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Why Is Socialism A Bad Word In US Health Care?  
User currently offlineMbj-11 From Jamaica, joined Aug 2000, 386 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4638 times:

If you haven't guessed the reason behind the thread yet.........lemme tell you. I watched "Sicko" by the infamous Mr. Moore. I have heard the rants behind the film as being propaganda or anti-American, but from a human and god-fearing perspective.......what was shown is just plain wrong. I mean, profits over people in health care? I don't need to be lectured about the whole system of money for drugs or thats just the way things are........no. That is just plain wrong. What happened to those people and many others could happen to anyone, and yet its propaganda?
There needs to be coverage for every and anyone who is sick. We all walk on the same ground and breathe the same air, so why is a system "paid for " by mostly the poor who have to pay taxes is then denied by silly arguments? Maybe socialism isn't as bad in health care as some purport it to be. Or am I to be added to the list of the "been had" by Michael Moore?


Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
116 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineToast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4625 times:

The thing is, Americans have a very different use of the word "Socialism" than the rest of the world does. "Socialist" or "Communist" is essentially used to label non-profit and high-cost activities engaged in by the government, except defense. If it's funded with taxes and is free to use by everyone, then it's socialist.

Unfortunately, the fear of Communism being a still-alive remnant of the Cold War, anything that gets labeled with the word is automatically rejected as evil, even if it's obvious it isn't. Of course universal health care stems from the same Marxist ideals as universal suffrage, worker's rights, and trade unions. But while no-one considers those three as Communist foibles anymore, there is still the odd perception in the US that universal health care is some sort of government scam to take from the rich and give to the poor something the poor don't deserve. Many Americans will justify this by saying that the government can't be trusted with managing anything, and that health care for everyone wouldn't give taxpayers a lot of value for their money. They have a point - no-one wastes money as recklessly as a government. However, the US still is the richest country on earth - not by GDP per capita or many other economic indicators, but by the sheer amount of accumulated wealth and by the size of its federal budget. The US could afford good and free health care for its citizens if it wished to, but it's clear that Washington will rather waste money on wars, border fences, and assorted bullshit that pleases the crowds but is completely pointless. Fortunately, many people in the US are beginning to realize that their taxes are already being thrown out of the window on stuff that does absolutely no good for the country. I'm sure the US will eventually wake up and join the evil Commies in Europe and Japan who would rather their governments throw money at things that help people, not corporations...


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4613 times:

Quoting Toast (Reply 1):
The US could afford good and free health care for its citizens if it wished to, but it's clear that Washington will rather waste money on wars, border fences, and assorted bullshit that pleases the crowds but is completely pointless.

WAY off the mark here Toast.

Between Vietnam and Desert Storm, we could have afforded health care also . . . before a border fence was ever discussed. So this entire line of thought from you is utter  redflag  - just another bash at the DC Gov't . . .

Wanna put it in the proper perspective, how about this: We could afford National Health Care IF the drug companies didn't have so many politicians in their hip pockets, if the profits from health care weren't so high, IF we'd quit sending TRILLIONS of dollars to every piss ant country on the globe that cried foul or help,

To blame the lack of national health care on the war and border fences is disingenuous and - well - inaccurate. Period.

Quoting Toast (Reply 1):
Fortunately, many people in the US are beginning to realize that their taxes are already being thrown out of the window on stuff that does absolutely no good for the country

Some of us figured that out a long time ago Toast . . . lets quit funding all this overseas  redflag  and keep that $$$ here. Lets get our own country in order before we spend TRILLIONS elsewhere trying to help some POS third world nation that won't help themselves . . .


User currently offlineToast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4598 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Between Vietnam and Desert Storm, we could have afforded health care also . . . before a border fence was ever discussed.

Very true, ANC. Nowhere did I say it couldn't be done before. Nothing at all to do with the current government.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
We could afford National Health Care IF the drug companies didn't have so many politicians in their hip pockets, if the profits from health care weren't so high

True as well.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
IF we'd quit sending TRILLIONS of dollars to every piss ant country on the globe that cried foul or help,

Which "piss ant country" did the US help with trillions of dollars? Does Iraq, Grenada, Nicaragua, Panama, Vietnam, Korea count as aid? If you mean actual foreign aid and charities, I don't know if it can really be measured in trillions... but

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
lets quit funding all this overseas BS and keep that $$$ here.

