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Conservativism/Christianity  
User currently offlineBombstar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 868 times:

There seems to be a relation between the two. I have seen it on these forums as well from time to time.
Generally a lot of conservatives seem to believe that certain things having to do with christianity (e.g lords prayer) should be excersized in school, and other things like that.

So, my question is, is conservativism a belief for christians? (or people of faith?)

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineToadpipe From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 839 times:

I am a Christian, as such I can only speak for myself as a Christian. I don't, however, think that prayer should be explicitly or implicitly forced in school. For one, I realize that a prayer time in school would inevitably lead to some form of discrimintaion against either those who don't do it or those who do. Two, I don't particularly want some teacher that doesn't beleive in prayer leading a prayer. Three, what kind of prayer should there be? One to Allah? One to Christ? One to ? Saying that we should just make a generic prayer, results in no prayer at all, becuase ALL religions are either explicitly or implicity exclusive by nature.

Abortion, it is legal now. I can excericise my right to vote to make it illegal. That would be a legal means and a moral means of me expressing what I want changed. Failing that, I have no right to take justice into my hands by violating a law that doesn't force me to commit an act that is immoral. If the government said I must have an abortion, then I could violate that law, but it doesn't.

Homosexuality, they have human rights. I don't believe they have homosexual rights. I don't have the right to mistreat them personally verbally or physically. I have the obligation to treat them as my neighbor, co worker , and if they are my friend as a friend.

Any other issues?




User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 826 times:

Conservatism is linked with Christianity IMO. I am a Christian and I believe that the Bible does teach us to be somewhat conservative. Most religions teach that too.


Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 821 times:

First, 'Conservatism' is a very vague and general term. But, if you just mean right-wingers, I beg to differ. Look at Catholics and Black-Americans. Catholics are split down the middle as far as Democrat and Republican and Black Americans are largely Democrat, yet as a group, they are among the most religious and Christian people in America. I don't see the relationship in religion and ideology.


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 815 times:

Perhaps a more thought-provoking question...was Jesus a conservative...or liberal?

User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 818 times:

Well, He voted for Dole

I would guess a compassionate conservative Big grin



"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 800 times:

JetService:
Well, He voted for Dole

You're right, they were born at the same time. Big grin




Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDe727ups From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 814 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 785 times:

It seems that there are some really conservative Christians on this board such as Q400/Alpha 1/Twotterwrench. The not so conservative Christians, like myself, don't often bother getting involved in the heated discussions that lead you to believe all Christians are conservative...these types of threads often just lead to spite and hate....and what does that accomplish?

Jesus was neither conservative nor liberal.....he simply followed God's agenda and let the chips fall where they may......


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 786 times:

Superfly, heh heh, right! I was going to make fun of Strom's age, but I figured too many people here would start freaking out beyond recognition.


"Shaddap you!"
User currently onlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4785 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 775 times:

In Canada, Catholics as a group overwhelmingly vote for the Liberal party.

User currently offlineMcdougald From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 768 times:

CPDC10-30 wrote: "In Canada, Catholics as a group overwhelmingly vote for the Liberal party."

Traditionally they did, though I suspect that more of them are becoming 'swing voters' who have no particular allegiance to any one party, much like the blue-collar vote which is now split between the Liberals, New Democrats and Alliance.

As for evangelical conservatives, they have a much smaller population base to work from: evangelical Christians only make up about 10% of Canada's population, compared to about 25% in the U.S. And they keep backing self-destructive candidates: Bill Vander Zalm, Stockwell Day...





User currently onlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4785 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 762 times:

Well, all my Catholic relatives are still following through with the old tradition, but its good to hear it is changing.

User currently offlinePba_durst From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 759 times:

Conservativism is much too broad of a term to try to determine if Christians fit into that mold. In reality, Christianity is also quite broad, as Christians come in many varieties and from all areas of life, too. There are non-conservative Christians. Thus, I believe that the answer to the question above would be "No, conservativism is not a core belief of Christianity."

There is a very good small research firm that does try to define the attitudes of church-attending Christians, run by George Barna (Barna Research, I believe, at www.barna.org .) You can get some statistics from them.

