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Chavez And Venezuela  
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2447 times:

From YouTube.

Watch them in order:







With all his moves, HC is a menace. Plain and Simple.

143 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

I feel sorry for the citizens of Venezuela. I know some of them might feel positively about Chavez, but I really don't think he has the people's best interest in mind. Another loudmouth like the North Korean dictator that needs to have a sock stuffed in his mouth and repeatedly pissed on by a mad poodle.

User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2429 times:

Crisis in the Americas
A Page Out of Washington's Propaganda Playbook on Venezuela


Excerpt:

"The movie, like a page straight out of the OPD, attempts to link Chavez to terrorism, drug-trafficking, violence, despotism, Cuban communism, stolen elections, the axis of evil, and "radical Islam" with quick sound-bites, Orwellian double-speak, and an association of non-related, but negative images and themes. Of course, there is no hard evidence.

It opens with the voice of US President George W. Bush,

"My fellow citizens, Americans have known surprise attacks, but never before on thousands of citizens... We are a country awakened to danger, and called to defend freedom."

Laid on top of the audio are images from 9-11, and footage from fighting in the middle east, as if attempting to make the subconscious connection from the first moment that somehow Venezuela is supporting terrorists, or perhaps had something to do with the 9-11 attacks.

Bush continues, "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists,"

The screen zooms in on a map of Venezuela.
"

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=14228

As always, the usual bunch on this forum is more impressed with cheap propaganda and outright lies then with the actual facts. In that respect, nothing has changed during my voluntary absence from this board.  eyebrow 



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8970 posts, RR: 39
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2425 times:

Well, I have very mixed reviews on the videos above. Interventionism is a very bad idea as it will only add fuel to the fire of the leftists, such as Chavez, Morales and Castro, and others that could rise in the future. It would only prolong the problem.


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8970 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2418 times:



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 2):

At the same time, it's hard to take your source very seriously when it was founded by a guy described as a "market abolitionist" and who promotes central economic planning. At least for me anyhow.

But I do completely understand and agree on where they came from with the comments above.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

It is all about common sense. Chavez and his policies are not cotton candy. It is a simple fact that he is curtailing the civiel liberties of the Venezuelan people.

User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2412 times:



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 2):
As always, the usual bunch on this forum is more impressed with cheap propaganda and outright lies then with the actual facts. In that respect, nothing has changed during my voluntary absence from this board.

All I know is what I have seen and heard from Chavez, and I base my opinions on those things. Now, why don't you tell us who you consider to be "the usual bunch".


User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2388 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
At the same time, it's hard to take your source very seriously when it was founded by a guy described as a "market abolitionist" and who promotes central economic planning. At least for me anyhow.

Not sure if you are referring to the site I linked to or to the author of the article. Either way, the article is based on actual facts (with a long list of references) and does not employ propagandistic tactics in order to impress its audience.

Quoting Queso (Reply 6):
Now, why don't you tell us who you consider to be "the usual bunch".

That's pretty clear, I'd say:

Quoting Queso (Reply 6):
All I know is what I have seen and heard from Chavez, and I base my opinions on those things.

The movie is full of half-truth and outright lies as the article I linked to indicates. And on that you are going to base your opinion? Just like that? No questions asked?

When you watch pure propaganda stuff like this and, what's worse, take it for real, your opinions are inevitably going to be affected. Already you are doing exactly what the makers of this movie wanted you to do, you are comparing Chavez to the dictator of North Korea, while completely ignoring the facts about the democratic election which made Chavez the head of state of Venezuela.

This movie was made by an organization which back in the '80's supported and defenfed military dictatorships throughout Central- and South America. They even made a movie back then equally titled "Attack on the Americas" but with a slightly different message when it comes to supporting dictators. I do not believe this organization (the American Security Council Foundation, formerly known as the American Security Council) is the most appropriate to warn us of dictators, either real or imagined!



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2384 times:



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 7):

You must think that the sunshine out of Chavez's ass every morning too.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8970 posts, RR: 39
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2376 times:



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 7):

Yeah I was talking about the website, my bad.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2363 times:



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 7):
The movie is full of half-truth and outright lies as the article I linked to indicates. And on that you are going to base your opinion? Just like that? No questions asked?

Do you really think the videos that were posted in this thread are the ONLY exposure I have had to Hugo Chavez and his rantings? Maybe you get all of the information you base your opinions on from a single source, but I don't. He's a wacko, he's a loudmouth and if you don't think he is maybe you need to broaden your own sources of information.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 7):
Quoting Queso (Reply 6):
Now, why don't you tell us who you consider to be "the usual bunch".

