor do I hold and particular affection for the religion or race. This "whiney" thread was started merely to point out an observation and poll people to see if they felt at all the same way. I apologize if this "whiney" thread has left a bad taste in your mouth, that was not my intention.

Quoting OU812 (Reply 13):
This thread and thread starter being a perfact example of that!

I am no fan of the uber PC crowd or their mindset, that's for SURE.



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8201 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1618 times:

I agree with the thread starter. There is a lot of prejudice against Islam, Arabs and Muslims.

If there is a contest between Islam and Christianity, which is more violent and bloody, I would say both are plagued with violence. Many Christian adherents think nothing of killing in the name of their "culture" and value system. Christians also tend to be better armed, it so happens.

Many Christians are poorly educated and don't even believe in evolution. Is this true of all Christians, no. But Christians are responsible for a lot of mischief. I think they are just as dangerous as Muslims.

For example, the Pope thinks everybody who does not worship the Vatican is going to hell. That's very similar to the most strict radical Islam, isn't it? Does the Pope cause violence, I would say no, that would be criminal, but popes have in the past.

Religions are all good. Holy people have the right to say whatever they want to say. It is a human right. Crimes are crimes however, and that is why we have a criminal justice system, and a military.

It's been a tragic mistake to bathe the image of Islam in crimes and misdeeds. There is no reason for that. The sooner we support average Muslims, the sooner we alienate our enemies who are not Muslims but simply -- criminals. Let's just call them criminals, if that is what they are, and ignore their professed religion. Religion does not excuse crime, nor is it the true source of it.

Each time we arrest Muslims or take over Muslim lands to catch criminals, we must take pains to show that we really do love and respect Islam. Criminals are their own subset, and hunting criminals is something everyone, even Muslims, can agree upon.

The minute you alienate 1 billion Muslims, who are just as good as the Christian people, you sew the seeds of a 1,000 year religious war. How thoughtless and dangerous. We (the USA) need to be heroes to Muslims, help them build their Mosques and so on, to prove that our true goal is peace and justice, not Christianity. So far, the Muslim world is highly dubious. They think (in my view correctly) that instead we are in a religious war today against Islam. The updraft from that over the next 50 years is so horrifying I cannot begin to contemplate it.

The sooner we drop the titles "Islamic terrorism" and "Islamic fanatics," the better. They are devices to fan racist hatred, nothing more. Terminology is so powerful. It is time we take extreme care with our words. Disrespectful words and names can offend people for generations. Every religion has violent fanatics, Christianity strongly among them. Look at world history, look at George Bush and tell me I am wrong.


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4845 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1594 times:

This thread was supposed to address the posting sentiments of members of A.net, not how the Muslim population of your country make you feel uncomfortable in your own country but let's talk about what you've said.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):

What if I want to dress lightly being in my own town/home land? What have they got to say about it? Wha tis their right?

If you want to do it, do, it's your right to do it. They can say what they want, it doesn't matter, the only thing that matter is that the laws of your own country allow it.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
I am getting tired of having dirty looks from muslims especially women who are wearing religious clothing, those wearing muslim veils or fully dressed from head to toes.

Are you so insecure that you need approval from everyone around you about what you wear? Perhaps those looks you perceive as being dirty are looks of jealousy - maybe at your freedom, or impressive physique? I couldn't say I'm not a Muslim woman. Perhaps they give equally "dirty" looks to people's in socks and sandals?

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1578 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 3):
Dubai doesnt live off of Oil Revenue.

Anymore at least.



There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1578 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 19):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
I am getting tired of having dirty looks from muslims especially women who are wearing religious clothing, those wearing muslim veils or fully dressed from head to toes.

Are you so insecure that you need approval from everyone around you about what you wear?

Why should she have to be scorned in her own nation? If they don't like it, they should go back to where that kind of dress is common, I say.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7951 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1547 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 18):

The sooner we drop the titles "Islamic terrorism" and "Islamic fanatics," the better. They are devices to fan racist hatred, nothing more.

What a load of hogwash. Those titles have been earned by no one other than the facist terrorists who have taken their faith and their holy book and their obsession with wholesale imposition of Shar'ia into the mold of violent oppression. In so doing, we are required to use that terminology as a proper device to designate who these retrogrades are.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8201 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1524 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
What a load of hogwash. Those titles have been earned by no one other than the facist terrorists who have taken their faith and their holy book and their obsession with wholesale imposition of Shar'ia into the mold of violent oppression. In so doing, we are required to use that terminology as a proper device to designate who these retrogrades are.

Fine, just call them fascists. That is good enough. The tool they use -- the Koran, the Bible, whatever -- I don't think is worth discussing. It's not worth 1,000 years of trouble to get all religious about it. If you want to fight fascists all day, you have my blessing. Just don't fight Muslims, or I may defend them. I think Thomas Jefferson would, too.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1511 times:

Since this thread has already had to have the moderators come in and delete a number of posts for rules violations and folks trying to ignite this thread into what the threadstarter didn't want to have happen, it is now locked.

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