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Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization  
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1937 times:

I'm wondering if the Church of Scientology should be labled a subversive organization (particularly when it becomes involved with politics) as the Communist Party was considered in the past.

There are all sorts of things they've done in England, in Australia, and in the US (They broke into FBI offices or spied on the FBI or something -- it was one of the biggest breaches of national security), and they have got two congressmen elected in California.

Any people who know more in this area should feel free to add details I might have missed.


SOURCES
- URL: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...+Scientology%22&btnG=Google+Search (you should find a lot of search results)
- URL: http://www.xenu.net/
- URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology


Andrea Kent

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1934 times:

In France the Church of Scientology isn't recognised as a religion. It is considered legally as a cult, and subject to government scrutiny. Not being a religion means they can't register as a charity, nor qualify for any state maintenance.

User currently offlineIFEMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

Welcome back, Andrea Kent.

Should CoS be labelled a subversive organization? Tough call...

To me, it's clear that the founding elements of scientology are works of fiction by a SciFi writer. However, there are also plenty of people in the world who say that the Bible is fiction, that the Quran is fiction, that the book of Mormon is fiction. So...I guess all I could say is what's good for one is good for another.

Of course, that's ignoring the fact that Tom Cruise, who is a complete nut job, and not a very good one at that, is a Scientologist, and on that basis, I wouldn't let CoS out in public...


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1926 times:

In Germany, Scientology is not considered a church because evidence has shown that they're not a non-profit organisation, and is thus not eligible for whatever tax deductions they could get. As far as Germany is concerned, Scientology is just a sect, but one that makes a lot of money from its believers.

IMO Scientology should be outright banned.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21418 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

They're officially considered to be a for-profit enterprise and not a religious community in Germany and are under surveillance by the constitution protection service since they clearly have the goal of overthrowing the democratic order. There are calls for an outright ban, but they've managed to evade that fate so far.

Yanking their tax exemption in the USA as well would be a good first step. It would also confirm their insane paranoia, but that's their problem.

They're a dangerous anti-democratic cult which operates with brainwashing and other aggressive manipulations of their victims. And from leaked internal information (and their spaced-out public scriptures) they do indeed seem to use subversive manipulations to gain material and political power.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17369 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1909 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
They're a dangerous anti-democratic cult

That begs the question: what religion isn't a cult?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1900 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):

IMO Scientology should be outright banned.

That's a little bit Fascist now, isn't it? Yank their tax exemption and declare them a cult all you want (because they are), but no government has the right to deny its citizens the right to practice their beliefs (in a benign way), however odd they may be.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21418 posts, RR: 54
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1896 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
That begs the question: what religion isn't a cult?

There's a point... but a "cult" in the closer sense is an organisation which uses intense pressure on its victims to the point of brainwashing, trying to completely dominate the personality instead of more or less just trying to motivate people to show up in church.

The distinction is somewhat blurred, but Scientology is on the outer fringe and nowhere near the division line.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21418 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1894 times:

Quoting Graphic (Reply 6):
That's a little bit Fascist now, isn't it? Yank their tax exemption and declare them a cult all you want (because they are), but no government has the right to deny its citizens the right to practice their beliefs (in a benign way), however odd they may be.

Sure it does, when an organisation pursues explicitly antidemocratic goals and doesn't even shy away from illegal practices on the way. Otherwise the same argument could be made to "protect" any other illegal practice as well.


User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1859 times:

"Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization"

I'm not sure if the Coz would be offended or intrigued. You think Henks would consider NonAv.com subversive?

As far as scientology, they're just an irrelevant minority with a sometimes-loud voice.


User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1853 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
There's a point... but a "cult" in the closer sense is an organisation which uses intense pressure on its victims to the point of brainwashing, trying to completely dominate the personality instead of more or less just trying to motivate people to show up in church.