There is also a newer book which discusses and defines (among other things) the differences between the "religious right" and a "conservative Christian." I'm not recommending the book, but it does have a different, good definition for both, and looks at conservativism in the larger Baptist denominations. It is Soul Freedom: Baptist Battle Cry.
Paperback - 144 pages (June 16, 2000)
Smyth & Helwys Pub; ISBN: 1573123358 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.31 x 9.03 x 6.05 by Grady C. Cothen and James M. Dunn
($16 USD at a large on-line bookstore.)


User currently offlineMx5_boy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 749 times:

Guys,

You could really split the issue down the middle. The more conservative christians are very right wing whereas the more liberal christians seem to be a bit lefty.

Certainly you can equate strict christians with conservative parties - but still it's a bit rich in that department. The 'true' christians, and I mean the good people of the suburbs who devote their time to good causes and helping others are usually lefty.

One thing I have found is the more extreme christians on this board tend to be very conservative and American. Has anyone seen a Brit / Aussie / Canuk that is like this?

Cheers,

mb

A new star is born..


User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 743 times:

I'm forced to disagree. Part of the problem is that Christianity has an unfortunate tendancy to be subsumed into political ideology. The result is that both the left and the right feel able to justify themselves by thinking that God is on their side. This is little more than using religion to justify a particular political stance, which is not what religion is about.

Jesus was ultimately put to death because he was perceived as a threat to the political and religious status quo. He went out of his way to shun the political movements of the day, and even criticised their small mindedness, as it prevented them from seeing the truth because they were so preoccupied with their political games. This irked a number of powerful people, and the rest is history.

Christianity, in short, transcends political ideology. It is not enslaved to it. We should concentrate on our own relationship to God and how we ourselves fall short in that relationship instead of trying to use God to push a political agenda. God cannot be put into a box. In fact, the attempts probably cause him great amusement.

Charles, SJ



The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineMx5_boy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 734 times:

Charles,

Very well put compared to the jumble of words coming out of my mind.

I'm sure god would be very amused too.

mb



User currently offlineNaimas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 712 times:

A really good book on the subject is


"What in the world are we doing"

Or "What on earth are we doing"


Anyways, it's by JOHN FISCHER

It talks about the role of Christians in society and the mistakes we make when we are coming from the wrong directions.


User currently offlineToadpipe From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 708 times:

CtBarnes, nice post. I agree, in part. But if Jesus were alive ( as in walking around as a member of the society) in the US, would he not use legal means to achieve good? Would he vote to ban slavery? See we can vote, and that is a legal means and a morally acceptable means by which, we as Christians can affect the good or right the wrongs in our society. This is opposed to illegal means ( blowing up abortion clinics) and morally unacceptable means such as coercion or revolt.

User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 695 times:

But if Jesus were alive ( as in walking around as a member of the society) in the US, would he not use legal means to achieve good?

I doubt it. Jesus life wasn't about using cultural infrastructures to strengthen his message. It wouldn't be long before he'd be preaching to 15 or 20 people in a field and a young aggressive Christian marketing punk would get in his face and say "Why waste your time here when you can fundraise tax free, buy low priced late night cable time, and reach more consumers, reinvest your dividends, establish your own cable system, again as a tax free religious entity, reach more people, use your money to gain influence in Congress and rewrite broadcast regs to REQUIRE your programming be given air time, and before you know it you're sitting on top of a billion dollar Christian media franchise with your own publishing, record label, movie production house (How bout them 'Left Behind!' sequels!?).....hell, who knows, we smack "Christian" on the side of a 737 and we might have something!"

And the FIRST time this gentle country woodcrafter stood up publically and denounced the industry that his words fertilized.....

...he'd be labelled "anti-Christian."


User currently offlineToadpipe From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 688 times:

Thanks for the exercize in hyperbole. I agree with you heavymetal, but your attacking a straw man if you think that was an attack on my post.

User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 687 times:

Everything's "attack" with you. What's up with that?

Are your convictions that tender?


