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Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad  
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3360 times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/wo...fea&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Quote:

BAGHDAD, Nov. 7 — American forces have routed Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, the Iraqi militant network, from every neighborhood of Baghdad, a top American general said today, allowing American troops involved in the “surge” to depart as planned.

Maj. Gen. Joseph F. Fil Jr., commander of United States forces in Baghdad, also said that American troops had yet to clear some 13 percent of the city, including Sadr City and several other areas controlled by Shiite militias. But, he said, “there’s just no question” that violence had declined since a spike in June.

“Murder victims are down 80 percent from where they were at the peak,” and attacks involving improvised bombs are down 70 percent, he said.

Note that this story was buried on page 19 of the New York Times.

On the one hand, I don't want to applaud too loudly out of perhaps a superstition of celebrating too early. On the other, I feel like going back into old threads and pulling names of all those peoplewho were saying that everything is lost, the Surge is useless, and we should abandon Iraq immediately.

Comments?

166 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21470 posts, RR: 53
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3358 times:

Ah, it's great when the terrorists among the insurgents carry clearly visible badges saying "Al Quaida" to facilitate their expulsion! That's really considerate of them...! crazy 

User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4699 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3351 times:

Not your personal quote, I know.

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
American forces have routed Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, the Iraqi militant network, from every neighborhood of Baghdad



Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
also said that American troops had yet to clear some 13 percent of the city,

So why do they claim they got them all out of the city, yet they have 13 percent to go...



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineRonglimeng From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 625 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3339 times:

Maybe those rascals have taken a page out of the North Vietnamese playbook, and they're just going to lay low for a couple of years until the Americans go home, then take over?

User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3328 times:

Quoting JRadier (Reply 2):
So why do they claim they got them all out of the city, yet they have 13 percent to go...

"Routing" an enemy doesn't necessarily mean you've "eradicated" them. Literally they're saying they forced Al Qaeda to flee the city.

Also, I just took the article to mean they have to sweep 13 percent more of the city, not 13 percent more of Al Qaeda in the city.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3317 times:

Keep in mind that the article said "Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia". Just because they have al-Qaeda in their name doesn't mean that they're affiliated with Osama's al-Qaeda, or that they are any serious threat.

Not to diminish the importance of hunting down all terror groups, since that is what Iraq needs. And there certainly has been progress in security. But I don't see this as a major breakthrough.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4512 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3317 times:

Well to say that Al Qaeda has been routed out of a certain place implies that you can remove Al Qaeda terrorists in the same way that you can remove trees from a boulevard. That's not to disparage the efforts that the US forces have been making and the successes that have resulted. There does seem to be a decrease in the violence, but the real test is whether the security situation will stabilise in the long term.


PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineB752fanatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 918 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3312 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
On the one hand, I don't want to applaud too loudly out of perhaps a superstition of celebrating too early. On the other, I feel like going back into old threads and pulling names of all those peoplewho were saying that everything is lost, the Surge is useless, and we should abandon Iraq immediately.

And yet 2007 was the deadliest year in US casualties? You think we are doing better over there? These people despise the US more and more every day. We are creating a united and concerted sentiment of hatred towards us.

How would you feel if for example in the Pacific ocean you have instead of a a huge mass of ocean, a continent, lets name it Pacifica continent, in which a country there is called "Pacifica state". The country is thrice the geographical size of the US. Has 3 Billion people, the GDP per capita is 5 times the American, the military is the biggest in the world, has more wealth than the European nations and the US combined, and they are labeled by the US and the vast majority of the world as the "world's police".

Let us think of this, they decide on doing a preemptive attack on the US, because they say that the US is conspiring with a "weapon of continental destruction" That would wipe out the entire Pacifica state if not the entire pacifica continent along with the underdeveloped south pacifica. Yet despite the UN's claim that there isn't such technology in the US for such a weapon, the ruler of Pacifica said that the US has the weapon and also had ties with the terror attacks of the major city of Pacifica city in which 50 thousand people died, and was concluded it was a religious extremist terrorist organization that apparently (Pacifica's claim) received support from the US government.