That's pretty clear, I'd say

No, that's not clear. It's your trademark to make an insinuation like this without basis and not back it up when called on it. Tell us who you consider to be "the usual bunch".


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2926 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

the video does seem to be very biased and filled with half-truths so I would not take it too seriously, but there are many here that claim that Chavez is in some ways doing more harm to Venezuela than good so I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2338 times:



Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
He's a wacko, he's a loudmouth

And with his rants, Chávez is not only putting the people in Venezuela, but also the people in other Latin American countries in danger.

Here in Costa Rica, we have to deal with Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega, who used to be dictator during the Sandinista Regime and has suddenly won the elections last year, on an agenda that sees him more as a reformist. But guess what, Schoenorama: Ortega hasn't changed at all! Just recently he invited Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to a state visit to Nicaragua, plus Ortega is a close ally of Hugo Chávez. It's only a matter of time until Ortega visits the DPRK as well. With Chávez's influence in Costa Rica's northern neighbour, and with a president down here who's the complete opposite of Chávez, it's no wonder that tensions between the two countries are higher than ever, and that is something that convinced me that Costa Rica should get away from its belief that having no military is going to keep them safe and that they should reinstate the army again, because this country needs to think of its own national security in these times. And let's face it: maybe Costa Rica was strategic to the Americans during the Sandinista regime, but nowadays, Panama and Colombia are strategically more important to the US in the region, and if Costa Rica was attacked by Nicaragua, the country would thus be a sitting duck.

But back on topic, Schoenorama, it is clear that by you living comfortably in Alicante, Spain, you have not seen enough to pass true judgement on Chávez. I live in Central America, and there are quite a few Veneuzuelans and Latin Americans who live all over the continent, who in some way or the other were exposed to Hugo Chávez's 21st Century Socialism (aka Neocommunism). Chávez has ordered the shooting of his fellow countrymen with live ammunition in 2002, he is now trying to seek indefinite re-election to become President for Life in Venezuela, and all those who oppose him openly become second class citizens, get their right to work and the right to a fair living revoked because they spoke out against Chávez, television stations that were critical of him are being shut down, and finally freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are no more. Didn't Spain have to go through something similar when the Generalisimo was still in power, Karel? Or did you skip that chapter in Spanish history?


User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2325 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
I live in Central America

Thanks a lot for your insight, LTU. Good post.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2301 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):

So in your opinion, will this upcoming election go fairly??

I know polling is showing that the people are opposed, but what if magically enough votes are "found" the day of the election to give Chavez the power he wants.

Will the people cry foul? Will they see it for what it was: fraud?

-UH60


User currently offlineMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2287 times:

If I didnt have my first law school Finals on Monday I would do something to protest and show my discontent with this BS.

I hope Venezuelans revolt, but they wont.



"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2285 times:



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
So in your opinion, will this upcoming election go fairly??

Absolutely not. Chávez isn't someone who's going to play clean. He'll find a way to manipulate the results in such a way that people will have a hard time crying foul play.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
what if magically enough votes are "found" the day of the election to give Chavez the power he wants.

Chávez already "bribed" the poorer into voting for him during the previous presidential election by serving them soups and other things, so the poor will be critical.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
Will the people cry foul?

Let me put it this way: If Chávez loses the referendum, either it will be he who will cry fouplay, or he accepts the result while he gets the people from the Electoral commision to declare it null and void and have a re-vote. That being said, if he wins the vote, then the people will have a hard time to cry foulplay without getting beaten up by police and military. Those who go on TV to express their rejection for the result will, if they are Venezuelans, become second class citizen and will have any chance of a reasonable living stripped away, just as it happened with those who demanded the recall around 2004 and lost the recall. Being a second class citizen in Venezuela is probably almost the same as being a persona non grata.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
Will they see it for what it was: fraud?

I hope so, however I'm afraid that they're opinion will be nothing but a sidenote in the Venezuelan press if Chávez wins the referendum.


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2271 times:



Quoting Boomerang (Reply 2):
In that respect, nothing has changed during my voluntary absence from this board.

Volunatry absence?  Wink


User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2264 times:



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
Boomerang

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 


User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2250 times:



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 8):
You must think that the sunshine out of Chavez's ass every morning too.

No, I dont. Suprised?

Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
Do you really think the videos that were posted in this thread are the ONLY exposure I have had to Hugo Chavez and his rantings? Maybe you get all of the information you base your opinions on from a single source, but I don't.

