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Should Israel Be Where It Is?  
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Hi guys !


Imagine Israel wouldn´t be where it is , imagine it being for example in the northern USA , Germany or whatever ...
We wouldn´t have the problems with the Palestinians who are in someway right , they lost a big part of their country!

I know Israel was originally there , but this was hundreds of years ago , IMO this is not applicable , it´s like the Italians would say southern Germany belongs to us because 2000 years ago it was our country ! (this comparison could seem a bit stupid)


maybe the allies should have thought about where putting Israel , where it is now , it´s like a cow with many tigers in a cage !


I know now we can´t change it , but was it an mistake to found Israel where it is , ignoring the "Tigers" ?!


Please don´t understand this wrong ! I just mean that all this problems with Iran and so on wouldn´t exist now ...


so what do you think ??


Konstantin


http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s292/constantinb/israel_pol01.jpg

195 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
maybe the allies should have thought about where putting Israel , where it is now , it´s like a cow with many tigers in a cage !

Believe it or not, Herzl the founder of Zionism first stated they move to a country in Africa, I believe it was a region near Lake Victoria.


This thread is going to a mudslinging contest in ...... 3 2 1



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3075 times:

If Israel hadn't been created in 1948, Syria or Egypt would have gobbled up Palestine, not the Palestinians.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
I just mean that all this problems with Iran and so on wouldn´t exist now ...

You are dreaming if you think that the problems we face with Iraq, Syria, Iran, etc would not exist if Israel were not there. As proven this past week when Israel bombed part of Northern Syria, Israel is an asset to American stability and strategic interests in the region.


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4670 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3069 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
As proven this past week when Israel bombed part of Northern Syria

and how exactly does that PROVE that it adds to the american stability?



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3071 times:

It's not a problem of location, it's a problem of implementation.

User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 1):
Believe it or not, Herzl the founder of Zionism first stated they move to a country in Africa, I believe it was a region near Lake Victoria.

It was Uganda, actually. Herzl was not a very religious Zionist, he was more of a political Zionist. His concern was creating a homeland where Jews would be able to control their own fates rather than be subject to the whims of the Gentile majority, for the safety of the Jews. He didn't much care where that place was to be. However, he failed to realize at that point just how important the idea of returning to the ancestral homeland was to other Zionists.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 5):
It was Uganda, actually. Herzl was not a very religious Zionist, he was more of a political Zionist. His concern was creating a homeland where Jews would be able to control their own fates rather than be subject to the whims of the Gentile majority, for the safety of the Jews. He didn't much care where that place was to be. However, he failed to realize at that point just how important the idea of returning to the ancestral homeland was to other Zionists.

Well this man seems pretty inteligent , i think they´ld have decided this way if they could have seen how it is now !


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3037 times:

Israel is where it is. Dealing with "what if" solves nothing, and the only ones who have a problem with where Israel is, are the ones who want Israel destroyed.

User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2096 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3036 times:

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
maybe the allies should have thought about where putting Israel , where it is now , it´s like a cow with many tigers in a cage !

To all it intents and purposes, it wasn't the Allies who invented Israel. Jews moved there (to the British Mandate of Palestine) throughout the 1920s, 30s and 40s, and declared Israel themselves. Initially they lived very harmoniously with the Palestinian Arabs, and I suppose the Allies weren't in any hurry to stop them forming Israel. They understandably became a very militant bunch.

It's infinitely more complicated than that, but that's my scant understanding anyway.


User currently offlineWingnut767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3030 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
If Israel hadn't been created in 1948, Syria or Egypt would have gobbled up Palestine, not the Palestinians.

Correct. When they destroyed the jews they planned on dividing it up amongst themselves. They are more guilty of the current situation than anyone else

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
It's not a problem of location, it's a problem of implementation

I think you are right on.They really blew it.


User currently offlineYanksn4 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1404 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
We wouldn´t have the problems with the Palestinians who are in someway right , they lost a big part of their country!

except that Palestine was in no way a soverign country at the time.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
I know Israel was originally there , but this was hundreds of years ago , IMO this is not applicable

unless you already have a good size population of Jews in the area that have been there for hundreds of years despite the Arab majority. To think that Jews were not in the middle east before the Holocaust is ignoring historical facts

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
I know now we can´t change it , but was it an mistake to found Israel where it is , ignoring the "Tigers" ?!

so the arabs are unhappy, big deal. Since when does everything have to be accepted by Arabs / Muslims in order for something to take place.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Please don´t understand this wrong ! I just mean that all this problems with Iran and so on wouldn´t exist now ...

you can't say we wouldn't be having the same problems if Israel was never created. Islam (along with other major religions) has had a very violent pasts that still continues to this day. Conflicts between muslims and non-muslims in India, Philippines, Thailand, etc. are in no way related to Israel.



