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Where To Place A Home Defense Weapon?  
User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2416 times:

Disclaimer: This thread is for the discussion of home defense and related subjects. This is not to discuss whether owning a weapon is immoral, Hillary or Obama is the better candidate, how GWB is the devil incarnate, or any other topic of conversation. Unless you have some constructive/practical infornation to contribute to the discussion, please refrain from joining in. Thank you.


OK gents.. I've got another responsible gun owner question for you. What factors should I consider when placing a home defense weapon? What things should I consider? (Lines of sight, ease of access, limiting access to those that shouldn't have it, etc?)

The story behind this is that I have been informed that my right to carry is now severely diminished. As a CWP holder in good standing, I can no longer carry about 90% of the time that I am out-and-about. (If you want the full story, let me know and I'll share.) SO, the weapon which was located in my truck now needs to come into the house. I have an XD .40 which I keep near the bed (on the 2nd level), and now I'm looking to place the Ruger P345 .45 on the main level. What recommendations would you have? What kind of locations are central, easy to access, while not inviting the attention of those who shouldn't be in possession of my weapon?

Thanks for your (constructive) feedback.  

Edit: I live in a 2-story house on a cul-de-sac corner with my girlfriend. We have no children in the home and no young visitors; only occassional guests (usually co-workers).

[Edited 2007-08-12 22:27:09]

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2398 times:

Suggestion: Why don't you get yourself a few of these small, not too expensive safes with a key code lock? Maybe one in the bedroom, one in the sitting room and one close to the entry door? You could leave your gun in one of these, they would be quickly reachable in case of need and locked away from people who are not supposed to get access to them. Maybe put one gun in each, so that there'll always be a gun in your reach.
It should be safe for children and if your hozse got burgled, you wouldn't accidentally arm a burglar.

Jan


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2392 times:

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Thread starter):
(Lines of sight, ease of access, limiting access to those that shouldn't have it, etc?)

I don't think the first item on that list is that important, the last two however are.

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Thread starter):
What kind of locations are central, easy to access, while not inviting the attention of those who shouldn't be in possession of my weapon?

I would have to be in your house to know that. I would looks for spots that are easy to get to but not obvious. A cabinent rather then on a shelf for example (I am assuming you will invest in a safe).

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Thread starter):
We have no children in the home and no young visitors

Be very careful where you select, it is amazing where kids can end up, and you might not be prepared to outsmart them since you don't have any.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
Why don't you get yourself a few of these small, not too expensive safes with a key code lock? Maybe one in the bedroom, one in the sitting room and one close to the entry door? You could leave your gun in one of these, they would be quickly reachable in case of need and locked away from people who are not supposed to get access to them. Maybe put one gun in each, so that there'll always be a gun in your reach.

Excellent suggestion, I was thinking of this type of safe also in my other response when I said put it in a cabinent.

Although I would recommend not putting it by the door. If you have to retreat into your house to retreive the weapon you are in a better position legal/defensively IMHO then if you have to shoot the perp right at the door.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2384 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 2):
Although I would recommend not putting it by the door. If you have to retreat into your house to retreive the weapon you are in a better position legal/defensively IMHO then if you have to shoot the perp right at the door.

I was thinking about an experience by another airnutter a few years ago. He was in his basement, cleaning his rifles, when he heard his mother screaming above. He grabbed a Ruger Mini 14 he was just finished cleaning, pushed a magazine in and found his mother desperately trying to push the entry door closed, while some punk was trying to force his way in (thinking that an elderly woman would be alone at home).
He stuck the barrel of the rifle over his mother's shoulder straight into the perp's face thorough the gap in the door.
The perp got the message and legged it.

Jan


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2376 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
was thinking about an experience by another airnutter a few years ago. He was in his basement, cleaning his rifles, when he heard his mother screaming above. He grabbed a Ruger Mini 14 he was just finished cleaning, pushed a magazine in and found his mother desperately trying to push the entry door closed, while some punk was trying to force his way in (thinking that an elderly woman would be alone at home).
He stuck the barrel of the rifle over his mother's shoulder straight into the perp's face thorough the gap in the door.
The perp got the message and legged it.

Glad to hear that turned out ok.

I am coming from the view that in a similar situation you are going to need to have time to retrieve the weapon and load it (I am not big on storing loaded weapons. Loaded magazines in safe next to the pistols ok, but not in the weapon proper). In my mind that means retreating into the interior of the house, and using any time that you can gain to get the weapon out of the safe and preping it to fire. From what you describe your freinds mom had her hands full holding the door shut, so I don't think having a weapon close would have made a difference, I don't think she was in a position to retrieve it.

