Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years  
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8124 posts, RR: 26
Posted (6 years 9 months 16 hours ago) and read 1795 times:

Good on the President - providing opportunities for these discussions in a facilitation role is always a good thing, and sheds necessary light on which governments are committed to advancing peace in the region and which aren't.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071127/pl_nm/palestinians_israel_dc

President George W. Bush launched a U.S. drive to create a Palestinian state on Monday, with Israelis and Palestinians nearing an agreement to address the toughest issues of their decades-old conflict.

...

"We've come together this week because we share a common goal -- two democratic states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security," Bush said at a State Department dinner for participants in Tuesday's international conference near Washington.

"Achieving this goal requires difficult compromises," he insisted.

The talks could jumpstart a long-dormant peace process, but no one predicts a swift breakthrough in a conflict that has outlasted many a U.S. president and Middle Eastern leader.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, putting her credibility on the line, assembled representatives from more than 40 countries, many driven by a desire to prevent Iran from becoming a dominant -- and nuclear -- Middle East power.


Of course this is really Condi's deal and the State Department's overarching role, but it's a rare show of good sense regarding the ME for the PotUS to be lending his hand and he should be commended for it.

Abbas in June lost control of Gaza to Hamas Islamists, who were not invited to Annapolis and have criticized it.

In Jerusalem's walled Old City, at least 15,000 Israelis opposed to this week's talks gathered at the Western Wall to pray and protest against the Annapolis meeting.

Saudi Arabia's participation was seen as a diplomatic coup for Bush, but the kingdom has made clear there will be no handshakes with Israeli officials. "We are not here for theater," Faisal told reporters.

Asked about a possible snub, Olmert said, "I won't extend my hand to whoever isn't ready to shake the hand of the people of Israel. But I am happy he is here."


Curious that the Saudis and Syria send anyone at all when they don't even recognize Israel  Yeah sure Theater or not, this is another chance for all to recognize that the Saudis are full of double talk and the current leadership only stands to benefit from continued strife in the region.  crazy 

Also well and clear that more needs to be done to illegitimize the Zionists. There were protests today against Olmert in Washington as well. I think we all remember what happened to the last Israeli leader who expressed commitment to a two-state solution.

"All politicians in the world are aware that this conference is doomed to failure," Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said a televised speech in Tehran.

And all concerned about this issue are aware that nothing will ever be accomplished without having these talks repeatedly without fail. Bullets and blood certainly won't be part of any lasting solution. Thanks for your non-contribution  Yeah sure


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 1775 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Of course this is really Condi's deal and the State Department's overarching role, but it's a rare show of good sense regarding the ME for the PotUS to be lending his hand and he should be commended for it.

I think Sec. Rice's best success story is going to be dealing with N. Korea about their nukes. Even though the Israelis and their neighbors have been relatively quiet for a little while, I don't think Rice will have much success achieving any notable compromise.


User currently offlineTootallsd From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 1767 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Good on the President - providing opportunities for these discussions in a facilitation role is always a good thing, and sheds necessary light on which governments are committed to advancing peace in the region and which aren't.

Yeah good for Georgie Boy. To me it seems like about seven years late. I remember his first year in office, well the year up to 9/11, when I was 1) outspoken that the USA didn't have a role making peace anywhere and 2) showing such a pro-Israel stance that it would make Kissinger blush.

To me this is all about trying to fish some slivers of 'legacy' after years of the Iraq debacle.

And the real issue has always been at the other end of the axis of evil -- and there he didn't seem to have the stuff to take on NK.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 1758 times:



Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 2):
and there he didn't seem to have the stuff to take on NK.

which is probably the representation of all the trangressions of human rights only behind the government of Sudan neither of which this nation has committed anything much to. There are a lot more people in the "need" of freedom and if the US is going to be the world's police it has to go ahead and take action.

Just wondering, is it possible for Israel to Abandon the essetially Illegal settlements in the West Bank? or is it just a false dream on my part after the world saw the "horrors" of removing settlers from Gaza  Yeah sure



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 3 hours ago) and read 1738 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Good on the President - providing opportunities for these discussions in a facilitation role is always a good thing, and sheds necessary light on which governments are committed to advancing peace in the region and which aren't.