No, I dont think those videos are your ONLY exposure. There's been lots of media reports lately about Chavez and Venezuela, and most of them treat Chavez in much the same way as this movie does. Funny how there isnt such a media uproar about actual dictators, like Musharraf or Putin, to name just two. I guess the popular phrase "you are either with us or against us" does not distinguish dictators from democratically elected heads of state.

Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
He's a wacko, he's a loudmouth and if you don't think he is maybe you need to broaden your own sources of information.

Of course he is a wacko! But come to think of it, I can think of some other democratically elected wacko's! In your first reply in this thread you stated that you 'felt sorry for the people of Venezuela and that you knew that some of them might feel positively about Chavez. Presidents do not get elected democratically when just "some of the people" feel positively about them! 56,2% of the votes in the elections of 1998 cannot be considered as "some people". In the 2004 'recall vote', 59% of the votes were for Chavez, again a number which cannot be simply expressed as "some people". In the 2006 elections, certified by the Organization of American States (OAS) and the Carter Center, an even higher number of the people of Venezuela voted for Chavez: 63%.

The only reason why there is all this hype lately about Chavez and Venezuela is because of Chavez' political leaning. There are many real undemocratically elected dictators in the world today who have committed and continue to commit far worse attrocities then the ones skillfully (but wrongfully) attributed in this particular video to Chavez, and who unfortunately do not get the media attention they deserve. And the only reason why We, the West, do not want to hear about these real dictators is because we need their oil or they serve us for other economical and/or political interests. In all those instances, our well-being is far more important to us then, often quite literally, the lives of a few million oppressed Saudi­s/Pakistanis/fill in whatever population we ignore for the sake of our own well-being.

Hypocrisy at its finest!

Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
No, that's not clear. It's your trademark to make an insinuation like this without basis and not back it up when called on it. Tell us who you consider to be "the usual bunch".

It wasn't an insinuation, it was simply a remark. And yes, congratulations, you are included in that "usual bunch".

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
Here in Costa Rica, we have to deal with Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega, who used to be dictator during the Sandinista Regime

Is that the same Sandinista Regime which removed dictator Anastasio Somoza Debayle in a popular rebelion?

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
But guess what, Schoenorama: Ortega hasn't changed at all!

Does that mean you'd prefer to live under an undemocratically elected dictator, like Somoza was?

In democratic countries, general elections never mean that 100% of the voters are going to be happy with the outcome. That does not happen in the US, not in Spain, not in Venezuela and not in Costa Rica either. There are always going to be people not happy with the results. That's how democracy works. You obviously do not like Daniel Ortega very much but he won the democratic elections none the less. Same happens with Chavez: he won, repeatedly. What we are seeing right now, and this video is a clear example of it (given also the particular and peculiar history of the organization which produced it) is the very same tactic "the right" has used whenever they did not like, for whatever reason, the outcome of a democratical election: call the elected leader who you dont like a communist/terrorist/dictator and accuse him of whatever you like without worrying too much about actual facts; the media is gonna swallow it anyway. Should that not work, there's always Plan B: finance & arm the political opposition and dont worry too much about Human Rights and the loss of civilian lives.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
But back on topic, Schoenorama, it is clear that by you living comfortably in Alicante, Spain

Is it that apparent?  Smile

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
you have not seen enough to pass true judgement on Chavez.



Actually, I also spend some time in Caracas although not under Chavez.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
Didn't Spain have to go through something similar when the Generalisimo was still in power, Karel? Or did you skip that chapter in Spanish history?

I actually skipped Spanish school alltogether.  Smile

There's no doubt on my mind that Chavez is doing some pretty wild things, some of which on a more then questionable democratic basis. But he is far from the brutal and dangerous dictator many who oppose him (for whatever reason) like to describe him. And I am convinced that had Chavez been right-leaning, none of these questionable democratic decisions would have dominated the media over the past few months (let alone deserve the 'honour' to have the above movie produced about them).



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2235 times:



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 22):
Is that the same Sandinista Regime which removed dictator Anastasio Somoza Debayle in a popular rebelion?

No, it's the same Sandinista Regime that installed a communist dictatorship in a so-called popular rebellion, forcing thousands of Nicaraguans to leave their homeland either to the United States or to Costa Rica, and right now, illegal immigration of Nicaraguans continues to be a hot topic in Costa Rica and has not just resulted in the San Juan river patrol dispute, but also that both countries imposed a visa requirement on each other. Bottom line: Costa Rica is still living through the aftermath of that uprising.

