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Turkey Border Clash  
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10864 posts, RR: 38
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1261 times:

I am not a specialist in geostrategy so do you think this Turkey border clash with the Kurdish PKK could lead to a war between Turkey and Iraq? Would the Turkish government go to war over this and send troops to the area?

We have to wait until tomorrow and see how the price of crude oil will react to this.


Quote:
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has called a crisis meeting in Ankara, which is likely to consider whether to attack PKK bases in Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7055004.stm


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1254 times:

They have troops already inside Iraq, basically no one else is watching. The political part is if they will use the airforce or not...

User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2538 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1242 times:

we don't have troops stationed inside, they go in and out, and do what they need to do, and will do what they need to do after what happened today...may those soldiers RIP....

I'm turkish, and i don't stand for any part of my country to be given to anyone else, neither would any of you...and those young kids didn't deserve to die in that ambush today, and I quite frankly can't believe the US is telling us to still back off...no one told the us to back off after 9/11.....



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1240 times:

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 2):
I quite frankly can't believe the US

frankly its double standards. When Israel was attacked by Hezbollah Bush said it was the legal and moral right of Israel to "defend herself" yet when Turkey is attacked by TERRORISTS, they're told to hold back. It is a very similar issue, yet double standards are noticeable once again.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2538 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1226 times:

it just makes it more and more clear, that the US has major intentions to secure its own oil and national growth, otherwise you would have wiped out Cuba, instead they choose to back stab us, support the PKK, run a country that is no longer called Iraq, it's a shamble....sad, sad sad.....all for oilll


The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineBofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1224 times:

I hope that Turkey will wipe out PKK for good!

User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2538 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1213 times:

I need to make this clear...

in Turkey, we DO not have a problem with KURDS, we have a problem with the PKK a kurdish group of terrorists....it needs to be clear to everyone..... we are not anti kurdish and u will not find any media or any propaganda in turkey that says anything bad about kurdish people...it's the pkk



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1208 times:

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 6):
we are not anti kurdish

so will they ever have a homeland?



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineBCNGRO From Andorra, joined Oct 2004, 584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1207 times:

I think Kurdistan's status should be discussed democratically by all the people living there and Turkey should accept their decision. Violence is not justified for any of the parts.


At the bus station, buses stop. At the train station, trains stop. At my desk, I have a work station.
User currently offlineEmrecan From Turkey, joined Feb 2000, 934 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1201 times:

The other countries must understand one point. Turkey is against PKK not Kurdish people. Kurdish people living in Turkey are also against PKK. Unfortunately, for the years others have blamed Turkey for killing Kurds and they have never accepted PKK as a terrorist group. Today 'son of the b... Barzani' is saying that he cannot name PKK as terrorists.

The world must understand and must support Turkey on this situation. Even we are alone, we will finish this problem by ourselves.
For years Turks and Kurds are brothers and live together in peace without any problem. Noone can stop this...


User currently offlineEmrecan From Turkey, joined Feb 2000, 934 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1198 times:

LAXSpotter:

They can have a homeland in California. Give your land to them if you want so


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1192 times:

I'm gonna take that as a NO.


"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2538 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1192 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
so will they ever have a homeland?

not if it takes from my homeland....



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineEmrecan From Turkey, joined Feb 2000, 934 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1187 times:

BCNGRO:

It is clear that you don't know anything about the subject, so please learn more and then write here ok?????


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10864 posts, RR: 38
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1180 times:

Thanks for your input Pilotaydin. Could you please explain what created PKK and what motivates their terrorist actions? Please understand that I am totally ignorant of the situation.  Confused This is why I started the thread.


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2538 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1168 times:

i wouldnt call anyone ignorant on this situation, it is not a well publiced matter, only recently since the US has been involved in politics over here has cnn and other affiliates been reporting on it, they make it seem new...