This means that you have to practice the use of the safe and the weapon for speed, but I also think most gun owners don't go to the range nearly enough (myself included).



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

The coded safes that hold a pistol are great ideas. I have one in the bedroom. I have another in the garage, since that is where I am a lot of time. A long time ago, I use to keep a 1911 in bookshelf. I had a book "History of the Punic Wars," hollowed out to the pistol's shape. This isn't such a great idea nowadays.

Stick with the code safes and if you have to, camouflage it.


User currently offlineZak From Greenland, joined Sep 2003, 1993 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2346 times:

imagine having a smart weapon (usually disabling nonlethal) that acts intelligently, on its own initiative, responding to its built in SUPER MEGA HYPER ALERT SYSTEM HAXX, disabling the offender quickly. all this while immiting a special finetuned noise designed to wake me up in an alert way, utilizing my inbred genetical instincts. this super great weapon should come in groups of 2-3. but will act alone. it is not possible to be used against the homeowners or friends of the family.

dogs > pistols.

my home defense weapons have picked their spots, but tend to loiter around at nighttime, sleeping in different places every few hours. they surely have favourite locations, but nothing someone who would "infiltrate" the house would be able to make a pattern out of, after all, its about home defense eh?  Wink

[Edited 2007-08-12 23:21:55]


10=2
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2335 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
I am coming from the view that in a similar situation you are going to need to have time to retrieve the weapon and load it (I am not big on storing loaded weapons. Loaded magazines in safe next to the pistols ok, but not in the weapon proper). In my mind that means retreating into the interior of the house, and using any time that you can gain to get the weapon out of the safe and preping it to fire. From what you describe your freinds mom had her hands full holding the door shut, so I don't think having a weapon close would have made a difference, I don't think she was in a position to retrieve it.

This means that you have to practice the use of the safe and the weapon for speed, but I also think most gun owners don't go to the range nearly enough (myself included).

Concering these aspects, I think you are right. A tactical retreat into the house, giving you a minute more to get and cock the gun will help, also, since you know your own house better than any intruder, you can set up an ambush.

Quoting Zak (Reply 6):
dogs > pistols.

my home defense weapons have picked their spots, but tend to loiter around at nighttime, sleeping in different places every few hours. they surely have favourite locations, but nothing someone who would "infiltrate" the house would be able to make a pattern out of, after all, its about home defense eh? Wink

Dogs are good, but depending on the region I'm in, I would reinforce them with guns. Not necessarily in Germany, but if I was e.g. living in the Philippines, in the province where my girlfriend comes from (close to area of operation of several Muslim rebel and bandit groups (the borders between political rebels and gangsters are moving all the time), who like to kidnap people for ransom or political demands), I would get myself some dogs of the Labrador-Rottweiler type mix plus e.g. a pump action shot gun for each adult family member (or for the ladies an old fashioned 30 M1 carbine, light, easy to handle for a rather petite woman, like my girlfriend and due to the low power of the round, little danger of the bullet penetrating the rather thin walls and injuring a neighbour. BTW, my girlfriend is used to guns from back home. Her brother is a police officer and, as it is customary there, he owns his own .45cal pistol, though I don't know of which brand it is.).

Jan


User currently offlineBhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 972 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2329 times:

Hmmm..regardless of where you keep it..that is if no kids are around..what about an early warning system as a first level of defence..like a dog or alarm system..that might help with the time you need to arm yourself. Again..if you do not need to concern yourself with the wrong people getting to your weapon, you could keep it in any place that is unsecured but out of site for fast "deployment". Kind of like the different rings of defence model, with you in the center....


Carpe Pices
User currently offlineZak From Greenland, joined Sep 2003, 1993 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2327 times:

yeah jan i hear ya. i am talking "western first world" since thats my understanding of the initial posting, i would have a gun up each sleeve if i had to live in a place with "take anything you want" attitude and bandit proliferation.
on the other hand i'd make a habit of not making it my permanent residence either  Wink



10=2
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2323 times:



Just follow the instructions.

Seriously:

  • Obey local laws!

  • There is no excuse for a child getting ahold of a gun unsupervised. None!


  • I'm still tweaking my solutions.

    edit: stupid control

    [Edited 2007-08-12 23:46:35]

    [Edited 2007-08-12 23:48:01]

    [Edited 2007-08-12 23:48:58]


    Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
    User currently offlineBhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 972 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

    Yep..Slamclick has it..just don't buy the blue ones...


