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Religion Has Become Politics  
User currently offlineMbj-11 From Jamaica, joined Aug 2000, 386 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1114 times:

Sad to say, but the truth is the truth. I am a Christian who stands by the principles and teachings of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. I take the insults, I take the ridicule but that is a part of the whole journey. However, it has become too obvious that Christ has been replaced by religion and religion being created by man has evolved into politics.I observe it in every nations political debate, most recently Jamaica's and currently the US.
Christ is now placed in each persons pocket to suit his or her party's own agenda and belief. He has become gay, straight, a terrorist and a bigot........saying all this to say that Christ is not respected in todays world. No longer is society trying to lift their morales to reflect that of Christ(Christian society's), but Christ has been bent and shaped to suit the morales of every group who wants to justify their actions or belief. And this has occurred due to religion evolving into politics rather than teaching what the love of God and Jesus is all about. Religion has served to divide God's people from him and in doing so has run contrary to what the father hath outlined for us, which is to offer love to each other and seek the redemption of our souls.God is not a god of confusion, neither does he divide families or his people based on geography, ethnicity or "class".Religion has done everything that politics has which makes one realize............religion has become politics.
I know the daggers have been drawn and the hecklers are ready, but the truth is the truth and thank God for the truth as it will set all free.


Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1107 times:

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
but the truth is the truth and thank God for the truth as it will set all free.

You speak of truth and then espose one potential version of it. Truth is indeed truth, for there can only be one, but when conceptually put in the hands of fallible humans, it leads to divided allegiance or outright rejection. Sounds a bit like politics to me.


User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2006 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1102 times:
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In religion, there can be no "one" truth. Each religion has its own truth, and hence the reason why the so-called "faithful" should be kept as far away from politics as possible.


It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1092 times:

Quoting PA110 (Reply 2):
In religion, there can be no "one" truth. Each religion has its own truth

If that's the case, then it's not truth. There can only be one absolute truth. Religions could be viewed as different paths to the one truth, but to state that each has their own truth destroys the meaning of the word truth.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1081 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 3):
There can only be one absolute truth. Religions could be viewed as different paths to the one truth, but to state that each has their own truth destroys the meaning of the word truth.

yep, all religions percieve what they believe to be the truth, we can never be certain, and we can have is a false feeling that we're indeed correct.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineZak From Greenland, joined Sep 2003, 1993 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1081 times:

a) religion has always been politics

b) truth is implicitly only claimed and not proven by religion, which is defined by belief, which can hence not claim absolute knowledge otherwise you would not be a believer but a knower



10=2
User currently offlineToast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1081 times:

Sorry, but this is old news. Very, very old news. Ever since the Ancient Babylonians and Egyptians figured out religion was the perfect way to control people, religion and politics has been one and the same thing. By the time Jesus was born, religion was already a very old, full-fledged and ruthless political organization, as well as a booming industry.

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
the truth is the truth and thank God for the truth as it will set all free.






edit:typo

[Edited 2007-10-10 11:31:24]

User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1081 times:

Quoting Zak (Reply 5):
truth is implicitly only claimed and not proven by religion

But truth still exists, even if religion cannot explain it. In fact, truth does not need religion to explain it. Truth just is.

Don't confuse absolute truth with words spoken as "truthful."


User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1081 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 1):
Truth is indeed truth, for there can only be one

That approach is the reason for every conflict on earth, whether it is individual or global.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 3):
If that's the case, then it's not truth. There can only be one absolute truth

Whenever someone starts pushing the idea that there is "only one truth" in any situation, it is a setup for the inevitable conversation that goes like this: "I'm right and you're wrong, and I can prove it."

If you have a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist sitting around discussing their faith and it's principles, there are going to be significant differences. So which of those people is speaking the 'truth'?

Truth is more than just 'data'. Two people can listen to a speech and come away from it with differning interpretations - maybe even opposite ones. That does not mean that one person got it 'right' and the other person got it 'wrong.' It means that both peoople experienced the data differently. And both of them experienced something that is their own truth.


The reality is that all human communication (and the thoughts behind them) can be divided into 3 simple categories:

data leads to judgements lead to feelings


The problem is that most people confuse their own judgments and feelings with "truth". Only actual data can ever be close to truth, and even then how a person experiences that data provides more than one result.



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User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1052 times:

Quoting Diamond (Reply 8):
Whenever someone starts pushing the idea that there is "only one truth" in any situation, it is a setup for the inevitable conversation that goes like this: "I'm right and you're wrong, and I can prove it."

Kevin, you're thinking of truth as a set of words that one group agrees with and another group does not.