I agree...it's something worth doing and by publicly inviting and involving all the sides it makes it clear which nations desire to be part of a process.
It's no guarantee, but talking is better than fighting in this case.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 3):
is it possible for Israel to Abandon the essetially Illegal settlements in the West Bank?

I should think so if the Palestineans manage to come to terms with the continued existence of Israel and it's long term future. Ideally the settlers would be offered the opportunity to stay and be productive members of that society. Make it economic rather than religious and it makes things much clearer and more logical.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 3):
is it just a false dream on my part after the world saw the "horrors" of removing settlers from Gaza

It could be real trouble.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 1724 times:

Although I am glad they are having the summit ... I still cant get around ...

" Peace for us means the destruction of Israel ... a war that will lasts for generations to come"

" Victory for us means the Palestinian flag flying over Jerusalem..and all of Palestine"

Fatah founder ... Yasser Arafat .


Palestine has its place in the identity of all Muslims .... having the Jews in occupation is just something that they will never accept... never .

Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 2):
To me this is all about trying to fish some slivers of 'legacy' after years of the Iraq debacle

Oh you have it all figured out dont you ? thats apparent. SSGT Maupin did not die for a debacle you fool.. apologize for him. Your opinion is that ,,yours ,..keep it.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 1711 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
" Victory for us means the Palestinian flag flying over Jerusalem..and all of Palestine"

Jerusalem; Occupied Palestinian Territory. I wrote that in caps because thats how the the UN, besides others see it.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
Palestine has its place in the identity of all Muslims

And whats your problem with that???

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
having the Jews in occupation is just something that they will never accept... never .

What a blatantly discriminating statement in a rubbish post. NO occupation should EVER be accepted. No reason for the word 'Jew' there.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 3):
Just wondering, is it possible for Israel to Abandon the essetially Illegal settlements in the West Bank? or is it just a false dream on my part after the world saw the "horrors" of removing settlers from Gaza

The 'horrors' were seen not because settlements were reduced, they were just moved. See the data of that year, Israel ended up gaining more land that they gave up. It was consolidation, they moved the settlements closer.
All in all what you brought up is at the core of the issue along with refugees and occupation. Don't expect any of those issues to be brought up. Am I being pessimistic?? Maybe. But until something real comes out of this, I will remain that way. The only possible hope was one statement from Olmert regarding Israeli willingness to talk on key issues, and he mentioned Jerusalem. If nothing is built on that, than the only thing to be gained will be the weight of the delegates by eating the dinners at the conference.

There will be no peace without justice, IMO.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 1):
Even though the Israelis and their neighbors have been relatively quiet for a little while

Quiet!! Yeah since the Palestinians don't count for anything, I don't recall any Israeli death for a while. As for the Palestinians I think there were air raids just this week? And see the websites of the human rights organisations and you will find stuff happening daily including settlement expansion, building of the apartheid wall etc. But yes its been quiet even more so in Gaza, there is no power.


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months ago) and read 1707 times:



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
No reason for the word 'Jew' there.

OK OK,, Take the word Jew out ... add Israeli. Hamas has already stated, confirmed my point this week... so it kinda takes the rubbish out of my post... Or at least validates the rubbish.

Sorry Bravo .. I just dont see Peace happening without a complete removal of Israel. I think that their will always be elements their that will never accept coexistence. And this applies to both sides unfortunately. I was just in Israel 2 moths ago , and I spoke with a few young Israelis who sounded pretty hateful of the Palestinians and Hezbollah. I was uncomfortable with some of their comments , but I guess its the sad effect of being raised their.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months ago) and read 1706 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):

This post I can agree with more. Sorry for being as pointy as I was. I'll post again in a few hours time, I was about to leave when I saw your reply.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months ago) and read 1700 times:



Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
Make it economic rather than religious and it makes things much clearer and more logical.

Some of those settlers are religious fanatics who wont move till they die, they are convinced its God's divine plan. Problems ahead. Not to mention, I believe there are over 300,000 Israelis in Palestinian territories.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
There will be no peace without justice, IMO.

True



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1685 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
There will be no peace without justice, IMO.

And there's the problem. Everyone has a different idea of justice and want their revenge/satisfaction prior to moving on.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 9):
Some of those settlers are religious fanatics who wont move till they die

That's what I meant when I said problems.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3503 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1675 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):

What a blatantly discriminating statement in a rubbish post. NO occupation should EVER be accepted. No reason for the word 'Jew' there.

