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Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans  
User currently onlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5681 posts, RR: 32
Posted (7 years 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2874 times:

Quite right too: a police uniform is no place for religious symbolism:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0823/turban.html

103 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2837 times:

In Sweden is it now OK to wear turban if you are a policeman AND
cover your hair if you are a muslim police woman, etc. Why? Because
it will come protests from certain groups if it is not allowed and they
are screaming "DISCRIMINATION!" And the gvmt want to be political
correct so the allow everything more or less.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2148 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2783 times:

Good, I am glad common sense prevails over political correctness. Seems rare these days.

saludos

Asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

The Sikhs are a wonderful and warm people, and many younger Sikhs do question the need for a turban. Technically speaking, the beard and hair are 'religious' requirements and not the turban.

In pre-independence India, the British had come up with various regiments that celebrated diversity - The Sikh Regiment, The Gurkhas and so on that had distinct uniforms. But then, that is part of the cultural milieu of that country. In the UK, you have the kilt-wearing Highlanders and so on. Perhaps some day you may have a special constabulary in Ireland based on ethnic identity.

Having said that, to emigrate to a Western country, and demand that you wear your native garb as uniform ( hijab, turban, yarmulke) raises questions of reasonableness. Religious dress requirements are usually a burden placed upon the less-educated by the orthodox in their own societies, and is more a symbol of backwardness than personal choice. It's not fair to ask an advanced society to take a leap backwards.

Those that want dress regulations relaxed do so because they are not able to overcome the demands of religious (actually parental) stricture and superstition . They are saying 'Hey, I want to be one of you, but I can't give up my religious need to wear a (turban, yarmulke, hijab). Please me it easy for us". This is different from saying "Hey, I have a religious right to wear it and you need to change your ways".

So Ireland, a country of a mere 4M happy folk, said "No thanks, maybe later". If the sentiment of the Irish people is to not allow turbans, so be it. I can't understand why someone would migrate to the West to enjoy the fruits of its toil since the Enlightenment, and also want to bring the baggage of darkness to dump upon their hosts. If you really want to walk around with a bone through your nose, you have every right to do it after hours.

I frankly think that patience has run thin after 9/11 - and the unfairness of being tolerant of intolerant people sinks in. At some point, as an immigrant, you need to make an effort to show that you are willing to give up the past and become one with your host country. And also let your parents know it.


User currently offlineRedArrows From Ireland, joined May 2007, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2728 times:

When you move to a new country you embrace their cultures,5 million people should't have to embrace yours.I understand his frustration but these are the rules of the Garda Síochánna and if you d'ont agree with then well then maybe it's not the job for you

User currently offlineTom12 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 1078 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

Good on the Irish government.

It is true that if these people come to our contries they should live by our rules. Turbans shouldn't be allowed anyway when the job requires you to wear there head gear, particularly when it is for your safety (Riot helmets).

I think that police officers are required to wear there hats a specific times anyway, like when they are on the beat.


Tom



"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25144 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2670 times:
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I can't see the problem with wearing the turban. Didn't they go through all this in Canada in 1990?

http://history.cbc.ca/history/?MIval...de_id=17&chapter_id=2&page_id=3?=E

"Canada’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms, entrenched in its constitution, had prevailed. Dhillon could wear his turban as a RCMP officer, establishing a precedent of great symbolic power."

Or has it changed there?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5681 posts, RR: 32
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 days ago) and read 2639 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
"Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, entrenched in its constitution, had prevailed. Dhillon could wear his turban as a RCMP officer, establishing a precedent of great symbolic power."

The server is down, so the link isn't working at the moment.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
I can't see the problem with wearing the turban. Didn't they go through all this in Canada in 1990?

Several countries have gone down this road, but that doesn't mean that they've chosen the right one. Like I said above, a police uniform is NO place for religious symbolism. A police officer should leave his religious identity at home. I don't want to see a Garda displaying a crucifix, kipa or turban. A person's religion is a personal and private thing and should be invisible in any police force.