Pacifica then proceeds and attacks the major cities of the US, killing thousands of innocent civilians with the bombings, and then proceed on invading the US killing vasts numbers of US troops. Then they have victory in decimating the US armed forces and proceed to create a new US government appointed by the Pacifica government. After they depose the government they hang the US president whom was hiding in a bunker, judged and tried after finding that he was a war criminal. After searching for months they find no "weapons of continental destruction" and find no links between the US government and the attacks of Pacifica city, the international community starts to think that the war was because of energy reserves that the US had.

After the people of the US are somewhat OK with removing the despotic regime, they are now waiting for the occupying nation to leave the country and stop with the huge numbers of civilian killings and tortures (pictures appeared of hundreds of American people being tortured in a prison held by the Pacifica's intelligence forces). After the people of the US see the horrors and the atrocities of the war they become united against the occupying force.

Just imagine this, you are driving by the street and then you approach this convoy of diplomats from Pacifica, apparently your car's engine backfired and all of the sudden the convoy mistakes the backfire for gun fire and they begin shooting at you, and all of the cars in the avenue. They kill hundreds of civilians.. and they are a private militia from Pacifica.

How would you feel?

I think that it is always good to think that: "Don't do to others what you won't like to be done to you."



"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4699 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3277 times:

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 4):
Literally they're saying they forced Al Qaeda to flee the city.

which is the same as what I said, "they claim they got them all out of the city", I didn't say anything about eradicating.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 4):

Also, I just took the article to mean they have to sweep 13 percent more of the city, not 13 percent more of Al Qaeda in the city.

Which was my point, how can you say they are routed out, yet you have 13% more to go? How on earth do you know there are not more in that 13%?

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 7):
I think that it is always good to think that: "Don't do to others what you won't like to be done to you."

 bigthumbsup  That is the most sensible thing I've read on this forum about the war in quite some time. No disrespect to you, but I didn't think this could come from an American. You got the problem! Get your flame-suit ready tho....



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 40
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

Yeah but who really deserves most of the credit here, the U.S. military (aka Al-Qaeda-magnet) or the insurgency revolt against Al-Qaeda that has been relatively well reported? Note that they did get some help from U.S. forces, but still.

I don't think the surge may really have anything (or much) to do with it, aside with coinciding in time.

[Edited 2007-11-08 15:32:32]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineB752fanatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 918 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Quoting JRadier (Reply 8):
That is the most sensible thing I've read on this forum about the war in quite some time. No disrespect to you, but I didn't think this could come from an American. You got the problem! Get your flame-suit ready tho....

Believe me there are vasts numbers of Americans that think the same way, and we are not hippies or anything of the sort, the policy of imperialistic expansion by the US has been exposed with the Iraq war. In which false pretexts were used into invading a nation that had not declared war on us, nor to any of our allies.

Not only the idealistic point of view is highly critical of this, but from a economic vantage point, the US can no longer afford such wars nor the actual inflated "defense" budget.



"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3084 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3225 times:

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 7):
And yet 2007 was the deadliest year in US casualties? You think we are doing better over there?

I do. Since the surge began, troops deaths have continued to fall. They are now at a three year low.



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8551 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3223 times:

Wow, Saddam did this years ago. And for doing it, we executed him. I do hope our soldiers do not meet the same fate.

User currently offlineB752fanatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 918 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 11):
I do. Since the surge began, troops deaths have continued to fall. They are now at a three year low.

I am glad that you are happy. I am not just content with any of our soldiers dying. Not even one.



"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8551 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3217 times:

And for another thing, Al Qaeda were brought into Baghdad due to a violent attack on the leadership of Iraq, which resulted in total collapse of Baghdad. Those violent attackers were USA soldiers who were obeying orders of a crazy and delusional US president. In my opinion following those orders was sort of honorable but not heroic. True heroes do not engage in illegal war. They stand up for their constitution instead. True heroes, when they are told to do something illegal, say no.

Our boys are brave and strong, but when America needed one true hero to stop this war -- when the Iraqi people needed someone to save them from the violence of the USA -- there was nobody. This is the story of one of history's saddest failures.


User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3084 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3207 times:

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 13):

I am glad that you are happy. I am not just content with any of our soldiers dying. Not even one.

Nobody should be. I don't support this war any more than you do. However the point is, we're there, and suddenly leaving would just turn things into an even bigger clusterfuck. May as well lower the deaths while we're there.