The kurds have been displaced for years and years, some say hundreds....they are basically a group of people who have ethnically bounced around between syria, turkey, iraq and iran, and a large portion of them live in turkey, in the millions actually. Some of them want their own nation, Kurdistan, and well the problem is, where is the land? all soil has been claimed for many years now....so what basically happened was a group called the PKK has been trying to dismantle portions of turkey in name of kurdistan, and over the years have killed close to 28,000 turks....we too have taken innocent lives of theirs, and of their militia...but the fighting goes on...in the clinton era it was dormant...but now with bush and america giving the kurds of the north of iraq hope, they are up in arms and are trying to use this wave to turn the us and turkey against each other.....Kurdish people live in south eastern turkey, they are kind and friendly, but the ones that do not appreciate turkey are members of the PKK, the separatist group that wish to take down my country. Their main leader, APO as we call him, was captured by turkish special forces in africa and brought to turkey, he is held captive on a remote island just outside turkey, awaiting sentencing, but that too is a big issue, if we kill him, northern iraq will turn a shit storm, for us and the USA....so it would have been in the USA's best interest to be on our side with this...
no one knows what they are doing now

that's it in a nutshell
any ?s, feel free



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1160 times:

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 13):
It is clear that you don't know anything about the subject, so please learn more and then write here ok?????

Wow, you guys really dont want your "Turkishness" to be insulted. Its rather Ironic how the vast majority of Turks would support the movement of a Palestinian homeland, yet deny those same aspirations for the Kurds, and those of you who consistenly continue to emphasize that Turkey treats all Kurds equal, are trying to downplay the reality. Is any talk of Kurdish Nationalism against the law?



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1157 times:

Pilot, that´s the official version, everyone knows the truth, Turkish troops are inside Iraq operating.
APO was caught by Mossad and Kenyan special forces in Kenya and handed over to Turkish intelligence as a trophy.
I doubt Turkey dare to execute him.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1155 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 16):
Wow, you guys really dont want your "Turkishness" to be insulted. Its rather Ironic how the vast majority of Turks would support the movement of a Palestinian homeland, yet deny those same aspirations for the Kurds, and those of you who consistenly continue to emphasize that Turkey treats all Kurds equal, are trying to downplay the reality. Is any talk of Kurdish Nationalism against the law?

Most Turks don´t care about the Palestines, Turkey got embassy in Tel-Aviv and sell chartertrips to Israelis.


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2908 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1142 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
so will they ever have a homeland?

That's not really Turkey's problem......

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 18):
Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 16):
Wow, you guys really dont want your "Turkishness" to be insulted. Its rather Ironic how the vast majority of Turks would support the movement of a Palestinian homeland, yet deny those same aspirations for the Kurds, and those of you who consistenly continue to emphasize that Turkey treats all Kurds equal, are trying to downplay the reality. Is any talk of Kurdish Nationalism against the law?

The differences between those 2 cases are vast and why should Turkey now have to give up some territory to these people??? The best solution is for a piece of Iraq to be given to the Kurds to set up their homelend.



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1132 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 19):
The differences between those 2 cases are vast and why should Turkey now have to give up some territory to these people??? The best solution is for a piece of Iraq to be given to the Kurds to set up their homelend.

yes, it is different and was a horrible example on my part, apologies. However, as you noted what will probably happen is that Iraq will be divided into three regions, and one of them will be an independent Kurdistan in the North. I doubt tho that life would be better in Independent Kurdistan as to lure in thousands of Kurds from all over the middleeast.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineBCNGRO From Andorra, joined Oct 2004, 584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1129 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 16):
Wow, you guys really dont want your "Turkishness" to be insulted. Its rather Ironic how the vast majority of Turks would support the movement of a Palestinian homeland, yet deny those same aspirations for the Kurds, and those of you who consistenly continue to emphasize that Turkey treats all Kurds equal, are trying to downplay the reality. Is any talk of Kurdish Nationalism against the law?

That's the kind of double standards I can not stand.

Same thing here in Spain for people claiming historical rights over Gibraltar (UK) while denying those of Catalonia or the Basque country.

I may not know too much about the kurds' case but I do know about many countries' foreign and "inner" policies on these issues and often they are just non-democratical.