We may disagree on what constitutes foreign funding, but I agree wholeheartedly that America has overstretched its resources all over the planet for far too long. Spending the money that seeps out of the country on what the country needs itself has to be done asap. And even then lots of funds for true foreign aid would remain. Europe and Japan spend proportionally quite a bit of money on foreign aid, and they can afford universal health care nevertheless.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
To blame the lack of national health care on the war and border fences is disingenuous and - well - inaccurate. Period.



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
just another bash at the DC Gov't . . .

ANC, just because I (and most people in the world) can't stand the current DC government doesn't mean that you should see primitive US-bashing in all my posts. I cited Iraq and the fence as an example of bullshit spending, not as the reason behind America's financial woes. It's quite obvious those are a drop in the ocean of federal waste.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4575 times:

Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
Very true, ANC. Nowhere did I say it couldn't be done before. Nothing at all to do with the current government.

 checkmark 

Noted.

Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
Which "piss ant country" did the US help with trillions of dollars?

Collective piss ant countries, not a single specific country. Take your pick . . .

Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
We may disagree on what constitutes foreign funding, but I agree wholeheartedly that America has overstretched its resources all over the planet for far too long. Spending the money that seeps out of the country on what the country needs itself has to be done asap. And even then lots of funds for true foreign aid would remain. Europe and Japan spend proportionally quite a bit of money on foreign aid, and they can afford universal health care nevertheless.

Agreed.

The whole infrastructure of Japan, IMO, is in far better shape than that of the US. And most of Europe as well. Because time is taken to ensure, IMO, their own back yards get cleaned up before spending money elsewhere.

Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
If you mean actual foreign aid and charities, I don't know if it can really be measured in trillions... but

I would say so . . .

And I'm talking about the whole shooting match . . .

South Korea, Egypt, Israel, Russia, pick one. Now, noting of course, those aren't piss ant countries . . . (thought I'd toss that in there before you did).

I think we probably agree on more things than not on this topic. I just think our roadmap for getting there is way different.


User currently offlineToast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
The whole infrastructure of Japan, IMO, is in far better shape than that of the US. And most of Europe as well. Because time is taken to ensure, IMO, their own back yards get cleaned up before spending money elsewhere.

I don't know about Japan, but I can't deny that Europe with its huge healthcare and welfare spending isn't a garden of roses, either. I think the ideal way lies somewhere between the USA's economic liberalism and culture of self-reliance and Europe's costly and economically stifling culture of expecting government hand-outs in times of trouble. Some balance must be found, otherwise Europe will be crushed by taxes and the US will face lower life expectancy and lower living standards. As you say, everyone needs to clean their back yards first. What worries me about the US is that there are few signs of that happening as yet.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
I think we probably agree on more things than not on this topic. I just think our roadmap for getting there is way different.

 yes 


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4504 times:

If there wasn't a profit potential, why would any private enterprise invest billions of dollars in speculative R&D in order to develop new prescription drugs? The market works because it rewards risk takers. Take away the reward and you take away the incentive to take risk.

User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8037 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4475 times:

Because look at the biggest problem with socialized health care: rationing. Why do you think a lot of Brits and Canadians are showing up in the USA to get surgery, mostly because they can get the surgery in a far more timely fashion than in the UK and Canada?

User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3093 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
We could afford National Health Care IF the drug companies didn't have so many politicians in their hip pockets, if the profits from health care weren't so high

 checkmark  And lawyers should be included, especially those who prey and encourage inflated auto insurance claims.Their not all innocent either with their own lobbyist groups.

Socialism,to me, is not a bad word when comes to health insurance.When you have 42 million plus americans without insurance coverage this system needs wholesale changes. To these people,living in fear, that if an health issue happens to them or their family,the American dream just became an American nightmare with the possibility becoming financially condemn for the rest of their lives.

I'm paying insurance straight out of my pocket.And each year,it gets raised.I'm wondering when I can't afforded it anymore.So, I'm in favor a partial or full assistance.

Politicians need to stop giving away all of our assets to outside interests and start re-investing into the American taxpayer.

Off-topic: Pope:Thanks for your recomendation on Sling-Box.Works great.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4459 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 6):
If there wasn't a profit potential, why would any private enterprise invest billions of dollars in speculative R&D in order to develop new prescription drugs? The market works because it rewards risk takers. Take away the reward and you take away the incentive to take risk.

