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The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe  
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

Spain's High Court has ordered the seizure of all copies of a magazine that carried a cartoon of Crown Prince Felipe and his wife having sex.

Slandering or defaming the Spanish royal family carries a two-year prison sentence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6909047.stm



Long live the freedom of speech and expression.  Yeah sure


So; Anyone up for changing their flags to Spain?? Big grin

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4353 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2515 times:

I think you can't really compare that to the 'Danish' cartoons. Please let's not talk about these now.

Royal family members can't really defend themselves and I can understand why this cartoon is being banned.
Individuals have the right of prosecuting defaming gossips, cartoons and pictures. How would you like it if you and your wife's heads are pasted on porn model bodies and printed everywhere? I think this cartoon just showed lack of good taste.

It would be something different though when Spanish citizens would be attacked about this cartoon abroad and other governments put repercussions on Spain and its businesses while they didn't even make the cartoon in the first place. But again, let's just not make this comparison.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13170 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2471 times:

At least they are a lot better looking than Prince Charles and Camilla.
While the cartoon may be tasteless and possibly obscene, to not allow people to criticise the Crown is censorship. Part of that may have to do with their history, to reduce the risk of the overthrow and dismissal of the Crown as under the dictatorship of Gen. Franco for many years, but more of archaic tradition where one cannot ever speak critically of the Crown. The crown should not be above any criticism in a modern democracy. I wonder if the actions of the Government of Spain were in violation of EC laws as to freedom of speech. I hope the magazine is compensated and under appeal, the government is found to have been wrong in this action.


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4353 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2454 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
to not allow people to criticise the Crown is censorship. Part of that may have to do with their history, to reduce the risk of the overthrow and dismissal of the Crown as under the dictatorship of Gen. Franco for many years, but more of archaic tradition where one cannot ever speak critically of the Crown.

I am sure sensible criticism, debate about abolishing the royalty and parodies on TV, papers and on stage are common, at least I know it is in Belgium, UK and the Netherlands and I think Spain is not much different.
But in Holland we also had a guy being prosecuted (think a 200 euro fine) who yelled obscenities about the queen all day on the street (think the level of "I like to f** her in the *** etc"). This prosecution, even if they used obsolete laws about criticizm, was more about good taste and offending. I am sure any Spanish magazine or paper can publish a decent but critical article discussing the point of monarchy, the costs, the (lack of) deeds of the individuals without problems.
"Don't try this at home" in monarchies outside Europe though (Thailand or so).



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2264 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):
I think you can't really compare that to the 'Danish' cartoons. Please let's not talk about these now.

I will say, like during the Danish cartoon episode, many including me don't agree.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
"Don't try this at home" in monarchies outside Europe though (Thailand or so).

My point being the so called 'Freedom of Speech' in Europe. Not that this is the first proof, we had the David Irving sentence coming at the peak of Danish episode.


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2249 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
While the cartoon may be tasteless and possibly obscene, to not allow people to criticise the Crown is censorship.

Spot on!

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 4):
My point being the so called 'Freedom of Speech' in Europe.

You generalise way too much. Why are you talking about Europe instead of Spain? How does this effect my freedom of speech in Germany (which is also in Europe...)?

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
But in Holland we also had a guy being prosecuted (think a 200 euro fine) who yelled obscenities about the queen all day on the street (think the level of "I like to f** her in the *** etc").

There is a border between criticism, tasteless jokes and libel. Only the latter should be considered and treated as crime.

pelican


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10925 posts, RR: 37
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2241 times:

There is a similar story here in Monaco.

One of the Princely State's official organist (and composer) was recently sent to court by the local government because he had published a website called Monaco Politic Circus with pictures of Prince Albert and other pictures of some government members with "red noses" making them look like clowns.

Giacone named Albert "chief seducer clown".

The website lasted about one month. Monaco's authorities had it off the internet.

Marc Giacone, 53, this is the organist's name, could face up to 6 months prison for defamation along with a fine of 1500 Euros for his "misconduct" and insults to the Prince and members of the Monaco government. He is himself a monegasque. The court verdict will fall on October 4.

He was fired from his job as the organist at la Chapelle de la Misericorde.

I do not have any links to this in English but I have some links in French.

http://www.rue89.com/2007/08/11/a-mo...rte-de-prosperer-impose-le-silence

http://www.wikio.fr/news/Marc+Giacone

Total silence is kept on the Marc Giacone condemnation in the Princely State (2 square kilometers). All the talks are about Prince Albert foreign travels and his relationship with swimmer Charlene Wittstock.

I never thought that Prince Albert and his government would be so dictatorial.  devil 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 5):
You generalise way too much. Why are you talking about Europe instead of Spain? How does this effect my freedom of speech in Germany (which is also in Europe...)?

Well I kinda agree, I wouldn't have used the word 'Europe' had I not wanted to hint to the Danish cartoon episode but it was disgusting to see many defending them using the freedom of speech slogan. So yeah, I got carried away a little. I meant no offence to anyone really, just pointing out to some hypocrisy this world is so full of.


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6):
One of the Princely State's official organist (and composer) was recently sent to court by the local government because he had published a website called Monaco Politic Circus with pictures of Prince Albert and other pictures of some government members with "red noses" making them look like clowns.

Giacone named Albert "chief seducer clown".

The website lasted about one month. Monaco's authorities had it off the internet.

