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Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk  
User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6090 times:

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced


... American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board. ... By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier ... According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy ...





So how does this sort of thing happen? New stealth capabilities of the Chinese? Or were the Americans asleep on the job?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv..._article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811

edited to add link.

[Edited 2007-11-12 13:39:40]


Blank.
93 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6062 times:

Maybe the Chinese got lost. Most likely this must have been a mistake by the Chinese. And its a good thing..at least the US Navy can now take measures to fix these security issues.

Interestingly, this story is nowhere to be seen either on BBC or CNN. Wonder why its not being reported there.



אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlineTsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6052 times:

LOL. They know they were just sending a message to the US. I suspect the USA will not be the only "superpower" for much longer. Not saying that we will all be at war, but some other countries will gain a little "stroke".

User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3659 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6042 times:

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
Interestingly, this story is nowhere to be seen either on BBC or CNN. Wonder why its not being reported there.

Maybe because it was first reported at least a week ago, although not so widely.


User currently offlineExpress1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6042 times:

Who phoned for a Chinese!!!!

dave


User currently offlineCactusHP From United States of America, joined May 2004, 348 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6007 times:

Submarines are very difficult to detect, even with the US's technology. Still, this should be a wake up call to the Navy that Chinese subs are a viable threat to carrier battle groups.


Sorry, I was on the landline
User currently offlineExpress1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5985 times:

Quoting CactusHP (Reply 5):

All they needed to complete the situation was a Russian sub to pop up along side the chinese sub, now that will upset the apple cart!!!

dave


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5981 times:

A recurring theme in a.net threads about Chinese military power is the quick use of the words "war" and "threat". Can't see at all where this is coming from. First of all, the Chinese military budget is ridiculously low compared to the American one. Second, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

If there's anything like a military threat between the US and China, it's surely coming from the US and not vice versa.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5975 times:

Three words -- Super-cavitating bullets...

If we got those we could blow up any torpedo even underwater


Andrea Kent

[Edited 2007-11-12 14:24:01]

User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5970 times:

Quoting CactusHP (Reply 5):
Submarines are very difficult to detect, even with the US's technology

A Diesel-Electric...?? Please....!!!

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):
So how does this sort of thing happen?

Maybe it was allowed to happen...they knew they were there. Just didn't want to be bothered by a pesky fly.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5946 times:

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):
So how does this sort of thing happen? New stealth capabilities of the Chinese? Or were the Americans asleep on the job?

What was the USN supposed to do? Sink the sub?

Submarines are stealthy - that is their forte. Will they occasionally slip through defenses? Of course. Would it have happened in a real combat situation? Who knows.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
Maybe it was allowed to happen...they knew they were there. Just didn't want to be bothered by a pesky fly.

What better news for a USN shipbuilding program than they need more escort ships for their carriers?


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5942 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
Second, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

They've been getting pretty frisky of late. First shooting down the satellite, and now this.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14030 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5926 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
Quoting CactusHP (Reply 5):
Submarines are very difficult to detect, even with the US's technology

A Diesel-Electric...?? Please....!!!

A diesel-electric sub running on batteries is much quiter than a nuclear one. The same applies to the hydrogen fuel cell powered ones of the German navy. The only drawback is that a diesel-electric sub needs to surface after some time (depending on the capacity of the batteries and the speed) and to start it's noisy diesel engine to recharge the batteries. A nuclear sub can stay under water for a much longer period of time.

Jan


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5911 times:

It's not just the Chinese that are getting aggressive lately, the Russians have as well.

But the Chinese is a great threat that we should give more attention to...


Andrea Kent


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5874 times:

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):

So how does this sort of thing happen? New stealth capabilities of the Chinese?

Not new technology... but certainly new audacity and determination, two highly sought after qualities for military leaders such as sub commanders.

Diesel submarines can be very quiet, especially when they are operating at very low speeds, or drifting. The Song class is similar, in many design features, with the Russian built Kilo class (which China, Iran, Libya, India also own).

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):
Or were the Americans asleep on the job?

I would say it was a mix of complacency on the part of the American commanders, and cunning and audacity on the part of the Chinese.

If the battle group was on a war footing, and aggressively conducting ASW... then it would have been much harder for the Chinese boat driver to slip through the screen. But nonetheless, I hope this reminds people that we should not underestimate the Chinese. They are advancing rapidly, and their goal of a blue water navy, that can project power beyond their territorial waters, is apparently moving ahead rapidly, as well.