Spot on. People hold back no punches when it comes to the Palestinians, but there are few here who wouldn't resist a comparable occupation of their own homelands.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
The 'horrors' were seen not because settlements were reduced, they were just moved. See the data of that year, Israel ended up gaining more land that they gave up. It was consolidation, they moved the settlements closer.
All in all what you brought up is at the core of the issue along with refugees and occupation. Don't expect any of those issues to be brought up.

I'm not optimistic either--George Bush talking about Middle East "peace" would be incredibly comical if the realities of the current situation in that region weren't so crushingly depressing. The U.S. government likes to talk about "no new settlements," but it's never done anything about them. The military aid keeps coming and the situation continues to deteriorate. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the result of this conference was a repeat of Camp David, with the Palestinians rejecting a non-contiguous, settlement-perforated "state" with little control of their resources/territory. Of course, they will be soundly lambasted as being against peace for doing so once again. I listened to Bush's speech on this earlier this morning--virtually every call he made for concessions was for Palestinian concessions. No abandonment of Israeli settlements, no end to Palestinian bantustans. I can already see where this is going.

[Edited 2007-11-27 14:12:40]


Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1663 times:



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
repeat of Camp David, with the Palestinians rejecting a non-contiguous, settlement-perforated "state" with little control of their resources/territory. Of course, they will be soundly lambasted as being against peace for doing so once again

precisely.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
No abandonment of Israeli settlements

Palestine can never be "free" with these settlements. That is Israel's way of asserting their dominance.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1662 times:



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
Spot on. People hold back no punches when it comes to the Palestinians

I have lived their ,, I have seen Jews get along with Arabs (thats what we called them.) . I have seen Israeli society which included Arab Israeli citizens . I have been to weddings where Arabs and Jews drank together and laughed about each other. I have not seen this same openness in a Fatah / Hamas / Islamic Jihad society .. have you. ?

I believe that Israelis and Palestinians could have lived together in greater Palestinian state. My hope of that ever happening now is dim. Both sides deserve blame for it , but I believe that the Israelis were more willing than the other side . JMHO



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3503 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1658 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 13):

I have lived their ,, I have seen Jews get along with Arabs (thats what we called them.) . I have seen Israeli society which included Arab Israeli citizens . I have been to weddings where Arabs and Jews drank together and laughed about each other. I have not seen this same openness in a Fatah / Hamas / Islamic Jihad society .. have you. ?

I've never lived there, but I'm well aware that there are people on both sides who wish to live in harmony with one another and that there are robust peace movements and cooperation groups in the region whose efforts for peace should be lauded. I don't see the same openness in Fatah/Hamas, but the power of those groups can be directly traced to Palestinian disgust with the policies of the hyper-Zionist regimes that have occupied Tel-Aviv in recent history--regimes who I can assure you are just as unopen to a single Israeli-Palestinian state as Fatah and Hamas are.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 13):
I believe that Israelis and Palestinians could have lived together in greater Palestinian state.

As do I. Unfortunately, Zionist policies in the region (and the Islamic blowback they have spawned) have lead us to a point where many, if not most Palestinians and Israelis are so frustrated and angry with the situation there that this option is unlikely to be entertained. The roots of the Israeli state lie in Zionism, and Zionism leaves no room for a unified Israeli-Palestinian state.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8124 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1650 times:



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 14):
The roots of the Israeli state lie in Zionism, and Zionism leaves no room for a unified Israeli-Palestinian state.



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
The only possible hope was one statement from Olmert regarding Israeli willingness to talk on key issues, and he mentioned Jerusalem

Hence a legitimate concern that if Olmert goes very far with any kind of overtures he will meet Rabin's fate.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1642 times:



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 14):
Palestinian disgust with the policies of the hyper-Zionist regimes that have occupied Tel-Aviv in recent history--regimes who I can assure you are just as unopen to a single Israeli-Palestinian state as Fatah and Hamas are.

At this point you may be correct , these are people born of war. These are baby boomers who grew up fighting for their homes. I once road on tractors in the Kibbutz that needed armor plating because Palestinian sappers would hang grenades from tomato plants at night. Then during the next day Palestinian would come and buy or trade for the food grown on the once barren land. The land once good for maybe goat grazing if the rains came now fed thousands of people Jews, Muslims alike.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 14):
The roots of the Israeli state lie in Zionism, and Zionism leaves no room for a unified Israeli-Palestinian state.