This encompasses part of the rub (a good part). The entrenched Capitalistic forces here in the US love to hear the "S" word, because they can prey upon the uneducated lemmings who don't realize that Capitalism is why we have identity theft, why I got a credit card in the mail last month for which I did not apply, and if delivered to the wrong address, would be in the hands of some other person. Rant over on that.

Socialised medicine might work, but the opponents point toward OTHER countries, who are not based on our system, and say it won't work. Well, if you won't let it try to work in OUR system, how the hell do you know it won't? Or is it that rich people can't accept the fact that wealth in a Capitalistic system will always form a normal distribution (a bell-curve for you challenged on statistics), so no matter how much the poor come up, the pay-scale will adjust to render the next level as poor.

We need equal health care for all legal citizens, and we also need to foster medical research and good pay for physicians and nurses. The two need not be mutually exclusive, even if some of you can't understand that.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8976 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4452 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 8):
I'm paying insurance straight out of my pocket.And each year,it gets raised.I'm wondering when I can't afforded it anymore.So, I'm in favor a partial or full assistance.

Blame the HMOs and what you and ANC already said.

The U.S. may not have a socialized system, but it has the "government managed" part of that system and it is distorting the market, curtailing competition, and of course, the one who really passes legislations are the corporation's lobbyists and corrupt politicians and they aren't going to lobby something that is "people over profit". Of course they give it a catchy name, sort of like the "Patriot Act," so if you vote against it it makes you look bad.

The solution is to take politician's fingers out of health care. That's the only way to kill the lobbyist and have real competition.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4420 times:

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
so why is a system "paid for " by mostly the poor who have to pay taxes is then denied by silly arguments?

I don't understand why you say the system is mostly paid for by the poor. Please elaborate.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 8):
When you have 42 million plus americans without insurance coverage this system needs wholesale changes.

These numbers are not qualified. There are millions who are eligible for Medicaid (the US publicly funded system) but have not enrolled. There are a number of reasons for this.

I will say this: If my mother, who is British and has moderate to late-stage Alzheimer's, had remained in the UK, she would probably not be faring as well as she is today being treated in the US Medicare system. The NHS denies many early-stage treatment options for Alzheimer's patients. In addition to not having access to as many drug options, I was also surprised to learn that dementia patients in the UK are all but left in the cold when it comes to continuing care from the NHS. I thought the system took care of those who couldn't take care of themselves?

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
I mean, profits over people in health care? I don't need to be lectured about the whole system of money for drugs or thats just the way things are........no. That is just plain wrong.

And yet, the reason my British mother would have been denied effective Alzheimer's drugs in the UK system in the early stages of her disease is because of "value for money." Yep. It's "not profitable" for NHS to include them in the plan. Kind the same thing, isn't it?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6939950.stm


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4393 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 10):
Of course they give it a catchy name, sort of like the "Patriot Act,"

The next one will be the "Mom and Apple Pie Against Pinko Commies and Terr'rists Act" (regardless of what it actually legislates for)  Smile


User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Health Care doesn't work as a socializable system.
The fundamental reason. is that the people and the companies working in it want to be rewarded for their hard efforts.

Doctors want to be rewarded for being more skilled,
Pharmacies want to be rewarded for producing new drugs,
Hospitals want to be rewarded for better care and new treatments that help us all.


The money has to come from somewhere. The biggest problem in US healthcare right now is Insurance and Lawyers.

However at a somewhat sophisticated level it is starting to level out. Companies can no longer afford to fully subsidize employees plans, Minute clinics are being opened at Pharmacies.

The minute clinics are great for people not wanting to sit at a hospital for hours to get eardrops for an ear ache, penicillan for an infection, or some special cold medicine. This will free doctors to help people with more severe and acute issues in hospitals.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4382 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 13):
Health Care doesn't work as a socializable system.

And yet somehow it does. Funny that.


User currently offlinePAHS200 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4378 times:

Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
I cited Iraq and the fence as an example of bullshit spending

yeah, because spending money to keep us safe, is bullshit  Yeah sure

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 11):
Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
so why is a system "paid for " by mostly the poor who have to pay taxes is then denied by silly arguments?