My opinion was reinforced when a member of the Metropolitan Police Sikh Association in London, interviewed on TV this week, said that he was a Sikh first, and a police officer second. I VERY MUCH WELCOME diversity in the Gardaí, but a uniform is a uniform, and any prospective member knows what to expect when he joins: no long hair, no jewellery, no beards. And no nail varnish, skirts, sandals, stilettos, lipstick or turbans.

As Cormorin said above, there is almost an expectation among some cultures that they have a right to wear their religous sybols. Another British sikh interviewed on radio this week talked about wearing the turban in the Gardaí as a right, rather than a desire. What arrogance! It's no wonder that public opinion here is firmly behind the Gardaí's decision.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25144 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2627 times:
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Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 7):
I VERY MUCH WELCOME diversity in the Gardaí,

For Sikhs, their turban is an integral part of their culture. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 7):
a member of the Metropolitan Police Sikh Association in London, interviewed on TV this week, said that he was a Sikh first, and a police officer second.

I am a person before I am a job.

Uniforms are modified, with the changing times, or the changing society. The Sikh does not object to wearing the uniform - he seems to want to wear it - he is asking that a small modification be allowed, which does not impede his ability to fulfill the job.

Other societies have seen a value in this particular modification. If the Garda does not - if you do not - I can only shrug.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineHowSwedeitis From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2610 times:
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This is a rather tricky subject. While I agree that all religious symbols should be removed from a police uniform (including the crucifix) I think it's cool that UN Peacekeepers can have a blue hat or a blue turban!


Heja Sverige!!
User currently offlineTom12 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 1078 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 7):
A police officer should leave his religious identity at home

Exactly. A Police Officer should be an individual that comes across as someone who is completely balanced in everything, so there is no way he can be accused of being bias.



"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
User currently onlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5681 posts, RR: 32
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
For Sikhs, their turban is an integral part of their culture. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

Yes, and they are very welcome to live and work here. It's great to see cultural diversity, but if they want to join the police, the uniform is a job requirement. There are plenty of other jobs available where employers don't have a problem with religous symbols. Funny, with all the brouhaha over the turban, they don't seem to realise they'll have to shave their beards off as well.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
Uniforms are modified, with the changing times, or the changing society

Rules can be changed, of course, and I can see the beard one probably disappearing, but I can't see the rules being changed for sikhs, or anybody else, to display their religion on their uniform. And I'm not being racist either: if I saw a Garda displaying a crucifix I'd find that equally objectionable.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
Other societies have seen a value in this particular modification. If the Garda does not - if you do not - I can only shrug.

So where do you draw the line? Are Jewish members of the Gardaí to be given exemption from working on the sabbath? Or female muslim Gardaí allowed wear the hijab? You're opening a can of worms here. Who says that any government has to allow for religious strictures? France got a lot of stick over its prohibition of the hijab in classrooms, but still went ahead with it, and Tunisia has had a similar ban in government offices since the 1980s.


User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
For Sikhs, their turban is an integral part of their culture. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

True, but there are plenty of modern Sikhs who are clean-shaven and turban-less in India and the US. Their kids are probably tired of looking odd at school. In a way, the more 'intolerant' we are, the more we help their children become part of the 21st century.

I speak as an immigrant, and my grandfather had a ponytail and an earring back in my native village in India.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25144 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2531 times:
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Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 11):
Or female muslim Gardaí allowed wear the hijab? You're opening a can of worms here.

I would think that the hijab would impede their ability to do the job. As I said:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
he is asking that a small modification be allowed, which does not impede his ability to fulfill the job.

But the can of worms is already open.

I don't know what happened in Ireland, but in many countries, "modifications" to the uniform were made for women.

And, in many countries, I can well remember when simply being homosexual got you dismissed from the force - uniform or not.

Times change. Time changes.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5681 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2500 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
But the can of worms is already open.

I think in any police force allowances have had to be made for women, who are physically different from men, but the current female Garda uniform is the same for both sexes. There was a time when skirts were worn, but this seems to have been discontinued. That's COMPLETELY different from wearing religious symbols by any member of the force. I, and, going by public opinion, most of the people in this country, find this completely unacceptable. Religion is a personal, private matter, and if anyone wants to proclaim it let them do it in their private lives.