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User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 6):
Well this man seems pretty inteligent , i think they´ld have decided this way if they could have seen how it is now !

I don't see why. If you look at it dispassionately, Zionism is very similar to the types of religious extremism that are attempting to establish exclusively evangelical Christian enclaves in South Carolian, and which created the Afrikaner wannabe homeland of Verwoerdia in South Africa - people using the excuse of religion as a reason to want to seperate themselves from others. Now in the case of Zionism, they did have the precedent of having had a geographic homeland in the past (2000 years before), but in most other respects, the similarities are there. Rightly or wrongly, Israel exists, by decree of the UN, so there we go - but it would be interesting to imagine what the Middle East would have been like had the holocaust not happened.

- Assuming WW2 didn't happen, the British mandates in the Middle East would most probably have been given independence in the 50's right after India (although India would have been independent earlier if the war hadn't intervened)
- Palestine would have been a province of Jordan, most likely, with a small and vocal religious Jewish minority presence in Jerusalem along with the other religions.
- Would pan-Arabism have taken off in the way it did without the uniting influence of opposition to Israel ? Maybe, maybe not.
- Would Islamic extremism have taken off in the way it did, for similar reasons ? No reason to suppose it would have done, secularism was very strong in the Middle East during the first half of the 20th century.
- Anti-semitism in Western Europe outside of Germany was definitely on its way out in the 30's - it still existed, but was less and less tolerated, in the same way that racism was on the decline. Different story in Eastern Europe, where anti-semitism was deeper seated, it would have taken longer to disappear.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2999 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
If Israel hadn't been created in 1948, Syria or Egypt would have gobbled up Palestine, not the Palestinians.

yes, but Palestinians would not have to be kicked off their property, that is what is the problem today.

Quoting JRadier (Reply 3):
and how exactly does that PROVE that it adds to the american stability?

Jurgen, its American propoganda, dont listen.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 6):
Well this man seems pretty inteligent , i think they´ld have decided this way if they could have seen how it is now !

I can say with confidence that we would be having the same problems today if Israel was located somewhere else, the fact of the matter is that the presence of Israel and the subjugation of the Palestinian people is the reason why we have terrorism today.

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 10):
so the arabs are unhappy, big deal. Since when does everything have to be accepted by Arabs / Muslims in order for something to take place.

Since when did we have to give up one man's land to another to remove our guilt of our inability to prevent the Holocaust?



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineKLMA330 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 697 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2986 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 12):
yes, but Palestinians would not have to be kicked off their property, that is what is the problem today.

"their Property"? Right...


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2982 times:

Quoting KLMA330 (Reply 13):
"their Property"? Right...

So whose property was it then ? The previous tenants having left the property oh, um, about 2000 years previously...


User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1330 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2960 times:

Konstantin,

I have often asked myself that very question, not as an attempt to be a revisionist historian or out of disagreement with the Zionists having their own land. In an ideal world they could have been located someplace where the neighbors wouldn't be so intent on "destroying" them, but alas history decided to give us a different kind of challenge.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 11):
If you look at it dispassionately, Zionism is very similar to the types of religious extremism that are attempting to establish exclusively evangelical Christian enclaves in South Carolian, and which created the Afrikaner wannabe homeland of Verwoerdia in South Africa - people using the excuse of religion as a reason to want to seperate themselves from others

I think this is where we find the root of the problem, as both Zionists and their neighbors have used extreme religious ideals to support their decisions. Lately, a lot of people seem to forget that extreme ideas are usually the first step of major political unrest, whether you are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, etc.

I guess all we can (and must) do now is try and make the current situation work, ensuring the safety and well-being of BOTH Israelis and Palestinians (way too often, as a nation, we tend to cater only to the former). Additionally, we should learn from the experience and avoid making the same mistakes again.

Good topic Konstantin, and one that can lead to a lot of deep discussions!

Cheers!

Charles


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2932 times:

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 15):
Good topic Konstantin, and one that can lead to a lot of deep discussions!

And to what end? Israel is where Israel is? Do what the Arabs have never been able to do-deal with it.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2926 times:

Quoting KLMA330 (Reply 13):
"their Property"? Right...

No, I guess I'm wrong because I am gonna go along with that Bullshit evangelical crap, it is Jew's god given right to kill anyone who tries assert their dominance over that region, and it is our Christian duty to make sure that the Jews have our full support in repelling any movement of the Palestinians to have a shot at having their ancestral homes back.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):
Do what the Arabs have never been able to do-deal with it.