I don't understand why you say the system is mostly paid for by the poor. Please elaborate.

yeas, please do.. last time i checked the wealth were the ones being taxed the most


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4372 times:

Quoting PAHS200 (Reply 15):
spending money to keep us safe

Safe from what ? Iraqi's ? Fruit pickers ? Geez, you're easily scared.  Smile


User currently offlinePAHS200 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4359 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 16):
you're easily scared.

no, your just blind  Wink

illegals from Mexico have really caused problems in the west and south where they create a lot of crime. So yes if you live in those areas you should be scared


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5052 posts, RR: 44
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4351 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 7):
Because look at the biggest problem with socialized health care: rationing

Why do people insist on continuing to repeat this ridiculous fallacy? I think I've corrected this in pretty much every single discussion on health care on a.net in the last few years, and with every new discussion, it's brought up YET again.

So I'll repeat it once more (no doubt to no avail, as in the next discussion, it'll be brought up again, likely even by the same people): waiting lists or 'rationing' as you call it, are NOT problems that are inherent to universal or 'socialized' health care. There are some countries that have waiting lists, like the UK and Canada, but there are many more that don't. If those countries have waiting lists, it is because of the way they decided to implement universal healthcare, not because they have u.h. My own country has universal healthcare, and we have no waiting lists. None. We are even one of the countries the Brits come to for surgery they have to wait for at home.

Quoting Pope (Reply 6):
If there wasn't a profit potential, why would any private enterprise invest billions of dollars in speculative R&D in order to develop new prescription drugs? The market works because it rewards risk takers. Take away the reward and you take away the incentive to take risk.

Then explain the rest of the Western world.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 13):
Health Care doesn't work as a socializable system.
The fundamental reason. is that the people and the companies working in it want to be rewarded for their hard efforts.

Funny, because the rest of the western world disagrees, and even shows it DOES work...


User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4351 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Some of us figured that out a long time ago Toast . . . lets quit funding all this overseas and keep that $$$ here. Lets get our own country in order before we spend TRILLIONS elsewhere trying to help some POS third world nation that won't help themselves . . .

You have just spoken my thoughts to the T. Welcome to my respectred users list and I will buy you a beer at hear tonight when I getr to the pub!



There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4350 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 14):

And yet somehow it does. Funny that.

If I have a cold,
Socialism is fine, Every dipidy dot that went to nursing school or med school can diagnose it.

if I want cutting edge surgery or a solution to a life threatening illness, I would much rather be in a capitilized system with the best docs and meds.


Socialism suffers from the same problem as Communism, Just good enough for most people, isn't necessarily great for all people.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineMbj-11 From Jamaica, joined Aug 2000, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4339 times:

Quoting PAHS200 (Reply 15):
Quoting 767Lover (Reply 11):
Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
so why is a system "paid for " by mostly the poor who have to pay taxes is then denied by silly arguments?

I don't understand why you say the system is mostly paid for by the poor. Please elaborate.

yeas, please do.. last time i checked the wealth were the ones being taxed the most

So the poor in the US do not pay taxes? Is there an exemption? I'm sorry I did not know this, but I thought all Americans paid taxes in some shape or form.

The wealthy are taxed the most.......but aren't there more poor in America than the wealthy?



Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4334 times:

Quoting Mbj-11 (Reply 21):
The wealthy are taxed the most.......but aren't there more poor in America than the wealthy?

The top 10% in terns of wealth in the US pay over 80 % of the taxes.


if someone makes 150,000 a year, they will pay quite a bit more than a person that makes 15,000.

To be honest, the US has many more people in the middle class than in the poor class.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineArniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4315 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 20):
If I have a cold,
Socialism is fine, Every dipidy dot that went to nursing school or med school can diagnose it.

if I want cutting edge surgery or a solution to a life threatening illness, I would much rather be in a capitilized system with the best docs and meds.

That must be about the biggest BS lots of anti universal healthcare lobbyist use to promote their capitalist system.
Quality ,level of expertise are at least on the same level over here as they are in the US, and available to all, not just those that can pay for it.


UH is far from perfect and needs constant attention to keep it from overspending but as a whole it works far better than fully privatized healthcare and is way cheaper in the end.



[edit post]
User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4308 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 22):
The top 10% in terns of wealth in the US pay over 80 % of the taxes.


if someone makes 150,000 a year, they will pay quite a bit more than a person that makes 15,000.

To be honest, the US has many more people in the middle class than in the poor class.

