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Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2107 times:

Yes, according to her husband, despite the fact she fought police, yelled and screamed, made a total fool of herself, and just wouldn't cooperate, she deserved a hug, not handcuffs.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/10/airport.death/index.html

I reel for the guy, losing his wife. But come on, she had cooperated with nary a soul, and you want someone to give her a HUG, or sympathy? Why? She made life miserable for people involved in that situation, and it's her own fault she is no longer alive, not the police; not the airline.

I think this smells of a major lawsuit.

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2107 times:

Sure, lets just hug all the criminals. Maybe the world would be a better place.  Yeah sure

User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2073 times:

I still don't understand why, if she was so fragile, her family allowed her to travel alone. If you've ever watched "intervention," they always escort the addict to the rehab location.

User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2064 times:

Yea she did sound like she shouldn't have been alone but I will say this, she didn't the way Phoenix PD says she did. What's worse is nothing will be done about it.

User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12119 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2058 times:
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Quoting 767Lover (Reply 2):
I still don't understand why, if she was so fragile, her family allowed her to travel alone. If you've ever watched "intervention," they always escort the addict to the rehab location.

Well one reason could be one plane ticket is cheaper than two! And I am sure New York State, where she is from, has treatment centers?



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

Life would be so much easier for cops if all the crazy people would just wear shirts identifying them as crazy.

User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5673 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 1):
Sure, lets just hug all the criminals.

That was WAY out of line. Had you cared to actually find out what happened, this woman had serious mental issues.

I cannot believe that her husband is still going on about what the police did or didn't do. He's the criminal in this, recklessly and negligently allowing his emotionally unstable "wife" (I use quotes because it's becoming apparent his concern and love for her were apparently not there) to travel alone to a rehabilitation center. Air travel can be stressful at times, especially when you miss a flight and are not able to get out for a while. Add an alcoholic, mentally unstable person into the mix...


I feel sorry for her family (minus the husband), the gate agent who was doing his job, and the police who did everything they could to save her life.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 2):
I still don't understand why, if she was so fragile, her family allowed her to travel alone. If you've ever watched "intervention," they always escort the addict to the rehab location.

having assisted in more than one intervention I'll say that it's sort of a hard and fast rule that you don't let a person fly themselves to a facility....
family is at fault here if anyone besides this woman is....



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2010 times:

In the post-9/11 era, police are going to be take more aggressive actions to control those who behave in such a matter as this woman did. Yes, the family is partially to blame for not accompany her to her rehab and she should have gone to a facility much closer to her home in NYC so didn't have to fly. Still, she was in police custody when she died so they do share most of the liability for her dying.

From what we know of this incident, some changes should be made in police procedures to deal with similarly disruptive persons. They should have more officers trained in dealing with those who may be mentally or emotionally ill in a less confrontational way - yes a 'hug' if you will. Aggressive reactions to such persons and their behavior often leads to an escalation in bad behavior back and forth by both parties. The police could have called in Paramedics or others medically trained for advice and assistance. I also think that with her behavior, she should have been not placed in the holding room chained to the bench without direct, full time observation by a police officer or employee and back up quickly available. Such different procedures may have largely prevented the end of this woman's life at PHX.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5673 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1986 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
Aggressive reactions to such persons and their behavior often leads to an escalation in bad behavior back and forth by both parties.

Have you even bothered to watch the video of her arrest? The gate agent tried to calm her down gently. TSA personnel standing at the checkpoint tried to calm her down gently.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
The police could have called in Paramedics or others medically trained for advice and assistance

The police ARE medically trained. To call in medics for every instance of a disorderly person would wreak havoc on the system.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
I also think that with her behavior, she should have been not placed in the holding room chained to the bench without direct, full time observation by a police officer or employee and back up quickly available.

Again, to put a suicide watch on every single D.C. arrest would sap too many resources.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1986 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 6):
That was WAY out of line.

No, she was WAY out of line. People need to stop making excuses for people who are out of control.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1959 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 10):
No, she was WAY out of line. People need to stop making excuses for people who are out of control.

Though I agree there has to be a point where the subject is subdued and subsequently not killed. I mean not to be anti-police here but I think it's plain to see they caused her death. Short of hanging it's next to impossible to strangle yourself. In fact Michael Baden has publicity said the Police's account of her death is not feasible. Criminal or not we have to law enforcement act properly.

[Edited 2007-10-10 12:05:40]

User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Not to sound sappy, but:

This husband is probably in the worst state of grief he's ever experienced. It may come across like he thinks someone should have hugged his wife ... but I think he's expressing what he would like to for her do right now, and is unable to do.