Huh? Unfortunately the reason why Israel is so damn tense these days because it knows that it is no longer the powerful figure it once used to be, if they were so powerful they would have destroyed Hezbolloah which was Olmert's plan, not what happened. They getting tense because Iran wants to assert their dominance over the region as well, they want to be on the same playing field as Israel and that isnt in the best interest of the US.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2906 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 18):
Huh? Unfortunately the reason why Israel is so damn tense these days because it knows that it is no longer the powerful figure it once used to be, if they were so powerful they would have destroyed Hezbolloah which was Olmert's plan, not what happened. They getting tense because Iran wants to assert their dominance over the region as well, they want to be on the same playing field as Israel and that isnt in the best interest of the US.

I'm sure that makes you happy, LAXspotter.

Fact is, Israel can still defend itself; they can still beat any standing army in the region, hands-down. Israel isn't going anywhere, despite you fervent wish that it would vanish.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2904 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
Fact is, Israel can still defend itself; they can still beat any standing army in the region, hands-down. Israel isn't going anywhere, despite you fervent wish that it would vanish

yeah, ofcourse they can defend itself, but I wanna see a war where Israel survives on its own, instead of us helping them financially and militarily. I just want to see a fair fight.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineWingnut767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2896 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 22):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
Fact is, Israel can still defend itself; they can still beat any standing army in the region, hands-down. Israel isn't going anywhere, despite you fervent wish that it would vanish

yeah, ofcourse they can defend itself, but I wanna see a war where Israel survives on its own, instead of us helping them financially and militarily. I just want to see a fair fight

your muslim bias is showing LAX
6 or 7 Arab armies to one little one is not fair enough to you. besides back then most of there equiptment did not come from America. It was not untill the early 70's that we started to supply them with more. And are they not a soverign nation created by the UN. Why is the UN not protecting Israels rights?


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2888 times:

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 23):
your muslim bias is showing LAX

oh yes, the fact that I'm born into one religion is really playing a part, damn it I'm a deist.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 23):
Why is the UN not protecting Israels rights?

When they stop treating Palestinians like second-class citizens, only then.

I'm for a two state solution, but what I see essentially as the denial of Palestinian rights is the reason why I'm an anti-zionist. You choose to listen to suscribe to a different media and different authors, and I have that right as well. I know I wont convince anyone and no one is gonna convince anyone else



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineWingnut767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2881 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
I'm for a two state solution, but what I see essentially as the denial of Palestinian rights is the reason why I'm an anti-zionist. You choose to listen to suscribe to a different media and different authors, and I have that right as well. I know I wont convince anyone and no one is gonna convince anyone else

They had the chance for a two state solution back in 48. But the Arabs would not stand for it. Who is to blame for that?


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2878 times:

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 25):
But the Arabs would not stand for it. Who is to blame for that?

well that was almost 60 years ago, oh BTW when the UN did draw up the two lands for the Arabs and the Jews, guess what the Arabs would have to move off their ancestral lands to another designated place, would you have liked to do that, I doubt it.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineEmirates773ER From Pakistan, joined Jun 2005, 1449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2858 times:

It surprises me every time when when people bring up the "Israel kicked arab asses in ...." issue every time we have a debate, I ask these very people about what happened last summer? Why could Israel not kick some hezbollah ass? If Israel were to ever get into a war with any Arab state the consequences what be very different, a large high tech army means squat in todays world and thankfully Israel knows this unlike many members on this forum.


