Airfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1475 times:
There has been a lot of instances where people have been tasered and the news media broadcasts the fact. Do you think police should not be issued tasers. Should training be more comprehensive in there use?
I think tasers are a great addition to the options police have in restraining people now a days. Remember the options you had before tasers came out were a lot worse then being tasered. You could pepper spray the perp but that didn't always work and was a bitch if you were in confined quarters. You could beat the perp with your stick but we all know how that looks to the public (Rodney King). You could shoot the suspect with obvious consequences.
I believe the media is over blowing this taser thing. What are your thoughts?
ManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 2995 posts, RR: 49 Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1468 times:
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Swiss police is just starting now using tasers, to avoid firearm accidents with even worse consequences. Until now, our police officers were faced with the usual problem: shoot the suspect and risk killing him, or let him go if unable to restrain him, but risk having a criminal on the run. Therefore, I'm all for tasers, if used in a proper manner, which I'm sure happens in 99% of all cases.
Of course abuses can and will happen, but IMHO it's a low price to pay and the advantages tasers bring outweigh this.
Queso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1455 times:
Tasers, PR-24 batons, flashlights, CS spray, handguns, long guns, shotguns.... they are all tools that have their place in law enforcement and self defense.
They can all be useful and they can all be abused. They all have consequences, sometimes adverse. What it all comes down to is if you stay out of trouble you'll never have to find out what the consequences of these tools are. If you break the law or attack someone who is forced to defend themselves, you expose yourself to experiencing the consequences and if those consequences end up being adverse or unrecoverable for you, you asked for it. Don't blame the tool for your own poor choice of behavior.
If they are abused, there are serious consequences for those who use them improperly. Again, don't blame the tool, blame the fool that used it.
Last time I checked more people survive getting tazed than survive getting shot. Take away my Tazer and my options as to how to stop some assmonkey from further infraction/endangerment of the public become more limited.
What 'obvious' consequences? The media losing their minds? Three days off with pay while IA looks at the case? A conscience? Getting sued by the scumbags surviving whatever? Nope . . . not losing any sleep over any of the above.
WildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2502 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1453 times:
I know didley squat about police work, but I still have a feeling that taser has a firm place in the cop's toolkit. However, it should be treated as a weapon and used when really necessary. Moreover, I'd expect the police to investigate every occurrence when something bad happened to the perp and use the results to improve the guidelines for taser deployment.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12677 posts, RR: 13 Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1444 times:
While 'tazers' are an important tool for police to use, we are seeing over time a number of it's own problems. Their primary use is when you have someone who is not armed and not responding to police demands in situations where the use of a club or gun would be excessive and a person needs to be secured by the police. Where the problems come in is as to the physical and psychological conditions of the person being secured. Those problems include, often in combination, drug use, mental illness and compromising health conditions, especially heart and respiratory conditions like asthma. Those problems may not be obvious to a police officer when they choose to escalate to using a tazer when securing a person. Another issue is that some outside law enforcement see tazers as a torture device, illegal under a wide range of laws especially when used excessively by some overzealous officer.
A growing number of lawsuits brought by those injured or by the estates of those that died when tazers were used is creating a chilling by police officer to use such weapons, putting them at risk, to try to same the local government $$$'s from lawsuits. Police may have to continue to use tazers, perhaps with better training as to how and when to use them until a better non- or low lethality device to control people is created. I also think all police officers that may use a tazer get zapped themselves in training to let them know the power and terrifying discomfort they create.
CaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1437 times:
Quoting Airfoilsguy (Thread starter): There has been a lot of instances where people have been tasered and the news media broadcasts the fact.
Yet they never broadcast the uses of OC spray or batons.. Because if they did that would be the entire newscast for the night. The simple fact is Tasers minimize injuries and save lives on both sides of the law. All these taserings would have previously been a use of OC spray, a hands on beatdown, or a shooting. In the hands on beatdown the officer is going to get hit a few times and possibly end up in the ER himself.
Yep.. Police had to use force, they must have been wrong because we all know a 20 year old male driving in a stolen car with an ounce of marijuana, 3 warrants, 15 crack rocks, and a greasy hi-point 9mm in his waistband posed no threat to a police officer who was pulling him over.
10 years ago that individual stood a very good chance of being shot. Today he stands a much better chance of getting tased instead and living to stand trial- where he will serve 1 month of a 10 year sentence and be back out on the street in no time.
If anything we should look at giving police MORE options, not taking options away.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13602 posts, RR: 63 Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1435 times:
I think while tasers have their role (just like guns, chemical mace, rubber bullets or batons) there seems to be a trend to rely too much on them.