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5612 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 10):
invading a nation that had not declared war on us

This is the saddest part of the whole thing to me (among many sad and tragic events and actions), that we INVADED another country. Yes I know all the arguments that have been brought to explain it. But plainly and simply we invaded another country that had not attacked us, it had only threatened.... no wait it didn't do that either.... it just puffed up its chest and disregarded the UN, which members of this very administration has described as "anti US" and weak and worthless.

Back to my point, we are the great democracy ever on this planet (or so we think) and we invaded another country outright something we had never done before. (Yes, we have supported overthows, coups, and the like but it was alway behind the scenes which is a somewhat common if unspoken action in this world.)

Tug



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3199 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Maj. Gen. Joseph F. Fil Jr., commander of United States forces in Baghdad,

Quite frankly at this point, I don't believe a word coming from the administration/Army leadership regarding Iraq. I just as soon hear it from the grunts as to what is really happening over there.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3199 times:

Lets see the long term effects of this surge. I dont understand the numbers, apparently the number of US troops are down, but just a couple of days ago I heard that by Nov. 1st of this year, it had already become the deadliest year for American troops. It seems like the insurgents get driven out of a city, only to regroup and gain support in another part of Iraq, it happened in Fallujah, and in Al Anbar province. Until then, we can never be too positive about the future in Iraq, the ongoing violence will continue, secretarianism is even greater in Iraq that ever before, and the country is bound to be in a full fledged civil war, if it isnt already. I think the Troops have done all that has been asked of them, but it seems like a lost cause.


"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineLobster From Germany, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

Quoting JRadier (Reply 8):
No disrespect to you, but I didn't think this could come from an American.

Yeah, because every American thinks the same. Just like all the Dutch are a bunch of pot head, prostitute loving, shroom heads.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3173 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 18):
but just a couple of days ago I heard that by Nov. 1st of this year, it had already become the deadliest year for American troops.

I'm not interested in getting into another debate about Iraq. No one's opinion is going to change. But I just want to make a a point of clarification: The answer is both are true. Yes this was the deadliest year, but charting the causalities on a graph, shows that the first half was very deadly. While the second half featured the dramatic decrease in deaths.

May was the deadliest month this year, and this was when we went on the large offensive against insurgents in Anbar and Baghdad. The sharp decreases followed this new offensive, coupled with the surge. The trick is continuing the success we're having. And most importantly, real progress needs to be made on the political arena inside Iraq.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/UH60PilotIraq/Random%201/Imageaspx.png

-UH60


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
The answer is both are true. Yes this was the deadliest year, but charting the causalities on a graph, shows that the first half was very deadly. While the second half featured the dramatic decrease in deaths.

I see

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
real progress needs to be made on the political arena inside Iraq.

Agreed



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3506 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3134 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 17):

Quite frankly at this point, I don't believe a word coming from the administration/Army leadership regarding Iraq.

They've given you every reason not to.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 17):
I just as soon hear it from the grunts as to what is really happening over there.

Or from Iraqi civilians.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
The trick is continuing the success we're having.

With pre-surge troop levels and an attack on Iran.  pessimist 

It's becoming increasingly difficult for me to get excited about "developments" like this. This war has done potentially irreversible damage to Iraqi society. It has virtually decimated civil infrastructure in the country, created massive external and internal population displacements and done virtually nothing to improve the prospects for peace in the Middle East. There's virtually no plausible post-war (assuming it ends) situation I can think of at this point that would make me concede this war was worth its cost.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3127 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
On the one hand, I don't want to applaud too loudly out of perhaps a superstition of celebrating too early.

Agreed. I am concerened what happens when the forces are deployed out. Will the insurgents get a foothold back into Baghdad? I think, for now, we leave well enough alone, forget about Presidential politics, and leave the troop level where it's at thorugh at last 2008. I fear if we drop the troop levels, the bad guys can get back in.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 7):
And yet 2007 was the deadliest year in US casualties? You think we are doing better over there?

