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Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies  
User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2378 times:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21578185/

Tibbets had requested no funeral and no headstone, fearing it would provide his detractors with a place to protest, Newhouse said.

RIP. He did what he was told to do, and did it well. I agree that he had to do what he did and I am glad that he was at peace with that.


I am aware that there is currently a thread in military aviation, but I feel that this discussion and Hiroshima envelop so many polemics and subjects that it should be in non-av as well.

[Edited 2007-11-01 11:19:00]

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2296 times:

I would have piloted the mission, if even volunteering, knowing it would have saved American lives.Bottom line! I wouldn't like the horrible loss of enemy life,but this was Imperial Japan, prepared to fight to the last man.This was enemy that did attack mainland US and with intention of chemical weapons and was latter learned that Japan was not far away in creating a dirty bomb. I don't care if the media has good/bad guy ID problem.

Tibbets is a hero! Thanks for your service. RIP
 thumbsup 



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

Well said, PSA53. My father was a 20 yr old soldier in Europe when Germany surrendered in May 1945. He was prepared to be shipped to the Pacific theatre soon after that. When the bomb fell on Hiroshima a few months later, he came home.
Had the bomb NOT been used, he'd more than likely NOT have come home, and I would not be here typing this today.
Paul Tibbets had the foresight to help end the war more quickly than anyone could have imagined at the time. I certainly hope that General Tibbets gets a well-deserved & honorable tribute from the USA at his memorial service.
General, here's a sharp salute from a old soldier's grateful son.  Smile



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8151 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 2):
Had the bomb NOT been used, he'd more than likely NOT have come home, and I would not be here typing this today.



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 1):
I wouldn't like the horrible loss of enemy life,but this was Imperial Japan, prepared to fight to the last man.

Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking.  Yeah sure If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2218 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 2):
Had the bomb NOT been used, he'd more than likely NOT have come home, and I would not be here typing this today.



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 1):
I wouldn't like the horrible loss of enemy life,but this was Imperial Japan, prepared to fight to the last man.

Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking. If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.

I believe I did mention Imperial Japan and not civil Japan.And from 1945 to 2007,your taught Imperial Japan changes to all around good guy,peace loving nation who's WW2 human rights violations aren't even acknowledge?Right! Give me a break.
All points are still very valid in 2007 of Imperial Japan.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2207 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.

Its not just highschool textbooks. History books illustrate that Japan was not ready to surrender and those who say they were are just speculating. Its easy to armchair quarterback, but Iwo Jima was not something the US wanted to take part in. Now, how was the conventional bombing of Tokyo or Germany any different than the a-bomb? In terms of deaths, they are similiar. It was hours instead of a week. Otherwise WWI and WWII were terrible events that should be avoided in the future.

But I WILL NOT second guess past events that are to me genuine in motivation. It is good to investigate the past, but not to condem it on speculation. I have seen the evidence that the abomb was not needed in a few books and to me the argument is lost unless further evidence arrives. Those that are critical are doing so using ambiguous evidence and speculation as support.


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 5):
Now, how was the conventional bombing of Tokyo or Germany any different than the a-bomb? In terms of deaths, they are similiar. It was hours instead of a week.

Very good point.And to take that thought a step further.What if the US did not have the bomb and attacked and invaded Japan by conventional means. Now, they say US causality would have been around 1/2 million or up.But what would Japans final tally been?So,can it not be said the A bomb saved lives on both sides?



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid,

There's the key buddy. Think about that now. You know, critical thinking. Not revisionist history.

RIP Mr. Tibbets.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineRonglimeng From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 625 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2144 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking. If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.

Well, I happen to share the views that you disparage here and while I am not an expert, I don't feel possessed of astounding ignorance.

In your supercilous way you seem to hint that you have knowledge greater than ours. You might have considered sharing it here.

But then, this thread was really started to note the passing of Colonel Tibbets. RIP


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2130 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking. If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.

You care to further explain your point, rather than just speweing this "high school history" stuff, that's only been confirmed through what I've had in military history courses?



RIP Mr. Tibbets. Another one from the "Greatest Generation" departs us.   

[Edited 2007-11-01 19:25:55]

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking. If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.

Those beliefs are historical fact. Japan was not going to surrender. Their fights to the death in the Island-hopping campaign proved that. You're "critical thinking" is nothing but revisionist history, designed to make Japan somehow the "victim" of American imperialism, when in fact Japan had been at war in China for a decade before Pearl Harbor, and that it committed all kinds of atrocities during the period between 1931 and 1945.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 5):
Its easy to armchair quarterback,

Especially 62 uears after tje fact/

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 7):
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid,

There's the key buddy. Think about that now. You know, critical thinking. Not revisionist history.