I'm referring to absolute truth. What is, is. It has nothing to do with a set of beliefs, it has to do with what is. Regardless of how many paths one could use to get to it, and how seemingly unrelated and conflicting these paths are, there can only be one reality.

Are you suggesting that if one person believes in one religion, they end up at their version of "heaven," and if someone else believes in another religion, they end up at a different "heaven," and if someone believes in atheism, they end up "nowhere?"


User currently offlineToast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1052 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 9):
if someone believes in atheism

Atheism is not a religion. You cannot "believe in atheism".

 wave 


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1052 times:

Quoting Diamond (Reply 8):
If you have a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist sitting around discussing their faith and it's principles, there are going to be significant differences. So which of those people is speaking the 'truth'?

The truth about what?

The Christian may be speaking the truth about the facts of Christianity, but be completely off base for the truth of the facts of Hinduism... and both of those truths may not be the real truth regarding the facts of.. reality, only topic specific truths. So, they could all have the truth about their specific religions, but none of them may have the real truth.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 8):
And both of them experienced something that is their own truth.

They have formed opinions on what the truth is, neither of them may have the real truth.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 8):
The problem is that most people confuse their own judgments and feelings with "truth". Only actual data can ever be close to truth, and even then how a person experiences that data provides more than one result.

100% Humans like to skew truth with a personal slant.


User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1052 times:

Quoting Toast (Reply 10):
You cannot "believe in atheism".

Of course you can. I never said Atheism is a religion, and a concept need not be of a religious nature in order to be held as a belief. An Atheist's belief is that all of existence is non-theocratic; that is, the spiritual concepts espoused by religion(s) do not exist.


User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1032 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 9):
I'm referring to absolute truth. What is, is. It has nothing to do with a set of beliefs, it has to do with what is. Regardless of how many paths one could use to get to it, and how seemingly unrelated and conflicting these paths are, there can only be one reality

I may not disagree with you on that, specifically. What are a few examples of 'absolute truth'? Do you mean something like, "gravity exists" or that the "earth is round"? Even I would agree that those things are 'true' - but that has little to do with the word 'truth' when used in a religious context.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 9):
Are you suggesting that if one person believes in one religion, they end up at their version of "heaven," and if someone else believes in another religion, they end up at a different "heaven," and if someone believes in atheism, they end up "nowhere?"

Here's just one example of what I am saying: Many Christians speak very forcefully that what is written in the Bible is the "only truth" and that there can be no other way. They are actually referring to a set of beliefs and values that are very important to them, but mislabeling those beliefs and values as "the TRUTH." It isn't.



Blank.
User currently offlineToast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1032 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 12):

Ah, OK. It's the wording that threw me: I've never before seen the expression 'to believe in atheism". It's normally "to be an atheist".  Smile


User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1032 times:

Quoting Diamond (Reply 13):
They are actually referring to a set of beliefs and values that are very important to them, but mislabeling those beliefs and values as "the TRUTH." It isn't.

Exactly. Same goes for many other religions. My point is, no matter what "Earth-bound" truth one may espouse, there is, at the end of it all, only one real truth for all of us. It may be related to these singular truths, more to some than others, or completely unrelated. I don't know, none of us do. But absolute truth still exists for all of us even if none of us know what it is.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 13):
What are a few examples of 'absolute truth'?

Rather than cite examples of something I cannot possibly understand, I'll just say that absolute truth is how it all turns out for us. No matter what "truths" we believe on Earth, there is a singular reality waiting for all of us. Now, that singular reality might be that St. Peter is there and he's minding the gate...or it might be that we all re-incarnate as lower beings if we led a bad life and higher beings if we led an exemplary life. However, I think the real truth is probably far from the verbal and book-bound "truths" that are known and bandied about here on Earth.

Quoting Toast (Reply 14):
It's the wording that threw me: I've never before seen the expression 'to believe in atheism". It's normally "to be an atheist".

Fair enough, an Atheist believes in Atheism. I chose that wording because it fit the context of how I had structured my sentence. But you are correct that the latter is more common useage.


User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1032 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):
The Christian may be speaking the truth about the facts of Christianity, but be completely off base for the truth of the facts of Hinduism... and both of those truths may not be the real truth regarding the facts of.. reality, only topic specific truths. So, they could all have the truth about their specific religions, but none of them may have the real truth.

Your comment leaves a lot of room for these differing faiths to co-exist nicely. It's a great concept, but it doesn't describe how most people of any faith see others who don't share their beliefs. The Bible does not include a disclaimer which acknowledges the existence and tolerance of other religions. At no point does the Bible say, "there may be more than one way to look at this, so please be curious and explore alternatives."