At the bus station, buses stop. At the train station, trains stop. At my desk, I have a work station.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13943 posts, RR: 63
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1111 times:

Just to make one thing clear: The PKK is not just for an independent Kurdistan, but it is also a deeply stalinist marxist party, under their, now imprisoned leader Oecalan, who aimed to be their supreme leader.
They have not just been fighting turkish forces, but also opposition Kurdish parties. In
Europe they blackmailed and threaten exiled Kurds to make donations to their party (revolutionary tax). In Germany PKK activists have been burning Turkish owned shops. This is why they are banned as a terrorist and extremist organisation in Germany.

I understand that the Basque ETA is also not just fighting for an independent Euskadi (the name for the Basque country in their own language) , but for an Euskadi led by them, where private property is being nationalised. the Irish IRA had similar aims in Ireland.

During the last elections in Turkey, the people in the Kurdish regions overwhelmingly voted for the moderate Islamic conservative party, which is now ruling Turkey. I think that also new laws which gave the Kurds a limited autonomy and the official recognition of their language and cultire have helped. The support for Kurduish nationalist parties has apparently dropped.
IMO the main problem lies that the Kurdish regions of Anatolia are among the most backward ones of Turkey, with often feudalist structures still in place and poverty widespread. IMO a strong development programme will remove the base from which the likes of the PKK recruit their supporters.

The PKK has seen that they lost influence since Oecalan was arrested and, from what I have heard, the recent attacks on Turkish troops (the armistice was broken by the PKK) were carried out to draw attention to the PKK.

Jan

[Edited 2007-10-21 16:36:12]

[Edited 2007-10-21 16:37:35]

User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1099 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 20):
yes, it is different and was a horrible example on my part, apologies. However, as you noted what will probably happen is that Iraq will be divided into three regions, and one of them will be an independent Kurdistan in the North. I doubt tho that life would be better in Independent Kurdistan as to lure in thousands of Kurds from all over the middleeast.

I think Turkish governments, at one time or another, have said they will not accept a truly independent Kurdish state in what is now northern Iraq. My guess is that they believe it would further inspire PKK to try to agitate for lopping off a part of SE Turkey to annex to the new country. This would definitely claim many lives. Not sure if Turkey would invade an 'independent' Kurdistan or not, as this would really pose an awkward problem for the US -- unless of course they waited until after the inevitable American withdrawal.

I work with 3 Turkish citizens (dual Canadian/Turkish) and all very fine people, and I understand this is a very sensitive problem for them, and they truly feel Turkey is being misrepresented in th world media.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1092 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
I am not a specialist in geostrategy so do you think this Turkey border clash with the Kurdish PKK could lead to a war between Turkey and Iraq? Would the Turkish government go to war over this and send troops to the area?

It is an extremely tense situation. The PKK is strongly identified with the Kurdish populations in Iraq and Turkey, although as MD11 pointed out, they do not necessarily represent them in terms of political ambitions. The Iraqi Kurds, for instance have no desire for Marxism, but they still identify with and sympathize with the PKK.

The PKK being an internationally recognized terrorist group, it should be fairly easy for the US to go after them at the same time as going after Al Qaeda in Iraq. That way the Turks would join the fight against Al Qaeda. But if they did that publicly, the Iraqi Kurds will be extremely pissed off, and they are the part of Iraq that has progressed the most since the liberation of Iraq.

So it's a delicate situation - how to fight the PKK and help the Turks in their legitimate concerns, without pissing off our best allies among the Iraqi population.

Welcome to Geopolitics!