-UH60


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5857 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):

A Diesel-Electric...?? Please....!!!

Sure a diesel punching a hole through the water, at full speed, is louder than a dance club. But a diesel at very low speed, or drifting, can be almost undetectable.

One of the quietest submarines currently serving is the German built Type 212A, which is a diesel electric.

-UH60


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5858 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):


Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
Second, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

They've been getting pretty frisky of late. First shooting down the satellite, and now this.

With "aggressive", I mean e.g. attacking other countries such as Iraq. Shooting down (an own) satellite and surfacing close to another country's vessel play in a different league, wouldn't you agree?

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 13):

But the Chinese is a great threat that we should give more attention to...

If you like, give all attention to it that you want. In the end it's not going to matter much.

Watching Russia more closely would be a much more productive use of your time...



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3070 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5841 times:

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
Interestingly, this story is nowhere to be seen either on BBC or CNN. Wonder why its not being reported there.

It might create a panic on Wall St. not to mention a political fiasco.I looked at some Chinese stocks today and they dumped big time today.JRJC,CTDC,YTEC,CSUN for example.I not sure if it had anything to do with it.

There goes the cheap labor.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 13):
But the Chinese is a great threat that we should give more attention to...

Understatement.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineLHMARK From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5837 times:

Hmmm... maybe not such a bad idea to keep those S-3s around in the ASW role.


"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5829 times:

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 18):
Hmmm... maybe not such a bad idea to keep those S-3s around in the ASW role.

Not only is retiring the S-3 a bad idea... we're not even fielding a proper replacement for it.

We're also building only one Virginia Class per year. It's unlikely we'll be properly replacing the Ticonderoga Class, and the Zumwalt may face cost increases and project delays. We also need to start fielding a replacement for the MK-48 torpedo and the AGM-84 Harpoon.

Much to do.

-UH60


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16878 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5812 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
First of all, the Chinese military budget is ridiculously low compared to the American one.

The Chinese Government is obviously not as open about what it actually spends on military and intelligence, many Chinese companies are mere fronts for the Chinese military so it's impossible to have an accurate accounting of there budgets.

Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
Second, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

Half a million Chinese crossed into Korea to fight United Nations forces.

As for this sub incident, as many know Carrier Battle groups are not only surface ships but also accompanied by 1-2 attack subs. It's quite possible this Chinese sub had someone behind them for quite some time, and they did not want them to know it through surfacing or press releases.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineTsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5764 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 13):
But the Chinese is a great threat that we should give more attention to...

A threat to what?? Is the US Government going to invade them for some reason?

I guess any country is gets stronger military wise will be a threat to the good ol US of A


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5752 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
It's quite possible this Chinese sub had someone behind them for quite some time, and they did not want them to know it through surfacing or press releases.

But the problem with this assumption is that typically the US sub will make its presence known prior to the enemy sub entering weapons range of the carrier. They will harrass the contact, and make life generally uncomfortable... attempting to scare them away.

-UH60


User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5735 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):
What was the USN supposed to do? Sink the sub?

Of course not.

They were 'supposed' to be aware, and not be surprised by it. That's the only reason this is newsworthy.



Blank.
User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5723 times:

I don't know what the whole trouble is over this whole thing, probably just some sailor ordering out some wok and lo mein and this was the only means of delivery.

...or...

[Insert Asian driver comment here]