Zionism created in the ovens of Europe maybe. But they fought for their lands in Israel , and won. The Arabs have tried and tried to kill them and push them into the sea ... yet you blame all of this on one side. Why ? Injustices ? Its to complicated for that mere idea .



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1633 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
Zionism created in the ovens of Europe maybe

Read up. Zionism started in in the 1880's with Herzl not in response to any actions by the Third Reich.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3503 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1629 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):

At this point you may be correct , these are people born of war. These are baby boomers who grew up fighting for their homes.

A truth that no doubt exacerbates the tensions, but they're also people indentured to ideology. Just listen to any interview with a settler in occupied Palestine--they don't care how bad it's getting for the Palestinians there, they're absolutely convinced they're justified in taking the land.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
The land once good for maybe goat grazing if the rains came now fed thousands of people Jews, Muslims alike.

Yes--because Israel is undertaking unsustainable water use practices in a region with very little in the way of water resources. Control over aquifers alone was probably enough for Arafat to reject Israel's "generous" offer of a Palestinian state back at Camp David, and it's quite likely that as time goes on, control over water in that area is going to lead to even more violence. This whole romantic notion of Israel "making the desert bloom" gets old pretty quickly.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):

Zionism created in the ovens of Europe maybe.

What LAXspotter said.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
But they fought for their lands in Israel , and won.

"Their" lands in Israel. Sure. I'm not going to challenge the holiness of Jerusalem or the region, but we all know who was living on those lands pre-1948. I absolutely refuse to believe that the establishment of a Zionist state on "empty land" (where have we heard that before?) was the only (let alone best) way to establish a large Jewish community in the holy land.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
The Arabs have tried and tried to kill them and push them into the sea ... yet you blame all of this on one side.

I don't condone violence on either side, but Israel has sown the overwhelming majority of the aggression in this conflict. The proof of this is so abundant that I don't feel like I should have to repeat it here, but I'll provide some clarification shortly.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1625 times:



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
a Zionist state on "empty land" (where have we heard that before?)

The myth further extended by the BS movement of the Religious Right's unwavering support for Zionism leaving their own Christian brothers and Sisters within Palestine to Perish, or do they not know that there are Palestinian Christians.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1612 times:



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
Yeah since the Palestinians don't count for anything, I don't recall any Israeli death for a while.

Some are still thinking that somehow a death for a death is going to make things right in this world? Childish! It would seem that most of the recent deaths of Palestinians are at the hands of foreign governments fighting them in refugee camps, not by the Israeli's.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
What a blatantly discriminating statement in a rubbish post. NO occupation should EVER be accepted. No reason for the word 'Jew' there.

A very broad and ambiguous statement! Perfect rhetoric of a politician. You must change careers. So, in practice we are all on "occupied" land. Aussies in Australia, whites in SA, all americans in the US, etc. etc. etc. I believe that this was already discussed ad nasueam this week. Perhaps we should all pack up and move to Antartica. Hopefully the penguins won't be able to import any C4!

These issues need to be looked at with pragmatism and compassion. Not with emotion and reaction.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
But they fought for their lands in Israel , and won. The Arabs have tried and tried to kill them and push them into the sea ... yet you blame all of this on one side. Why ? Injustices ? Its to complicated for that mere idea .

Absolutely. Zionism has its own problems of racism and fanaticism but zionism is not to blame! Einstein was a zionist. I don't see how some on here can claim that all zionists are coldhearted land grabbing racists. Zionism is a movement for a Jewish state. That is all. Most zionists do no agree with the illegal settlers or for the expansion of Israel.

Much like most muslims don't hope for the destruction of Israel? I don't know.

It is a complicated issue and the people who ask for destruction of Israel have always been quick to make zionists scapegoats as the origin of evil in the world.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):

Zionism created in the ovens of Europe maybe.

What LAXspotter said.

Very true. But keep in mind that WWII is what created the mass exodus and also inclined Israel to declare itself.

After the war in 1967 the land that was gained was used as a buffer against further attacks. The Sinai Peninsula previously had UN troops to act as a buffer zone until they were kicked out by Egypt. Sinai and the Gaza strip was a new buffer zone in case there were further incursions by Egypt. It was necessary for the defense of Israel.