Yes, Somoza wasn't exactly democratic himself, but that doesn't mean Nicaragua should have changed one dictatorship for another. Castro also came to power through a popular rebellion in Cuba, forcing the also not exactly democratic president Fulgencio Batista out of power, and yet he turned things from bad to worse, in a way not even Batista would have been able to do. What you're suggesting is that in the case of Nicaragua, the people chose the lesser evil, but little did they know that this evil was even worse than the evil under Somoza. In the case of Cuba, Sandinista Nicaragua and today's Venezuela, a lesser evil was replaced with an even worse evil. In a nutshell, while it's politically preferable to replace one evil with a lesser evil, what has happened in these cases was the exact opposite.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2223 times:



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 22):
There's no doubt on my mind that Chavez is doing some pretty wild things, some of which on a more then questionable democratic basis.

And he keeps adding to that repertoire. The word we are looking for is 'precedent'. If a few years ago we would have told you that Chavez wanted to be a dictator, you would have laughed. Now that the proposed changes include the removal of presidential term limits, maybe you should take the warning signs more seriously.

As history tells us, Chavez is a 'follower' of Simon Bolivar. The same Bolivar whose overwhelming desire was the creation of a LatAm in the same vein as the US. Indeed, Colombia (google 'Gran Colombia') used to consist of Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Ecuador and Peru. Chavez has already meddled in their local elections, and there are rumors of support for the Colombian FARC. Do we perhaps see a trend?


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 2199 times:



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 5):
It is all about common sense. Chavez and his policies are not cotton candy. It is a simple fact that he is curtailing the civiel liberties of the Venezuelan people.

Well,this might interest you.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071129/...re_la_am_ca/venezuela_constitution



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 2187 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
No, it's the same Sandinista Regime that installed a communist dictatorship in a so-called popular rebellion

Yes, you are continuing the same propagandistic BS which gave the Contras so much support to fight the Sandinistas in the first place. Just call them Comunists.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
forcing thousands of Nicaraguans to leave their homeland either to the United States or to Costa Rica

You fail to mention that those who fled the country and went to the United States or Costa Rica were primarily those who had previously supported the dictator and/or the Contras and who had benefit greatly from the oppresive regime. Somoza himself fled to Miami. I personally do not have any pity for those who supported ruthless dictators.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
Bottom line: Costa Rica is still living through the aftermath of that uprising.

Costa Rica played an active part in the uprising: not only did it 'allow' the Sandinistas to obtain weapons through Costa Rica, it also hosted the "Puntarenas Pact" attended by Daniel Ortega, Moises Hassan Morales, Sergio Ramirez, Alfonso Robelo and Violeta Barrios de Chamorro (all representing their individual political parties except Violeta). This group formed the provisional government in exile.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
Yes, Somoza wasn't exactly democratic himself, but that doesn't mean Nicaragua should have changed one dictatorship for another.

By no means can Ortega's rule be compared with any of the 3 dictatorial regimes of the Somoza dictators.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
yet he turned things from bad to worse, in a way not even Batista would have been able to do

I dont agree there (but I guess you already knew that  Smile ). Given to chose, I'd rather live under Castro then under Batista.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
What you're suggesting is that in the case of Nicaragua, the people chose the lesser evil, but little did they know that this evil was even worse than the evil under Somoza.

I did not say they chose the lesser evil. They chose what they wanted already a long time but never were able to achieve because of the historical backing by the US of Somoza and, later, the Contras. That all changed the moment Jimmy Carter became the US President. Obviously, I do not agree with your claim that what/who replaced Somoza was worse. The Somoza's had a typical dictatorial regime supported only by a minority (primarily the rich who through corruption amassed much of the countries economy). Opposition was dealt with swiftly and brutally, like in any dictatorial regime. It was Somoza who Franklin D. Roosevelt was referring to when he spoke his famous words: "He might be a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch". Post-rebelion governments might not have been the best in Nicaragua, they can in no way be labelled worse then Somoza.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 21):
Now that the proposed changes include the removal of presidential term limits, maybe you should take the warning signs more seriously.

Real dictators dont bother to announce their intentions beforehand. They just do whatever they like. The only warning signs I have seen thusfar are the ones coming from those who are on the exact opposite political aisle as Chavez which, upon further examination (and not suprisingly), can at most be labelled as 'curious'. The day Chavez starts committing blatant genocide against his own people by starving them to death, or the moment he prohibits women from driving cars, that's the day when we all could thruthfully state Chavez' government is becomming undemocratic.



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2180 times:



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 23):
You fail to mention that those who fled the country and went to the United States or Costa Rica were primarily those who had previously supported the dictator and/or the Contras and who had benefit greatly from the oppresive regime.

