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Hillary's New Health Care Program.  
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Posted (7 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2241 times:
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With a price tag of about $110 billion per year, Clinton's "American Health Choices Plan" represents her first major effort to achieve universal health coverage since 1994, when the plan she authored during her husband's first term collapsed.

She's got a great shot of winning the presidency, but what is this going to spell for her campaign?

 stirthepot 

article



135 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
but what is this going to spell for her campaign?

Hopefully the death of her campaign.

National Healthcare doesn't work, doesn't provide the level of care private practice does, and will snub research efforts to find cures.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2219 times:

The Iraqi War is costing us $2 billion per week.

This program would eliminate and/or substitute for other existing programs like Medicaid for young people and Medicare for retirees. The funds currently spent on these programs would be shifted to the new plan.

In most states, the Medicare and Medicaid programs are managed by private insurance companies. These companies bid for the opportunity to provide insurance services. These same companies (or others) will simply manage the new program.

The Hillary health plan, despite some current misconceptions, will not be a free-for-all. People in the program will not be able to walk into a dental office and get a full set of implants at the drop of the hat. They won't be able to waltz into the surgical center and receive liposuction or gastric bypass. They will have to prove need. The doctors will have to prove need.

People who want to keep their private insurance will be able to keep it. The Hillary plan simply assures those without insurance coverage will have some.

Hillary's program is a means to provide basic preventative care, basic acute care (sore throats, etc.), and emergency care to those without insurance.

Hillary's program will mirror Tommy Thompson's Wisconsin BadgerCare program in some ways. . http://dhfs.wisconsin.gov/badgercare/index.htm


As a nurse, I've dealt with traditional "Medical Assistance" programs when they were just a blank check for poor people to get whatever care they wanted at the taxpayers' expense. It pissed me off. Thompson's BadgerCare was revolutionary and many states have adopted similar programs. It cut Wisconsin's public health cost burden significantly and has been so successful that it's still in place a decade after its implementation. I see no reason why Hillary's plan won't be similar it.

[Edited 2007-09-17 09:11:04]

User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 3):

Interesting information, Mark.

Question for you:

How much of a burden and financial drain do you find the current paperwork required for medical care take?


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2203 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 4):
How much of a burden and financial drain do you find the current paperwork required for medical care take?

It's gotten much, much easier over the past ten years. Check-in for clinic or ER takes about three minutes. Insurance, Medicare, and Medicaid (BadgerCare) reports and billing is done electronically. In fact, the Federal and state governments require their claims be submitted electronically by all providers (hospitals, ambulance, clinics, etc.) within 30 days of date of service.

Medical charting by docs, nurses, and medics is done electronically and kept in-house and separate from financial data (in compliance with Federal HIPAA law). Patient information may be released only after a patient gives express permission to do so.

[Edited 2007-09-17 09:34:18]

User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Why do you think healthcare costs have ballooned in the last several years?

User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2197 times:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 3):
People who want to keep their private insurance will be able to keep it.

Will they be able to choose not to have their taxes contribute (or not pay taxes to) the fund that will provide for this healthcare? Will proving need take longer than the current system?


Would companies drop their healthcare because people can get it from the government? Would private insurance prices increase and would these companies go out of business?

The first two questions are serious, the second two are my curiosity.


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2195 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 6):
Why do you think healthcare costs have ballooned in the last several years?

To be honest, three things:

1. Those with insurance are paying for those without insurance to get their health care needs met by visiting expensive ER's.

2. Every time a BandAid changes hands between manufacturer and patient, someone wants to make a disproportionately inflated amount of profit on it. There's the manufacturer, two or three distributors, the hospital supply folks, and the emergency department. If every "handler" simply broke even or made a fair profit, things wouldn't be as expensive.

3. Increasing medical liability insurance rates. The docs and other professionals keep seeing their malpractice and other liability insurance rates go up every year. A doctor friend told me a few months ago that his rates have gone up by 120% in five years. Another doc had to stop delivering babies because her OB rider tripled in one year.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2188 times:

But then the Hillary plan only directly affects #1. But as example, car insurance rates in California dropped after everyone was essentially required to have it.