He didn't express it that way, no. But it's not like he had a team of speech writers and handlers to help prepare him for being quoted in the news either. Comments come out wrong. It happens.

I'd give him a huge break, and just realize the guy is in a lot of emotional pain at the moment.



Blank.
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Quoting Diamond (Reply 12):
I'd give him a huge break, and just realize the guy is in a lot of emotional pain at the moment.

Same here, the jackals that are the media should have left him alone. Whatever he said in a eulogy should have been kept private.


User currently offlineEmiratesA345 From Canada, joined Jun 2003, 2123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

Agreed. 100%

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
In the post-9/11 era, police are going to be take more aggressive actions to control those who behave in such a matter as this woman did. Yes, the family is partially to blame for not accompany her to her rehab and she should have gone to a facility much closer to her home in NYC so didn't have to fly. Still, she was in police custody when she died so they do share most of the liability for her dying.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it being post 9/11 era. In Canada, where our police services are known to be considerably less aggressive than those in the United States, specifically at the service that I'm involved with, if you resist arrest, you will be taken down with force. This is done for the protection of the Officers invloved as well as the person being arrested. The police are required to use only as much physical force as necessary to gain control of the person, whether that involves being physically taken down, pepper sprayed, hit with the baton or in the worst case scenario, shot. Based on the assessment of the situation done by the Officer, he/she will decide what is required to gain control of this person, based on the limitations of the Use of Force Continuum. Based on my training, I don't see anything wrong with the way this woman was subdued.

-Mark



You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3085 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

wow the next mental health patiant who tries to kick,bite,spit,punch...etc. I am not going to control...I am going to go up and say " Com'on.....some one needs a hug" and then extend my arms for the embrace that will make it all settle down. Who knows if it works I may stop carrying my gun and replace it with a teddybear...

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Quoting Diamond (Reply 12):
This husband is probably in the worst state of grief he's ever experienced. It may come across like he thinks someone should have hugged his wife ... but I think he's expressing what he would like to for her do right now, and is unable to do.

On that, I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not trying to demean the man-Lord knows, he's been through a lot, with his wife's condition, then her death. And, maybe, when he has time to reflect, he'll think that maybe he'd say it differently. But people who go beserk in airports are not going to be treated with kid gloves. They're just not. It constitutes a threat, and has to be dealed with that way.


User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

OK let's be realistic.

First of all, a man isn't always ready with immediate hugs when it's a woman he loves who is distressed. Usually the reaction is more deer in the headlights "WTF". To expect a police officer to just have an automatic reaction of "Aw, come here, it's okay" with warm and fuzzy hugs during a "call" is just unrealistic.

These officers got called to the scene and found a woman going beserk. The video proves she was going berserk. These officers have no idea who she is, what has happened to her or what substance she is "on" or what sharp object she might be carrying. They simply try to restrain her the best they can. Sometimes it takes a lot to restrain the person. My 78-year old demented mother is strong enough to take me down when she wants to. So I'm sure this lady was being quite difficult.

She is put in a holding cell where she can be safe and not harm herself or anyone else (ostensibly).

Instead of allowing herself to calm down, she goes into some sort of gyration that causes her own death. That is very sad, very tragic, but she caused it herself. I do not see where these officers are at all culpable for her death. It is really no different than me going berserk, a friend running after me to get me to calm down, and me running into traffic and getting hit by a car.

I know there have been instances of police brutality in some cases, but I don't think this is it.


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 6):
That was WAY out of line. Had you cared to actually find out what happened, this woman had serious mental issues.

If this guy thought his wife was "suicidal" as has been reported. Then he's criminally negligent in my mind for allowing her to travel alone. As a frequent traveller, the last thing I want is to get on a plane with a suicidal nutcase.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

Perhaps if a family member traveled with her, then someone would have been there to give her a hug. Something just stinks about this entire case. His comments that she was supposed to meet a friend at the airport, and how is that friend supposed to get through security?

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I think this smells of a major lawsuit.

Not here in Phoenix, if this case ever went to trial, he will lose big time, unless some information regarding cause of death becomes public that we are not aware of.


User currently offlineMSPGUY From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

if they would of hugged her then they would be getting slapped with sexual harassment lawsuit


If it ain't broke, DON'T touch it!!!!
User currently offlineSaturnVRocket From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 20):
if they would of hugged her then they would be getting slapped with sexual harassment lawsuit

Learn to be less literal for the love of God.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29805 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
In the post-9/11 era, police are going to be take more aggressive actions

Sorry but that is a very weak justification for police aggression.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
The police ARE medically trained

No they aren't, other then some basic first aid.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 12):
I'd give him a huge break, and just realize the guy is in a lot of emotional pain at the moment.