Not that I'm doubting your words but its not just as simple as that.
If you talk about your official income (paycheck) than you are right, the rich pay most of the taxes.
But if you take into account all their earnings , the top rich pay far less on all their earnings than the rest of the population.

If you don't believe me , just listen to this man, he knows what it is to be rich and pay taxes.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...iness/money/tax/article1996735.ece



[edit post]
25 767Lover : Anyone who earns any amount of income in a year is taxed, but there are a lot of exemptions and deductions that can be taken (earned income credit, t
26 Overlander : I love the irony it goes well with the thread. All the Best, Overlander
27 DeltaGator : Do some research. There are local, state, and federal taxes over here. Federal taxes are the ones that would pay for a national healthcare system and
28 DL021 : Silly argument? How are the poor here funding healthcare? Do you realize who pays the most for medicaid and medicare? Do you know who funds the hospi
29 JGPH1A : Why do you suppose automatically that a socialised system cannot provide the same level of expertise. Contrary to popular opinion, the US does not ha
30 Windshear : We have a socialized healthcare system, but it is far far far from being perfect. The quality varies hugely depending on where you live, the quality
31 Copaair737 : The way I look at it is like this, Why should I work, and pay taxes so somebody who doesn't want to work and be lazy can have free healthcare? Why sho
32 Kieron747 : Indeed. It's a litle known fact as well, that in Europe drug companies can get a 5 year extension on their 20 year patents on drugs if the clinical t
33 Scorpio : Here's a tiny little hint for you: we spend HALF of what you spend on healthcare per capita. And defence spending has nothing to do with it, what a u
34 Mbj-11 : Nobody likes freebie's but isn't this a little harsh? I mean you have some who'll never want to work, but to deny them health care just because they
35 DeltaGator : Let me give you a small bit of info...the world isn't nice. Seriously though, the US is a country where you can make it or break it on your own decis
36 ANCFlyer : Quite the contrary . . . it's not ignorant at all. Explain to me how a person can get the same "pill" - pick a pill of your choice* - in Canada at a
37 ADXMatt : So what you're saying is that if you don't work for ANY reason you should not get healthcare? Healthcare is a REWARD? Well lets remember that WE are
38 LH423 : You've just showed that public healthcare in the US can work. Yes, Medicare/Medicaid needs an overhaul but it can be effective. Because in Canada, we
39 Post contains images Copaair737 : Then don't serve the illegals. Make them show some sort of proof of citizenship to be served in our hospitals, or make them be able to pay for their
40 Czbbflier : Toast, ANCFlier, Mbj-11-- it appears you are all groovin' on the same wavelength... and I'm jumping on with you! OMG! I can't take this sort of rubbis
41 ANCFlyer : My point exactly!! OUR Government could do the same thing, IF - IF - they were serious about reasonably priced health care. They are NOT. Too many pr
42 Czbbflier : No evidence of that in Canada. They are not necessarily the same people. Some of those people you refer to, rail against the 'law enforcement' approa
43 Copaair737 : Health care isn't a right, it's a privilege. Why should I work hard to support some bum who doesn't want to work? If they don't want to work, can't a
44 Baroque : Not to difficult to agree with that, but how does the failure of the US government in this respect get to be an indicator of how successful other gov
45 JGPH1A : I disagree. If doctors are bound by the Hippocratic Oath to treat anyone who needs it, then everyone has the right to expect treatment from a doctor
46 Czbbflier : Well, at this most basic, ideoloical, and values-based junction, I suppose we'll never agree. I have one question though: Would you feel the same if
47 Copaair737 : How are doctors going to pay back exorbitant student loans then? And what are you going to do with the huge malpractice insurance premiums? Should do
48 ANCFlyer : I'm quite sure it is possible here, Baroque. I have no qualms with the successes other countries have had with Socialized Medicine. In fact, the US G
49 Czbbflier : Here, my friend, we agree. But here is where health care reform is so vital. First get the lawyers out of the operating room. Get their frivolously s
50 Czbbflier : If only the United States government declared better a better health care system to be "In The National Interest" as many of its questionable endeavo
51 Mbj-11 : So are you saying then that all those who don't wish to work (which is a man's right......he must know why) should be denied assistance with health?
52 Copaair737 : It'll never happen in the US, its a fantasy held by few, that many disagree with. I didn't bring it up first in this thread, in fact I was responding
53 Post contains images Baroque : I thought that was about where you stood (if indeed you can stand on or in a rectal defilade!), but this exchange gets you out stating it directly. S