#2 could be caused by many different things, and has as many solutions. What I was getting at with my prior questions was whether there may be a disproportionate amount of admin staff required to deal with reams of paperwork, which obviously adds costs to the delivery of healthcare.

In our business, construction, there is an incredible amount of paperwork required, which does not necessarily improve upon the quality of our product, but certainly adds costs. This I could say could easily top 40%. I was wondering if the same occurs in healthcare.

#3 - 'Kill all the lawyers'


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 7):
Will they be able to choose not to have their taxes contribute (or not pay taxes to) the fund that will provide for this healthcare?

In most cases, yes. I anticipate that companies with 10 or more employees will be able to choose between private insurance and Clinton's plan.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 7):
Will proving need take longer than the current system?

Applying for Hillary's plan would probably be done online, like Wisconsin's BadgerCare program. It's a lot like using TurboTax. Once you have all your numbers in order, punching the buttons is easy. And you'd hear back with a few hours or couple of days (under normal circumstances).

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 7):
Would companies drop their healthcare because people can get it from the government?

Small companies might choose to do that. I don't know about you, but in order to keep their insurance premiums down, my last employer kept increassing deductables and copays and lowering the number of covered services for the last five years of my employment. More and more small companies are already discontinuing their employee insurance plans now due to increasing costs of premiums. A lot of the latest uninsured folks are uninsured for that reason. In that case, small companies might actually benefit from Hillary's plan.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 7):
Would private insurance prices increase and would these companies go out of business?

The private insurance companies will more than likely be managing Hillary's plan on a state-by-state type basis. It'll increase competition between the insurance companies and theoretically lower costs. Health insurance companies are very wealthy, so I wouldn't worry about them going under. Their stockholders' dividend checks just might not be as large as they used to be.


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2177 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
But as example, car insurance rates in California dropped after everyone was essentially required to have it.

That's a perfect example! I never thought of that! The same will happen to health insurance, except on a national level. You can see why the insurance companies are going to balk at this plan. It reduces profits and, therefore, dividends to their shareholders.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
In our business, construction, there is an incredible amount of paperwork required, which does not necessarily improve upon the quality of our product, but certainly adds costs. This I could say could easily top 40%. I was wondering if the same occurs in healthcare.

It seems to be the opposite in health care. There's still a lot of paperwork, especially for clinic doctors, but it's nowhere what it was ten years ago. In 1996, I used to spend two hours of a 12 hour shift charting and it was all paper and pen work. In 2006, it was down to 30 minutes thanks to computers, charting software, and online submission. About 5 minutes of that was spent doing pen and paper charting.

[Edited 2007-09-17 10:13:06]

User currently offlineFxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2127 times:
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Some good points made in the CNN article that weren't covered in the Yahoo link.

article


User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2086 times:

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
She's got a great shot of winning the presidency, but what is this going to spell for her campaign?

Honestly, I don't think it's going to affect her chances at all. If you look at the other democratic candidates, they all offer some variation of the (much needed, IMO) national health care system. If she looses the primaries, it won't be because of this.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
National Healthcare doesn't work, doesn't provide the level of care private practice does, and will snub research efforts to find cures.

Would you care to elaborate on this statement? Most western countries that offer national health care rank higher than the US in most health measures of their population. Moreover, having been involved in the research arena while in college, I can personally state that research is still going strong in those countries. Besides, if national health care does not work, would you care to offer an alternative that does? It is embarrassing that we live in the world's "greatest economic power" yet 40% of us don't have any health coverage at all. Obviously the current situation is not working; at least these candidates are proposing to do something about it.

Cheers!

Charles


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2075 times:

Here's a summary of her plan from her website:

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/summary.aspx


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2063 times:

There it is right on her website.