In order to allow a defense of the land without a huge military presence, Israel allowed settlers in to some parts. It would not have stopped an all out attack, but it would have clearly slowed down forces to give enough time for the IDF to mount a potent counter-attack. This is the part that is history.

That brings us today. I do not believe that there will be an attack by Egypt anymore. Israel has clearly been giving large portions of the land back to the palestinians. In fact Hamas has taken control of some of the areas with no Israeli presence. Israel has been releasing the prisoners that many opposition groups have been asking them to do for a long time. Israel has recently (against the exhortion of the IDF leaders) allowed supplying the Palestinian government with troop carriers and Russian weapons. Israel has also allowed Gaza exporting of agricultural crops again. Israel has recently made strong statements concerning the illegal settlers.

The talks are expected to give half of Jerusalem to the Palestinians as well as large sections of land. The Israeli's are also expected to give concessions on controlling any new settlements and bringing some back under control.

It would seem that Israel has been making large strides towards heralding peace in the ME. All they are asking for is peace and recognition of Isreal.

I actually think that the talks will be successful in terms of agreements (much like Camp David). However, I am concerned that the actions after will be different than the agreement (much like Camp David).

I seriously doubt the intentions of most of the Islamic countries to follow the course of an agreement brought about by Mr. Abbas, who is seen as a pawn of the "Zionists and Americans" by most Arabs and muslims. Perhaps he is at that. But if his intent is for peace in the area and to give Palestinians the land and respect from Israel that they deserve, I think that most Palestinians don't care. Most just want a peaceful life now. And most suspect Mr. Olmert and his "zionist" thoughts. But what if all he wants is for equity, peace, and harmony for the people of his land as well? If he realizes that these large concessions are necessary to bring peace to his land, then good for him!

It would seem to me that the people who want peace the most are the ones who live there and if concessions can be made by both sides, then great! And with that people can shove their negative "zionist" labels where the sun doesn't shine. It would seem as these people, who don't live there, are expecting Israel to act in the negative before anything has even been decided.

If the talks are productive and Israel acts in accordanance with the talks, I hope that the rest of the Arab world acts in accordanance as well. If the same bs continues after Israel has made such an effort, it will indeed prove all of you pessimists right.


User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3503 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1603 times:



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):

That brings us today. I do not believe that there will be an attack by Egypt anymore.

Egypt is the second largest recipient of U.S. military aid--a fact that insures you are correct. I don't need to tell you who is number one.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
Israel has clearly been giving large portions of the land back to the palestinians. In fact Hamas has taken control of some of the areas with no Israeli presence. Israel has been releasing the prisoners that many opposition groups have been asking them to do for a long time. Israel has recently (against the exhortion of the IDF leaders) allowed supplying the Palestinian government with troop carriers and Russian weapons. Israel has also allowed Gaza exporting of agricultural crops again. Israel has recently made strong statements concerning the illegal settlers.

I'd be interested in seeing some sources for this if you've got them handy. I've heard nothing to this effect.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):

I seriously doubt the intentions of most of the Islamic countries to follow the course of an agreement brought about by Mr. Abbas, who is seen as a pawn of the "Zionists and Americans" by most Arabs and muslims.

Let's take Hezbollah in Lebanon for example. Nasrallah and co. don't regard Israel as a legitimate state and don't believe it ought to exist. Nobody disputes that. However, Nasrallah has also said--on many occasions--that Hezbollah will accept whatever settlement the Palestinians accept, even though you can bet he won't like it. Same goes for Iran. Khamenei accepts the Arab League's position on the issue--normalization of Palestinian relations with Israel under a two-state settlement. The two-state settlement has effectively been international consensus for the past thirty years--the only parties that have historically kept it from progressing have been Israel and the United States.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
It would seem as these people, who don't live there, are expecting Israel to act in the negative before anything has even been decided.

We seem to have a different reading of both the history of the conflict and its current state. Nothing that's happened in the past gives me any reason to believe that Israel is going to make any meaningful efforts to abandon their settlements and withdraw from the occupied territories.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1597 times:



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 21):
We seem to have a different reading of both the history of the conflict and its current state.