The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
25 UH60FtRucker : The answer is the same problem that the US military has faced with the Iraq War. The US military excels on the linear battlefield. Tank on tank, plan
26 LAXspotter : would you look at that, we can agree on something but here is where I dont agree What makes us so certain that the enemies Israel will face in the fu
27 UH60FtRucker : I wonder... what exactly is a 'fair fight"? Would this mean that whoever Israel fought would also have to go without foreign aid? Would they have to
28 UH60FtRucker : But they are already facing that enemy. They have been fighting them for over two decades. And yes, the next war may not involve tanks against tanks.
29 Wingnut767 : Bingo That is were you are wrong. Do not believe that you are getting unbiased reporting from the MSM. They tell you a story that they want you to he
30 Skywatch : Although a novel idea, I don't believe that most Jews would have settled for a "homeland" away from their historical homeland. Besides, after the Hol
31 AerorobNZ : Possession is 9/10ths of the law, especially using English law as a base, so I agree with you. I think everyone except the Jewish people accept that
32 LAXspotter : damn it dude, Jewish ancestral rights extend to about 2000 years, Arab ancestral rights to only about 60 years, when the jews were kicked out 2000 ye
33 N710PS : The Arab nations war within themselves and always have with or without Isreal in the pictue. When there is no reason to fight they find a reason. It i
34 Klaus : Looking back at a long, long history of intense infighting among the various christian factions actually confirms your claim - christians have been w
35 Coleplane : What do think would happen if Israel put down their weapons? What would happen if the US abandoned Israel? As do we LAXspotter. As do we...
36 LAXspotter : Thankyou Klaus. Thankyou.
37 Emirates773ER : And I am not disagreeing on that, but getting drunk on your past victories to assume success in future ones is a wet dream at best. The enemy had cha
38 Wingnut767 : In the mid-1200's, Mamelukes, originally soldier-slaves of the Arabs based in Egypt, established an empire that in time included the area of Palestin
39 UH60FtRucker : Then how do you explain what happened only a few weeks ago on the Heights? Surely had the situation turned hot, the battle would not have been a figh
40 LAXspotter : believe it or not muhammad was actually invited to Yathrib because of his Arbitration skills and his respect amongst the arab peoples, and please sto
41 Emirates773ER : The crux of the debate is how you would define a "win", is it a destruction of a countries conventional army or a total defeat of any group within th
42 Falcon84 : Then take away all the Russian, Chinese and French weapons the Arabs have gotten over the years. Ever think of that? Fact is, war is not about a "fai
43 RJpieces : You say that it's American propaganda to say that Israel is a strategic ally but then demonstrate it in your next post. Good work. Haha, are you kidd
44 LAXspotter : hey, next time listen to OBL for his causes of engaging America, then you will understand, no where do he mention its because we're christian, or we'
45 Falcon84 : When does any American listen to, let alone by, the nonsense OBL says? Do you? Do you buy it? Do you subscribe to it? And OBL has said he wants us al
46 AA777 : I dont know where you came up with that argument from....and even though you are seemingly pulling it out of thin air- let me humor you and say, "ok.
47 Yellowstone : Agreed. Although sometimes I wish the US would make its support a bit more contingent on Israel maintaining its moral superiority to the degree that
48 LAXspotter : What kind of question is that? I live in the US, I love it here, but that doesnt mean I wont criticize the policies of Israel because that will make
49 RJpieces : I remember him mentioning the US stationing troops in Saudi Arabia, and a wide host of other issues including Israel. So does listening to Osama bin
50 Yellowstone : The main thing I think they ought to do? Dismantle the West Bank settlements. Plain and simple. They violate the Geneva Convention against colonizing
51 LAXspotter : Precisely. Do a little search on the deaths of Palestinian civilian deaths due to Israeli attacks and deaths of Israeli's due to war, the numbers mig
52 AA777 : Where is the evidence that supports such a notion? Its nonsense. And, again, it still doesnt mean that the Palestinians would have lost everything. T
53 JRadier : I know, but I'm getting fed up by Americans (not in any way all of them) that think they know how the world works from watching CNN/FOX etc and makin
54 NAV20 : Darn good thread, LHStarAlliance, a question well worth asking. Obviously the most sensible thing to have done, with hindsight, would have been to est
55 LAXspotter : that could be said of all the people here who have no "concern" for the Palestinians, I bet theyre afraid to even walk and talk to an Arab on the str
56 Post contains images Baroque : 1. Level playing fields. US arms and technology are no doubt important but the most important assistance comes through blocking or changing the form
57 OHLHD : The same goes for the Israelis. Scharon threw the chance away as well. So don't just blame Arafat. The question on its own is indeed interesting and
58 Windshear : As Yellowstone pointed out, that place was supposed to be Uganda. There is actually an Israeli song (not that old), that is called "lamma lo Uganda?"