It was John F. Kennedy that said "The cost of freedom is always high, and Americans have always paid it." Achieving something significant militarily, like driving out Al Qaeda from Baghdad, doesnt come at a cheap price. If we are to be successful, and turn the tide for good in Iraq, it will come at a price. We owe it to the Iraqi people.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29800 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3127 times:

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 7):
How would you feel if for example in the Pacific ocean you have instead of a a huge mass of ocean, a continent, lets name it Pacifica continent, in which a country there is called "Pacifica state". The country is thrice the geographical size of the US. Has 3 Billion people, the GDP per capita is 5 times the American, the military is the biggest in the world, has more wealth than the European nations and the US combined, and they are labeled by the US and the vast majority of the world as the "world's police".

Why aren't you just calling this country "CHINA"???

I am not going to put a lot of stock into these numbers, but I do hope that we are on the down-swing.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
25 B752fanatic : What guarantee do we have that we will totally eliminate Al Qaeda from Iraq? If what our presence there only fuels more hatred towards the west. No c
26 Post contains images Baroque : And when the invasion is compounded by a disgraceful attempt at administration of the conquered country, there is a great deal to recover from. It is
27 CF188A : that is political slang for "we are screwed , we need to get out of here soon , and hey .. I will just tell everyone we have captured or killed or dr
28 Falcon84 : Only idiots ask for guarantees in life. There are only two guarantees in life, that you are born, and you die. Those are the guarentees i'll give you
29 Gunsontheroof : It's nice to tell the Iraqi people what we owe them, but it seems the majority of them have wanted U.S. forces out of their country for quite some ti
30 B752fanatic : Man, I tell you, getting involved in the middle east is a very delicate subject, even since Napoleon's conquest of Egypt it has shown that they despi
31 Gunsontheroof : There are too many cards in each side's respective hands there for either of them to get too aggressive. That said, I think the decline of U.S. power
32 Post contains images LAXspotter : , that is something I never understood as If the Iraqis are going to greet Americans with open arms . Most Iraqis, Sunni, Shiite, and even Kurds view
33 Post contains images Baroque : It did not go that well with either Caesar or Mark Anthony come to that. Probably the success of Alexander is exaggerated a bit too as the stories we
34 B752fanatic : Please, I beg you don't be so defensive. I read your comment and you said that liberty has its price, but how long do you think we should be in Iraq
35 Gunsontheroof : One of the objectives of this invasion (and without question the main reason the U.S. stood by while Saddam crushed Shiite uprisings after the first
36 B752fanatic : Exactly!, do you know why? Because in order to become an Empire you ought not to have competition. FDR was to my belief the greatest leader of our na
37 Lobster : Just out of curiosity have you been to Iraq? Have you spoken to an Iraqi who currently lives in Iraq? Or just getting you knowledge from our wonderfu
38 ME AVN FAN : an end to the violence and continual bloodshed and a curbing of extremist movements might be a positive factor to have an end of the US occupation. A
39 UAL777 : If you think that then you are an idiot. The troops are executing a MAJOR strategy shift enacted by Patraeus and it is working. The Iraqi people are
40 Zak : " target=_blank>http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g5...x.png all you can say is that this year has been horrible and there was a month of sub annual a
41 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : it anyway would be Al Qaeda ! or maybe el Qaeda International (Iraq) LLC - and in smaller script : a member of the elQaeda International Group - Not
42 ME AVN FAN : - Not really, they just are realizing that the REALLY evil guys are those "religiously inspired" extremists and that those US-Americans are the lesse
43 Post contains images PC12Fan : Because peace is boring.
44 B752fanatic : Prove to me with statistics what the Iraqi people really feel about us. It is not in your place to think for them in regards to such a subject, no na
45 AGM100 : I spent quite a bit of time in Turkey this year , working with many locals. I did not encounter hatred (Like I do in Germany ,Belgium / France etc.)
46 Post contains images UH60FtRucker : What the hell did I tell you? I posted that chart for clarification for people who were confused... not to initiate another pathetic Iraq War debate.