"Promote a shared responsibility" is nothing more than a euphemism for "from each according to his ability; to each according to need" This is exactly what Karl Marx advocated. See,

Marx's full statement reads:

Quote:

In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2050 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
"Promote a shared responsibility" is nothing more than a euphemism for "from each according to his ability; to each according to need" This is exactly what Karl Marx advocated

Oh, get off it. Comparing the Shared Responsibility section to Marxism is far from the truth. What are you saying?

You favor limiting health care coverage to people based on past medical problems?

You favor people not having ANY health insurance coverage?

You favor price gouging by drug companies?

You favor market-driven drug research programs based on what people WANT versus what people NEED? Read: Developing new impotence drugs versus new orphan drugs?

Remember Bush's answer to the crisis of the uninsured when he first took office? He "encouraged" private insurance companies to address the problem. Well, they haven't done very well, have they? Bottom line: Private insurance companies aren't going to help solve the problem unless they're forced to do so. I think Clinton's come up with a pretty damned good way to keep the involved. Don't you?


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9371 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2039 times:

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
She's got a great shot of winning the presidency, but what is this going to spell for her campaign?

mandatory auto insurance has never hurt a politicians' career.

then again, not everybody has ever followed the rule, too, per se.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineEaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
National Health care doesn't work, doesn't provide the level of care private practice does, and will snub research efforts to find cures.

The simple fact is that not everyone in the United States has health coverage and that is unacceptable. Would you find it acceptable if not everyone was protected by the police, firefighters, military and other government functions. How is health care any different than for example law enforcement. Would you find it acceptable if you had to buy police protection. If firefighters would only come to your house if you had that type of insurance. These are things that everyone needs and we should consider it a human right like the police, firefighters, military and so forth.

There is no way to guarantee that everyone will have health coverage unless the government has a say in it. Something has to be done to make this the case. Clinton has the balls to do what needs to be done.

[Edited 2007-09-17 23:34:29]

User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9371 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2034 times:

--from notes, facts, and the Iowa Democratic Party

HOW TOP DEMOCRATS' PLANS COMPARE
Most Democrats want to shore up the existing system, which is a mix of public and private insurance.

One notable exception is presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich, who is calling for a more drastic change — he’d like the federal government to be the insurance provider for all. Under this concept, called a single-payer system, the government would issue all Americans an insurance card and directly insure everyone for medical, dental, mental health, long-term care and prescription drugs.

Here are summaries of the plans of the Democratic candidates who are the top four in the polls:

HILLARY CLINTON:
Unveiled: Today

The thrust: All Americans would be required to have health insurance.

Details: Americans could choose from private plans or a government plan. Those who like their current insurance plan would be able to keep it. Those who are uninsured or who don’t like their work-based coverage could choose between two public programs: a pumped-up Medicare program or the health care plan available to federal employees. They could receive tax breaks to help pay for it.

The plan would require large employers to cover their employees or else pay into a public pool. It would offer a tax subsidy to small businesses to help cover their workers’ insurance. It would expand the State Children’s Health Insurance Program.

Cost: $110 billion a year

How to pay for it: She would end some of the Bush tax cuts for people earning more than $250,000 a year.

JOHN EDWARDS:

Unveiled: February, the first of any candidate

The thrust: Everyone in the country, adults and children, would be required to have health insurance by 2012.

Details: Americans could choose from private plans or a government plan similar to Medicare. Currently, only people 65 or older or those with certain disabilities are eligible for Medicare. The plan would provide tax credits to help lower-income Americans pay their premiums.

It would expand Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. The plan creates regional “health care markets” through which individuals could choose from a range of approved health care plans. Small businesses could purchase insurance through the regional pools and pay prices like larger employers.

Employers would be required to cover their employees or help finance the cost of insurance for employees. It would cap profits and administration costs for insurance providers at 15 percent — thus requiring they spend at least 85 percent on patient care. It would allow for importation of prescription drugs from Canada.