What about all those people who tried to flee from poverty from Nicaragua under the communists, and still try to cross the San Juan river into Costa Rica in the search for a better life?

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 23):
Given to chose, I'd rather live under Castro then under Batista.

Suit yourself. I'm from Germany, so you should know how communism has affected our brothers and sisters in the East. I'm happy that I'm from the West, where we have experienced freedom and democracy ever since the founding of our Republic, while in the old DDR, people had to live off the whim of madmen such as Walter Ulbricht, Erich Honecker, and under the surveilance of the MfS (or STASI if you want). In the DDR, if there was even the suspicion that you were intending to commit "Republikflucht" (going illegally to the West) or that you're against the party, you would end up in a Zuchthaus for a few years. It wasn't until 40 years after the founding of the republic, 36 years after the bloody crushing of the July 17th uprising, and 28 years since the Berlin Wall was built that the people were finally able to assert themselves in the Monday Demonstrations and the mass exodus into Germany. People in the DDR had to suffer until unification in 1990, and some still do to this day. So, if you want to live in communism, that's fine with me. Just don't come complaining that you've been stripped of your civil liberties, because under communism, civil liberties are either highly restricted or non-existent.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 23):
The day Chavez starts committing blatant genocide against his own people by starving them to death, or the moment he prohibits women from driving cars, that's the day when we all could thruthfully state Chavez' government is becomming undemocratic.

Where does it say that you have to commit genocide to be declared undemocratic? That has to be the silliest part of your post. Honecker and Ulbricht didn't commit genocide, yet they were clearly undemocratic, even though the name DDR means Deutsche Demokratische Republik, or German Democratic Republic, and thus refers to a republic under democracy. Then again, democracy was just a punch line for them. During any Volkskammer election, either the votes were forged in favour of the SED, or you could only vote Yes or No in a list made up of candidates of the SED led "Nationale Front".


