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Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond  
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3939 times:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7006412.stm

Absolutely pathetic, and very telling that police chiefs support these two cowardly morons. This is yet another example of over-paid, under-worked police not doing their job and patting themselves on the back as a result.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3900 times:
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This is a tragic accident... but:

Quote:
He said the PCSOs might not have been able to swim, and in that case they should not have risked their lives.

... which I hope is the key in this case. If the PCSOs couldn't swim, there's no point in jumping in a >2m deep pond to try saving someone - they would have drowned as well.



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineLewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3893 times:

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 1):
If the PCSOs couldn't swim

This probably explains everything but both of them could not swim in a POND? What kind of training do these PCSOs go through? What are their main duties? They are paid to do what? I think they are probably the 'cops' that tell people to pick up their dog's poo and that's it. That is a waste of money....


User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3886 times:
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Quoting Lewis (Reply 2):
This probably explains everything but both of them could not swim in a POND?

Well, if the pond is more than 2 meters deep, like the article says, it doesn't matter if it's a pond or not...

Quoting Lewis (Reply 2):
What kind of training do these PCSOs go through? What are their main duties? They are paid to do what? I think they are probably the 'cops' that tell people to pick up their dog's poo and that's it. That is a waste of money....

I've never heard of those PCSOs, it must be something UK-specific, but yes, I guess they're doing exactly this, and issuing parking tickets maybe...



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12566 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3874 times:
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Let's just clarify one thing, PCSOs are not policemen. They are "support officers" - basically, joe blogs playing at being cops. I believe PCSO is the new name for what used to be known as Special Constables. Same thing, new name.

As the article says, they are not trained as policemen.

Quote:
Paul Kelly, chairman of the Police Federation in Manchester, said PCSOs do not have the same level of training as police officers to deal with life-saving situations.

I would hate for real cops to get a bad name over this.

PCSO
http://www.policeoracle.com/careers/...l?gclid=CIyBxOjE1I4CFRmzEAodCmkg_A



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3848 times:

Reminds me of the headline "Blunkett's pretend-police is putting lives at risk" that I read in a British newspaper some time ago.

Quote:
The inquest into his death heard the PCSOs did not rescue him as they were not trained to deal with the incident.

What kind of training do you need for this? Swimming and pulling a ten-year-old out of the water doesn't require any training.


User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5696 posts, RR: 44
Reply 6, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3844 times:
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Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Absolutely pathetic, and very telling that police chiefs support these two cowardly morons.

Absolutely pathetic is right.. your comment that is!!

"The alarm was raised and the PCSOs arrived on the scene. Police said they could see no sign of Jordon in the water, so they radioed trained officers for help."

It seems from this that there was no sign of Jordon on the surface and unless trained and equipped for water rescue the risk of adding to the coroners work load and the list of bereved relatives is far to great.

If he was on the surface, a different matter, many everyday items can be used for flotation. Spare tyre from a car, even seat cushions will often provide enough bouyancy to support a person(or several)

Tragic I know



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3837 times:
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Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
Swimming and pulling a ten-year-old out of the water doesn't require any training.

If you consider learning to swim a "training", then yes, it does. There are more people out there who can't swim than what you would believe.



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9367 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3834 times:

There are a couple of issues in saving a drowning person that weren't really addressed here, especially when it comes to the issue of what they are trained or not trained in.

* A conscious drowning victim is most likely panicking. It is amazing the strength a panicked person will have.
In their swinging and struggling, you are likely to get knocked out.

* The victim's fight for survival may make you a victim.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3831 times:

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 7):
If you consider learning to swim a "training", then yes, it does. There are more people out there who can't swim than what you would believe.

Isn't it a prerequisite to be able to swim to work for the police?

Quoting STLGph (Reply 8):
* A conscious drowning victim is most likely panicking. It is amazing the strength a panicked person will have.
In their swinging and struggling, you are likely to get knocked out.

* The victim's fight for survival may make you a victim.

Not that bad when you weigh three times of what that person weighs.


User currently offlineFarcry From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3824 times:

This stinks. I watch as one or two of these plodders pass my house every day. I know where they are going. Down the local council estate office. Real coppers? NO! But the way they strut their stuff you would think they were. If they are not capable of saving lives (in this case water) they should not be employed. Worthless. Absolutely worthless. Isn't 'saving lives' a major part of police work?