Cost: $90 to $120 billion a year

How to pay for it: Raise taxes on Americans earning more than $200,000 by completely repealing the Bush income-tax cuts enacted in 2001 for the top two income brackets.

BARACK OBAMA:
Unveiled: May

The thrust: All children would be required to be insured; adults wouldn’t.

Details: The plan would establish a new public program for those who don’t have insurance through an employer, and who don’t qualify for existing government programs. It would cover medical and mental health care. It would also be available to small businesses — probably with 15 employees or fewer.

It would offer every American the choice of buying the same health care plan available to federal employees, and if they still can’t afford that, it would provide subsidies. The government would pick up the tab for some of the most expensive illnesses. There would be incentives for healthy habits. The plan would expand Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program.

It would require employers to offer insurance or contribute toward the costs of the public plan, called a National Health Insurance Exchange. The typical family that already has coverage would see a reduction of up to $2,500 in premiums a year.

Cost: $50 billion to $65 billion in new revenue a year

How to pay for it: Cut costs in the health care system and increase taxes. He proposes not renewing tax breaks enacted in 2001 for families with higher incomes, mostly over $250,000. The tax cuts expire in 2010.

BILL RICHARDSON:
Unveiled: August

The thrust: Ultimately all Americans would be required to obtain coverage.

The details: Any American could purchase the same health care plan provided to members of Congress and the president. The age for Medicare eligibility would be lowered to 55. The plan would also expand Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program to cover more people.

Family health insurance coverage would be extended up to age 25. Insurers would be required to spend at least 85 percent of revenue on direct health care rather than administration. Employer contributions would be required. A sliding-scale tax credit would help people afford coverage. Interest rates would be capped on medical debts on credit cards. There would be tax breaks for people and for businesses paying for their own coverage.

Cost: $110 billion a year

How to pay for it: He says it could be done without raising taxes. Improved information technology, negotiated drug prices and streamlined expenses would save enough money to pay for universal coverage.


****

By the number ... about 47 million Americans have no health insurance, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

Bill Richardson's plan looks the best, IMO.

Am I correct in stating that none of this healthcare is totally free, but subsidized by the government and offered at a low cost to the people?


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 10):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
But as example, car insurance rates in California dropped after everyone was essentially required to have it.

That's a perfect example! I never thought of that! The same will happen to health insurance, except on a national level. You can see why the insurance companies are going to balk at this plan. It reduces profits and, therefore, dividends to their shareholders.

I see plenty of car insurance companies advertising all the time. But, we must also remember that these changes took a long time to implement.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 10):
It seems to be the opposite in health care. There's still a lot of paperwork, especially for clinic doctors, but it's nowhere what it was ten years ago.

What about the paperwork and staff required to process insurance claims?


User currently offlineWingnut767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2006 times:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 7):
. Those with insurance are paying for those without insurance to get their health care needs met by visiting expensive ER's.

Like all of the illegal aliens. Will they be required to get healthcare?

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 7):
3. Increasing medical liability insurance rates. The docs and other professionals keep seeing their malpractice and other liability insurance rates go up every year.

Who is going to stop the lawyers. All of our politicians are one. So we will never see reform there.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 18):
By the number ... about 47 million Americans have no health insurance, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

That number is including Illegals and people who voluntarily do not get it. Mainly young peole.


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2004 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):
What about the paperwork and staff required to process insurance claims?

There are still some paper forms that docs still need to sign and mail, but most claims are done online. Most insurance companies have secure sites that claim processors can log into to enter required info. Ten years ago, it was all paper, envelopes, and the US Postal Service.

The people who used to shuffle all the paperwork are now computer jockeys.

The entire health care industry realized they were getting buried in paper. Everyone "sort of" made a concerted effort to switch to a paperless system around the smile time. And it seems to have worked.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1995 times:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 22):
The people who used to shuffle all the paperwork are now computer jockeys.

So in a way the 'paperwork' still exists?

I mean, I would loooooooooove to hear just one person say one day:

'But if you do that, we'll have to cut several bureaucrats!'