54 767Lover : Yep, I was on about this (improving the system we have versus establishing a "national health system") in the NHS thread.
55 ADXMatt : I disagree. This needs to be addressed whether there is a universal plan or not. In many parts of the country there is a shortage of OBYGN's due to n
56 Baroque : I could tell you, but we would need a whole new thread. Aus has seen its costs rise alarmingly as we have taken up perhaps 30% to 40% of US systems.
57 Mbj-11 : Ok lets just be straight up. Barring all the money hungry, politicking and back door lobbyist........couldn't the system work in the US just like anyw
58 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Yes. And proper management . . . . that would be a major issue with our Government. No matter the party in 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, the bureaucratic wo
59 BigOrange : Maybe if the hospitals provided those who cannot pay with the same subsidy they provide the insurance companies there wouldn't be a problem. Why shoul
60 Post contains links and images Halls120 : As long as all legal citizens are also required to pay an appropriate share of their health care, and the right to purchase a level of health care ab
61 JGPH1A : That's original - responding with the old "The UN are a bunch of anti-American commies" gambit. You can do better than that. Why would the WHO put ou
62 Post contains images Copaair737 : I IKnow, how thoughtless and cold of me. All Universal Health Care does is reward people who are lazy. It shows that you don't have to work hard and
63 JGPH1A : ...until it's you, or someone you love.
64 Copaair737 : It's too bad then too. I'm not going to change my view on it because of that. I have healthcare, most, if not all people I know have health care. Hon
65 JGPH1A : So why did we even bother coming down from the trees ? Humanity is about being better than the animals, not just more vicious.
66 Post contains images Gunsontheroof : Quite a slap in the face to the citizens of "piss ant countries" around the world who aren't any different from you or I. I expect better from you. S
67 Halls120 : I've worked directly with the WHO, which is why I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. When they are studying a subject, they pack the study
68 JGPH1A : Nobody's insisting. It's just that nobody has yet come up with a valid objection to it - all we're hearing is knee-jerk reactions of the "f*** the po
69 Scorpio : Are you serious? Please tell me you're kidding? So all those people who don't have healthcare don't have it because they're 'lazy'? You can't possibl
70 Halls120 : LOL, setting aside my personal belief that you would like nothing better than for us adopt your system on us, why has no one responded to my post on
71 Mbj-11 : Could it be that they were not fully exposed to the benefits of the system? Absolutely fair statement, but its always good to look into what can be b
72 Halls120 : I suppose so. it could also be that the voters knew exactly what they were being offered, and rejected it.
73 Boeing7E7 : Why do people from other countries pour into the US for medical services they can't get elsewhere? In turn Doctor income potential falls, paying for
74 Pacificjourney : And your point is what ? A lot of people go to a lot of countries for a lot of medical procedures, nothing special about the US in this. No ones sayi
75 LAXspotter : The thing that I dont understand is that those against socializing medicine keep on repeating "I dont want my taxes to pay for Hobos". Its basically
76 Boeing7E7 : Everyone has access. Poor or otherwise. I don't give a rip. They have access and my premiums pay for it. I don't want the government in it anymore th
77 Post contains images Copaair737 : Our premiums are already high enough. Imagine the amount of a tax increase to pay for this "free" health care. If the free healthcare program gets en
78 Halls120 : Can you please provide a post where anyone has uttered those words? No, what many of us have expressed our objection to is being required to pay for
79 LAXspotter : look at some of the posts by copaair, he rails against those who he deems lazy to work, when in actuality there are far more people who are strugglin
80 Halls120 : Do you want to pay for the health care of someone who is able bodied but chooses not to work?
81 PPVRA : Give them a tax credit and they can afford it. Return all of his/her taxes if need be.
82 Copaair737 : So, we should coddle the underclass? That is your position? We should reward laziness? It is a privilege. What excuse is this? There are people who c
83 LAXspotter : your assumption is that most people who rely on socialized medicine are lazy bums, whereas most people who need it to live are struggling to make a f
84 B752fanatic : I am not to surprised how this subject doesn't manage to change no ones view's (compared to the NHS thread), despite the tons of time wasted by both p
85 Pacificjourney : ... and there we have it, I'm alright jack so fuck everyone else ! You'r a beautiful human being, truly you are. Who is this we, you're a 21 student
86 Pacificjourney : Clearly you are new around here - time these people have, the ability to recognise futility, haven't spotted it yet.