25 Post contains links Schoenorama : Poverty is not an issue which just 'happened' after the rebellion. It already existed, quite extensively, under Somoza. The rebellion itself in part
26 AndesSMF : Allright, then tell us WHY Chavez is pushing for an end to term limits. Eagerly await your response.
27 Baroque : And welcome back. I was not going to read the usual anti Hugo rants until I saw you had posted. I guess the problem with Hugo is that he is not "our"
28 LTU932 : Feeding the starving poor with a meal of soup, in exchange for a vote in an election, is bribery. As said before: the poor are nothing but a means to
29 Abrelosojos : = Every election people do sops for their constitutents. In some countries, people are "bribed" by "soups and other things" and in others, people are
30 LTU932 : Maybe, but the way I've seen it, Chávez has taken it to the extreme.
31 Mham001 : I'm not sure why you are so focused on an obscure video produced by an even more obscure group. We can find far worse slamming the current US adminis
32 Abrelosojos : = Extreme? Extreme my friend is those that suffered under Pinochet, Videla, Garcia Meza, Geisel, Trujillo, Garcia (Lucas and Langeurud), Duvalier, So
33 Abrelosojos : = Didn't Uribe change Colombia's 1-term limit in 2006? A rule that had been in place for 120 years. Chavez is no different than the rest. -A.
34 AndesSMF : Hmm... I don't remember any other LatAm leader, except for Castro, with such an interventionist streak as Chavez has. Or better yet, ANY other LatAm
35 LTU932 : I was not comparing Chávez with other South American dictators. What I meant by extreme is that he's taking a certain policy to the extreme when com
36 LTU932 : The difference between Uribe and Chávez is that Uribe isn't intending on abolishing any term limits. Also, since you bring this up, Oscar Arias also
37 Abrelosojos : = And the point is? = I thought I already replied in ... ... besides, Uribe has done it once. He will probably run for a 3rd term ... see, no differe
38 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = He is feeding people through soup kitchens is extreme ... but building near billion dollar bridges to nowhere to help certain people have super nic
39 AndesSMF : I personally don't give a damn whether he is equal from the tyrants of the past. He is a present time pimple in S. America, that is affecting many ot
40 Abrelosojos : = No one is using it as a justification. He is a "pimple" only to a certain sector of the populaton ... usually rich and thats why its uncomfortable
41 AndesSMF : I see, we have a socialist in our midst. Let me then ask you, I'd take it you don't employ any servants in your house, then?
42 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = Nope. And, I have a big house . Cheers, A. PS: Next time you are in CCS, AND I am there, welcome to come and inspect.
43 B752fanatic : I just wish to ask, in this thread is Abrelosojos the only Venezuelan living in Venezuela that is sharing his opinions about Chavez? or are there any
44 PPVRA : Then he sucks too, no different. It's nice people are finally standing up. I think there's a lot more to it, though. Chavez has disrespected a lot of
45 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = In full disclosure (and I dont think I have ever hidden this), I am from Liechtenstein ... and I live here. There are other Venezuelans on the foru
46 AndesSMF : That's pretty rare.
47 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = I know. They also make fun of the fact that I live in Altamira and take the subway. Social stereotypes are so overrated . People in CCS think I am
48 AndesSMF : I will always respect someone who stands by their beliefs. You and I well know that there are those socialists out there who cannot live w/o their he
49 Alberchico : That's the point I've been trying to make about Chavez. Despite some growing pains. there is still a chance he could change and do things for the bet
50 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = ...or even worse ... people who bad mouth Chavez while making billions. = Fair enough re: maids. I dont think having maids is a bad thing. Its how
51 Post contains images AndesSMF : As long as you give him unlimited time in power, right? Who? Thanks! It is all relative, I know! But you said so yourself...
52 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = When you are in CCS, I will introduce you to them. = No man. I was using your term to describe me ... hence the quotation marks . Cheers, A.
53 AndesSMF : OK. I stand corrected.
54 Baroque : My adventurous mind is am wondering what extreme soup feeding might be. Actually having thick nutritious hot soup is all I can come up with. Dancing
55 LTU932 : The problem is that whatever Chávez does, has an effect on all of the Americas, so it's difficult to just "leave" Venezuelans alone with the issue.
56 Post contains images Baroque : Dunno, after all the recent foreign policy successes, it seems to me that a spot of masterly inactivity might be just the go. I can give private clas
57 JJJ : This is something I've often heard but, from what I recall, the proposed modification just states that he can concur in the elections for as many tim
58 AndesSMF : And you don't find anything wrong with that?!
59 ME AVN FAN : -. Well, those US-American "experts" contradict each other in the widest way possible. And fewer and fewer people from INSIDE Venezuela can be found o
60 Miamiair : I have spent some time in Colombia, and if Uribe got the people to change the term limits AND get re-elected, it was not because the Colombian populac
61 JJJ : It's not up to me to decide. Mr. Chavez has been so kind to ask his own people, so we'll see the results and his reaction to those results.
62 Commavia : Frankly, while I feel very bad for Venezuela and its people, I'm (selfishly) excited about this Chavez guy. Not only is he great for comic relief beca
63 Post contains links and images Schoenorama : I haven't got a clue. But unlike real dictators, he's pushing for whatever he wants democratically. I guess Jesus Christ was a socialist too, in that
64 B752fanatic : I believe that in the UK and Spain for example, the PM doesn't have any term limits.
65 Post contains links PPVRA : Majoritarianism is pretty despicable. There's a reason we have constitutionally limited democracy. In fact, we are not even democracies, we are repub