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1988 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 23):
So in a way the 'paperwork' still exists?

There's always going to be SOME paperwork. What I'm saying is the 10-inch stack of 1994 paperwork is now a 2-inch stack. The other 8-inches is inside computers.


25 AndesSMF : But some decrease in the amount of paperwork required should help to reduce some costs.
26 JetJock22 : First of all, does anyone really think it is gonna cost $110 billion dollars? It, like everything else the government will cost at least 5 times what
27 AsstChiefMark : Have to been immunized against polio, tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis, measles, mumps, rubella, and hepatitis B? The government tells us we have to ha
28 MaidensGator : See a connection here?? The malpractice situation also leads to "defensive medicine" where the physician orders more diagnostics than are really nece
29 FriendlySkies : Seems to work pretty well in Europe...I took an ethics class this summer, and while we didn't go into medicine too much, my professor showed us an in
30 Flanker : Just wait and see how wrong and sorry all americans are going to be if this comes true. Subsequently myself as well. People all over the world come t
31 PPVRA : Plenty of people in the USA who complain about the system and how it is rigged up with regulations that distort prices, health care, lawyer bills, et
32 Pope : I'm not saying anything. I'm just citing what HRC herself wrote. I read the entire 10 page plan off her website. She goes on to write that she wants
33 AsstChiefMark : Have you bothered to read the link I posted earlier? It's not socialized medicine. The private insurance companies will still issue the insurance. Th
34 Post contains images L-188 : Exactly.....it is currently an expensive system because it is a complex system. A lot of doctors have gotten out of the insurance buisness entirely a
35 Flanker : I never said it was shit. What i am saying is that they are nowhere near where they can be. I don't understand how you cant see that.
36 AsstChiefMark : I haven't examined that part of the plan in much detail, so I can't answer that with confidence, yet. First, I guarantee you, the insurance companies
37 AsstChiefMark : I know what you're getting at, but you're wrong. The thing that drives drug and disease research in the USA is the almighty dollar. In other countrie
38 Flanker : If you think government cares about YOUR health you're more delusional than i thought. And on second thought, whats wrong with monetary gain from res
39 AsstChiefMark : A 27 year career in health care hasn't made me delusional. It's allowed me to see things as they are and to see what's wrong. If government doesn't c
40 Flanker : Right, well in that case go vote for that idiot and see where it takes you. It's unfortunate that you take this wonderful country and what it offers
41 AsstChiefMark : Give it up. I used to be a Reagan Republican. Somewhere along the line I realized the free enterprise system cared more about money than people. Now
42 AsstChiefMark : Well, since I'm a nurse, it'll probably get me back into the profession as a case manager for the local division of the new national insurance progra
43 Flanker : Great me too. Except the fact that you have never experienced government controlled health care first hand. Most you have ever come across is probabl
44 AsstChiefMark : Transportation? Oh. you mean ambulance? That was a volunteer/part-time job. My "real job" has been emergency room nurse, school nurse, nursing home n
45 Flanker : It mandates huh? Once again, government has no business controlling or telling any PRIVATE entity what to do. Thank you socialism. What part of this
46 AsstChiefMark : The US Code and state statutes and administrative rules have been telling people and entities what to do for over 200 years. I understand what social
47 Post contains images FXramper : Please limit responses in this thread to Hillary's campaign and the topic at hand: her health care platform. I'm not interested in reading a back in
48 Post contains images Flanker : Seems like we are the only members on. Haha. I'm going to bed as well.
49 CupraIbiza : You make no sense. What are you advocating., The destruction of all government? If you say they shouldn't control or tell any private entity to do, t
50 JGPH1A : Um, yes it does. I've experienced it, everyone around me has experienced it, and it works. It works very well, thanks.