I'm guessing you haven't been to a church in awhile, because for one thing, their main purpose is (well, at least should be) to inspire people to better themselves and their community through positive moral values. I think you'll find that this is mostly where a cult differs: They do not particularly inspire their followers to better the greater community with which they live, mainly they just inspire their followers to contribute only to the organization, and usually in the form of monetary contributions and/or "volunteer" labor.


User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1847 times:

If churches getting involved in politics is subversive, then we have a LOT more than the CoS to worry about.

Religion has hijacked politics.

Politics has hijacked religion.

May they live unhappily ever after.



Blank.
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1843 times:

Quoting Diamond (Reply 11):
Religion has hijacked politics.

Politics has hijacked religion.

May they live unhappily ever after

The root of quite a few of the problems today.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineSBBRTech From Brazil, joined Jul 2007, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1787 times:

I read some of Scientology´s principles and it´s nothing more than another bunch of (not so) inventive religious-wannabe crap aimed to money collecting. Period.
Can´t believe they have any means to overthrown governments or practice massive brainwashing. Maybe they wish so, but come on. That Hubbard fellow obviously felt overwhelmed by the competition he was getting on the sci-fi market that he decided to try something else to fill his pocket with cash.
What better way to get rich fast than making up a whole "religion"? Ask the so-called evangelic folks here in Brazil. If they hear you from the top of their penthouses, maybe you get an answer.



"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3765 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1779 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
uses intense pressure on its victims to the point of brainwashing

Well, you go ahead and try to convince people that we are decendants from aliens who came to earth in DC-8s without any form of brainwashing. Go ahead, I dare you!  duck 

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39720 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1776 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
I'm wondering if the Church of Scientology should be labled a subversive organization (particularly when it becomes involved with politics) as the Communist Party was considered in the past.

You have GOT to be kidding us!
If you are looking for a "Subversive Organization", look no further than these people;



http://nowscape.com/islam/islam.htm

IV.138: Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the right way.

IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

IV.92: And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave , and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a covenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.











XVI.8: It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you (again return to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.

II.161: Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;

IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.

IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God.

IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.

VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9181 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1776 times:



Quoting Graphic (Reply 6):

That's a little bit Fascist now, isn't it? Yank their tax exemption and declare them a cult all you want (because they are), but no government has the right to deny its citizens the right to practice their beliefs (in a benign way), however odd they may be.

Calling his opinion "fascist" is far over the edge, he is entitled to his opinion as much as CoS is entitleld to lable itself a "church".

CoS has not the slightst chance to become a "public corporation" in Germany, a status which would give them tax exemption and a couple of other rights, such as raising partial tax deductible contributions from their members. Jehova's witnesses have gained such a status a few years ago.

AFAIC, CoS is a commercial enterprise with a buisness plan that is to make their followers happy in exchange of a heavy and continuous contributions in form of money or by transferring property. That means, they are legally walking a tight rope, a problem all con games have.

The base for their business pölan is, that the dumb never die.



.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3765 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1767 times:



Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
If you are looking for a "Subversive Organization", look no further than these people;

Ever read the old testament?

Islam didn't bring down the towers, a group of muslim extremists did. Do people hate Christianity because of Fred Phelps?

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13043 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1763 times:

Several Christian evangelicals with large mega-church organizations and elaborate lifestyles for their leaders are under investigation by a Senate Committee to determine if they are in violation of the tax exception laws for faith organizations. It's too bad they didn't include the Church of Scientology in that investigation, but probably fear of massive protests and nasty reactions to politicians who went after them and the filing of massive lawsuits would end it very quickly.
The USA government has to be very careful as to regulating faith organizations and indeed we have Federal laws that sometimes overprotect faith organizations. Current Federal laws mean if a church wants to expand, they don't have to follow local planning or zoning laws, but it also protects faith organizations from prejudice like if someone wants to establish a mosque. Probably the CoS would use the religious freedom laws and the state and Federal courts to fight any attempts to go after them. They have been sued by 100's over the years and tended to win all of those suits.
There is also the fear of backlash if the Feds got too much on faith organizations, no matter how cult-like, disturbing, and even illegal in the beliefs and actions. Part of that comes from when the feds went after David Koresh in Waco in 1993 and what that led to. We also have to be extremely careful about going after the relatively few Islamic organizations that may be supporting or encouraging terror against America.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39720 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1758 times:

Doona:
Yes I have.