Exactly.

This thread is about Mr. Tibbits, my God rest his soul. He did his job for his nation, and did it without a second thought. He lived with the results of that attack his entire life, but never once complained or doubted that what he did was right. May he rest in peace. And may all the victims of that war, and of that attack, also rest in peace.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8151 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2101 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
You're "critical thinking" is nothing but revisionist history, designed to make Japan somehow the "victim" of American imperialism, when in fact Japan had been at war in China for a decade before Pearl Harbor, and that it committed all kinds of atrocities during the period between 1931 and 1945.

Imperial Japan was no victim - the average citizen was. I've explained at length in several recent past threads you chose not to respond to. I'm not going to waste time repeating it here when the search function will suffice.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 4):
And from 1945 to 2007,your taught Imperial Japan changes to all around good guy,peace loving nation who's WW2 human rights violations aren't even acknowledge?Right! Give me a break.

I didn't go to school here, I'm an expat resident. Thanks.

The victim culture here has primarily MacArthur's singular absolution of the Showa emperor's war responsibility to blame. CIA-involved installation of a conservative government with deep-seated nationalist elements in the 1950s that remain to this day haven't helped either. The only reason Japanese wartime atrocities aren't given their due here and never will be is because WE swept them under the carpet in the rush to establish a prime Cold War ally in Asia. It didn't need to be done in just that way given the larger ramnifications and to say so is NOT revisionist.

[Edited 2007-11-01 20:01:19]


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2096 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
This thread is about Mr. Tibbits, my God rest his soul. He did his job for his nation, and did it without a second thought. He lived with the results of that attack his entire life, but never once complained or doubted that what he did was right. May he rest in peace. And may all the victims of that war, and of that attack, also rest in peace.

FFS, didn't we just have a long discussion on whether the Bomb ended the war with Japan?

Do we really need another?

Falcon is correct. We should be honoring the memory of BGEN Tibbets, not starting another debate on the use of the bomb.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8151 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2089 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
Falcon is correct. We should be honoring the memory of BGEN Tibbets, not starting another debate on the use of the bomb.

Let it be noted I said in the military av thread on Mr. Tibbets that I think he did his job and did it well. He is not to blame for bullheaded idiocy from Washington.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2084 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
Let it be noted I said in the military av thread on Mr. Tibbets that I think he did his job and did it well. He is not to blame for bullheaded idiocy from Washington.

Only one problem. Washington wasn't guilty of bull-headed idiocy in this case, Aaron. They did the right thing. But enough of this crap from you, OK? Let's keep the threat about Mr. Tibbets, can we?


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2083 times:
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Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking.



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
Imperial Japan was no victim - the average citizen was.

I don't think anyone is questioning that the average Japanese citizen ended up being a victim of their own government. But the point stands that starving and desperate Japanese men defending the islands up to Iwo to the death, and that average Japanese civilians chose death on Saipan rather than surrender. The fact...not theory...remains that any invasion of the Japanese home islands would have resulted in serious fighting and loss of Allied life. If the dropping of the two bombs cut that short, then it saved not only untold Allied lives, but countless Japanese lives from the firebombings that would have continued and the invasion that was on the way.

Stop being so defensive towards the Japanese and remember that the average Japanese schoolbook is known to ignore certain facts that are embarrassing or displeasing where it concerns the past, and that today Japan is one of our three greatest allies and the bulwark to our west.

The bombs were the right thing to do, and General Tibbets was a hero. I am proud to have shaken his hand and offered him my thanks for his service.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2080 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):Falcon is correct. We should be honoring the memory of BGEN Tibbets, not starting another debate on the use of the bomb.
Let it be noted I said in the military av thread on Mr. Tibbets that I think he did his job and did it well. He is not to blame for bullheaded idiocy from Washington.

Why are we discussing the alleged "bulheaded idiocy from Washington" in this thread? Do we really need to, given the fact that we just recently discussed the issue in another thread?


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8017 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

I think people forget that one of the things the Allied forces worried about was that the ENTIRE population in the area would have opposed the landings. The result would have been a bloodbath on both sides on an unimaginable scale.