51 CupraIbiza : Spot on, 100% correct. Flanker I dont know anything about the system you speak of that does not work. All I can speak of with knowledge is the system
52 EA CO AS : Yeah, and how are those taxes over in Europe? Hmm? Care to guess why they pay the equivalent of $5.00USD or more per gallon for gasoline? Or what the
53 AsstChiefMark : Who's going to pay for it if we don't?
54 EA CO AS : Well that's the rub, now isn't it? You (and other like-minded individuals) are quite happy to provide it as long as I and everyone else pay for it -
55 LTBEWR : At least the Democratic candidates are proposing health care programs and debating this important issue. One shouldn't have to be poor or old or disab
56 STLGph : Simple answer, really. She could. But by the time it gets through committees and processes, good luck. If she were a sitting President, she'd have a
57 Pope : Then why don't you first educate yourself about the proposal in its entirety before attacking someone who has. What makes you believe that there isn'
58 Post contains images MaidensGator : We have that now... I agree that some of the drug marketing campaigns are over the top... But so far as limiting the incomes of the executives, you g
59 Post contains links Wingnut767 : Then why do many canadians come to the US for serious operation's ? Why do many leaders of other countries come to the US for healtcare? Correct agai
60 Pope : That's a bit of an exaggeration. I have two friends who are attending neurosurgeons at Shands and both earn about $500,000 and certainly work full ti
61 Flanker : Not to mention she wants to pay for something as uvervarsal healthcare with only 110$BN !!! Its fucking bullshit! we have 40 or so governement program
62 DeltaDC9 : EXACTLY! Hospitals are spending huge sums to increase WER facilties and staffs because of the abuse. There are other factors that those countries do
63 STLGph : ah, yes. it's completely an excuse. see, i was thinking it was the way the Congressional process works. except, of course, when it comes to undeclare
64 Post contains images Flanker : And we dont know how many of those actively choose to engane in insurance or how many are illigal imigrants.
65 Pope : Let me illustrate this point with a real life example. I have an employee who earns over $45,000/yr. She is married and has two young children. We pr
66 Arrow : Ditto for me. I've had enough health issues in the last 5 years that I'm eternally grateful I don't live in the U.S. And the delivery has been fast a
67 DeltaDC9 : Congress funding a war is a declaration of war in and of itself. People have a gross misinterpretationn of what exactly constitutes a declaration of
68 Pope : Remind me again, how many patients does Canada's health system send to US hospitals for surgery because there isn't enough space in Canadian hospital
69 MaidensGator : Not much of one... I know quite a few surgeons of different specialties who earn more than a million a year... Of course a neurosurgeon's med-mal cov
70 Wingnut767 : They are not entitled. health care is not a right. if they want to buy go ahead but not with my tax dollars. Shands is a great place. My mother in la
71 Pope : I've spoken to her as the company's President, our CFO spoke to her about it, her direct supervisor spoke to her and the division VP did as well. At
72 Arrow : I don't have a number -- but no one is denying that's an issue and it needs to be fixed. But the public system pays for those U.S. surgeries. The iss
73 Post contains images CastleIsland : Frankly, ethical responsibility commensurate with a voluntarily-chosen career. Having worked in the pharmaceutical field from 1986-1993, I've seen th
74 LH423 : I always like how people immediately assume that if nationalized health care comes to the US, suddenly all these standards that we have are going to
75 Boeing747_600 : Tell that to hundreds of millions of Europeans who dont have to declare bankruptcy when faced with medical bills.
76 DeltaDC9 : I have a real problem with that statement. Hospitlas are not going to go after you if you simply arrange to make payments that fit your budget, and m
77 Boeing747_600 : You're citing the best case scenario, which is clearly not the norm and applies mostly to ER situations. Fact of the matter is that the number one ca
78 Post contains images Smcmac32msn : Oh right, thats why Canadians are healthier than us? We're fat and disgusting in the US. As soon as President GasMan is out of office, that number wi
79 Smcmac32msn : I'm giving you a very liberal estimate here...... but those people that come here, go to about 1% of the doctors in this country. I'd barely say that