59 Post contains images Falcon84 : I'm sure one could blame Isarel for actually defending themselves against these attacks.
60 Post contains images LHStarAlliance : IMHO we have a big problem , we have a tabu on criticizing Israel or how Israel acts , the only way to get a peaceful middle east is by winning the h
61 Post contains images David L : Would I be pissed off if someone threw me off my homeland? Damn right I would. However... The same points crop up concerning the "fairness" of creatin
62 ME AVN FAN : Based on WW-II and things then, Israel ought to be in Bavaria or Schleswig-Hiolstein.
63 Falcon84 : Why are people like you so damned worried in why WE have to understand them? They're doing irrational acts, so the why really doesn't matter now? Why
64 OHLHD : By visiting the Al-Aksa Mosque??? Not only this but people ( also here) do believe that Israel is always the enemy. Israel has killed many many innoc
65 Post contains images LHStarAlliance : Well if we want them to stop this is the only way ... The day the Palestinians see the west is being good to us - by investing in Palestine - this da
66 L410Turbolet : The EU dumped billions upon billions of EUR into Palestine through its "buy your own terrorist" program and the resulting effect was exactly ZERO as
67 ME AVN FAN : - That "Cartoon-War" had nothing to do with Palestine.
68 Post contains images Baroque : Funny, nobody has picked up on the issue of compensation. How is it that what is worth so much to Israel is assessed as not having had any value to it
69 Post contains images Wingnut767 : have you been there lately. Or are you watching Wolf Blitzer again? And how many Israeli children died in Schools, cafe's or on a bus ? On the day th
70 Post contains images NAV20 : These sorts of 'impossible' problems DO have a funny habit of eventually sorting themselves out, guys. In the most unlikely ways. In 1787 a lot of pe
71 Post contains links Baroque : Well you did pick up on compensation even if in a very odd fashion. But you are at it again Wn. Kindly cite the pages that you copy so diligently. Th
72 Baroque : Sorry you did indeed and I missed it coming in just before I posted. And what is more you explained it better. And now I have found your answer writt
73 NAV20 : Wingnut - on the same basis, are present-day 'Israelis' the same nomadic 'Children of Israel' of Biblical times? Even the ones from the United States
74 OHLHD : With this provocation, Israel and especially Ariel Sharon showed the world that they never wanted peace. Now Olmert is looking for Abbas because he h
75 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Of course, because the ultimate proof of Palestinian desire for peace with Israel is to respond to (supposed) "provocation" with 6 years of all-out v
76 Post contains links Baroque : You could also have cited a later part of the Wiki article from which you too some/all or this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palest
77 OHLHD : I did not say that the palestinians are holy! I was only refering to Israel! I am not defendingtheir actions but want to show that there are 2 partie
78 Post contains links Wingnut767 : Part of my reasoning for going far one sided is because you have many posters who make it all of Israels problem. I am just trying to make a point. T
79 Post contains images RJpieces : Because that will result in "peace"? Anyway you cut it, it is wrong to criticize Israel on this front. In 2005, Israel went through a tumultuous inte
80 Wingnut767 : I had no idea that Hezbollah was the national Army of Lebanon (or Iran, I keep getting confused)
81 Post contains images JRadier : You still haven't replied to my initial post . quick and simple: Hezbollah abducts 2 Israeli soldiers, after which Israel started bombing the living d
82 Post contains links NAV20 : Great in #79, Wingnut767 - we're pretty well in complete agreement. I'm damned sure they would - in fact they're committed to accepting the 1967 borde
83 ME AVN FAN : The original idea of the PA leadership was to have an uprising of a month or so, but matters got out of hand, as Hamas took the opportunity to move i
84 Falcon84 : Got out of hand? You jest? So, Israel should just let the rocket attacks, and bombings go unanswered, right? Uh, OK. Israel attacked Lebanon because
85 Yellowstone : While it is true that for hundreds of years the accepted practice in warfare was to conquer land and settle it with your own people to expand your co
86 AA777 : The problem has nothing to do with your false notion that the Arab/Muslim world is 'centuries' behind the west.... that is the typical ignorant argum
87 NAV20 : Not really, Falcon84, not in the long run, not if you have reasonable luck........ Oddly enough, my earliest memory is of (German) bombs dropping. Wh
88 Falcon84 : Ah, I see. So that makes it easy for the Israeli-haters on here to hate them, no matter what they do. I get it.
89 Wingnut767 : Just to edit my post a little. I know that the borders of 47 or 67 cannot be set in stone. Cities have grown and population demographics have shifted
90 Post contains images Wingnut767 : Whose holy site is it. By going to a Jewish holy site they are inflaming or provocative. You have got to be kidding. Because someone plants a mosque
91 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : No, it is fact. The PA leadership regarded that Intifada II as a matter of a month with demonstrations and some stone-shootings, but with a leader du
92 ME AVN FAN : - If you visit the place you will see that BOTH the Dome of the Rocks (Omar Mosque) and the el-Aqsa in reality are on the side of the old Temple-area