47 Dougloid : Just as a point of information-assuming that you're really in Greenland as much as I'm in Algeria-what has Greenland done to provide fresh water for
48 Post contains images Lobster : LOL!! Thats the funniest shit I've read all day! After reading that I've realized how big and bad and mean and evil America is!!
49 Post contains images Klaus : He merely relabeled the nations and stayed pretty close to the undisputed facts. So what about the story did you find "pathetic"? An improved capabil
50 Post contains links and images Baroque : I guess it is a lame little analogue to a crippled piece of foreign policy. Fair match perhaps. The interview with the Iraqi journalist on Thursday 8
51 ME AVN FAN : here a text from the ARD : Stimmt es nicht, dass der irakische Norden, wo sich laut Regierungsangaben Al-Qaeda-Kämpfer verstecken sollen, von unsere
52 Klaus : If you say so... but that's normally an incorrect use of the "Q" in german... It should be a "K" in that case.
53 JRadier : You are absolutely right and I apologize for my wording. I actually wanted to say that I would expect a statement like this one more from a European
54 B752fanatic : It is not funny, nor a "lame little story", its a fictional account based on a true story. Of which we are living today.
55 Post contains links NoUFO : The article the thread starter quotes has to be seen against the background of this commentary on internal religious and ethical displacements. The "s
56 UAL777 : I think it might be because I was in the Marines and I know what is going on. If you want hard evidence go look at insurgent deaths, because almost a
57 ME AVN FAN : - it is not the German "Q", it is a kind of "K" which is intonated far back in the throat, and so a different consonant, whenever similar to the "K".
58 Klaus : Then a better choice would indeed be "K", "Kh" or "CH"... in this particular case It's usually spoken (and sometimes written) as a "K" in german anyw
59 ME AVN FAN : - "ch" is negative in French, Kh is often used in the transliteration. A good transliteration into German would in fact be "al-Kha'iida".
60 UH60FtRucker : Bullshit. It was a silly fictional story that was overly simplistic, and totally devoid of the complexities of the actual situation you were thinly p
61 Flighty : Thank you, B752, for your hilarious (and very true) moral equivalency story. The USA has truly done something awful. Now, our Dollar is collapsing and
62 Klaus : He never claimed it to be anything but a selective paraphrase of the Iraq situation to put americans into the perspective of iraqis today. Your own p
63 Maverick623 : How quickly people forget what happens when an occupying force just ups and leaves an unstable country. The Soviets in Afghanistan anyone? And yet th
64 B752fanatic : It is not silly, it is based on true accounts, can you deny them? Ok answer for me this question: Are you wiling to embrace a foreign nation to invad
65 Flighty : Oh, I agree. We will still be capable of high income. It's our savings and asset that we have sold off. Without knowing it we just gave away $1 trill
66 B752fanatic : Exactly!! my feelings exact! I am quite sure that UH60FtRucker would think the same, but I have a feeling he wouldn't want to prove my point by sayin
67 UH60FtRucker : No I am not going to answer any of your lame questions. You wrote all of that drivel for nothing. All of the bitching in this thread is OLD NEWS. Not
68 Klaus : You're setting a threshold which you yourself have a hard time of getting across as well. He was simplifying as much as you are - and neither you nor
69 Post contains images UH60FtRucker : No way. It was a lame story. All it was, was a rehashing of his tired and worn out agenda. America, bad. President Bush, bad. Iraq War, bad. Muslims,
70 B752fanatic : Very well, I would ask you from an American to another American, would you accept a foreign country invading your country for the same reasons we wer
71 JRadier : good to see we're arguing here based on statements and not on a personal level. While you might be older than me, please, grow up!
72 ME AVN FAN : - You forget that the regime of President Najibullah proved to be amazingly stable, and only got conquered by the Fundamentalist opposition thanks to
73 Maverick623 : Not as different as you might think. History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme. You jump to conclusions: I am suggesting where we go from here
74 LAXspotter : I have continued to state that. It's sad how the Arabs were lied to in one of history's most abhorrent lies. After the Arabs fought bravely against t
75 Post contains images Zak : a good description for what happens these days in iraq how iraq will all of a sudden start improving is also an old, repetetive fairy tale. i'd say i