My local branch of PC World had a Sikh member of staff, and he looks very smart in his lilac turban, to match the company shirts. He's an advantage there as he can be spotted a mile away. Maybe this guy who wants to be a Garda should apply for a job there instead.  

[Edited 2007-08-26 02:22:13]

User currently offlineOverlander From Ireland, joined Aug 2005, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2498 times:

Is there a compromise situation available here?

Do Sikhs need to wear their 'turban' at all times or could they cover their hair and still fit in with in the requirements of the uniform while upholding their beliefs and also upholding the law.

I think it is possible.

All the best,

Overlander



It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25144 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2483 times:
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Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 14):
I, and, going by public opinion, most of the people in this country, find this completely unacceptable.

It used to be that many believed the open expression of one's sexuality when serving serving one's country was "completely unacceptable".

I am glad that some countries, at least, have grown past that.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5681 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
I am glad that some countries, at least, have grown past that.

This has nothing to do with sexuality, and there is even a Garda gay liaison officer to deal with issues regarding the gay community. Whether he's gay or not I don't know, but he wears the same uniform as the rest of the Gardaí.

We're coming at it here from two very different countries, albeit of a similar size and climate . . . you have to remember that New Zealand has had a relatively peaceful history, and has never had a civil war. Ireland has had a turbulent past, and in the past people have been killed in the name of politics or religion. If there's one good reason religious symbolism in the police force is to be avoided, this is it.

[Edited 2007-08-26 03:11:23]

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25144 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2460 times:
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Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 17):
This has nothing to do with sexuality

It is representative of an attitude to "difference" - cultural diversity - and the public opinion of it.

Police work is a dangerous occupation, as is any defence force. A member of that force - male or female - must understand that it may involve danger to their person, and potentially at least, danger to their life.

If someone is prepared to do that, it seems a great pity to me that their willingness to make that sacrifice should be negated by a piece of cloth.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 17):
you have to remember that New Zealand has had a relatively peaceful history,

I live in New Zealand now. but I was born and raised in far more turbulent societies, more so than ever Ireland was, where, to this day, people are killed on a daily basis because of religious intolerance.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5681 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2454 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
If someone is prepared to do that, it seems a great pity to me that their willingness to make that sacrifice should be negated by a piece of cloth.

Exactly, and if Sikhs have no problem taking off the turban for swimming I don't see any problem making an allowance for police duties, although their long hair and beards would be another problem.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
to this day, people are killed on a daily basis because of religious intolerance.

Which is the whole point of this debate: if one person has an objection to another on the basis of religion, a police force should not only be neutral, but be seen to be neutral.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Quoting RedArrows (Reply 4):
When you move to a new country you embrace their cultures,5 million people should't have to embrace yours

No one is asking the Irish people to embrace their culture, you just have to respect diversity

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
police uniform is no place for religious symbolism

the question is will it prohibit him from doing his job well

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
For Sikhs, their turban is an integral part of their culture. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

Exactly

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
which does not impede his ability to fulfill the job.

Yup, If a person wants to preserve their cultural heritage they have the right to do so. Basically, some people here are arguing that if a Sikh, Jew, Muslim moves to any other country where they are the minority they must lose their cultural ways and adopt the native customs, lets all embrace diversity and stop limiting the opportunities for people because of their religious preference.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently onlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5681 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2445 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 20):
the question is will it prohibit him from doing his job well

The thing is, he could do his job just as well not wearing the turban.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 20):
Basically, some people here are arguing that if a Sikh, Jew, Muslim moves to any other country where they are the minority they must lose their cultural ways and adopt the native customs, lets all embrace diversity and stop limiting the opportunities for people because of their religious preference.

Like I said earlier, do you exempt a Jewish member of the force from working the Sabbath? Where do you draw the line here?


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2435 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 21):
The thing is, he could do his job just as well not wearing the turban.

no, the way it works as I know in most countries who claim to be "democratic" and respective of people's beliefs, would allow that small adjustment.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 21):
Like I said earlier, do you exempt a Jewish member of the force from working the Sabbath?