    Carpe Pices
    User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

    Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):
    Obey local laws!

    There is no excuse for a child getting ahold of a gun unsupervised. None!

    I absolutely 110% agree on both counts! I have researched the local laws and have become very familiar with them. And if I ever have a child in my home, my weapons will be locked and out of reach. However, whereas I live in a situation where it's two adults who are familiar and trained with the operation of the weapons, I'm not sure a safe is 100% neccessary.

    I'm thinking about a location that's central (easy to get to on a few seconds noitce), and is easy to access (doesn't require several steps: such as opening a closet and a case), while still not something someone would notice/see.

    I was contemplating the idea of on top of the ktichen cupboards. They're approximately 8 feet tall and have a decorative molding which provide a lip-type device which prevents casual observors from knowing it's there. (You would literally have to step up onto the counter and look onto the top of the cupboard to know it's there.)

    Is that a decent idea? Or am I setting myself up for trouble?


    User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
    Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

    Quoting Bhill (Reply 8):
    Again..if you do not need to concern yourself with the wrong people getting to your weapon, you could keep it in any place that is unsecured but out of site for fast "deployment".

    But with the risk of accidentally arming a burglar. E.g. you are coming back home from a night out and a burlar is inside your place. There is the risk of him finding the gun and using it against you. A gun inside a safe is not as easily accessible for him (he has to crack the safe first).

    Jan


    User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2281 times:

    http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=148194

    If there's anything children ignore more in a house, it's the art on the walls.


    User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

    12 Gauge pump shotgun hanging in a holster on the inside of the bedroom door. Bandolier next to it.

    Not if you have kids in the house.


    User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
    Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2232 times:
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    Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
    Why don't you get yourself a few of these small, not too expensive safes with a key code lock?

    rhis is the best solution if you insist on making a pistol/revolver your primary home defense weapon. other than that listen to dougloid....



    Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
    User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 14
    Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2215 times:

    Quoting Zak (Reply 6):
    dogs > pistols

    Both are in my inventory.

    Since I have young children, there are no loaded guns in the house that are not under lock and key or at least a coded box.

    As I've said in this forum in the past: my dogs' primary function in the event of a break-in, or such, is to occupy to intruder to give me enough me to get to a firearm. The dobermann will do that job adequately, I'm not so sure of the aussie/lab mix.

    To answer the question: 1 loaded revolver (.357) in a coded lockbox in the bedroom up above the kids' current reach level. That will be difficult in the very near future and I'll need to rethink placement/concealment, but still locked. 1 loaded shotgun (alternating slug/ #4 ball) in a gun locker in the basement (finished and my domain, along with those intrusive kids). There is also an AR15 clone that can be loaded in about 10 seconds if it becomes necessary.

    I also keep a loaded Glock in the glove box. This is starting to concern me as the kids get older.



    When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
    User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
    Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2155 times:

    Just been thinking about something:
    How about having a fortified room inside the house (kind of pillbox structure with loop holes leading into the neighbouring rooms, which are normally concealed in daily use, and a solid steel door with a concrete wall at right angles behind it as a bullet trap, also covered by a loop hole), so that in case of a serious attack on your place (I'm talking now about a scenario like I've heard from the southern Philippines, with armed gangs raiding houses to capture hostages for ransom) you can get e.g. the children to safety, make a stand and win time until e.g. the police or military arrive. Kind of prepared defensive position in the house.

    Jan


    User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 14
    Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

    Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
    Kind of prepared defensive position in the house.

    A panic room. For the paranoid among us, or those living in some of the more 'exciting' places in the world.



    When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
    User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

    MD11Engineer, Panic Rooms/Safe Rooms (bad movie not withstanding) have been in practice for many years. They really aren't economically practical for most people, but are somewhat common amongst the rich and paranoid crowd. There are all sorts of them in use. Any where from simply reinforcing and fortifying a normal room all the way to very expensive types that were engineered and built into the building from it's creation. Some can be very elaborate and are almost self sustaining bunkers.

    User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
    Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2141 times:

    Quoting MDorBust (Reply 20):
    MD11Engineer, Panic Rooms/Safe Rooms (bad movie not withstanding) have been in practice for many years. They really aren't economically practical for most people, but are somewhat common amongst the rich and paranoid crowd. There are all sorts of them in use. Any where from simply reinforcing and fortifying a normal room all the way to very expensive types that were engineered and built into the building from it's creation. Some can be very elaborate and are almost self sustaining bunkers.