25 Virgin744 : Article 4 of the Turkish Constitution declares "the indivisibility of the Republic and of the Turkish Nation" therefore its illegal. That's got to be
26 LAXspotter : Turkey has every right to defend herself against the PKK, but there are many Turks who seem to deny That's what I needed NONE Just wondering tho, what
27 Emrecan : LAXSpotter: One day come to Turkey and see how we live together with Kurdish people in peace.[Edited 2007-10-21 23:26:57]
28 LAXspotter : I must, it is one of the greatest countries in the World. I must visit Istanbul, one of the greatest cities. I dunno how life is for Kurds frankly, t
29 Emrecan : It is great to we have the same point of view on this subject.
30 LAXspotter : I'm not totally unreasonable, I am just wondering what the long term solution is for the "Kurdish Problem".
31 ME AVN FAN : it looks as if the Turks are NOT to attack Kurdistan on the ground. But the slightest incident could change this and lead to a limited invasion of Ku
32 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : well, the "war on terror" for GWB and his men is OK as long as it is according to THEIR lines, but no longer of interest if other people want to act
33 ME AVN FAN : Kurdish people in Turkey are against the PKK for TWO reasons. A) it is a violent organisation and B) it is a far-let organisation. I am sure however
34 BigTom : Turkey is completely within their rights to strike back at the PKK. With the Iraqis not being able to control what is happening within their own borde
35 ME AVN FAN : - Iraqi "Kurdistan" can be regarded as already "semi-independent". Whether anti-independence Talabani still represents much of the Kurdish population
36 BigTom : Absolutely. And if there ever comes a time when, this semi-independent Kurdistan becomes independent, you can expect punitive action from Turkey, Syr
37 ME AVN FAN : in case of Syria, the Kurdish minority is so small that Syria might feel tempted to donate some square-kilometers to Kurdistan, and make whatever tro
38 MD11Engineer : Over the last ten or so years Turkey has relaxed much in relation to it's nationalism. In the past, it was frankly denied that a Kurdish people exist
39 Virgin744 : So, the PKK terrorists have ambushed and kidnapped 8 Turkish soldiers - Irsael went to war with Palestine over 2 soldiers and the world stood by and b
40 Cfalk : So, you are advocating for the US going to war with the Iraqi Kurds?
41 MD11Engineer : One thing: Not so long ago the two major Kurdish parties in Northern Iraq had armed militias each, which were fighting each other. Jan
42 Post contains images Virgin744 : Where, in my statement does it say that I am advocating that!??? Maybe English doesnt read as well as its written in the US? I am saying that theres
43 LAXspotter : Thanks for that Info, appreciate it. that's what Ive noted each and every post here. Double standards clearly exist, and Turkey should piss off the U
44 Cfalk : You are criticizing the lack of active response to go after the PKK. So if you are not suggesting going after them, what exactly are you suggesting?
45 MD11Engineer : It seems that for the Iraqi Kurds the PKK are bastards, but they are "our bastards". Jan
46 Cfalk : Exactly. Theirs is a tribal culture, and in such cultures they stick together.
47 ME AVN FAN : - And the Turks do NOT even threaten to bomb the runways of Baghdad International Airport and all the highway bridges between Basra and Mossul ! Aren
48 LAXspotter : hence double standards, its quite simple. No ifts or buts, that what I've hard from this adminstration for the last 78 months.
49 ME AVN FAN : -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- well, it is not just only double standards.
50 Post contains images Cfalk : I was trying to expose some of the naivety of some on these boards who talk about double standards. When you are allied with 2 peoples who are enemie
51 ME AVN FAN : - There ARE "delicate situations" in this world. Bush however up to now refused ever to recognize that others may have such situations. And quite man
52 Cfalk : That is GENERALLY true. For an established government it is certainly true - they can pretty much do what they want (like Syria or Iran), so there is
53 Emrecan : I am writing here again. Don't mix Kurdish people and PKK please. Last week PKK also killed Kurds who were in Turkish army. In the funeral the mother
54 MD11Engineer : The PKK also has / had the reputation of violently attacking rival Kurdish parties. They want to have the monopoly on Kurdish politics. Jan
55 ME AVN FAN : The US government IS an established government, and does, just as the Syrian one, tolerate a terrorist organisation. In case of Lebanon, it is differ
56 Virgin744 : Nouri al-Maliki, the Iraqi prime minister, sought to placate Ankara. A statement issued by his office said: "The PKK is a terrorist organisation and w
57 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : The main thing for Mr al-Maliki is that he had and has the support of GWB for all this ! I still remember what comments GWB and TonyBlair and many ot
58 Post contains links and images Emrecan : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNg...widget-3a.slide.com/widgets/sf.swf No comment
59 Post contains links Bahadir : This is another reason why I am a big fan of Jon Stewart.. http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/in...&title=aasif-mandvi-turkey-lurking
60 ME AVN FAN : " target=_blank>http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/in...rking That is tremendous ! So that we can say that GWB in fact has given a full justification a
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