You sound somewhat open to the idea of differning truths, which is great. My point was that most people who identify as strongly religious are not open to anything that differs from what they've been taught.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):
They have formed opinions on what the truth is, neither of them may have the real truth.

At the risk of getting really philosophical, what is this "real truth" you speak of? Any examples?



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User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1003 times:

Quoting Toast (Reply 10):
Atheism is not a religion. You cannot "believe in atheism".



Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 12):

Of course you can. I never said Atheism is a religion, and a concept need not be of a religious nature in order to be held as a belief. An Atheist's belief is that all of existence is non-theocratic; that is, the spiritual concepts espoused by religion(s) do not exist.



Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 12):

Of course you can. I never said Atheism is a religion, and a concept need not be of a religious nature in order to be held as a belief. An Atheist's belief is that all of existence is non-theocratic; that is, the spiritual concepts espoused by religion(s) do not exist.

""Do you have a belief that atheism is true? If no, then you're lying, if yes, then you are acting on faith. If you don't believe in God, you must believe in something or someone else. An atheist doesn't simply lack positive belief in God. The atheist has positive belief in the non-existence of God."

"The Religion of Atheism is for the totally unrational person, which is why Atheists account for less that 10% of the population. There are Ulterior Motives to Atheism, namely : Admitting the obvious of an INtelligent Creator introduces accountability and someone who is bigger and more important than oneself ...and, it impedes on the present less than desirable and/or immoral (incl. sexually, in most cases) lifestyle that the Atheist has chosen for himself. Both of these can be summarized by Pride."

It seems odd for a follower of a faith to try to attack atheism by saying it is also a faith. I think the reasoning is that if atheism is a faith or religion, then atheists have no cause to criticise other faiths or religions. One flaw in this argument is that if atheism were indeed a religion, then theists would have no reason to criticise atheism being taught in schools as part of religious education, or even the setting up of atheist-run schools alongside Baptist, Catholic and Muslim schools.

Somehow, I think voices may be raised in protest should that happen. =)

Alternatively, the idea is that atheists are hypocrites for attacking the faithful when atheism itself is a result of faith.

However, the big problem is this :

ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION OR A FAITH!

Atheism, by definition, is the absence of theism. If you cannot say "I believe in a Deity/God/Supreme Being" then you are an atheist. If you are not a theist, then you are an atheist.

As mentioned in the Introduction page, there is a subtle but important difference between "believing there is no God", and "not believing there is a God". The first is a belief, the second is a lack of that belief. I don't know any atheists who "believe" God (take your pick, there are plenty) does not exist. All the atheists I know simply do not believe God does exist.

There is a big difference between positively believing that a thing does not exist, and simply lacking belief in it's existence. In many cases, atheists will say "That God does not exist", not because they choose to do so, but because, from the description of the God, it cannot exist due to contradictory attributes. In the same way that a square circle cannot (and therefore does not) exist, a God defined as (for example) all-knowing, yet cannot see into the future, cannot and does not exist because the definition is self-contradictory. If you describe your God with self-contradicting attributes which make it logically impossible, then I may safely say that such a thing does not exist as described. This is not faith - this is reason.

If someone asked you about unicorns, would you say "I believe there are no unicorns", or would it be more honest to say "I do not believe in unicorns"? These are two different answers. Nobody disbelieves in unicorns purely as a matter of personal faith. ..."

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/atheismreligion.html

" The religious and others have a �belief� that ignorance is superior to empirical knowledge.

Atheist see no credible empirical or scientific evidence for the super-natural and therefore reject the notion as one only originating from our ignorance.

There is absolutely no similarity between the Atheist philosophical stance in life and that of the religious. Atheists accept only facts, whereas the religious et al find no need for them.... "

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/belief.htm


User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1003 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):
The Christian may be speaking the truth about the facts of Christianity, but be completely off base for the truth of the facts of Hinduism... and both of those truths may not be the real truth regarding the facts of.. reality, only topic specific truths. So, they could all have the truth about their specific religions, but none of them may have the real truth.

Perhaps I just should have put it this way. What I referred to as "absolute truth" is what MDorBust referred to as "the real truth" or "reality."

Actually, I did here, but you may not have had a chance to read this yet:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 15):
My point is, no matter what "Earth-bound" truth one may espouse, there is, at the end of it all, only one real truth for all of us.



Quoting Diamond (Reply 16):
At the risk of getting really philosophical, what is this "real truth" you speak of? Any examples?