66 Post contains images Baroque : Funny you should mention that B752. We were beginning to fear the indefinite rule thing in Aus until we sorted it out last Saturday! Howard was suppo
67 B752fanatic : Congrats! another sign of a true democracy in Aus then! Margaret Thatcher was going for the same "indefinite" rule in the UK, she had great popularit
68 Baroque : Thanks. May the democratic force go with you all (or yous as we would say!).
69 Abrelosojos : = Still better than a 10% elite taking away the rights of the other ninety in a dictatorship, or the kind of "democracy" many countries have had in t
70 PPVRA : Our crappy history of governments still doesn't justify more crappy governments. Everyone needs to be treated fairly. The government is for everyone
71 Mham001 : Maybe not made by the Russian Military Complex but Micheal Moore's movie did exactly that, it "employs propagandistic tactics to inform the audience
72 Abrelosojos : = Agreed completely. And this systematic abuse by the elites in Venezuela is the reason Chavez could get elected. Remember, Venezuela's socio-economi
73 Schoenorama : As despicable as Minoritarianism? ?? Not sure we are talking about the same thing here. I was referring to an earlier quote of you ("when a man gets
74 Miamiair : Maybe because certain liberties are being quashed. There is no free press, any protests are dealt with in draconian fashion, that's for starters.
75 Abrelosojos : = As opposed to in the past where most countries Latin press worked for the interests of the majority ... Cheers, A.
76 Post contains images B752fanatic : What do you mean, did they close all newspapers and all private TV channels? Have they put in jail the dissidents? Have they declared martial law? Ba
77 ME AVN FAN : republics can be democratic or dictatorial, and monarchies can be democratic. It is two different criteria. - According to Winston Churchill, democra
78 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = No. They were violated. MY cousin's brother's sister's father who migrated to Miami after losing his million dollar job told me so . -A.
79 Miamiair : You no doubt must work for the People's Bolivarian Ministry of Information.
80 Abrelosojos : = No. They could not afford my salary. -A.
81 Miamiair : Ah I get it, you must be HC's mistress. But with all the money you are letting on that you make, that is a very disproportionate to the poor there, s
82 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = Nope. HC couldn't afford me as well ... and he is definitely not my type . Though, I did move to this beautiful country for love . And, how do you
83 Miamiair : You are advocating socio-economic equality, yet are you practicing what you are preaching? Whoever reads your posts must think that El Loco is the las
84 ME AVN FAN : But he is a HE and therefore canNOT be a "mistress". Or did I miss something here ?
85 Abrelosojos : = Absolutely. I live by my principle of socio-economic equality everyday. Does that advocate that every person is equal? No. But what it does advocat
86 AndesSMF : Many communist countries also have elections. It doesn't make them right. Most countries do have term limits, but him removing term limits does not b
87 B752fanatic : I can't understand how the thread starter has not given us any arguments to prove his opinions about Chavez. If you could note he merely states two o
88 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = I do not think that is what he is advocating. = Oh Chavez is as guilty of it. However, re-read the arguments. He is just doing what every Latin lea
89 Baroque : Quite so. Rather the opposite. And there was me thinking I was being direct and not at all Delphic! But again, it is up to Venezuelans to do what the
90 JJJ : Elections in Venezuela are multi-party and believed to be generally fair or at least on a par to what's going on in the rest of LatAm. I think that's
91 B752fanatic : Didn't I hear somewhere that the station is operating, but via cable? so I suppose that if he wishes and as you people say he does not believe in fre
92 Abrelosojos : = I dont get this part. If a country choses communism, what is so wrong? I disagree with communism, but if the people were to chose it by elective me
93 Post contains images AndesSMF : Are you saying that dictators usually come from the left? Wrong. Ecuador now has a Chavez supported president. This has dried up foreign investment s
94 Abrelosojos : = No. Don't put words in my mouth? All I said was that your assessment that "Asian" leaders who had steered their country to prosperity were "right-w
95 ME AVN FAN : - If the elections were (will be) truly democratic, then people might one day believe that enough is enough and vote him out. This at least would be
96 B752fanatic : Well, I haven't sided with Chavez in this ordeal merely a bit skeptical in the opinions expressed by his detractors in this forum whom aren't not in
97 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = OMG. You are like my ideological brother  . I will be voting NO against the constitutional changes as well   ... but I love the arguments of the
98 AndesSMF : And how many people in Venezuela have cable? You have not participated in the other threads then, because I remarked that it took Europeans to defend
99 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = Thats because most of them perhaps belong to a certain class  . = My friend. You are not here in Venezuela ... as much against the elites views, t
100 B752fanatic : I don't know, but those who have cable can watch the channel and that's the point. There are other private channels that are free in Venezuela and th
101 Post contains links Abrelosojos : = Again, just to show that we have proof to back our claims, while a lot of the arguments made by some here (and you just have to read the posts) are
102 Post contains images PPVRA : Not as bad, but that's only quantitatively speaking. Doesn't mean anything. Does the majority have the right to enslave 49% of the population? Or eve
103 B752fanatic : Good that you mention, here in the University of Miami I have a few Latin friends, some of whom are Venezuelan. One of them is daughter of one big bu
104 Abrelosojos : = See. Why cant more people have sensible debate like you instead of meaningless bantor? Here is my question though ... how do you appear not to rail