25 Post contains images Lobster : And there it is folks!! Only took 16 replies and the title of this thread is "Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk" Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Well
26 Halls120 : and you know for sure that they were?
27 Post contains images PlymSpotter : It is a number of weeks I believe, even at top whack. They really should have seen this coming - unless of course the Chinese were doing a 'dry run'
28 Diamond : American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close
29 Halls120 : ah yes, the famous anonymous source. Sorry, but given the US military's penchant for overestimating the capabilities of our adversaries - remember th
30 GPIARFF : Uh, Yeah, the only point to having Armed Forces Is to have them stronger and better than anyone else, thus your strength becomes a deterrent and no o
31 Diamond : If you cannot identify your sources, don't bother. It would be no more credible than the article I cited.
32 Post contains images Halls120 : I see you've just realized the shortcomings of your own position!
33 Mir : More like a number of months. It would be longer were it not for the limited endurance of the crews. -Mir
34 Post contains images 2H4 : You sound like the female equivalent of Dwight Schrute. Would it even be necessary to design an all-new replacement? Besides upgrading the avionics a
35 L-188 : Somebody apparently forgot to tell Taiwan, Tibet, North Vietnam (yes, they fought a war in the 1970's) Russia, the Phillipines (major pissing contest
36 Post contains images Falcon84 : It's hard to get some good Chinese food in the middle of the ocean, I imagine. You're joking? China, if it wanted, could put out a 100 million man arm
37 Springbok747 : Not quite - 1,321,851,888 ...but thats a hell of a lot of people. Don't want to be messing with them.
38 LHMARK : Not necessarily. Not if you have to do it by sea.
39 MD11Engineer : Don't forget the various Indian-Chinese confrontations, with China in all cases being the agressor, going for territorial expansion. The Indian nukes
40 BarfBag : China has committed aggressive border incursions on the Sino-Indian border numerous times. As MD11Engineer mentioned, our strategic nuclear deterrent
41 Alberchico : That satellite was simply a test of a weapons concept that has been around for years. None of those actions compares to the military actions of Europ
42 NWA742 : Actually no..........not a nation armed with nukes that is. For instance if the Chinese suddenly lost their minds and decided to send millions of sol
43 Post contains images HAWK21M : Remember the 1962. Hindi-chini bhai bhai betrayal China has the numbers,though they can take more casualties.They can be a force to consider.I unders
44 Cfalk : That's what comes from allowing the Chinese to make all our PCs and allowing them to corrupt US officials and steal our technology. Only a decade ago
45 AeroWesty : Hardly. Don't you remember the Toshiba incident a couple of decades ago? I still won't buy a Toshiba product because of it.
46 Frequentflyer : Does not mean that they won't change. Besides, open your eyes and reckon that they are aggressive towards their own people internally, so guess what
47 Sprout5199 : I believe this is what happened. Better to trail and collect info. The question is do we let the Chinese know that we can find thier subs? Sometimes
48 Flipdewaf : you are correct on that one except which war did you win by yourselvs? maybe its th US that needs everyone elses help? just a point i thought id thro
49 GPIARFF : I hope no one took my statements to demean or belittle the soldiers of any of our allies. I'm a recent U.S. citizen, originally from Canada, and I re
50 MD-90 : In a true war between major powers, modern aircraft carriers are obsolete. They are too vulnerable. The future belongs to quiet submarines, both diese
51 Post contains links Agill : It is hardly any news to anyone that small subs can slip through. HMS Gotland sank USS Reagan in a wargame for instance. http://www.knbc.com/news/1011
52 Sprout5199 : HUH? A sub can not project power, a carrier can. Dan in Jupiter
53 DL021 : The Chinese have been working up their navy for a while, and their reverse engineered Kilos are pretty decent subs.... but two things don't make sense
54 Post contains links Diamond : This story ran 1 hour ago: Bush Approves More Submarine Money " ... WASHINGTON - President Bush signed a defense spending bill Tuesday that would doub
55 Post contains links and images UH60FtRucker : Yeah.... dude... I am serious. The Song is similar to the Kilo. It is not a copy. The first Kilo was delivered in 1995, and the first Song was delive
56 Post contains links Garnetpalmetto : Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9): A Diesel-Electric...?? Please....!!! As other users have pointed out, a SSK running on its electric batteries is quite a bit
57 Post contains links UH60FtRucker : Nope. That was when they finally entered service. The first one was launched in November, 1994. However there were numerous flaws, such as unacceptab
58 UH60FtRucker : That's the thing... I never said the Song wasn't anything like the Kilo. In fact, I said they shared many features. But Ian said they were copies...
59 N74JW : Have you been eating Chinese toys? No way in hell is a foreign submarine supposed to be able to surface within sight of a US carrier. What was the at
60 MD11Engineer : Having another country know that there are a few attack submarines on the loose somewhere in a contested stretch of water or a ballistic missile subm