That's why I am glad that Tibbetts dropped the Bomb on Hiroshima--it helped save us from this inhuman slaughter.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8151 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2015 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
Stop being so defensive towards the Japanese and remember that the average Japanese schoolbook is known to ignore certain facts that are embarrassing or displeasing where it concerns the past

If you think I'm being defensive about the Japanese, you've got it quite wrong. In stories like these, it's only instructive to see things from both sides, and that includes the plight of the civilians here. But in criticizing historic revisionism, it would only be fair to turn your textbook remark back around on what kids learn in our schools as well. Japan's textbook lies are well-known and unparalleled in the developed world, but the environment that spawned them is largely our fault. Read below.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
But the point stands that starving and desperate Japanese men defending the islands up to Iwo to the death, and that average Japanese civilians chose death on Saipan rather than surrender. The fact...not theory...remains that any invasion of the Japanese home islands would have resulted in serious fighting and loss of Allied life.

The only facts regard what Allied planners assumed an invasion would entail. What the first occupying forces found after they arrived here was quite the opposite and is well-documented. Saipan and Okinawa are often cited as examples of what civilians would have done, but are technically irrelevant since Saipan was a military garrison island and had virtually no civilians without IA or IN connections.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Let's keep the threat about Mr. Tibbets, can we?

So be it...except that there's not much to say about the man other than his exceptional performance in his chosen assignment. The only reason his passing is newsworthy is because of the controversy that will forever surround the bombings, which certainly unfairly targeted him and his crew but only continues (and will continue posthumously)because the political victim culture in Japan will never shut up about it thanks to the political circumstances that were erroneously granted to them by none other than we Americans. People who haven't lived here probably aren't aware - but every August there is a massive ceremony in Hiroshima, televised nationally, which inspires both somber peace-loving commentary and fiery right wing rhetoric from nationalists and like-minded WWII apologists. Is there any media or otherwise ceremonial recognition of the actual surrender date? No. And that's a problem folks. That ceremony on the deck of the Missouri was the seminal turning point in this country's modern history and all anyone talks about is Hiroshima.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

Aaron 747...I'm curious about one thing. How is the Japanese population reacting to the passing of Paul Tibbets?
There's the generation that actually witness & lived the war first-hand, and then there's the generations post-war that has read & heard about the conflict...no doubt from the Japanese perspective, as you like to point out. Any media coverage over there regarding this epilogue?



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1985 times:

"Can't blame a soldier that is doing his duty"

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1954 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
If you think I'm being defensive about the Japanese, you've got it quite wrong. In stories like these, it's only instructive to see things from both sides, and that includes the plight of the civilians here. But in criticizing historic revisionism, it would only be fair to turn your textbook remark back around on what kids learn in our schools as well. Japan's textbook lies are well-known and unparalleled in the developed world, but the environment that spawned them is largely our fault. Read below.

I'm interested, and I think Aaron's got a lot to say here if he'd boil it down into a concise paragraph that wouldn't induce post traumatic dyslexia...There is something here to be learned.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1922 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
The only facts regard what Allied planners assumed an invasion would entail.

And what else were they supposed to go off then? Let's assume your argument is right, and the average Japanese citizen would not have "fought to the death", which is already known to be the opposite of what happened during the island hopping.

Those two bombs still saved countless Japanese civilian lives. Those two bombs saved tens of thousands of Japanese soldier's lives. And most importantly, those two bombs saved Allied soldier's lives, which probably was (and as well as it should have been) the Allied planners most important objective.

Aaron, I challenge you to spell out your detailed plan for how you would have ended the war and achieved from the empire of Japan an unconditional surrender AND also how you would have done so with losing fewer lives than were lost at Hiroshima and Nagasaki with the atomic bombs.

Until then, you should probably stop Monday-morning quaterbacking 62 years after the event and criticizing how the US politicians and military leaders ended a war that Japan started.

[Edited 2007-11-02 08:06:19]

User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
You're "critical thinking" is nothing but revisionist history, designed to make Japan somehow the "victim" of American imperialism, when in fact Japan had been at war in China for a decade before Pearl Harbor, and that it committed all kinds of atrocities during the period between 1931 and 1945.

Imperial Japan was no victim - the average citizen was. I've explained at length in several recent past threads you chose not to respond to. I'm not going to waste time repeating it here when the search function will suffice.

One of the ironies of the atomic bombing of Japan is that it was indeed so new that there was a considerable degree of disbelief in the circles that made the life and death decisions in Japan. What they did understand was that the Russian army had cut through theirs in Manchuria like a knife through butter. The reasons for the surrender are not well recorded by those who made them, but some Japanese observers think the Russian advance was the deciding factor.