    Back during the Cold War, the German government paid subsedies if you installed a bomb/fall out shelter in your house, a complete subterranean bunker with airlock, filtered air and water supply and stocks of food for seceral weeks, though without the defensive measures.

    A panic room can be set up that it can be used as a normal room, e.g as a storage room or with bullet proof shutters over existing windows.

    I read that back during the war of independence in former Rhodesia (today Zimbabwe), European farmers were targeted by guerilla groups, especially remote farms, and that many farmers fortified their houses into paramilitary camps, with barbed wire obstacles, sandbags, search lights, machine gun posts, wire mesh to catch RPG and mortar bombs and slit trenches as fighting positions.


    Another topic:
    If more than one person is living in a house (both firearms trained), wouldn't it also make sense to develop some tactics (e.g. covering each other's back, setting up an ambush for intruders, or e.g. one person establishing a fire base and the other one doing a flanking attack) and practicing it BEFORE an actual intrusion, even if it is just to prevent them from shooting each other by accident?

    Jan


    User currently offlineJafa39 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2133 times:

    Quoting BCAInfoSys (Thread starter):
    Where To Place A Home Defense Weapon?

    Firmly and squarely in the intruders head!!!!

    Quoting Zak (Reply 9):
    yeah jan i hear ya. i am talking "western first world" since thats my understanding of the initial posting, i would have a gun up each sleeve if i had to live in a place with "take anything you want" attitude and bandit proliferation.
    on the other hand i'd make a habit of not making it my permanent residence either

    Gotta agree with Zak here, I wouldn't live anywhere that dangerous...true, it can happen anywhere but in some areas its practically part of the lifestyle.

    Having said that, I believe attack is the best form of defense and would probably have a hidden basement to hide the bodies...no-one is gonna miss scum like that!!


    User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 14
    Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

    Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
    If more than one person is living in a house (both firearms trained), wouldn't it also make sense to develop some tactics (e.g. covering each other's back, setting up an ambush for intruders, or e.g. one person establishing a fire base and the other one doing a flanking attack) and practicing it BEFORE an actual intrusion, even if it is just to prevent them from shooting each other by accident?

    Guns and Ammo Magazine had an article about that just last month. It really wasn't about setting up ambushes and such, but how 2 armed people can move through their home using covering tactics and concealment.



    When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
    User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2050 times:

    Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 23):
    Guns and Ammo Magazine had an article about that just last month.

    I have the issue right in front of me - thanks CRC for finally sending me the magazines I want. I really like what I'm reading about fingerprint recognition. The GVB 2000 Biometric looks like something worth the money.