Maybe So, the only problem is I cant relate, because most Orthodox Jews in this country dont really work those jobs as I know it.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25144 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2431 times:
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Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 19):
Which is the whole point of this debate: if one person has an objection to another on the basis of religion, a police force should not only be neutral, but be seen to be neutral.

It is not my point.

My point is that no one person should have an objection to another on the basis of religion (or anything else).

Certainly a police force should be "neutral". But it should also be representative of the community that it protects.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 21):
do you exempt a Jewish member of the force from working the Sabbath? Where do you draw the line here?

I guess the Israeli police force manages just fine.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5681 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
My point is that no one person should have an objection to another on the basis of religion (or anything else).

And the Gardaí have NO objection whatsover to anyone, on the basis of race, sexuality or religion. The only requirement is that they wear the uniform and do their job.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
Certainly a police force should be "neutral". But it should also be representative of the community that it protects.

So you either avoid displaying tribal/religous/sexual symbols altogether, or you display them all. You could do either, but the former is far simpler than the latter.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
I guess the Israeli police force manages just fine

So the Israeli police force is prepared to set aside religious strictures to do their job. That is as it should be.

We're not going to agree here Mariner. You believe cultural diversity takes precedence over law, I believe otherwise. Look at the debate going on in the US at the moment where (again Sikhs) believe they should be exempt from full secuity checks. This is where "cultural diversity" causes problems.