87 Copaair737 : Do you know me? Don't make assumptions about me. I pay my own rent. I'm working to pay my way through school. I don't depend on handouts. I have paid
88 Post contains images Halls120 : No, that is your view of his opinion. He isn't saying most people who relay on socialized medicine are "lazy bums." What he said was "There are peopl
89 B752fanatic : It certainly appears so, but I can't comprehend how peoples view's are so closed, and not open to be questioned or perhaps being corrected. Surely bo
90 Post contains links and images Boeing7E7 : Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 85): and there we have it, I'm alright jack so fuck everyone else ! You'r a beautiful human being, truly you are. And yo
91 Post contains images Halls120 : that you think you can judge what I've learned by reading my posts is simply astounding! You really need to lighten up a bit, and stop taking Anet di
92 PPVRA : Receipts? Corporations that offer Health Plans get tax credits, why not individuals?[Edited 2007-11-12 20:50:43]
93 Post contains images Baroque : I don't know about recent Medicare and Medicaide admin so I take your word for it, but it appears that either something needs to be done about admini
94 Stratosphere : While I kind of agree with you we already pay for these people. I have a neighbor who lives with his elderly parents is almost 50 yrs old has no job
95 Halls120 : I wouldn't put it that way. I would characterize it as each one of us has the right to life, but the quality of that life is largely dependent upon t
96 Post contains images Scorpio : Because there's an awful lot of prejudice in the US at anything that's possibly even remotely associated with 'socialism'? I mean, just look at these
97 AutoThrust : One is for sure the US has the most expensive health system in the World. But its health system is only rated as 37th. This means pretty poor price/ef
98 Halls120 : And that is very unfortunate, I agree. The demonizing that inevitably creeps into these discussions doesn't help. But again, I fault our alleged lead
99 Scorpio : Nothing wrong with it. Problem is that you, and several others, have been touting it as one of your main objections against u.h., while it's a comple
100 Halls120 : So because it's an non-issue (according to you) I should ignore an erroneous comment made by another poster? Good for the rest of the "western world.
101 B752fanatic : In the NHS thread (a very similar thread as this one) I stated that Health has an INELASTIC demand, therefore, Supply, quality and other things won't
102 Post contains images Scorpio : *yawn* Two things: -How exactly is healthcare so much different from, say, education, something that is 'universal'? What makes healthcare so much di
103 ArniePie : That pretty much sums it up. The US citizens can democratically determine for themselves what to do with healthcare. The only thing that annoys the h
104 Aa757first : I agree with this. There will be waiting lists in any system. Some waiting is good. Its alright if someone waits two weeks to get their wisdom teeth
105 Post contains links B752fanatic : Forgive me but I have already spoken about the subject in the NHS thread at eloquent lenght. http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-44.html
106 Aa757first : This study did not examine clinical outcomes. It is useless when comparing the actual clinical quality of a health care system.
107 Halls120 : Good question, although I'm trying to understand how/why you've jumped from the idea that we aren't governed by the rest of the western world to educ
108 Baroque : Proposition one, I think most accept that, otherwise the hanging chads would have had a different result. Proposition two, I am not sure even many/mo
109 Halls120 : Point one - we rejected mandatory universal health care when it was put forth during the first Clinton administration, so I'm not sure what you mean
110 Post contains images Baroque : "Point one" - oh I knew that, just apart from it being put up by the dreaded Hilary, I never quite knew why it was knocked back. The hanging chads wa
111 Scorpio : I don't think you really understand what a waiting list is... It's been completely and 100% been wiped off the table as an argument AGAINST universal
112 Halls120 : Which is what I suggested a long time ago. You respect my opinion, and I'll respect yours. Perhaps if you stopped trying to "win" this discussion, we
113 Pope : How many non-profit drug companies do you know? The truth is, drug development is a highly risky undertaking that requires tremendous amounts of capi
114 Post contains links Baroque : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_penicillin Someone forget to tell me that Oxford U was a for profit drug company in 1938. I was always taug
115 Pope : And if you read the 1941 entry is says that it was the private drug company Pfizer that made is commerically practical. But even if we accept your ex
116 ADXMatt : + sounds like the pilot profession. First of all the number of people who are content living under a bridge is quite small and out of that small pool
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