Marc Giacone, 53, this is the organist's name, could face up to 6 months prison for defamation along with a fine of 1500 Euros for his "misconduct" and insults to the Prince and members of the Monaco government. He is himself a monegasque. The court verdict will fall on October 4.

I thought those things belong to the past in Western Europe. Firing him is okay, but prosecution? But then Monaco isn't exactly known as a beacon of democracy.
 banghead   banghead 

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 7):
Well I kinda agree, I wouldn't have used the word 'Europe' had I not wanted to hint to the Danish cartoon episode but it was disgusting to see many defending them using the freedom of speech slogan

Well I defended them then as I defend those people who published the cartoons now. For once I hope the EU will interfere (in Spain).

pelican


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10925 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2198 times:

I wish they would leave him alone. He can always appeal the verdict but that won't help. Monaco's "justice" would find its way around as Giacone is a Monegasque citizen.

Maybe the European Court of Justice could interfere and do a better job helping him. The problem is that Monaco is not part of the E.U.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 8):

I thought those things belong to the past in Western Europe. Firing him is okay, but prosecution? But then Monaco isn't exactly known as a beacon of democracy.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7965 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 5):
How does this effect my freedom of speech in Germany (which is also in Europe...)?

More than you are obviously aware of. While Spain is not Germany, Titanic, a satirical magazine, was prosecuted and sentenced to a heavy fine that almost broke the magazine's financial neck after they published a doctored picture of former chancellor Kohl with, I believe, straps and a hooker.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 5):
There is a border between criticism, tasteless jokes and libel. Only the latter should be considered and treated as crime.

While I agree, there's a thin line that separates libel from tasteless jokes.

Fact is that Europeans tend to play the libel card quicker than Americans. To Americans, freedom of speech is (or at least comes close to being) the holy grail of freedom and liberty.
In contrast, Europeans tend to value "dignity", freedom from being harassed and insulted, higher than freedom of speech.

As a result, any European can file a counter-statement if he or she wishes to oppose the claim made in any news source. In the U.S., you could try to convince the publishers to take their claims back, but they would not be obliged to publish your reply in accordance with the press law, as Americans consider this a first step towards censorship.

It's not so much an indicator that one region of the world values freedom higher than another part, but interpret the term differently.

[Edited 2007-08-19 23:23:36]

[Edited 2007-08-19 23:25:40]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):
More than you are obviously aware of. While Spain is not Germany, Titanic, a satirical magazine, was prosecuted and sentenced to a heavy fine that almost broke the magazine's financial neck after they published a doctored picture of former chancellor Kohl with, I believe, straps and a hooker.

But that has nothing to do with the case discussed. But it's unfortunate that such things happen here, too (prosecution not the cartoon).
I guess this doesn't fit in your view of Kohl, but the case which almost crippled Titanic was against Björn Engholm and not Helmut Kohl. The latter got his nickname "Die Birne" from Titanic, but Kohl did not file a single suit against them.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):

While I agree, there's a thin line that separates libel from tasteless jokes.

Indeed it is hard to draw a line. The more I read about the case and similar ones the more I realise that it is quite complicated. Nonetheless I think the courts in Germany are too fast with compensations for famous "victims".

pelican


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7965 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2140 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 11):
I guess this doesn't fit in your view of Kohl, but the case which almost crippled Titanic was against Björn Engholm and not Helmut Kohl.

Ok, than I confused both politicians, but no, it has got nothing to do with my personal view on either politician.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 11):
But that has nothing to do with the case discussed.

Why not? In both cases, representants were depicted unfavourably in cartoons, and in both cases courts have ruled this inadmissible, whereas you tried to insinuate that freedom of speech was administered differently in Spain.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6):
I never thought that Prince Albert and his government would be so dictatorial.

Power corrupts.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 8):
For once I hope the EU will interfere (in Spain).

A face saving action in case this news catches wind.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):
More than you are obviously aware of. While Spain is not Germany, Titanic, a satirical magazine, was prosecuted and sentenced to a heavy fine that almost broke the magazine's financial neck after they published a doctored picture of former chancellor Kohl with, I believe, straps and a hooker.

Hmm....Thanks for that, I am sure I can find more should I dig in to look for them. Things like these happen all over.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 11):
But that has nothing to do with the case discussed.

It has everything to do with this, I read this news passingly and posted it here because this forum was full of people playing the 'We have freedom here' card. This and many other cases prove its a card reserved for one's own convenience. I could have taken your challenge up and searched for case in Germany, but I was trying not to look for conflicts. I now feel I should have, in any case I think NoUFO just proved Germany ain't perfect either. But that's not the point. I believe there should be limits and its not like Germany claims not to have any, they too have the Holocaust denial laws. I am not against them, but then lets not claim to be the ultimate freedom lovers when you feel like trampling others.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26714 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2093 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):

Royal family members can't really defend themselves and I can understand why this cartoon is being banned.

I cannot understand why it is being banned. It is an affront to the concept of free speech.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):
Individuals have the right of prosecuting defaming gossips, cartoons and pictures.

Not if they are parody and not if the individual is holding out as a public figure, as a royal does.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 8):
For once I hope the EU will interfere (in Spain).

This isn't uncommon among EU member states, unfortunately. In the UK, freedom of speech is at the leisure of Parliament.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
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