    25 MD11Engineer : Careful with fingerprint recognition. In Hannover Airport they use fingerprint scanners together with the airside badges for access to the security a
    26 Post contains links Fr8mech : Anyone have any experience with this: http://www.nragunsafe.com/
    27 Miamiair : No. If it works properly, I'd rather have it than the fingertip safes.
    28 TheCol : Ideally, firearms should be stored at a secure range or gun club facility. However, at home, all firearms should have trigger locks, stored inside a l
    29 Post contains links and images Queso : Since there have been many replies so far and several aspects of this have been brought up, I am going to break this up to address similar issues. You
    30 DL021 : OK...so here's where I have an issue. You are experienced in handling firearms, I've witnessed your familiarity first hand (and there's a difference
    31 MCOflyer : I'd get a small safe to prevent burglars from getting it. I must ask if you have a dog? If you ever have a place in the wall you could make a door and
    32 BCAInfoSys : Ian.. you may be right. For practicality's sake, a shotgun might be a good choice. I have already been shopping and am actually planning on picking up
    33 MDorBust : The USMC has trusted the Mossberg for some time now. It's an outstanding firearm. The Winchester 1300 Defender (out of production) and the Remmington
    34 Miamiair : Great choice. I have one at home for this purpose. I have it loaded with #4 shot. I don't like the idea of 00 buckshot sailing in the house if I have
    35 LTBEWR : A gun or handgun should be the last of a series of steps to deal with potential criminals who may enter your home. Don't forget too that having or usi
    36 BCAInfoSys : Where should I locate this? I'm thinking about either a downstairs closet or the closet in the bedroom. Just on the inside of the doorframe/closet, a
    37 Post contains links Queso : I think the operative term here is "defense". There are many stories of little old ladies defending themselves with a snub-nose .38. As far as "prepa
    38 Miamiair : Keep it in your bedroom. What if Mr. Badguy gets in your house? You don't want to arm him as well. Keep it out of sight, but if easily accesible by y
    39 BCAInfoSys : Works for me. 12 gauge hanging above the closet door on the inside of the walk-in closet. Shandi might have a little trouble reaching it, but I'll do
    40 Fr8Mech : Ahhh, excuse me mister homicidal person, let me run to the gun club and get my home defense weapon of choice. Ahhhh, excuse me mister homicidal perso
    41 Miamiair : Why don't you come down to the BHM meet?
    42 KaiGywer : One of my tactics professors used a very good example of this....your car keys. We all know how to unlock a door, but what happens the day you are ru
    43 TheCol : It's all about perspective. Personally, if I didn't store mine at the range, I would keep the room unlocked until I leave the building. The safe woul
    44 Post contains images BCAInfoSys : I'll second that motion! Fr8, you show up and the first rounds of drinks are on me! OK guys.. here's what I ended up getting. This MIssus is not happ
    45 Miamiair : That should do the trick.
    46 BCAInfoSys : I'm going to take it out to a pit I heard about around here tomorrow to try it out; I'll be sure to let you know how she performs. I have a feeling t
    47 BCAInfoSys : So question for the gun gurus: What's the purpose of the barrel on this weapon? The dealer said something about it being a door breaching barrel and a
    48 Miamiair : I would not want to be poked with barrel. Looks like the crenelated Surefire flashlights that you can use to land some blows on your target.
    49 MDorBust : Yup, the barrel crown definately looks like it's an impact weapon. They've been showing up on firearms lately. I'm not very fond of the idea. Using yo
    50 SlamClick : Between the third and fourth rib, angled slightly upward and across the body centerline in the case of knives. The capacity to do you harm seems to be
    51 AirframeAS : Then what is the whole purpose of having the CWP if the government is diminishing one's right to bear and carry arms? This doesn't make any sense. (N
    52 Post contains images DL021 : If so then I apologize. You know you're my bro so there's no intentional slight upon you, and if you've done all the training you shared then perhaps
    53 Post contains images BCAInfoSys : No my good man, this young punk has graduated and is doing just fine for himself. The last time you saw me, I was a broke-ass college kid. Now betwee
    54 DL021 : Well, you're buying the houses and expensive trucks....so don't jump too high....remember to save 20%.... don't mention it....ever. That's what she s
    55 Post contains images BCAInfoSys : You only met one of my previous chicks and if I remember right you labeled her as "Dumber then a box of rocks", so why are you listening to her now?
    56 Fr8Mech : I have the week off, but I was holding off commiting because my dad was making noise about me bring the kids to meet him in Greece. I just bought the
    57 DL021 : nice editing to the post, whatever it takes to salve your ego. In your mind, pumpkin.
    58 Zak : i'd guess that the barrel milling, just as the "visible carbon stock and m16 system retratible buttstock" is carefully fine-tuned to increase the masc
    59 Post contains links and images MDorBust : Don't worry, I just orderd some flexible neon lighting and a bass kit to add to mine. It's going to be super pimp when I'm done with it. Plan ahead,
    60 Post contains links and images Queso : Uhhh.....yeah. The carbon fiber finish really looks great. Edit: I have a feeling that shellholder might get in your way though. Let me know how it w
    61 DL021 : Dude....we could start a tv show....... Yeah.....I don't buy anything I can't pronounce unless it's really cool looking....
    62 Post contains images L-188 : Again I have to stay, practice with your weapon and make sure you know how it works. That way you won't make the mistake this officer did.
    63 Post contains images MD11Engineer : Jan
    64 Post contains images Zak : gotta love the cowboy high elbow
    65 Post contains images KaiGywer : Notice anything else wrong with that photo?
    66 Jamesbuk : Magazine the wrong way round? AFAIK it should point forward... Rgds --James--
    67 Miamiair : The bolt is forward, I don't think she has tried to chamber a round either. Nice use of cover too.
    68 Zak : i actually didnt notice it, only gave the picture a short glimpse, but yay, gotta love "training". does the ar-15 well actually properly lock in an i
    69 Post contains images KaiGywer : That's correct. Yeah, no shit. Adrenaline rushing can make people do stupid things...just too bad when it's captured in a photo
    70 DL021 : It's hopefully simply a staged photo that someone rushed through either as a joke or a mistake. I sincerely hope that there are no police officers ou
    71 Post contains images Queso : We've discussed this picture before. No. It had to have been jammed in there to make it stick. Darwin's a-callin'. On the other hand, I'd offer my ser
    72 Post contains images DL021 : Who would you use to perform the demo for you?
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