93 OHLHD : Ariel Sharon knew what would happen once he goes there! My point is if he knew it why he went there! I am not kidding! It is a holy site for the Arab
94 NAV20 : Don't get it, Falcon84? In my limited experience ,'warfare' is 99% about one group of ordinary people being encouraged by politicians to blow (or att
95 Skywatch : Israel used the lower end of their firepower on Hezbollah. If their goal would have been eradication, then Lebanon would still be picking through the
96 Post contains images Falcon84 : You're joking, right? Only one guy could stop it? Really? You're killing me, dude. Israel should have attacked Hezbollah everywhere they were at, and
97 Wingnut767 : Thanks for the info on the area. Like I said before. It should be an open city. No walls and no ones capital. Just a place that all religions can com
98 JGPH1A : I don't think it's impossible. And I see no reason why Jerusalem can't be the capital for both the Palestinians and the Israelis, as well as an open
99 RJpieces : Which is exactly what was offered to the Palestinians in 2000 (the one for one land trades). And you are wrong about the narrow fingers thing (althou
100 Post contains images HuskyAviation : And I'd like to know what you and fellow Palestinian sympathizers think about all the Arab regimes in the Middle East that use Palestinians as a way
101 Wingnut767 : Bingo. They just want to put all of the blame on Israel. And act like they had nothing to do with it. Also every time I bring up the Jewish refugees
102 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Should Israel Be Where It Is? Israel exists because they themselves declared independence, more or less due to the courtesy of the British. The Utter
103 Dougloid : Sharon went to the Wailing Wall for one simple reason and that is because he is a Jew and it is a place that is sacred to Judaism. That would be for
104 Post contains images Toast : The Palestinians left??? Due to British influence???? What are you you talking about? May I ask why the US is still a member of the UN then? If you d
105 Post contains images Skywatch : People don't want to believe that, but I believe that's going to be, and is, a reality for a the greater part of the future. ---Skywatch
106 Post contains images RJpieces : Oh we can dream can't we Excellent post...A very simple way to think about the entire Israel-Arab situation is to ask yourself this. If the Arabs lai
107 N710PS : There is soo much anti Isreal sentiment out there. Cry me a river, build me a bridge and get over it. Isreal will be and that is that. Palistine will
108 Post contains images Toast : A very simple way to think, indeed. Simple as in "comic strip". "The Jews", "the Arabs", "the good guys", "the bad guys". Don't you love how simple a
109 Coleplane : Wow... just wow. I could not possibly agree with you more. Israel's strikes have been in retaliation or in defense of their homeland. Israel doesn't
110 Post contains images N710PS :
111 HuskyAviation : The whole Palestinian-Israeli situation is a matter of whether Israel gives land in order to get peace, or the Palestinians give peace before getting
112 Yellowstone : I wouldn't call it outrage at Israel, more like overwhelming frustration that neither side can seem to think beyond strike and counterstrike, mindles
113 Allstarflyer : Sounds pretty good, eh? It bears repeating: Peace through strength is the only way Israel can continue to survive. You wouldn't be hurt to listen, ei
114 Post contains images TheCol : You assume incorrectly. The Jews place great importance on their heritage and biblical history. Thats only in the case of an occupation. If Israel de
115 AA777 : Your question is so juvenile and silly... Osama Bin Laden himself has answered that question for you. The nations that have been targeted are the one
116 Post contains links BA : This is precisely what the Israeli Arab political party, Balad, wants except that it supports the two-state solution rather than the one-state soluti
117 Post contains images AA777 : Oh BA. Thank you You have brightened my day with that Article. So true. Well then why on earth was it created? Possibly because its an organization t
118 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : you forget that this ONE man had many functions - business tycoon - party/movement leader - chairman of the PLO - President of the PA and so, yes, it
119 Post contains links Baroque : If not, there seem to be a couple of other options. Genocide or continued irregular resistance to an unaccepted occupation. Occupations have seldom g
120 NAV20 : Yes, we had some Italians too, good people. I have one piercing memory of late in the war, when my brother and I virtually witnessed the inaugural me
121 Baroque : So true, and reinforces the point that if you find Hamas difficult to work with and ensure its demise, you will like its inevitable successor even le
122 Post contains images Wingnut767 : According to the UN at the time it was less than 400,000 How many of the 4,000,000 refugees came from 48 ? Is Israel supposed to absorb all 4,000,000
123 NAV20 : Probably so, Baroque. Not to mention that most 'real' people would probably find a brainless, support-less, characterless political 'cipher' like Uml
124 SBBRTech : How many were actually kicked ? Most of them just sold their lands to the jews during the english mandate.[Edited 2007-09-18 15:26:52]
125 HuskyAviation : Try reading my whole post and not taking a single line out of context. Would "transfer" land work better for you? They shouldn't have to do anything