Put yourself in their position, communications were poor generally by this time, and then there is one plane in the sky and a large city disappears. Unbelievable. Tibbets knew what had been done, but the Japanese did not.

It is sad that he felt that a memorial to him would be too divisive. He carried out the attack he was ordered to make. He deserves respect, it was not he who developed the fission bomb.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8151 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1880 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 21):
I'm interested, and I think Aaron's got a lot to say here if he'd boil it down into a concise paragraph that wouldn't induce post traumatic dyslexia...There is something here to be learned.

My main sticking point is that contemporary accounts on both sides never tell the whole story. On our side, with the facts known today, it's factually and morally bankrupt to repeat statements like 'without the bomb, my grandpa would've died in the invasion and I wouldn't be here today'. What was a reasonable assumption in July of 1945 is now ill-informed conjecture of the past. I have Gens. MacArthur, Eisenhower, Spaatz, and Adms. Nimitz, Leahy and King to back me up.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 22):
Aaron, I challenge you to spell out your detailed plan for how you would have ended the war and achieved from the empire of Japan an unconditional surrender AND also how you would have done so with losing fewer lives than were lost at Hiroshima and Nagasaki with the atomic bombs.

I don't need to - the subject has been extensively explored by writers in this country already. And the general concensus is that an unconditional surrender with the Emperor's status preserved in the eyes of the people wasn't all that hard to achieve so long as his ceremonial legislative authorities remained in place. Washington needed to do two simple things: first - send a clear message that they planned to do just that by supporting Shigenori Togo and his staffers. second - continue the air raids on Tokyo without the previous protections for high-value targets in Marunouchi, Setagaya and Meguro. The latter were the location of the majority of wealthy residences, including war council members. Our intelligence resources in Japan were far from useless, and with the Kempeitai's known activities suppressing anti-war political operatives, putting that organization out of commission would have sealed the deal.

If you read the necessary literature and interviews with Japanese just after the war, you'd find more than enough evidence to support the military's own conclusion that surrender would have been inevitable by the end of the year. Doing all of the above may have led to more deaths than the a-bombs, but the end result would have been 62 fewer years of political baggage and undue sympathy.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 22):
Until then, you should probably stop Monday-morning quaterbacking 62 years after the event and criticizing how the US politicians and military leaders ended a war that Japan started.