User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9367 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Not that bad when you weigh three times of what that person weighs.

i remember in all my water safety classes that the size of a person really doesn't matter. you yourself can still get knocked out and you yourself can still drown.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

Quoting Farcry (Reply 10):
Isn't 'saving lives' a major part of police work?

It should be.

[Edited 2007-09-21 15:29:42]

User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3801 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 4):
They are "support officers" - basically, joe blogs playing at being cops.

No, they are community wardens, so to speak. They can detain someone until a police officer arrives.

They do not have authority to carry out a search of you, unless with a police officer, I believe.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 4):
I believe PCSO is the new name for what used to be known as Special Constables.

No No No  Wink

A "Special Constable" is a volunteer Police Officer, with the same powers as a full time cop.
Please don't confuse the 2, hope this clears things up a little.  Smile


Back to the situation, it was a 2m deep pond, with there being 2 of them at the scene, i'm sure they could have teamed up to try and save the child concerned. A sad state of affairs i'm afraid  Sad




Lee



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3786 times:

Quoting Lewis (Reply 2):
What kind of training do these PCSOs go through?

Probably a lot of crap about what they can and cannot do- and a healthy scare about being sued by everyone under the sun if they overstep their authority. Thank the lawyers, they were probably a big factor in these guys not acting.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 8):
* The victim's fight for survival may make you a victim.

Lesson one of lifeguard school... Which is why it is good they did not attempt the rescue- especially if they were weak swimmers themselves.


User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3777 times:
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HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Isn't it a prerequisite to be able to swim to work for the police?

Not for PCSOs, who aren't real police.



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3731 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 4):
Let's just clarify one thing, PCSOs are not policemen. They are "support officers" - basically, joe blogs playing at being cops. I believe PCSO is the new name for what used to be known as Special Constables. Same thing, new name.

As the article says, they are not trained as policemen.

The police asked for, and got PCSOs in the 2002 Police Reform Act. It was the idea of the police force, and allows them to reduce the number of real police officers on the streets.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 6):
It seems from this that there was no sign of Jordon on the surface and unless trained and equipped for water rescue the risk of adding to the coroners work load and the list of bereved relatives is far to great.

If he was on the surface, a different matter, many everyday items can be used for flotation. Spare tyre from a car, even seat cushions will often provide enough bouyancy to support a person(or several)

Bollocks. It's a pond and his sister had already jumped into the pond to try and rescue him. Two passers-by jumped into the bloody thing, the community support officers still stood by. They are paid by the public for protection, yet the police consistently pay themselves more and give themselves less duty. To stand by while a little child drowns in a pond in ridiculous.

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 13):
No, they are community wardens, so to speak. They can detain someone until a police officer arrives.

Yes, these fake police can detain people, stop and search people and vehicles, seize posessions and fine the public without recourse to courts, yet they can't jump into a 2m pool to save the life of a ten year old?

The 'officers' should be sacked, there should be a public enquiry to the whole seedy business of PCSOs and there should be wholesale of the police force, with the removal of the six-figure salaried senior officers who blame the government, lack of legislation, foreigners and the poor for problems caused by themselves.


User currently offlineTom12 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 1078 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3729 times:

Thats rediculous.


They should havce some form of swimming training when they sign up.

Even so, couldn't they try and find someone who could swim?



"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3723 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):

Isn't it a prerequisite to be able to swim to work for the police?

I don't recall a swimming test- or even swimming lessons anywhere in my Department's training syllabus. I am thinking that is probably the norm.

Basic first aid and CPR isn't even covered at our academy- Everyone gets their red cross certifications hopefully before they complete FTO.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 16):
The 'officers' should be sacked

Because they made a perfectly legal decision that allowed them to go home at the end of the shift? Put yourself in their shoes for a minute and think about the situation objectively.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3716 times:

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 19):

Because they made a perfectly legal decision that allowed them to go home at the end of the shift? Put yourself in their shoes for a minute and think about the situation objectively.