80 Post contains images EA CO AS : I never said it was more cost effective as a percentage of GDP. All I said was that I'm happy with what I have and don't want anyone increasing my ta
81 DeltaDC9 : No doubt, which is why socialised medicne is more practical, the user base is healthier. Not really. Most hospitals do this, writing of millions agai
82 Post contains links AsstChiefMark : You poor thing! Check in and waiting time aren't the same. You were triaged to low priority. The folks with heart attacks, smashed heads, and vomitin
83 Post contains images DeltaDC9 :
84 AirTranTUS : If we had a national ID system, people who paid taxes would have an ID and this ID would show if they are entitled to the subsidized healthcare. Ille
85 Post contains links Arrow : A recent study comparing the two countries on costs and outcomes shows the U.S. system loses on both counts. Some excerpts: The United States also sp
86 Post contains images Flanker : Thats becasue we choose to be. Just herd on the radio that the AP is reporting that her plan dictates that you must provide proof of healthcare when
87 Post contains images EA CO AS : I was simply pointing out that YOU were the one bringing 'cost effectiveness as a percentage of GDP' into the argument. Frankly, that's irrelevant to
88 Post contains links Boeing747_600 : Lets say I concede every point you just made. I'd still like to know why inability to pay medical bills is the leading cause that people declare bank
89 Post contains links Boeing747_600 : Lets say I concede every point you just made. I'd still like to know why inability to pay medical bills is the leading cause for people declaring ban
90 MaidensGator : Hospitals can and will sue for unpaid bills. They do it regularly. If you make a deal with them for payments, they'll hold off. However, the deal tha
91 Arrow : In other words, ideology will trump practicality every time. What's that old saying? A fool and his money are soon parted? If you want to pay through
92 EA CO AS : Not at all - in fact, I'm being very pragmatic about this. Fact of the matter is that for every study you show me that says nationalized healthcare w
93 MaidensGator : I don't know where that "fool and his money" remark comes from. This thread is starting to remind of an A vs B over in Civ Av. I have good health ins
94 Tom in NO : Funded by you and me.....taxpayers into the federal coffers. Basically welfare inspired health insurance...nothing more. One more reason I ain't voti
95 Boeing747_600 : There'd be none of this miasma of legalese and paperwork in a single-payer system.
96 Arrow : No one ever suggested it was free. But you are comparing apples and oranges; for example the 15% you talk about is the combined federal/provincial sa
97 AsstChiefMark : For the past seven years, Bush has been "encouraging" private insurance companies to come up with a solution to the epidemic of the uninsured. Has en
98 STLGph : of course we'd want that spin now wouldn't we? that way when someone goes against the funding, they "don't support the soldiers and are unpatriotic."
99 Post contains links Wingnut767 : No most people want something for nothing and have the "Rich" pay for it. Exactly. Another entitlement and redistrubution of wealth. Nothing should b
100 Flanker : Again you are missing the point. Shes mandating you have insurance before you can apply for a job. What kind of bullshit is that? Do you not see how
101 RJdxer : As many times as I've broken different toes and my nose, when I read his comment I wondered why he went to the ER or to a clinic. The government has
102 AsstChiefMark : That's the way Medicare works. In order to care for Medicare patients, providers must agree to accept what Medicare deems a fair and justifiable paym
103 RJdxer : But if I know my services were only worth 1.5 and I know from past history that if I charge 7 they will give me 3, why not play the game? If I charge
104 AsstChiefMark : FYI. Medicare screwed big when it first started. Rather than have government folks controlling the coffers, they allowed doctors and hospitals to do s
105 Post contains images MaidensGator : Except actually, if your father had no insurance, there'd be no discount and he would owe the entire 7K... Medicare pays according to the DRG; the sa
106 RJdxer : Maybe yes maybe no. Yes in that he would owe the whole amount, no in that if the government hadn't gotten involved the bill would probably not be any
107 AsstChiefMark : And that's why the vast majority of doctors and hospitals accept Medicare assignment.