126 ME AVN FAN : No, most either were kicked out or fled in panic. A few had sold BEFORE WW-II . But the sellers were a tiny minority. -
127 NAV20 : If you mean 'guarantee that Israel can 'continue its present policies without further interruption,' HuskyAviation, I'd have to disagree. Israel is a
128 Post contains links Baroque : Why, SBBRT, WADR don't you read the links you have been given? If you Google for reasons why they left you get swamped by sites established by Israel
129 HuskyAviation : No, I don't mean that at all. Israel can be whatever it wants to be. They are within the community of nations, first of all, and for everyone that th
130 Boeing747_600 : You're correct for the most part. It was the Balfour Declaration of 1917 that resulted in mass immigration for the next 30 years to what was then cal
131 ME AVN FAN : - the previous, also democratically elected government and the democratically elected President (still in office) had recognized and accepted the Sta
132 Allstarflyer : Neither is society usually very tolerant towards arrogance such as yours.
133 NAV20 : But North Korea, Iran, Libya, Zimbabwe, Cuba shouldn't be, they should be attacked with sanctions (and maybe, soon, in the case of Iran, with nukes)
134 HuskyAviation : What you just said goes exactly to my point of the chicken and the egg. What came first? We could argue that for time immemorial. The question now is
135 NAV20 : I think that if you put those two quotes together, Husky, you've answered your own question. I don't like religious discrimination. Most people in th
136 HuskyAviation : I suppose you extend this comment to all non-secular Islamist countries and movements as well?
137 Post contains links and images David L : " target=_blank>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...t.stm This brings me to another issue I have some difficulty in understanding. The discussions
138 TheCol : I think both sides are starting to realize that now.
139 Post contains images David L : Oops, that was a bit ambiguous. I was referring to people I actually know, not to anyone here.
140 AA777 : I respect and believe in your idea that the two peoples need to learn to live with each other side by side. However, I believe that its easy for you
141 Post contains links CALTECH : Here here, good post about Jordan. Not thousands, earliest probably about 600 A.D. for Muslim Arabs. Palestine seems to have changed hands many, many
142 NAV20 : Yes, of course. I don't believe in mixing religion and politics, especially when it involves giving religious groups any role in government. Not just
143 CALTECH : We should find the descendants of the Phonecians, and give all of Israel back to them then? Or the Amorites and Canaanites? Hittites, and later Phili
144 ME AVN FAN : - The descendants of the Phoenicians nowadays simply are Lebanese or Tunisians. The descendants of the Cannanites and Samaritans and Philinstines now
145 Baroque : Well you learn every day. Citing sources and suggesting that fuller quotations might be helpful to understanding constitutes arrogance. I seem to be
146 Post contains images NAV20 : Surely that would be Egypt, not Palestine? Isn't Egypt where the Children of Israel started out from? Must admit, I find it very difficult to take al
147 Post contains images Toast : Just to add some fuel to the debate : If I remember my Bible correctly, Mount Ararat was where Noah landed after the deluge, giving once again birth
148 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - No reason to feel bothered ! It is just joining the "guard of the gits ! - - Abraham and consorts lived in what now is Northern Iraq ! - a slice of
149 AA777 : How many of the aforementioned groups still have keys to their homes, and documents proving their ownership thereof? We are talking modern times. Les
150 Post contains links Baroque : Not at all bothered by that. On the Ararat part, it is worth mentioning that Prof Ian Plimer took the Creationists to court in Aus over their descrip
151 CALTECH : You made the statement of thousands of years. So now there is a difference? Great argument. Haven't there always been Jews living there also?
152 TheCol : Both sides need to work together, and mend pressing issues in their respective societies in order to achieve a peaceful and fair resolution. The inte
153 ME AVN FAN : Jews lived in most Arab countries as small but appreciated and successful minorities. Problems yes, but rather minor in comparison to Europe. And for
154 Post contains links CALTECH : You have to do better. Someone has blinders on. Iraqi Jews http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ource/anti-semitism/iraqijews.html Egyptian Jews ht
155 Post contains links Wingnut767 : Can you tell me the number of the estimated 400,000 refugees (By the UN figures) That the Israelis actually forced out. Also how many of them are act
156 Post contains images Baroque : Noted and appreciated. One advantage of Wiki on topics like this is that its method of construction allows both sides in a dispute to provide some em
157 CALTECH : Some do not want to believe the other side ever, the very intolerant ones, probably the ones that cause all the trouble.
158 RJpieces : I'd still like AA777 respond to Wingnut767's question about Jewish refugees from Arab countries...Of course, when it's Jewish refugees, it doesn't mat
159 ME AVN FAN : under your quote, we can read : -- 5,000 Jews remain, compared to 300,000 in 1950. I lived in Morocco from 1988-1992, built a home there and have had