Absolutely not. The way we went about ending the war is responsible for the mess that is modern Japan. It's why everyone remembers A-bombs instead of atrocities, empire, and the loss of a generation. It's why the Japanese are by and large still unable to recognize (much less do anything about!) bad leadership. It's why nationalists and war apologists are still given a voice with which to spout their nonsense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai). It's why Hideki Tojo's granddaughter nearly won a district election in Tokyo last year. It's why Japanese under 40 have no concept of their history with a huge blank spot in their textbooks between now and the Meiji restoration. You don't live here so you probably don't care, but those things all mean quite a bit to me.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
25 Baroque : It is indeed curious that wiping out 100, 000 persons with an atomic bomb is somehow worse than killing them with a firebombing raid. I suppose the w
26 Post contains links CALTECH : Read this and others, do not know what is being read or taught. Sounds revisionist. http://www.americanheritage.com/arti...magazine/ah/1995/3/1995_3_
27 Fumanchewd : I fail to see what this has to do with the atom bomb. The same government which established the most progressively liberal government (constitution)
28 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : That's not what I asked chief. I asked you how YOU would have achieved this, since you're so content on Monday-morning quarterbacking, you can explai
29 JAGflyer : The interesting thing was I read the wikipedia page about the bombings and saw his name a few weeks back. I clicked on it thinking he is probably long
30 JCS17 : A great book about Tibbets, the bombing, his life, and his feelings about it is "Duty" by Bob Greene.
31 Post contains links B752fanatic : For all of those who are so sure that it was necessary to drop the bomb, please read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Use-Atomic-Bomb/dp/0679
32 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Yes, several in fact over the last 2 years. No. Spot on. . . . However . . . The thread starter did in fact leave open for debate the subject of the
33 Skywatch : I read this in the news yesterday. His life story was pretty interesting with all the kudos and criticism he received. I had the oppurtunity to see th
34 Halls120 : Amazing, isn't it. Japan started the war, inflicted countless atrocities along the way, and our use of the bomb is the only thing they apparently hav
35 Post contains links Aaron747 : Not revisionist - US Strategic Bombing Survey Report, 1946 http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS-PTO-Summary.html#jstetw Based on a detailed inve
36 Post contains images Fumanchewd : Compare the prewar rights to now. You live there after all. Is it like the Sudan? Maybe you need to get out! Can you deny the differnces in society b
37 Bok269 : RIP General Tibbets. Thank you for your service. I think it is a real shame that this American hero can't be honored with a proper funeral or headston
38 LAXspotter : No, this is the greatness of this society. We dont all of to think the same way. Tibbets was a great Pilot and a Patriot, he did his job, but it is t
39 Fumanchewd : I agree, but the man's gravesite and death should be left alone.
40 Bok269 : I don't have a problem with protests, but there is no reason a hero has to hide for eternity. A grave is sacred and hallowed land. There is no reason
41 Post contains images Baroque : As Bok269 writes, protest is one thing, defacing a grave is entirely different. Perhaps SCOTUS should be asked if that is implicit in the free speech
42 DL021 : no...the environment that spawned that behaviour was well ingrained prior to WWII or Commodore Perry. you ignore that the civilians on the island com
43 BlueElephant : I don't understand how this statement makes any sense at all... Quote from Wikipedia... "As many as 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasak
44 Halls120 : You can't protest somewhere more appropriate? That you apparently think it is acceptable to protest at a person's grave says a lot about you. Tell us
45 767Lover : The search function is worthless. It misses too much stuff. I guess the Rape of Nanking was historical revisionism as well.
46 Aaron747 : What's with all the hyperbole around here? I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort, just asking an open-ended question to counter your know-it-all c
47 Cmhsrq : General Tibbets, thank you for helping end the war so that my grandfather a B17/24/29 pilot at the time only had to bomb the AZ desert and never had t
48 Post contains links GDB : Well, here is a detailed Obit of the subject; http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,,2203765,00.html Frankly, if anyone is revisionist, it is w
49 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Are you freakin' serious. Wow. A man's gravesite is off limits to protesters buddy. Go join the WBC if you believe otherwise. Sick little cretin. The
50 FlagshipAZ : General Tibbets stipulated that his remains be cremated & scattered over the English Channel. He didn't want his grave & tombstone to be "vandalized"
51 GDB : Indeed FlagshipAZ, when I visited the new air museum at IAD in 2004, B-29 Enola Gay, was/is mounted on stilts, to prevent attack. My (Air Net) host ex
52 LAXspotter : youre making it sound like i said it was okay for them to piss on his grave.
53 Halls120 : You did say it was acceptable for people to protest at his gravesite. Do you think the WBC protests are likewise acceptable?
54 FlyDeltaJets87 : If they use "would have" then maybe. If they use "might have" or "probably would have", then no, it isn't. No. It shows how STUPID those protestors a
55 LAXspotter : well good point, I'll agree. BTW, Tibbets was simply the guy who had to do his job, there is a Museum in Hiorshima where one can pay respects to the
56 Aaron747 : Not pissed, just reflecting my initial reservations about spending any length of time on a more detailed reply given your obvious biases and lack of
57 Post contains links Iakobos : May 14 “…I told him (JMC) that my opinion was that the time now and the method now to deal with Russia was to keep our mouths shut and let our act
58 Halls120 : I see you are avoiding the question about protesting at gravesites. Since you did say it was acceptable for people to protest at his gravesite, do yo
59 Aaron747 : Just to be clear, since I didn't touch on this one earlier either - nobody said we need to apologize (and no Japanese have called for it other than t
60 Post contains links B752fanatic : Indeed, I also came to gather all of this data on the book "The decision to drop the bomb" by Gar Alperovitz: http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Use-Atom
61 Post contains images Boeing4ever : You did say it was ok to picket at someone's gravesite or funeral while close friends and well wishers are saying goodbye. You have to be sick to do
62 Post contains links NAV20 : Quite wrong, Iakobos. Large numbers of US and British servicemen - including my own father, as it happens - had been in process of being transferred
63 Iakobos : Nav 20, there is ample documentation on the subjects. The diary of Harry Truman himself is an eye-opener. Japan, at the instigation of the Emperor of
64 Slider : What a great succinct profound statement this is. Kudos. Amen, amen, and Amen. Godspeed General and thank you almost seems trite. Your sacrifices wil
65 FlyDeltaJets87 : I would love to go abroad, but unfortunately, the $$$ situation won't allow me to do so at this time. Aaron, I really want to know what's the differe
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