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Argentina To Join Six Nations?  
User currently offlineOli80 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 685 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1657 times:

I heard on the news this morning that Argentina will be going to the IRB this month to present themselves as candidates to join the Six Nations, and hence turning it into the Seven Nations.

Here's the link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/7084062.stm

Argentina playing their home games in Belgium? Surely not.

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1892 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1644 times:

There was talk on the local media of them playing in Valencia.

I would definitely go and see them, rugby is very pretty much just an University thing here.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1636 times:

Belgium? What kind of a weekend away is that? I don't want to go to bloody Belgium for a Six Nations weekend, I want to go to Spain.  grumpy 

Or BA  Wink

Bring it on, I say. I'd love to see Argentina in the Six Nations. More than that, I'd love to see a proper 2nd division in the Six Nations, with Georgia, Romania, Portugal, and Argentina brought in and then promotion and relegation. Won't happen of course, turkeys don't vote for Christmas.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineJonathan-l From France, joined Mar 2002, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1625 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 2):
More than that, I'd love to see a proper 2nd division in the Six Nations with Georgia, Romania, Portugal, and Argentina brought in and then promotion and relegation. Won't happen of course, turkeys don't vote for Christmas

The IRB is more incestuous than the former French royal family. So you're right, it will unfortunately never happen.


User currently offlineVC10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1412 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1623 times:

The problem with increasing the number of teams from 6 to 7 is that the players will almost end up playing more games for their country than for the club which pays their wages

littlevc10


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1619 times:

Quoting VC10 (Reply 4):
The problem with increasing the number of teams from 6 to 7 is that the players will almost end up playing more games for their country than for the club which pays their wages

The clubs don't pay the wages of all the players. In the case of both England and Ireland, to name but two, the elite players are centrally contracted.

However, it is true that an issue with a Seven Nations is that it lengthens the tournament, with one team always resting on any given weekend. But they can always reduce by one the autumn internationals. They're pretty meaningless anyway.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8467 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

I thought Argentina were looking at joining the Tri Nations comp down here. I think expanding the Super 14 to include teams from Argentina got vetoed due to travel involved.

User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12898 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1603 times:
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Quoting Banco (Reply 2):
More than that, I'd love to see a proper 2nd division in the Six Nations, with Georgia, Romania, Portugal, and Argentina brought in and then promotion and relegation.

Absolutely! If the IRB is truly serious about expanding the horizons of the game, this is the only way to see real progress in the "smaller" teams.

Quoting Banco (Reply 2):
Won't happen of course, turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

You think Wales and Scotland would veto it then? wink  duck 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1599 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
You think Wales and Scotland would veto it then?

Yes. I do.

And for very good reasons from their perspective too.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineOli80 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 685 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
You think Wales and Scotland would veto it then?

You know, to a certain degree, I would actually like to see this happen. It would be extremely embarrassing, but I think the long term effects of spending a year in the 2nd division could only really have a positive effect on the WRU as a whole.

Having said that, the team that prevented us from getting the wooden spoon earlier this year were the English. It was mighty kind of you to let us beat you in that final game!  Wink


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12898 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1596 times:
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Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
And for very good reasons from their perspective too.

Yes, unfortunately.

Maybe one way round this would be to form a "6N Div 2" with the likes of the teams you mention, but delay the spectre of promotion/relegation for two to three seasons. Do you think that would be more palatable?

I must confess I don't know how the governance of the IRB works, can one nation veto proposals? Or could the IRB become significantly more draconian in a unilateral way - scrap the current setup, create the new framework for a Div 1/Div 2, then invite teams to partake?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1892 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 10):
Maybe one way round this would be to form a "6N Div 2" with the likes of the teams you mention, but delay the spectre of promotion/relegation for two to three seasons. Do you think that would be more palatable?

Team that gets the wooden spoon twice in three years has to play a 5-series of matches against 1st team in that year 6N-Div. 2 or face relegation.

Something like that would make relegation extremely unlikely, but the prospects of promotion wouldn't be pretty either.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1585 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 10):
Maybe one way round this would be to form a "6N Div 2" with the likes of the teams you mention, but delay the spectre of promotion/relegation for two to three seasons. Do you think that would be more palatable?

Maybe. But that'd be a bit harsh on a team like Argentina, to be held down artificially for a couple of years when they're better than at least half of the teams in the competition - and by the standards of the last World Cup, better than all bar one.

Quoting Oli80 (Reply 9):
but I think the long term effects of spending a year in the 2nd division could only really have a positive effect on the WRU as a whole.

I wouldn't be especially fearful for Wales were they to be relegated into a Division Two - although it would lose them a lot of money - but I would be fearful for a team like Scotland. Given the fragile nature of the game up there, I would worry they might never come back. Not that that's a reason not to do it, of course.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12898 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1573 times:
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Quoting Banco (Reply 12):
Maybe. But that'd be a bit harsh on a team like Argentina, to be held down artificially for a couple of years when they're better than at least half of the teams in the competition - and by the standards of the last World Cup, better than all bar one.

I certainly don't disagree, but if the alternative is not joining 6N or 3N at all....



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1567 times:
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Quoting Banco (Reply 2):

I think this would be a fantastic idea, getting more national teams involved for more games would be tremendous and watching international rugby has a certain je ne sais quoi that you dont feel in th club rugby. I vote for 2 leagues.