76 Post contains images Baroque : UH60 has, alas, ruled out most of those who have posted. I notice that his claims of the rest of a.net having wild, unrealistic, extremist even, view
77 MD11Engineer : Back then the other countries were similarly affected. Germany e.g. had just partially recovered from the great inflation after WW1. Today it might l
78 Post contains images RJdxer : YAWWWWNNNNN........Nope, not much has changed here. Surprisingly enough, that is exactly how Speaker Pelosi and majority leader Reid have their fundin
79 Santosdumont : So why not keep a good thing going and remove the House of Saud while GWB is at it?
80 B752fanatic : Interesting, so you would let on the eyes of another nation decide and say that your ruler is a "dictator"? thus he is to be removed by a foreign cou
81 Baroque : You cannot go on relying on the work that Marshall and McArthur did and as Klaus, Aaron and I keep pointing out the conditions in post invasion Germa
82 Klaus : Baroque, thank you for your excellent responses above. Not much more needs to be said from my point of view. UH, I must say I'm a little troubled abou
83 B752fanatic : Now, comparing WWII Germany and Japan with 2003 Iraq, that is priceless!! and I am being criticized for using my example of "Pacifica" for the US. It
84 RJdxer : If you are trying to paint Saddam Hussein as anything other than brutal dictator who ruthlessly enforced his rule, you are a fool. If such a person e
85 Post contains links Baroque : If the Iraqis object (which they do), doing so after it has been done will be too late. Hence plans such as those listed below are a major source of
86 DL021 : Here's what I notice.....people who's political views dominate their ability to logically deal with reality tend to rationalize everything they read a
87 JRadier : While I won't compare Sadam to George, I think it's not as black and white as it looks. While the US citizens enjoy a lot of freedoms the US has a lo
88 Post contains images B752fanatic : I really think he was as monstrous as they painted him. No doubt, but why we only pick him when there are dozens like him? doesn't make any sense to
89 JRadier : I won't go into your arguments, I think others would be better at that. I must say that the part I quoted above was pretty good. However, after that
90 Post contains images DavestanKSAN : Another great post Ian . There are some things I disagree with, but overall I think you hit the nail right on the head. After UH gave us his report l
91 Baroque : About the only replies that seem suitable involve advising Hitler how to come to a better accommodation with Petain. The early errors were grievous,
92 Zak : i do? news to me. i love many aspects about the usa, but i have to admit that i am pretty much in line with bill maher on most "USA issues", so i mig
93 Santosdumont : So why did Ronald Reagan send Donald Rumsfeld of all people to shake the guy's hand? Why did the United States bankroll Sadam's war with Iran and pro
94 NoUFO : Rubbish. Name one person who does not wish to see a stable and democratic Iraq, not to mention that Europe is a lot closer to the Middle East that th
95 NoUFO : Very true, but I can see why Klaus feels so uncomfortable reading UH60's recent posts. It may just be that threads like this can be tiresome to no en
96 Post contains links RJdxer : The first link goes 404. The second link actually makes sense for the Iraqis. If they want to get immediate money out of their oil reserves, signing
97 Post contains images JRadier : While I am no expert on US legislation (nor do I want to be), some I can think of at 1 in the morning: passenger blacklist, easier wiretaps (without
98 RJdxer : Flying on a plane is not a "right". If it were airlines would not be able to charge money to board. The "easier" wiretaps only include those made to
99 Flighty : Sure it is, as long as reasonable security is followed. It is the same as walking around freely... or driving in your car freely. Airlines can deny p
100 RJdxer : Are you insane? Really, I have to ask. Walking around freely is a right. Driving a car is a privilege. If you don't have the money to afford insuranc
101 DL021 : I not only don't propose that anyone suspend criticism, but I encourage it. Constructive criticism is much more useful than bitching based on sketchy
102 DavestanKSAN : Agreed in principal, although I'm afraid I don't have as much faith in the Iraqi government. I just haven't seen the progress being made by the Iraqi
103 ME AVN FAN : - Wrong, I am and have always been a staunch and definite friend of the USA. But I absolutely and totally oppose the US-lead occupation of a major Ar
104 Post contains links Baroque : Somehow I fouled up the link while trying to be economical on lines. Try http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2132569.ece " The US