In their position I would have got into a 2m pond and tried to save the life of the child. In fact, I (and most people, you included?) would do that whether or not I was being paid by the public to protect and serve them. The fact that PCSOs can stand there while a child drowns, his sister is trying to save him and passers-by are wading in to try and help is absolutely pathetic.


User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3707 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 20):
The fact that PCSOs can stand there while a child drowns, his sister is trying to save him and passers-by are wading in to try and help is absolutely pathetic.

Did you even read the article you posted.......
"Jordon Lyon leapt into the water in Wigan, Greater Manchester, after his eight-year-old stepsister Bethany got into difficulties on 3 May"
He was attempting to save his sister not the other way round.

The 2 officers in question should at least have been sanctioned/disciplined in some way.

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3667 times:

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 21):
"Jordon Lyon leapt into the water in Wigan, Greater Manchester, after his eight-year-old stepsister Bethany got into difficulties on 3 May"
He was attempting to save his sister not the other way round.

Yes, but at the point where anglers had pulled his sister out the boy had disappeared from view and passers by and his sister got in to try and help. I was talking about the point at which the PSCOs had arrived. It was ultimately the boy's stepfather who pulled him out of the water.

Edit: all this according to the radio!

[Edited 2007-09-21 17:43:51]

User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3313 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3649 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 22):
and his sister got in to try and help.

No where in the article does it state his step-sister helped.

I would have thought commonsense would have made the PCSOs at least attempt looking for the child in the water by wading in.

However I also have to ask... where were the parents during this? Surely the parents should have been aware where the children were playing and kept a watchful eye over them incase such an event occurred.



Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3596 times:

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 15):
Not for PCSOs, who aren't real police.

If it isn't a requirement it bloody should be. These two particular useless idle layabouts should be fired on the spot. I don't care whether they've been trained or not, in a job like that you HAVE to try and help, without question and without thought of self. They have a duty of care to the public, end of story.


User currently onlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26493 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3544 times:

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 1):


Quote:
He said the PCSOs might not have been able to swim, and in that case they should not have risked their lives.

Anyone else think that the ability to swim should be a requirement for even those over glorified hall monitors?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
25 Mir : Ability to swim and CPR/First Aid training should be a requirement for all police officers who are on patrol. -Mir
26 Gkirk : Agreed. Anyone involved with the emergency services should be able to swim, and at least, hold basic first aid badges
27 Post contains images Moo : Have you actually seen pictures of this 'pond'? Its several dozen meters wide, and deep in the middle. If the boy was not in view when the officers a
28 Post contains images 777236ER : Oh yes, a veritable death trap of water that, certainly any adult could quite easily drown in there! Don't make up theories, let's go by the facts. T
29 Moo : Have you visited the location? No? Then you have absolutely no knowledge of the conditions then. Who is making up theories? Everything I stated in my
30 Post contains images Legoguy : Why accuse him of ignoring a fact which is not stated within the article you linked? No where in the opening thread start does it say the police man
31 777236ER : I know that anglers, passers by and another police officer jumped into the pond. Therefore the conditions were suitable for an adult to jump into the
32 Post contains links 777236ER : Moo has done his own research into what happened, he would have come across this fact. If not, then fair enough, here is the source: http://www.guard
33 Legoguy : Thanks for the extra link. I agree the Police Support Officers should have done more, but I also agree with Moo about the absence of parental supervi
34 Moo : And where did I dispute that particular little factoid? Nowhere, thats where. Right, because the support officers in this case knew that for a fact -
35 N1120A : That is a pond and would be easily swum by someone with even a modicum of ability.
36 GDB : Apparently, despite it's benign appearance, that water IS seen as being dangerous, due to it being rather deeper than it seems. While on the surface,
37 WildcatYXU : Well, I'm not. And guess what, I was able to rescue a drowning friend from a deep river without endangering myself. It's not so hard as some people d
38 CaptOveur : Clearly a few people have thrown out common sense in this thread to forward another agenda.
39 777236ER : You're making excuses for the PCSOs that they (and the police themselves) aren't even using, why? A real police officer, as well as elderly anglers,
40 CaptOveur : We have those in this country too. We call them security guards. What is your big problem with them? They probably cost half what a police officer do
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