Fred


User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1567 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 2):
Bring it on, I say. I'd love to see Argentina in the Six Nations. More than that, I'd love to see a proper 2nd division in the Six Nations, with Georgia, Romania, Portugal, and Argentina brought in and then promotion and relegation. Won't happen of course, turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Yeah only that Pichot's Argentina are far better than all those other teams .....
 airplane  wave 



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1566 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 15):
Yeah only that Pichot's Argentina are far better than all those other teams .....

Didn't I say just that?  Confused

Quoting Banco (Reply 12):
when they're better than at least half of the teams in the competition - and by the standards of the last World Cup, better than all bar one.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1541 times:

The funny thing is, that this is a show of realism in country renowned for avoiding it at all costs.

Argentina would ideally want to play in the Southern Hemisphere, make no doubts... but in the immediate term the most logical solution would be to play in Europe because of the player base being there. Perhaps this is a intermediate step, until the logistics of developing some proffesional teams into an expanded S14, and a Quad Nations can be set.

On the other hand, the UAR has finally seemed to reach some consensus on introducing (step by step I should add), proffesionalism to Argentine rugby which for 100 years of course has fiercely maintained it's amateur status.

Of course there are always rumours of a remote outside chance of South Africa bolting and joining the 6N plus Argentina, because of time zone advantages, the feeling that the 3N is a bit stale, and also all this talk about changing the rugby rules in the SH to benefit running rugby (league redux some say?), which OZ and NZ advocate. Of course if that ever happened that could mean a big rift developing in the sport, and would leave the Oceania teams out in the cold unless they bring in the islands and Japan.

Being World Champions, the Springboks have a big bargaining power now. And so do the Pumas even with a 3rd place finish. We are seeing that already with the IRB making some concessions about setting up a complete Pro structure in Argentina short term (which is simply not possible, yet).



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1536 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 17):
the feeling that the 3N is a bit stale

I agree entirely.

Quoting Derico (Reply 17):
and also all this talk about changing the rugby rules in the SH to benefit running rugby (league redux some say?), which OZ and NZ advocate

I note that the tide seems to be turning against this to a fair extent. There's a strong suspicion that Australia, for one, are not exactly entirely selfless in advocating changes that have the effect of reducing the importance of forward power - particularly in the light of the their demolition by England (and it would have been at the hands of Argentina, South Africa or France too, had they met them) in the scrum and at the breakdown.

Quoting Derico (Reply 17):
On the other hand, the UAR has finally seemed to reach some consensus on introducing (step by step I should add), proffesionalism to Argentine rugby

Have they now? That's interesting. In one sense it's a shame that Argentina have been kind of forced into it, but on the other hand, all I really want to see is an Argentina (and a Uruguay, for that matter) getting stronger and stronger and stronger. Well, as long as you promise not to beat us at Twickenham again, anyway.  Wink



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7110 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1492 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 6):
I thought Argentina were looking at joining the Tri Nations comp down here. I think expanding the Super 14 to include teams from Argentina got vetoed due to travel involved.

That would make sense, but the thing comes with player avaliability as the Argentinian top teir players play club rugby in Europe. By doing this, they would be similar to the other 6 nations sides in terms of player bases and internationals being played. Its a shame that it could not be on home soil for them but its a start in the reght direction as most of the players live there anyway


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1469 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 18):
There's a strong suspicion that Australia, for one, are not exactly entirely selfless in advocating changes that have the effect of reducing the importance of forward power

It was telling to many that the chorus grew louder rather quickly in the aftermath of the defeat against England in the quarters.

I personally enjoy running rugby, I hope the Pumas for example can play every game like they did against France (2nd match). But I like good kicking when you need it too.

To argentines the scrum and the in-game mauling is the soul of rugby. Maybe we are not right in thinking like that, but we tend to think the pretty finesse plays should be left to argentine football, the drama split second plays to argentine basketball, and the trench warfare to rugby. We love the scrum, sometimes that's all kids play, and of course we have our own scrum called the bajada, which of course is famous in the world rugby. We love to fight it out there, and to work for every centimeter.

Quoting Banco (Reply 18):
Argentina have been kind of forced into it,

Well yes. The IRB somewhat forced it, but this has been the case for 20 years and nothing changed. The ultimate catalyst was the growth in rugby in Argentina in terms of players, and the consistent high level of the Pumas in the last 10 years really. The World Cup performance was just the mechanical actuator. The UAR will meet in a couple of weeks, but it seems to be a given that proffesionalism will be introduced, not fully, but at least start with a base of 60, 70 players for the Pumas, a fully professional Pumas team (the players of course are de facto proffessionals anyway).

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 19):
Its a shame that it could not be on home soil for them but its a start in the reght direction as most of the players live there anyway

That's what it is hoped, that it is a step, not the end goal. It means little to play in international comps long term if the fans can't see it or be part of it. The novelty of playing the 6N will wear down in a few of years quite honestly if people can't ever see them at home. That's why this should be an initial step, and the UAR, IRB and SANZAR too should strive to get what I think most rugby fans now want or at least acknowledge should be done.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24964 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

Would be a great idea IMO, but I thought they were applying for the tri-nations?


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User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12898 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1424 times:
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Quoting Gkirk (Reply 21):
Would be a great idea IMO, but I thought they were applying for the tri-nations?

Argentina would love to join the 3N. Unfortunately, the feeling is less than mutual.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
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