105 RJdxer : Because in order to get the oil pumping and moving through the pipelines again they are going to need the oil companies help. I don't understand wher
106 Queso :
107 Baroque : Partly because I (and the Iraqis) know how oil companies work out their costs. If an item sourced externally costs USD100, a rough rule of thumb is t
108 JRadier : YOU do not feel you have lost any rights, yet people that are on that blacklist (and loads without an obvious reason) do! So they lost part of their
109 Wingnut767 : Nice one Queso. You made my day!!!!!!
110 CALTECH : Great Video Queso, you made my week !!!! F**k YEAH !!!
111 Post contains images B752fanatic : Oh yes, since the Iraqi government can't do it, we need to hire these guys: Are those graphs short of reality or a FANTASY as is Pacifica? Isn't it s
112 Wingnut767 : Thanks for the Stock graph. It shows right when I bought my shares. Can you name any other companies that are in the Business that HAL is in and that
113 CALTECH : They have had hatred towards the 'west' since history was recorded, written accounts recall the Persians tried to conquer Greece long before any 'wes
114 Klaus : It's this kind of ignorance about history that pushes you from failure to failure these days. Actually, the more aggressive stance towards "the west"
115 ME AVN FAN : - Persia is the Iran of today. And the Persian-Hellenic conflicts were not results of hate from either side but simply the rivalry of two of the lead
116 ME AVN FAN : - the victory of the Islamic Mudjahideen under commanders like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar against the government of President Najibullah, on of the more dec
117 Post contains images ANCFlyer : It's an old question, asked a dozen - couple dozen - times by you, myself and others . . . that remains unanswered. It's easier to piss and poan abou
118 Post contains images Wingnut767 : Nice try. Why is it when the Christians tried to re take their holyland they are the bad guys. The Crusades to the East were in every way defensive w
119 CALTECH : Oh the great santa has spoken with name calling. Did you ever study history, obviously not,.............. Actually, unlike some uneducated ones here
120 Santosdumont : So then why did Reagan arm Sadam and then send an autographed bible along with a care package of missile launchers to the Ayatullahs? Did he find som
121 Fumanchewd : Well, looking at the photos, I am glad that we can all agree that Bush is very conscious of some of the damages of this war. It would seem that he kn
122 Wingnut767 : Amen Brother. To me it is disgusting that B752fanatic should use those pics on Veterans day to use forhis propaganda. You cannot say you support the
123 RJdxer : Then what you are really doing is just showing a national bias or even more correctly, an anybody but the USA bias. You are completely free to do so
124 Fumanchewd : Well, I would say that there are many who would support our armed forces but disagree with the premesis of the war. In doing that, they acquiesce to
125 Post contains links and images Emirates773ER : Just when I thought that there could possibly be no more BS on Anet that could actually surprise me, here come two members calling the crusades "holy
126 Baroque : Not even close, you seem blissfully unaware that two of the four largest oil companies are not based in the USA. I am not exactly against big oil per
127 Klaus : What's that got to do with anything? Both the "christian" and the "muslim" forces were occupators in Palestine. With the "christians" ravaging the co
128 Wingnut767 : I must have forgotten how to read. Can you show me in these two posts where we said that the crusades had been "holy" And are you denying that the Mu
129 JRadier : Please correct me if I'm wrong (with a source would be nice), but this is what I know about the blacklist: -It is not public, nor is it possible to f
130 Post contains images Klaus : Palestine was as much "holy" to muslims as it was to jews and christians. I'm sure you just accidentally omitted that. Nor did the islamic rulers com
131 Post contains images B752fanatic : There isn't a single once of doubt that there are a far lot of American companies doing business in post Saddam Iraq. The question is: So that we cou
132 Baroque : Probably, but then it is very difficult to work through the double negatives to find what your proposition might be. Don't you think you might not ag
133 Post contains links RJdxer : Read your history. The arms for hostages deal was done behind his back. Adm Poindexter is the person you want to blame for that. If you were to deny
134 LAXspotter : I guess he is going to defend the actions of the Christians till he dies. People like him with their Christian Revisionist history listening to "Scho