Since you did ask me the same question, having though about it, here are some more, perhaps better, examples:

1. There is an afterlife.

2. There isn't.

3. A higher power judges us.

4. A higher power doesn't.

What I find hard to accept is the concept that someone who has a religious belief that includes an afterlife will experience said afterlife, but one who does not will experience nothing.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1003 times:

Quoting Diamond (Reply 16):
It's a great concept, but it doesn't describe how most people of any faith see others who don't share their beliefs.

An unfortunate reality. I wish more people of faith could accept that they may be right, but then again they may be wrong.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 16):
The Bible does not include a disclaimer which acknowledges the existence and tolerance of other religions. At no point does the Bible say, "there may be more than one way to look at this, so please be curious and explore alternatives."

Perhaps a shortcoming of a particular religion. It's been a long time since I've had a serious discusion of the fundamentals of Christianity, but I seem to recall tolerance and acceptance being key tenants of the faith. AA, a psuedo Christian group, at least has a prayer to accept that which can not be changed. I think that applies to others religious beliefs.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 16):
At the risk of getting really philosophical, what is this "real truth" you speak of? Any examples?

I wish I knew the real truth... then again, I suspect my head may explode if I did so it might not be so nice a thing. I know facts about certain things, and I know that a some points in my life I "knew" things were true and now know different. Those weren't the truth, they were my perceptions. There is a real truth out there. There is a way the universe was created, and there is a way life started. What that truth happens to be, well, that's a little beyond me.


User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1003 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 18):
Since you did ask me the same question, having though about it, here are some more, perhaps better, examples:

You seem to be showing that the real truth can be one of many possiblities that we could choose to be open to. If so, then I agree. In fact one of my key points in working with people is that they often have limited themselves to only one choice, or very few choices, when there may be many of them.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 18):
What I find hard to accept is the concept that someone who has a religious belief that includes an afterlife will experience said afterlife, but one who does not will experience nothing.

True. That's a bit like saying, "if I can't see it, it's not there."



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User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1003 times:

Quoting Diamond (Reply 20):
True. That's a bit like saying, "if I can't see it, it's not there."

Said right before the Tiger springs. A very definative assertion that perception is not reality.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1003 times:

Religion is just politics without a choice, but with an afterlife. "You WILL believe this, you WILL behave in this way, if you don't, not only will we persecute you in this life, the next life won't be much fun either !"

It's all about controlling people. If you like being controlled and told what to think, you'll enjoy it.


User currently offlineToast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 989 times:

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 17):
The Religion of Atheism is for the totally unrational person, which is why Atheists account for less that 10% of the population. There are Ulterior Motives to Atheism, namely : Admitting the obvious of an INtelligent Creator introduces accountability and someone who is bigger and more important than oneself ...and, it impedes on the present less than desirable and/or immoral (incl. sexually, in most cases) lifestyle that the Atheist has chosen for himself.

Sorry to put it this bluntly, but I don't know how to say it otherwise: what a load of bullshit. Is this your own thought, or are you quoting someone?


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 989 times:

Quoting Toast (Reply 23):

it is his sincere belief, but that is what is wrong with people who try to convince others that religion in the way to salvation if there is such a thing and that everyone elses beliefs are shit. That is the problem. I was born in a family that practices a faith, but I do not go around telling people that you must beleive in God, hell I dont even know why I believe in one, I believe there is one, but thats it, I am not totally convinced that there isnt one, therefore I'm not agnostic, I think Im a deist, simply believing in the existence of a superior being but thats it. Religion should be a private matter, and people shouldnt try to spread the word to those who dont give a damn about it, this philosophy of we're going to spread the Gospel to save people is just wrong.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
25 B752fanatic : Oh come on man, Religion has always been part of politics, ever since politics ever started. There is no way of separeting them. However, the founding
26 CastleIsland : No, I don't believe it's "true," whatever that means, and I'm not lying. I do however, believe that Atheism is a rational choice, just as rational as
27 LAXspotter : Seems that you and I are on the same boat. Theism and Atheism are two different approaches to the same goal, to answer the same question and to find
28 Tom in NO : It then follows that every Atheist must have more 'faith' in their beliefs in order to completely and unequivocably state that they do not believe in
29 TACAA320 : If both of you read the links provided, specially the first one, you will find the answer to your concerns.
30 CastleIsland : Hey Tom: I'm not sure how "it follows." Are you suggesting that because there are a multitude of religious faiths that an Atheist must have more fait
31 LAXspotter : exactly, and for those of us who choose to believe in an afterlife, IMO it really doenst matter what you believe in or not, a supreme being if there
32 Tom in NO : My comment, made generally, is that an Atheist (whom Webster's defines as "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or bei
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