160 AA777 : It would also be one thing if thousands of them didnt come there illegally...as they did during the british mandate. It would ALSO be another thing i
161 Cedars747 : Hola Konstantin ! The profecy of Armageddon want Israel to be where it is now. Saludos ! Alex!!!
162 CALTECH : From a book? A piece of paper? Okay for some to use a book but not others huh?
163 AA777 : Oh Lord. To even compare the two 'pieces of paper' is so ridiculous, and you know it. One says that god gave them the land...in a broad historical se
164 CALTECH : You made the statement that a book, pieces of paper, should not allow people to come and takes someones' house. Then you say that the other side has
165 Wingnut767 : You continue to avoid the truth. Your dislike or hatred for the Jews continues. You are a one sided story. This is why the problem will never be sett
166 AA777 : A religious book that has no real pertinence in a modern world of law does not 'prove' anything, nor does it give them true authorization to take the
167 Baroque : What does the mitochondrial DNA tell us?
168 Wingnut767 : Very good question. The odds are that it would not match many that are there today.
169 Wingnut767 : So I guess we do not have to believe the Quran and we can get rid of the Dome on the rock. How fortunate was that to happen to have your holy site on
170 Post contains images David L : I think "concentration camp" means something entirely different to many people these days. What you describe sounds more like prison - a bit less dra
171 AA777 : When did I say anything about using the Dome of the Rock as a way to claim the land? That would be a religious claim, not a legal one. I repeat, agai
172 Wingnut767 : Just like the jewish refugees from the same time. Do we send all of them back home Muslim and Jewish or does everyone just move on. It is time to mov
173 AA777 : Where did I say that we have to 'send them back'? I've never said that. In fact, feel free to search any and all threads on this subject that I've po
174 Alessandro : Yes, I think so. Those who call themselves Palestinians where the ones who didn´t recognize Israel, imagine having people living in your country that
175 CALTECH : That is about as twisted as saying some piece of paper from the U.K., which did not own the land so how could they give out ownership, is the end all
176 Dougloid : The writings of Flavius Josephus are quite clear on who built and owned the real estate, 600 years before the birth of Mohammed. They're historical r
177 BA : No they weren't. Palestine was inhabited long before Judaism began. The first civilization to form was the Canaanite civilization who called the land
178 Post contains images NAV20 : They always do start off as prisons, DavidL. The term concentration camp was first coined to describe the camps set up in South Africa by the British
179 AA777 : How many of these groups do you know that have endured 60 years of occupation? -AA777
180 CALTECH : Germans in Poland(Silesia, Pomerania, City of Poznan/Posen), Prussians in Poland(Prussia,city of Gdansk/Danzig), Poles in Russia(Eastern Provinces ta
181 Baroque : As Arthur Caldwell (in) famously said two wrongs do not make a right, except he slightly changed the words, in deference to an infamous policy then i
182 David L : Which is why I said what I did. I suspect nowadays you'll find that the term "concentration camp" means something much more specific to most people,
183 Wingnut767 : It is called Jordan
184 ME AVN FAN : No, TransJordan is NOT the nation of the Palestinians. The nation of the Palestinians is three parts, the WestBank, EastJerusalem and the Gaza Territ
185 NAV20 : I see you live in Florida. How would you like it if I took your home without compensation, and said that you'd be all right because you could go and
186 Post contains images AA777 : The weakest argument and biggest falsehood ever. Jordan is not for the Palestinians. Never was, and never will be. -AA777
187 Post contains links and images Allstarflyer : I appreciate your restraint, although, I wish you (and Wingnut) would go beyond Wikipedia. I love to look at the site, but I still have issues with i
188 Post contains links Dougloid : With all due respect population demographics of the region are not nearly as transparent as you would have us believe. http://www.israelipalestinianp
189 CALTECH : How some ignore the claims of a Jewish homeland, it should be right where it is. Digusting how some can sit safely in Australia and dismiss millions
190 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - I heard exactly this from Palestinians directly repeatedly. In my view a kind of wishful thinking, as they are not particularily enthusiastic about
191 BA : And the ancient Israelites are a people no longer known today. The Canaanites didn't disappear off the face of the earth despite what you might think
192 NAV20 : Good post, BA. I can add a few more quotes showing that many people recognised the folly of setting up a 'Jewish national home' in the Middle East fro
193 Post contains images David L : These are not loaded questions - I just want to get a better understanding: Was that 8% of the British Mandate of Palestine or 8% of the area west of
194 ME AVN FAN : I have just seen in a newspaper that the Israeli Vice Prime-Minister suggested that Israel hands most of the Arab quarters in Jerusalem over to the Pa
195 A380US : but even looking at histroy books and israel was taken fromt eh jews uring the crusades and what about the wall can you ignore that its clearly for j
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