User currently offlineToadpipe From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 684 times:

You quoted my post, than misconstrude my intent. I don't think you did it intentionally. That is all. Just clarifying that I agreed with the sentiments expressed in your post, but they are not what I was stating in mine. You were obviously attacking something? Just a casual glance, and one can infer that. My beliefs aren't tender or ill thought out, I welcome truth in all forms. I put my beliefs on the line daily and if they are proven wrong, I change them. No hard feelings, I don't dislike you if that is what you think. I'm sure you are a nice person, and I have no reason to think otherwise, if I gave a different impression, please accept my apology.

User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 678 times:

I don't think I misinterpreted your intent. You mentioned the systems Jesus might work in in modern day America. I offered the notion he'd ignore them, because too often they're cynically designed and rife with agenda that has little if anything to do with the life of Christ. You seemed to agree.

In any case it wasn't meant to be an affront on your comment. I'm sure you and I might differ on the exact variance of the "good" Christ might work towards, but we probably don't disagree that it would be quite a thing so see him walk the streets of modern America!

That would be something! To watch his genius cut through the clutter of this mass media society.....would we listen? Or become bored and tune over to Seinfeld re-runs?



User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 672 times:

It's tough to speculate what Jesus might do if he were alive and preaching today. We know so little about Jesus the man that we cannot begin to speculate how he would act. This is because although the Gospels are a rich source of Jesus' teachings, they cannot be relied upon as biographies in the sense we understand them. The gospels were written about 40-60 years after Jesus' death and resurrection. During the intervening time the stories were passed along by word of mouth. When that happens, things change, get embellished, and interpreted for the needs of the early Christian communities for whom they were written.

What is relevent, however, is that we as Christians are the inheritors of his teachings and his desire to bring about the kingdom of God, and so we have the duty first and foremost to live the gospel for ourselves, and not worry about how others are or are not doing so.

As an aside, an atheist once asked the Christian poet and writer Kathleen Norris how it was she could be part of a church that was so hypocritical. She responded simply: "I am the only hypocrite I have to worry about in the Church."

Charles, SJ



The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineToadpipe From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 668 times:

The gospels were written about 40-60 years after Jesus' death and resurrection. During the intervening time the stories were passed along by word of mouth. When that happens, things change, get embellished, and interpreted for the needs of the early Christian communities for whom they were written.


Actually, most scholars, even the athiestic ones don't share this view. The new testament is the defacto standard of historical writings from antiquity. We have more copies (around 5,000) and they are in more agreement textually than any other. In fact the various manuscripts differ in only one half of one percent. No other book comes close. Only 40 some lines from the New Testament are actually in dispute. If you want sources, I will reply tonight from work.


25 Heavymetal : Mr. Barnes, it is people like you that help keep my faith alive. Is there no greater feeling than a living relationship with the wisdom of Jesus? No e
26 Ctbarnes : Toadpipe: Are you arguing from a fundamentalist perspective? If that's the case I can understand where you are coming from. Catholics are not fundamen
27 Prebennorholm : "Give God what belongs to God". "Give the Emporor what belongs to the Emporor". (Maybe not correct quotation, I have no English Bible, it's translated
28 Redngold : Not necessarily true that all Christians are conservative. Some Christians are really into "social justice" which is considered a tenet of liberalism.
29 N400QX : I agree with Don (DE727UPS) that you cannot, nor should you, try to label Christ as a leftist or a rightest. He didn't think (or, shall I say, act on
30 NormalSpeed : Well, I suppose I'll throw my two bits in. I don't believe that religion is necessarily a function of political preference, or vice versa. For exampl
31 Toadpipe : Contrary to popular opinion, there are various divisions within the Catholic Church, there are fundamental catholics, charismatic catholics, evangelic
32 Ctbarnes : Toadpipe, Sorry for the delay, I had to prepare for a class presentation yesterday. While it is true there are many flavors of Catholics, there are do
33 Heavymetal : Charles... Just curious...I see you're from Chicago....did you know or had you met Cardinal Bernadin? To me he was a great hope for progressive Cathol
34 Ctbarnes : Heavymetal, Sadly, I was not in Chicago while Bernadin was alive, and I was living abroad during the time of the accusations and his battle with cance
35 Post contains images Heavymetal : "The Gift of Peace" occupies a very special place on my book shelf. I page through it from time to time to remind myself there's no room in my world f
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