As horrific and disgusting as Fred Phelps and his thugs are, they aren't the reason we need to take off our shoes and go through intrusive searches when boarding an aircraft. Fred Phelps and his thugs can be taken out with just ONE tanker. The "peace loving" group you are defending will require........
nevermind.


LTBEWR:
Excellent post, minus your comments in regards to Church of Scientology> They are harmless and is a group of rich celebrities.


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Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3765 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1752 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
The "peace loving" group you are defending will require........

Are you actually saying you want to "take out" all muslims? Yeah, certainly better (and more peace loving) than the fundamentalists screaming "Death to America!"...

Edit: I want to clarify that I do not intend to defend islamist terrorists, but labelling every muslim as one is ignorant and counterproductive.

Cheers
Mats

[Edited 2007-11-13 05:23:06]


Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21418 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1751 times:



Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
Excellent post, minus your comments in regards to Church of Scientology> They are harmless and is a group of rich celebrities.

No, they're not, and your post proves that their propaganda figureheads apparently work on some people.

Scientology is an aggressively authoritarian organisation which under the pretense of "clearing" their members extract personal and potentially harmful information from their applicants, which is collected in personal dossiers and is ruthlessly employed to keep them in line.

They employ fraud, blackmail, extortion and a wide range of intimidation practices not just sporadically but systematically.

They are squeezing large amounts of money out of their members and use tactics to break their spirit and make them totally obedient to the cult which are otherwise known from torture committed by totalitarian regimes.

And I'm afraid they don't provide private jets to their members either. Read the fine print again, please!


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1718 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
propaganda figureheads apparently work on some people.

even on self-proclaimed liberals like Larry. I dont understand how he can take in that literature from the same people who advocate a Fundamentalist Christian USA. Larry, when I met you @ LAX, did I show any of that kind of behavior?



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1696 times:

Interesting debate...but rather pointless.

You want dangerous, subversive, anti-democratic groups? Try all those backwoods, white-supremecist, anti-federal government groups that are so heavily armed we'd have to send in the Military to vanquish them...and can expect casulties. These groups are planning for a massive race war right here on American soil. That's scary!

Compared to those groups, CoS is just an annoyance.

Democrats and Republicans are also much more dangerous subversives than the CoS.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1689 times:



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 23):
Try all those backwoods, white-supremecist, anti-federal government groups that are so heavily armed we'd have to send in the Military to vanquish them...and can expect casulties. These groups are planning for a massive race war right here on American soil

as much as it may sound sensationalized I agree, the key thing is that they're "armed", but care to name a couple of groups, it'll cause a stir

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 23):
Democrats and Republicans are also much more dangerous subversives than the CoS