I have many "readings" and I know not to fall into the typical "evil zionist" prejudices that have caused harm to the whole situation. Hamas is loosing popularity because of their inability to govern Gaza (one of the territories left by Israel). True, Israel has a blockade but that is beside the fact. It would seem Hamas has been killing more Palestinians than Israel as well.

Here's 6 at a Fatah rally. After they shot a protestors they arrested quite a few. It would seem they are getting desperate as Fatah is offering a better way with relations from Israel.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/12/2088856.htm

I know its hard for alot of people, who have gone to liberal arts classes and have been indoctorined since the beginning with anti-zionist rhetoric, to understand that Israel is offering an olive branch. Its is also difficult for them to understand that Israel is only half the battle. Many arabs need this conflict.


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1595 times:



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 21):
Nothing that's happened in the past gives me any reason to believe that Israel is going to make any meaningful efforts to abandon their settlements and withdraw from the occupied territories.

I never said they would abandon all of their settlements. Some of them in certain areas will need to be moved. Many won't. We will see. I have a feeling there will be a historic agreement. Again, I'm not sure how either side will act though.


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1592 times:



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 21):
The two-state settlement has effectively been international consensus for the past thirty years--the only parties that have historically kept it from progressing have been Israel and the United States.

You need to read up on some history. Camp David did not turn out like Carter wanted. He admonished Israel for not following through with what was expected. And what do you think the US government has been backing since Clinton more than a decade ago? We have supplied Israel with weapons, but we have been plying for two states since the 70's.


25 Post contains images Bravo45 : Wow! I have to admit, much of what I intended to mentioned has already been touched on. Well yeah I see your point. But I think if we stick to the cod
26 Gunsontheroof : I don't look at it as an "evil Zionist" prejudice--I simply can't get behind the idea of a Jewish state anymore than I can get behind the idea of an
27 Allstarflyer : Don't forget who was in charge, though, over the land, which was Britain. And the Brits are the ones who made provision for Israel to come into being
28 Fumanchewd : Yeah. I felt the same when you mentioned May Day a few months back. Keep taking your classes! I am glad to know that you are incorrect in your unsubs
29 Gunsontheroof : Ah yes, I recall that. Would you believe that I've since graduated? HAS. Not HAD. U.S. military aid to Israel has increased substantially since then.
30 Post contains images Fumanchewd : CONGRATULATIONS! Not being condescending, you are an intelligent young man. Please continue reading and learning beyond your degree! I assure you tha
31 N229NW : No, they are asking (or rather just doing it without asking) to keep the best land, the expensive settlement construction they have continued to buil
32 Post contains images RJdxer : That didn't take long at all. It always has to be about the legacy doesn't it? Neither side has enough of their respective populations ready to make
33 RJpieces : This thread is nice in that it has remained peaceful so far, but I would like to point out that all of the above posts presume that Israel's settlemen
34 Bravo45 : And who thought that way you, yourself called childish?? Broad? Yes. Ambiguous? What!!! NO!! Rhetoric? NO. Just one rule for all rather than a double
35 Imiakhtar : Sad really that after 40 years of occupation and numerous UN and court rulings, nothing has been done to resolve the situation and the plight of milli
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
First Congolese Free Election In 40 Years posted Mon Dec 19 2005 18:01:11 by MaverickM11
First Michigan Wolverine Spotted In 200 Years! posted Thu Feb 26 2004 04:58:25 by Maiznblu_757
Things Learned In 2 Years In Law Enforcement posted Fri Aug 31 2007 16:03:15 by CaptOveur
Saudi Arabia Hosts First Israeli Journalist First posted Thu Mar 29 2007 23:29:54 by RJpieces
Half Ton Man Leaves Home 1st Time In 5 Years posted Thu Mar 8 2007 23:56:14 by LASOctoberB6
Last Second Mini-Meet In ATL At PDK:1800 Tonight! posted Wed Oct 18 2006 21:35:05 by DL021
Reggie Bush Gets First NFL Touchdown On A Punt Ret posted Sun Oct 8 2006 22:08:40 by Tom in NO
Laura Bush Moved Out Of The WH In June? posted Tue Sep 19 2006 04:47:54 by RJpieces
Join Me For A Drink In YYC posted Wed Apr 26 2006 00:49:33 by Ilikeyyc
U.S. Navy Plans 32 More Ships, 51 New In 5 Years posted Wed Feb 8 2006 08:38:48 by AerospaceFan