108 Smcmac32msn : Lets see... how is the war in Iraq helping the American people? ITS NOT! So why don't we get rid of that $104 BILLION for nothing of good to the Amer
109 Post contains images EA CO AS : Perhaps you didn't get the memo, but we're talking about the pros and cons of nationalized healthcare in this thread. Perfect! Then we agree - taxes
110 767Lover : I see no problem with the government providing a plan or plans/subsidies for citizens to choose to use if they cannot afford a private plan. What terr
111 Pintail : I have been reading this thread, and wonder what you could make of my situation. In addition, I have Muscular Dystrophy, so my situation is IMO much m
112 Wingnut767 : My thoughts exactly. I understand helping out people who fall through the cracks. but this is just another socialist money grabbing boondoggle Nice c
113 B752fanatic : This is hubris. Hillary will win the nomination, however, if she keeps this up, I am quite sure that the Republicans will rally more support when they
114 Arrow : I don't mean to one-up you here, but I have a heart arrythmia that requires a pacemaker, and I'm battling leukemia (CLL). My heart condition hasn't c
115 Ctbarnes : Hillary has come up with some interesting ideas, but it is not a panacea. No national healthcare system is. I worked for the NHS in Britain back in th
116 B752fanatic : Indeed, I can't agree more, however Ms. Clinton back in the 90's tried and failed, she still hasn't said why this time it will work when back in the
117 Ctbarnes : My sense is she has learned from her mistakes back in the 90's. This is a very different proposal that does not appear to have taken place in a vacuu
118 Post contains links MDorBust : What Hillary really wants... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_ap_interview_6 Anyone not scared by that?
119 AsstChiefMark : Me. It's no different than having to prove you've received all your immunizations before being hired for certain jobs. It's no different than me pres
120 MDorBust : I disagree. A truck drivers license and nursing license are proof of basic proficiency in the field you are applying for. Immunizations prove that yo
121 DeltaDC9 : What is the deal with the luxury tax for people who make more than 250,000 who choose other plans? Not cool, it could be up to 60K!
122 RJdxer : Then what would she say if you said they had to present a valid form that showed them to be U.S. citizens or have a valid work visa that would be ver
123 AsstChiefMark : I don't know what she's say, but I like the idea.
124 StuckInCA : So, when you get maimed and show up in an ER can they just start digging a hole for you if you don't have enough cash in your bank account? If you're
125 Post contains links Aa757first : This is a huge problem. Finding an OB/GYN who still does the OB part is getting harder and harder to find. Hospitals are shutting down maternity unit
126 767Lover : That makes no sense to me. It is not the same as vaccinations. Vaccinations help prevent an outbreak of illness among the group. A professional licen
127 MaidensGator : Easy to say if you're healthy; any idea how many people in this country have some pre-existing condition? What problem? Canada's system does not pay
128 Post contains links Aa757first : How is an insurance company supposed to ever even see a break even point when they're covering someone getting thousands of dollars in prescription d
129 Flanker : Another scheme in this whole plan to take your money and control your life. Wait until it moves down to the lower classes. Thats where the real money
130 EA CO AS : I understand, however the uninsured people visiting ERs across the country don't go hog-wild getting every treatment, test and elective procedure und
131 Post contains links PPVRA : I found an article that spells out one of the things I have heard numerous times, here it is: quote Because the private health-insurance market doesn
132 Flanker : Of course she doesn't understand it. She did not come up with it. I still find it funny that they claim its a constitutional right. LOL
133 AsstChiefMark : Not every hospital needs an angioplasty center, especially if there's one nearby. There's a window of time to get an emergency angioplasty done. Ther
134 StuckInCA : I don't disagree with you, but as a skeptic I am... well... not convinced. I will admit to not having studied details on Clinton's proposal, but why
135 EA CO AS : First and foremost, I'm very sorry to hear what happened to you! I'm hopeful things are better for you now. I'm a skeptic myself - hence my reservati
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