25 LAXspotter : Thats right, stop "acting" like you guys are pissed off about Political Corectness or displaying religious symbols, I see that you guys who are again
26 Mariner : I do not believe that for one moment. Everyone is subject to law. Everyone. But - laws are changed as the society changes, just as the laws regarding
27 Braybuddy : It's not a case of being reluctant to accept cultural diversity: this country could not function at the moment if all the Poles, Czechs, Filipinos, N
28 Braybuddy : There were never any laws here barring homosexuals from joining the Gardaí. In the past they wouldn't have been open about it, but it's never been a
29 Post contains images Comorin : What if these religious gentlemen wanted to join the Irish Constabulary ? Their religion prohibits the wearing of clothes...
30 Post contains images Mariner : They didn't need individual law. Homosexuality used to be illegal in Ireland (until 1993, I believe?). Back in the 60's, I was close friends with Mic
31 Braybuddy : You're right on the second count: homosexuality was indeed decriminalised in 1993, but the fact that it was illegal up to then didn't mean that gays
32 Post contains images HAWK21M : Its common out here. However It would depend on the Country in question to determine the rules. regds MEL
33 Mariner : I can't speak for the 70's and 80's, but in the 60's - as noted above - Mr. Macliammoir and Mr. Edwards thought differently from you. I was present w
34 Braybuddy : Exactly, any minority group is a welcome addition to a police force. But to expect it to bend to suit its demands is completely unacceptable, and als
35 Post contains links Mariner : I can only shrug. I find your use of the word "arrogant" depressing. Other countries have come to terms with this. The turban is now officially recog
36 L410Turbolet : Multikulti zealots would strongly disagree with that idea. That's apples and oranges. Physical aspects due to different sexes and cultural/religious
37 Mariner : No, sir. The point is that the uniform was modified - for whatever reason. Just as the RCMP and the Metropolitan Police modified their uniforms, for
38 MD11Engineer : During the last few centuries, Ireland was the site of a very bloody civil war based largely on religion (Catholics versus Protestants). Just look at
39 Mariner : But the police in Northern Ireland have accepted the concept of the turban as part of the uniform. mariner[Edited 2007-08-27 12:51:35]
40 MD11Engineer : Still a religious symbol like wearing a cruzifix or a kippa. Jan
41 Banco : Yes. This seems from the outside to be an instance of being difficult for the sake of it. If you want a representative police force (and surely you d
42 Mariner : But in recent decades, there has been far more religious strife - more blood shed, more deaths - in Northern Ireland than in the Republic, yet in Nor
43 AKLDELNonstop : Or he could come to good old NZ where people are not just tolerant but celebrate all cultures, religions, festivals and diversity
44 Post contains images Mariner : Imagine the fuss if the NZ police told a Maori cop he couldn't wear his greenstone taonga. mariner
45 Post contains images HAWK21M : Same in Good old India & one can add the excellent music & of course Food regds MEL
46 Braybuddy : I can only shrug too. Who's to say that other countries have made the right decision? Allowances breed allowances, so where do you stop? This is not
47 Post contains links L410Turbolet : We've seen that before haven't we? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5410094.stm Can you imagine the sh*tstorm if a white policeman refused to guard
48 Mariner : Yes, we are. I regard all religious symbols as retrogressive, but I will not try and impose my view on any one else. It is not so vey long ago that t
49 Post contains links and images Braybuddy : Ahem . . . I posted too quickly: a two-minute Google search threw-up the following: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3192425.stm http://www.st
50 Post contains images Overlander : Dear All, In reply 15, I offered a comprimise, but it seems I have to issue the ultimate and Monty is going to have to bowl you his googly. All the be
51 Post contains images Braybuddy : I've never heard of this in my lifetime, but seeing that you've been around longer than me Mariner I won't argue with you. Indeed, Ireland was a very
52 Mariner : For some people, it is their faith in God that enables them to make that sacrifice. It used to be that on Ash Wednesday, in Dublin, you would see man
53 Braybuddy : Thankfully I have never come across this. I'd say any member of the Gardaí nowadays would rather be skinned alive than risk the ridicule of his mate
54 Post contains links Mariner : Out of interest, I just did a Google check - Garda Ash Wednesday - and it came up: http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0827/breaking28.htm
55 Overlander : Dear Braybuddy. Before making a rather rash statement to help yourself, do not dismiss the MAJORITY of good people who carry out their work without t
56 Braybuddy : It would never have been prohibited, because something like this has never come up, but like I said, I've NEVER seen or heard of any members of the G
57 Mariner : I think that would be a very great pity. I am not religious - I don't believe in any god, deity or higher power, or any form of after life - but I ab
58 Braybuddy : He joined the Garda Reserve, which was only set up last year and has yet to fully find it's role. There were objections about this force from the Gar
59 Post contains links Mariner : My point is that I cannot fault the man, who seems to have behaved impeccably. Similarly, I cannot fault Baltej Singh Dhillan, in Canada, who did app
60 Post contains links Braybuddy : Good for him, and political correctness, and Canada has the reputation of being paranoid about it. But bad for the Canadian police when every religio
61 Mariner : Huh? I fail to see why it is "political correctness", or why Canada is any more or less paranoid than the UK. Huh? I've already given you my opinion
62 Braybuddy : I define it as bending over backwards to avoid offending minorities, be they racial, sexual or religious. As a matter of interest, how do you define