105 Abrelosojos : = This girl is at least intelligent enough to see the difference, which a lot of elites cannot. I agree with you ... but EVERY real change in the wor
106 B752fanatic : Perhaps you are right, one difference from his Revolution is that there isn't that level of violence that is usually accompanied with Revolutions (le
107 Post contains images AndesSMF : Which ones? I am having a hard time tracking all points. You cannot simply take from the rich and give to the poor. As long as a good business climat
108 B752fanatic : You might be right, however there would always be poor as long as there are rich. Remember what Voltaire said: "The comfort of the rich depends on th
109 Abrelosojos : = Please re-read the postings and you will be able to find the same. Every point has been backed by data; I am yet to see the same data points to sup
110 Schoenorama : The typical right-wing BS. The actual facts (ie, post 76) give a very different picture. You are ignoring one important fact: whereas Michael Moore m
111 Luisde8cd : Abrelosojos, I'm quite amazed to read that. Do you hold dual-citizenship? Even though we do not see government censors at the major newspapers like i
112 Post contains images Schoenorama : OK, I finally got it To respond this and other outstanding issues, I am going to refer you to Abrelosojos' excellent post in reply 104 of which I'd l
113 Luisde8cd : And in Venezuela we are currently living with: desastrous left-wing policies, oppression and corruption and political discrimination and vote-buying
114 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = What are you shocked by? Me voting "NO" or holding dual-citizenship ? Besides, the whole dual-citizenship is SOOOO overrated ... thats why I have p
115 Abrelosojos : = PS: I wasn there in 2002. But I cant tell you from my experience this time protesting, I didnt feel unsafe. = Actually, most outside Venezuela soci
116 Post contains images Luisde8cd : Hey A, Chavez just said that if you vote NO, you will be voting for George W. Bush! Are you really sure about voting NO??? Saludos desde Monterrey, L
117 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = LOL. I think he has learnt this from Bush ... "you're with us or against us" rhetoric. But I think you need to give Venezuelans more credit ... peo
118 Post contains images PPVRA : Good point! The answer IMO is quite simple: respect. Respect for that whole laundry list of rights. It's a difficulty Martin Luther King can tell you
119 Cedars747 : I am with Chavez all the way ....... god bless my Hero CHAVEZ Alex!!!
120 Avianca : I am really asking me why you dont live in Venezuelan than... You would be very welcomed
121 Avianca : huuu ?? 5 ?? what countrys beside Vrnezuela and Lichtenstein???
122 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : the understanding and respect for democracy of the "ruler" of Liechtenstein are supposedly on a similar level with the one of Hugo Chavez. Whenever t
123 B752fanatic : I really wish to know what would the opposition do now after going against the reforms, would they embrace the 1999 constitution? after going against
124 Abrelosojos : Democracy has won. I have never been happier - and what a great slap on the face for all those right-wing eliteswho rally against my country saying el
125 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = I was born to a Spanish-Venezuelan dad and British-Canadian mom in Liechtenstein (so 5 passports). I hold Venezuela most to my heart, and here is w
126 ME AVN FAN : In regard to Liechtenstein, I still remember the old Prince of the FL, who was very well liked also in Switzerland and who had a clear respect for de
127 Abrelosojos : = But 30% is the HIGHEST ever vote in Swiss history by one party .... = Oh God, that would be horrible. ZRH is (along with AMS and BRU) the only nice
128 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = Hmmm ... what would be funny is thus ... so, I know the son (you know, current ruler) ... not really great, because everyone knows everyone ... and
129 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 129): = But 30% is the HIGHEST ever vote in Swiss history by one party .... Sure, and exactly in line with the warning of a
130 Abrelosojos : = OMG. We agree. Life is good. Cheers, A.
131 ME AVN FAN : In the 2nd round of the Senate-elections in Zurich the choice was between this Green woman and a person who I personally regard as an awful Neo-Nazi,
132 Post contains images Baroque : And a ruinous week for the foundations of GWB's foreign policy. Chavez behaving like a democrat and Iran not having had a nuclear weapons program sin
133 AndesSMF : Well, since Chavez said that a 'no' vote was a vote for GWB...
134 Falcon84 : That's funny shit, Baroque. It was a VICTORY for everyone in the Hemisphere except for the Chavez ass-kissers here on this forum, and those who suppo
135 Baroque : Not sure how it was a victory for everyone in a whole Hemisphere esp at 49:51 ish. As I had indicated earlier that I hoped it would be, it seems to h
136 AndesSMF : There are two distinct camps within LatAm, those with Chavez, and those against. It was a victory for the hemisphere.
137 Baroque : Oh well, that is OK. You don't think that your version might just be a bit more black and white than is justified by the rather colourful and nuanced
138 AndesSMF : They already have. You are late to the party. Two camps have been fighting presidential contests in LatAm for quite a while. The left and right wing.
139 AndesSMF : Well, did the Australian Labor Party not win with only 43% of the vote? Is that a victory or a defeat? After all, there are 57% who did not think is
140 Post contains images Baroque : Ah, there you go as RR would have said. Mayhap you do not understand the Aus voting system or mayhap you do and wish to misrepresent the results. The
141 AndesSMF : Exactly what I was trying to say before you did.
142 Sovietjet : I haven't taken the time to read the thread and this may have been covered but my opinion is....who cares? When has Venezuela ever been a threat to an
143 LTU932 : Hugo Chávez is a person who's dangerous to the region. Everything he does can have an effect on all of Latin America and even increase tension with
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