61 Garnetpalmetto : Doh - right you are. Had to cross-reference another source to see that they had developmental issues. Again - an SSK operating on batteries is usuall
62 Allstarflyer : I'm not up on military technology, so I'm just curious - what (besides ships) are the best off-shore devices used to identify possible sub activity? I
63 AGM100 : I wonder if the US exercises was held in the same place regularly in the past years , the Chinese may have prepositioned which I believe is a good ta
64 Garnetpalmetto : Well the maxim goes that the best ASW platform is another submarine. Other than that though you have air-dropped sonobuoys (dropped from either ASW p
65 StealthZ : And the Australian Collins class have proved troublesome more than once as well. A well driven SSK is always going to be a challenging adversary, at
66 Sprout5199 : Don't forget the towed-arrays, hull mounted sonar on surface ships. Good tactic on both sides. Our subs don't always announce their presence. Just be
67 Post contains images Rara : Taiwan - what about it? They're Chinese themselves; and arguably more aggressive than their mainland counterparts. The Taiwanese government claims to
68 Diamond : It would be helpful for someone who knows the details to stack up our military against theirs. Two columns ... their subs vs. our subs. Their figher
69 Canuckpaxguy : Yeah, let us know what they say. I'm sure the response they give you to broadcast on the internet will be completely different than the response from
70 UH60FtRucker : It's very difficult to compare numbers against numbers, and accurately interpolate who is "better". Simply because numbers don't accurately depict th
71 N74JW : What about ambient noise, cooling units, talk, electric motors? Magnetic Anomoly Detector? Was the US protection effort on vacation?
72 Diamond : That all makes perfect sense. I'm just wondering about the pure numbers though. My uneducated perception is that they have 'some' fighters, but not m
73 Halls120 : You mean the alleged Chinese incident, correct? You are making the same mistake others have made. Just because I told Diamond "I'd get back to him" d
74 BarfBag : You have your facts wrong. Sino-Indian conflicts were NOT the result of Chinese intervening in a conflict between India and Pakistan. They were not o
75 Rara : This is not really the kind of event that the state media typically considers newsworthy. But I'll keep my eyes open.
76 MD-90 : A carrier can't "project power" if it's been sunk. Replace "The People's Republic" with "The United States of America's government" and nothing much
77 Canuckpaxguy : Yes, yes. The alleged incident. I'm confused. If you weren't going to get back to us with details, what were you going to come back with? I've jumped
78 Halls120 : Unclassified details of the incident. Yes, but for some people, including the poster who initiated the thread, they've already jumped to the conclusi
79 UH60FtRucker : So you don't believe this happened? Just a big... lie? Their force structure is based more around territorial defense, and internal security... than
80 Diamond : What on earth are you talking about? I feel like you're in some parallel universe on this thread. You keep interjecting "alleged" as if the Daily Mai
81 Post contains images YOWza : Maybe the Chinese were tipped off to the location of the war games by Al-Qaeda using Al-Jazeera as a conduit Sorry I couldn't resist. YOWza
82 Halls120 : When did this incident occur, Diamond? Bingo! we have a winner. Did the Daily Mail say WHEN this incident occurred? Nope. What they did say is "Ameri
83 Diamond : Apparently you do not intend to state your own beliefs. Without having any facts of your own, you seem mighty desperate to create doubt. Why is that?
84 KevinSmith : Why not use the Hornet? I mean come on it's replaced/ing every other fleet aircraft. Did you hear that soon the Hornet is going to replace the S-60s?
85 L-188 : Why don't you just plug it as the "Chuck Norris" of naval aircraft? Agreed. Many personel, but I also suspect that the USN let it in close to get a c
86 Post contains links Halls120 : LOL, no, what I'm pointing out is that the Daily Mail story has - in addition to no one willing to discuss the incident on the record - no dates. Whe
87 Post contains links Diamond : Yes, I saw the post. Your distrust of the media is fascinating. In any case, your 'trusted source' the Defense News also ran a story yesterday (date:
88 Halls120 : Try as you might, this isn't about my general distrust of the media. This is about the Daily Mail - one newspaper - running a story about a year old
89 KevinSmith : F-18s never fly. They're so ugly the ground runs away from them.
90 Post contains images EA CO AS : Nah, they'll deliver if your minimum order is $25.00 or more. And for a carrier battle group, obviously we'd surpass that..
91 AGM100 : When the term "battle group" is used ... would this include attack submarines ? If I was a battle group admiral I would certainly insist that a picket
92 Garnetpalmetto : Usually, yes. A CSG will usually include up to 2 SSNs in its composition, but those are usually the first assets to get retasked from the CSG to atte
93 Post contains images DL021 : So the possibility of this being a possible effort to get more submarine funding has now been raised....wonder if it'll work better than lighting the
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