63 Mariner : I don't know what it means. I regard it as a buzz phrase, a catch-all, I don't use it. Was it "political correctness" to change the laws of homosexua
64 Braybuddy : These are equality issues. And don't try and tell me that wearing a religious symbol in any police force is an equality issue. Religion is, and shoul
65 Mariner : Um - I don't regard decriminalising homosexuality as an "equality" issue. As for as "equality" there may still be some way to go. And I don't think t
66 Braybuddy : We're going off topic here . . . but if you don't see decriminalising homosexuality as an equality issue, what do you see it as? I've no problem with
67 Mariner : The basis of homosexual law reform in Britain - and subsequently in several societies with roots in British law - was the Wolfenden Report - the Roya
68 Braybuddy : You're giving me the history of how homosexuality was decriminalised in the UK. Yet your original point on the matter was I don't know if you are gay
69 HAWK21M : Ask an Army personell out here from any religon which comes 1st Religon or Nation & the Answer will be the Country undoubtly. Guess the question was
70 AKLDELNonstop : Good find mate!!! But as a migrant into NZ i can vouch for these articles being rather sensationalistic and are not representative of the majority. T
71 MD11Engineer : No, the question is: Should he join at the cost of no displaying publically of which religion he is. IMO religion is a personal matter and religious
72 Post contains images Braybuddy : As it should be! I realise that, and this is the case in most countries. I only posted those as your original post implied that there was no racism o
73 MD11Engineer : In this case I'm not talking about e.g. a headscarf worn by a visitor or student (or similarly a cross on a necklace or akippa), I'm talking about bi
74 Mariner : Because the original British decriminalising of homosexuality - changing the law - was not about equality. There was no great social push for equalit
75 Braybuddy : This is as it should be. Well I did think it was a possibility, but the old fraud kept a lot of company, gay and straight. While technically gays wer
76 Mariner : Who is asking for carte blanche? He asked if could wear his turban. They - eventually - said no. He accepted it. And I still don't see the problem. S
77 Braybuddy : I'm taking about employees dictating terms to employers and meant in a general context. If you allow Sikhs to wear turbans you cannot refuse other re
78 Mariner : But - no one is dictating terms to any employer. He asked. That is all. They said no. He accepted it. Are potential employers not allowed to ask ques
79 Post contains images Braybuddy : I'm talking about other police forces where this has already happened. I'm not talking about this case. It hasn't happened . . . yet. They've said no
80 Mariner : I would not make such a judgement of what he - or anyone - believes. The devout Sikhs believe they have said it, they've said so. And it sure reads t
81 Braybuddy : If he's interpreting his religion in an unnecessarily strict way, what do call that? I'm very curious: tell me where you've read this. Or even better
82 Mariner : I wouldn't cal it anything. I don't involve myself in matters that involve the depth of people's faith, or their interpretation of it. It is said the
83 Braybuddy : You're not being a bit . . . em, politically correct here Mariner, are you? Please do. I'll be very interested to see how they twist this one.
84 Mariner : I think I have said before, I don't know what the term "politcally correct" means. If someone believes, devoutly believes, they need to flagellate wi
85 Braybuddy : Hey . . . we're in agreement once again. Good for you, but I know nothing about you other than what you've put on your profile page and what you've p
86 QR332 : I agree with the decision, it is perfectly fair to require someone joining a Western police force to stick to the requirements laid out and to leave t
87 Mariner : When I was at school in Jordan, some women referred to the hijab as covering the head, but not the face. Some said it was the "half veil", that cover
88 Braybuddy : In either case, some people, depending on how serious they take their religion, may find it uncomfortable. Surely any police force, and particularly
89 Mariner : Sorry, I have no idea what that means. Everyone carries their own beliefs - and prejudices - with them, in or out of uniform. Or - everyone that I ha
90 Braybuddy : You're kidding here.
91 Mariner : Why would I be kidding? mariner
92 Post contains images Braybuddy : Okay . . . maybe I unfairly made the assumption that you'd be able to make the intellectual leap to realise I'm talking about the displaying of relig
93 QR332 : The hijab is strictly the covering of the hair - it is completely seperate from the veil, which is worn only by the most religious or conservative me
94 MD11Engineer : Exactly. And the same goes for political symbols. Jan
95 Mariner : I think I've made my views on that very clear. But I stil have no idea what yoiu mean by a "neutral" police force. I can only tell you what I was tau
96 Post contains images Braybuddy : Now I do know that you're taking the piss. I was in the Gate Theatre last night and do you know there is a bust of your buddy Michéal MacLiammoir in
97 Post contains images Mariner : No, sir. Thank you. mariner
98 BHXFAOTIPYYC : Interesting discussion, especially between Bradbuddy and Mariner. I lived in Canada in 1990 when the Sikh / RCMP issue was in full swing and it's the
99 Braybuddy : Then I'd recommend dictionary.com This is the whole point of the argument: you either allow all religions to display their symbols or you do not. The
100 Mariner : What use is the dictionary? It isn't about the meaning of individual words. It is about the nature of the police force, what anyone expects the polic
101 Post contains images Braybuddy : I think we established that a long time ago, Mariner
102 QR332 : Here, I disagree. I think it's all relative to the culture of the country. For example, in Ireland, the Sikh turban is not a cultural norm, hence it
103 Post contains images Braybuddy : I can understand where you're coming from QR332, but would an Israeli Muslim feel more comfortable dealing with a police officer with a kipa or witho
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