Agree completely, he just stated how he feels.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 17):
She is put in a holding cell where she can be safe and not harm herself

Yeah, that really worked out well

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 20):
if they would of hugged her then they would be getting slapped with sexual harassment lawsuit

Completely politically incorrect but probably correct



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13649 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1773 times:
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Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 10):
No, she was WAY out of line. People need to stop making excuses for people who are out of control.

Though I agree there has to be a point where the subject is subdued and subsequently not killed.

She died, she wasn't killed. Saying she was killed implies the police 'did this to her'. She did it to herself, aided by her family's spectacularly stupid decision to not travel with her.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5673 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1773 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
In fact Michael Baden has publicity said the Police's account of her death is not feasible.

Did Mr. Baden examine the scene of the accident? Did he do the autopsy on her body?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
I mean not to be anti-police here but I think it's plain to see they caused her death.

I couldn't disagree more with you. I'm not gonna say any more, because it'll prolly earn me a ban.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Short of hanging it's next to impossible to strangle yourself.

Unless, you know, you wrap a chain around your neck.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 10):
No, she was WAY out of line. People need to stop making excuses for people who are out of control.

People need to be a little more sensitive to people who recognize that they have a problem AND seek out help for that problem.

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
If this guy thought his wife was "suicidal" as has been reported. Then he's criminally negligent in my mind for allowing her to travel alone.

Agreed. From the Wikipedia article on Criminal Negligence:

Quote:
But criminal negligence is a 'misfeasance or 'nonfeasance', where the fault lies in the failure to foresee and so allow otherwise avoidable dangers to manifest.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
25 CaptOveur : I believe it is federally mandated that all first responders (police, medics, even dispatchers) go through what is called crisis intervention trainin
26 HuskyAviation : I'm sorry, but you know this how?
27 767Lover : Good point.
28 Kalakaua : Has anyone seen that CSI episode? If you know what I'm talking about... It kinda reminds me of that. But I don't know. I wasn't there.
29 NIKV69 : Oh I am exactly implying that. There is no possible way for a human being to strangle oneself other than hanging. If you tried to choke yourself with
30 CaptOveur : So how long have you worked in law enforcement? I am guessing never How many hostile people have you ever had to physically bring under control? I am
31 NIKV69 : LOLOL, this woman was how big, weighed how much? Come on pal. They screwed up. Big time too. This woman could have been put under control easily. Bra
32 AirCop : A review of case histories in Maricopa County Superior Court shows that Phoenix civil juries side with the police.
33 HuskyAviation : That may be true, but you don't know all the facts of the case (nor do I), so to already come to a conclusion as to the result of a potential civil t
34 CaptOveur : That shows just how little you know.
35 NIKV69 : Ok joe pro cop. Tell me how an unarmed female that couldn't weighed more than 120 lbs was arrested and put in a cell and is now dead. When the most r
36 Greasespot : I work with people who missed 2 weeks of work becasue of a small 100 lb woman( got kicked in the knee)....Some of the greatest resisters are the small
37 Post contains images TheCol : Yeah, thats why people are screaming for independent inquires of RCMP misconduct.
38 Lobster : You tell him to stick to the facts and yet you make an comment like that. Hmmmm. First off, Dr. Henry Lee is the most respected forensic pathologist
39 EmiratesA345 : Haha well said! All that is totally irrelevant. It's called excited delirium. I've seen a couple guys who were so strung out that it took 6 or 7 Offi
40 EmiratesA345 : I'm not sure how many times in Canada you've been approached by an Officer with his firearm drawn, while at a routine traffic stop. -Mark[Edited 2007
41 Slider : Exactly---and it's also interesting that she changed her itinerary as well. But not so much pain that this privileged family can't hire their own MD
42 Redngold : It may be "next to impossible" to strangle yourself, but if you're drunk and unable to control your muscles, it's much easier. I've heard of men dying
43 NIKV69 : The won't let him. If they do then we will know the truth. And then what? You have to apply and keep pressure applied to be effective. She could not
44 Maverick623 : Ever consider that when the chain went around her neck she fell over and was not strong enough to pull herself out of the choke? Never underestimate
45 NIKV69 : Can't happen. It's impossible. Go get a chain and try it yourself. I'm not but she could have been restrained without killing her of seriously hurtin
46 CaptOveur : Invalid argument. We are all in a sound state of mind. As has already been said the smallest people are the most violent resisters and can easily tak
47 Maverick623 : I'll say it again: no self-respecting physician would make a diagnosis, or proscribe a treatement, without directly examining the patient.
48 TheCol : So you've had American cops pull sidearms out on you more than once?
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