135 Wingnut767 : Yeah it was pretty convenient of them to plant their holy site right in the middle of the Christians and on top of the Jews sites. An accident I thin
136 Emirates773ER : Don't play around the bush, read your post and ask yourself what were you trying to portray in them which quite a few on this forum figured out. I am
137 LAXspotter : It was an Arab ruler than allowed the Jews to live in Jersualem and maintain their community there. Sad to say, but the Crusaders massacred Orthodox
138 Post contains images Klaus : And of course the evil, evil muslims were the only ones to ever use religion as a pretense for power politics, weren't they? You're so single-mindedl
139 Post contains images Allstarflyer : What a lovely thread, from Haliburton to the crusades to Bush 41. Lots of history and good times here! Privileges and rights are not synonymous by any
140 Fumanchewd : You really need to take some history classes. Egyptians? Romans? Ever heard of them?[Edited 2007-11-11 16:50:12]
141 Post contains images Wingnut767 : So the Muslims invaded and conquered Jersusalem and all of the countries to the Iberian Peninsula without any bloodshed After they conquered them the
142 Post contains images Klaus : I pointed you towards verifiable history. I'm sorry if you've had an unrealistic view of the crusades before. It does suck when reality is not on you
143 LAXspotter : yes, but we're talking in context of the Common Era, and Religious persecution by Christianity and Islam. How did Islam spread to Indonesia, 200 mill
144 Fumanchewd : Ah, new developing parameters I see. Considering that the Common Era is everything after the birth of christ, it could be somewhat difficult to name
145 Wingnut767 : How do you equate into I was speaking of the Germanic peoples propensity as a whole for War , Barbarianism, Conquest and Imperialism. And that was all
146 LAXspotter : Okay, before this thread gets locked. Allright, back on Topic, what are we supposed to feel if Al Qaeda is driven out?
147 Klaus : It's a hardly veiled personal attack, and a particularly lazy attempt at a cop-out. I'm not buying either, however. Plus it's another blatant overgen
148 ANCFlyer : Good Idea . . . .
149 LAXspotter : seriously, we get pieces of "news" that tells us one thing, and 2-3 days later we get another piece of news.
150 ANCFlyer : My personal non-mod perspective: The News Sucks. They Suck. They get 99% of their crap WRONG. If I want to know what's going on in Bahgdad I'm going
151 Post contains images LAXspotter : yeah, okay
152 Post contains links CALTECH : Someone is so full of BS himself that it is quite sad. Point out where the 2 posters you referenced said the 'crusades' were holy, oh, let me answer
153 LAXspotter : wow, we can digress as much as we want, this thread is going to get locked. BTW, what does my background have to do with anything?
154 ANCFlyer : Last Warning in this thread: Stick to topic. Baghdad and Al Queda . . .
155 Emirates773ER : LOL! You are telling me about my own history? While supporting a bunch of cannibalistic and barbarian thugs who marched all the way to Jerusalem beca
156 Emirates773ER : Oppssss... too late, already made the post. Sorry.[Edited 2007-11-11 18:22:53]
157 Post contains images Baroque : Ah, I see, you fall for that line do you. Who on earth do you suppose managed to produce up to 3.489 mmbo/d (1979)? It was the Iraqis. The best "help
158 Post contains links RJdxer : I am a proud veteran of the U.S. Army. 4 years as an Airborne Ranger 2 with the 1/75th at HAAF in Savannah and 1.5 as a Ranger Instructor at the 1st
159 ME AVN FAN : even if Persians hated Greece and Greeks hated Persia, it was not "East" against "West", it was two superpowers of those days in rivalry. Persia also
160 Fumanchewd : OK. I have to say that Islam was as much an empire as any christian empire. The crusades were diabolicall in many ways, mostly in which christians fun
161 ME AVN FAN : - It is a matter of words chosen. Arab companies are buying up companies in Western Europe, such as SRtechnics belonging to a UAE-consortium (Abu Dha
162 RJdxer : So are fundamentalist Christians, yet how many have tried to kill other people simply because they made a cartoon featuring Jesus? The Inquisition wa
163 Klaus : Christianity has been defeated by secularization since the Renaissance. If it hadn't been, the pope would still be be issuing death sentences against
164 Santosdumont : Or so the Reagan apologists would like to have us think...it wasn't Poindexter's John Hancock on the Bible, dude. Fair enough, but you can't tell me
165 Baroque : Yes is was prior to that war, but so what? Looks to me that UN sanctions and all, the Iraqis were doing rather better by themselves without any weste
166 ANCFlyer : Can't stick back on target . . . We're done here.
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