 rotfl 



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
25 Superfly : No. Are your a fundamentalist?
26 Post contains images LAXspotter : , well no, and most people arent, lets go to Indonesia or Malaysia. Hell did you go to Phuket, were you harassed there? I doubt it.
27 Post contains images Superfly : Will I did get chased by a naked taxi driver. I doubt he was a Muslim though. I have been to Turkey BTW and no I wasn't harassed there either. I don'
28 LAXspotter : I dont want to kill you do I? There are 1.3 Billion Muslims, most of them are probably trying to earn a few bucks than contemplating on whose head to
29 Post contains images Klaus : Serves you right. You should have dialled down your legendary charm before taking the ride...!
30 Post contains links and images Superfly : I told him MacIntosh computers suck and that's what set him off! LOL! Just kidding! Yes this was in Bangkok and he was shouting; "You f--k me? I'll f
31 LTU932 : Remember the one time, when teachers were actively making advertisement for Scientology in several public schools in Germany? It happened a few years
32 Post contains images Boeing4ever : I'm not trying to sensationalize it. Truth be told that while these groups are essentially home grown terrorist organisations, they wouldn't stand a
33 LAXspotter : No kidding, but what can we do? Is there a limit to hate speech? As much as we would like to restrict groups like these, theyre protected until they
34 PPVRA : Banning an organization because they seek political power is fascism, even if they seek to change government style. Democracy isn't the holy final wor
35 LAXspotter : real democracy is letting everyone speak, no matter how disgusting, contorted or "wierd" their views, you can deny that freedom to splinter groups no
36 Post contains images Klaus : The flaw in your reasoning becomes obvious when you're looking at the Weimar Republic which didn't defend itself against the nazis. According to you,
37 PanHAM : if I remember the words of the Magna Charta correctly, a free man does not accept the rule of the Monarch and not the rule of the mob. The latter app
38 Post contains images PPVRA : I don't see what's not fascist about "banning" a revolution. It's the type of thing Hitler and dictators do, not a democracy. They can defend themsel
39 Klaus : A revolution is and must be always banned - it's the most basic element of any order, including any democratic one. A revolution is the violent overt
40 PPVRA : It doesn't have to be violent. If that existing order becomes detrimental and/or illegitimate the governed have every right to get rid of it. It shou
41 Post contains images Blackbird : To Klaus That's what most people don't realize. They want to ultimately take over the world! There are all sorts of stories about how they got in trou
42 PanHAM : I can give you a good example. My home country between 1933 and 1945. The mob came to power in a democratic election, took over power by cutting out
43 Post contains links PPVRA : Term limits don't stop abuses and don't prevent rule of the mob. It might prevent it from continuing after a certain number of years, but that is unl
44 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Well for one, groups that arm themselves as heavily as that do earn the attention of the FBI and ATF which usually tracks their movements with reason
45 JGPH1A : For given values of "illegal" and "unconstitutional". There has to be some moral aspect here too - are those things declared "illegal" and "unconstit
46 Post contains images Fumanchewd : We've gone over this before. Every religion tells their followers what to believe. Many of their followers vote accordingly. Most Americans that I kn
47 PPVRA : I'd like to note that they are the same thing, interchangeable terms. Doesn't sound like it from what I wrote.
48 PanHAM : In was talking about a functioning democracy, meaning, the division of powers are working fact. Means, the government is controlled by the parliament
49 PPVRA : Separation of Powers is not democratic, though. That's why we are all republics and not democracies (Federal Republic of Brazil/Germany/the USA). We
50 Post contains images PPVRA : Here: Everything in this little animation isn't a form of government, it's a belief in what the contents of the constitution ought to be(liberty/freed
51 Blackbird : LAXSpotter, In my opinion hate speach should only count if it incites a riot (and I don't mean the offended people riot deliberately to get the speake
52 Post contains images LAXspotter :
53 Blackbird : LAX, Well it's true isn't it? Andrea Kent
54 Post contains images Klaus : I was mostly talking about the structural issues there - a deeply flawed state would by necessity also try to protect its own stability, even if its
55 Flighty : Gosh, these things about "subverting our govt" seem so quaint now. There is no solid old-fashioned American government left to subvert! What are they
56 StealthZ : And a reasonably small number of destructive extremists so it isn't your fault, right? WRONG, That vast majority of peaceloving muslims has a huge re
57 LAXspotter : you been to a mosque? you around Muslims? The vast majority of Muslims do condemn terrorism, and the vast majority of those people know that the few
58 Flighty : Muslims have definitely killed a few people over the years, but Christians have killed more. If I may generalize, the Christians have more developed s
59 Post contains images LAXspotter : I dont care really about how much each religion has killed, they've both done their fair share at making this world unlivable, any hope of living in
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