As I have described in another thread, I recently watched some Irish (unarmed) security guards handle two agressive young men in fighting mood in a shopping mall in Dublin. the four security guards (after unsuccessfully trying to convince the young men to behave themselves) went in like rugby players, two each to one perp. Within 5 seconds both perps were on the ground, with a security guard sitting on each of them, while the other guards handcuffed them. Afterwards they were frogmarched in a painfull armlock to the manager's office to be picked up by the police. British and Irish police, bouncers and security guards, being traditionally unarmed (except in case of the police officers with a baton and pepper spray) are very good in physical confrontations and are usually able to subdue unarmed troublemakers without having to resort to distance weapons. I have also seen British police officers giving a demonstration in the use of a baton, not just the "hit 'em over the head" way, but tricks like using a Tonfa baton (the one with the side handle) to parry knife attacks or to hook into the legs to trip a running person. There even exists a way to use the tonfa stick to hook into the crotch of a person who refuses to cooperate in a very painfull way.
Toast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1430 times:
I have nothing against tasers per se, quite to the contrary. I think they are very effective tools, and much less dangerous than guns. While there have been rare incidents of cops going batshit and tasing people when less violent forms of restraint would have worked, AFAIK there has always been some sort of totally unnecessary provocation from the "victim". My experience tells me that if you don't behave like an asshole, you'll always, always, always be treated with respect by the cops, at least in first-world countries. Common sense is the key.
BTW, why so many people hate cops has always been a mystery to me. They provide the most important public service for fuck's sake. Assholes can be found anywhere to be sure but cops are by far the government employees I respect most, not because they are armed but because I find them on the whole very cool-headed, helpful, and responsible. Not sucking up to you a.net cops, but I've worked with the police for some time and I'll take their company any day over, say, lawyers.
CaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1409 times:
Quoting Toast (Reply 8): My experience tells me that if you don't behave like an asshole, you'll always, always, always be treated with respect by the cops, at least in first-world countries. Common sense is the key.
In fact, if you are the one person of the shift who is NOT a dick, you will probably get a warning. Give respect, get respect.
Amigocharlie From Switzerland, joined Oct 2007, 95 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1407 times:
A taser should only be used if the use of a shooting weapon is justified.
In that case, the taser would have to be on the same law base as a gun. The use of them has always got to be the last option (right before shooting).
Quoting Airfoilsguy (Thread starter):
I believe the media is over blowing this taser thing.
And playing right into the hands of the 'bleeding heart PC munching cops are all assholes' crowd.
CaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1404 times:
Quoting Amigocharlie (Reply 11): The use of them has always got to be the last option (right before shooting).
I would much rather an officer Tase someone than get into using impact weapons like a baton, or their own bare hands. When the police get into a furball with a bad guy they stand a good chance of losing any advantage they might have. In a hand to hand fight the bad guy is close enough to get the officers weapons away and is also close enough to hit the officer. I would rather have EMS come out to pull the Taser prongs out of a bad guy, than to pick up an officer with a broken nose, dislocated shoulder, or worse. Also, the officer with the injury might miss a few days of work which means his shift is down a man, or your tax dollars have to pay overtime for someone who is dog-ass tired from already working 8 hours to stay over another shift.
Baton training is to swing for the limbs. Say an officer is swinging at someone's arm. The bad guy is moving because its a fight, the bad guy gets hit square in the head with an Asp. An Asp is a pretty mean metal club- it will cause an injury, like maybe a fractured skull. Ok now the bad guy is going to the ER, probably going to have brain surgery, spend days in ICU.. It's going to be expensive. Oh and the officer, who was following his training but missed, is likely going to face administrative penalties and has about an even money shot at losing his job and may face criminal charges, even if the guy doesn't die.
If the officer had used a taser the bad guy would have been on the ground and in handcuffs, nobody goes to the hospital, and the officer can continue his career.
Toast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1388 times:
Quoting MD-90 (Reply 10): They are agents of the state and the state exists to control you.
I'm a libertarian and I resent a lot of shit coming from political power, but I have honestly never felt controlled by the police. Maybe that's because most basic laws do derive from common sense, and I've never felt the urge to harm people or property anyway. I break petty, stupid laws on a daily basis - jaywalking, not prolonging my residence permit on time, running my washing machine after 10 p.m., etc. But cops have never bothered me for those. At least where I live, they leave you very much alone and will never harass you without a very, very good reason. Actually, they exercise far less control over people than parents, teachers, employers and clergymen, to name a few. But even in the unlikely event of attracting their attention,
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13602 posts, RR: 63 Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1379 times:
CaptOveur, you are an American cop.
Now I have seen Irish and British police in action plenty of times. I have also seen Irish nightclub bouncers and security guards in action many times (with the irish and British culture of binge drinking, there are many people who can't hold their drink and start missbehaving once they are drunk). Irish bouncers are very proficient. If you go to a night club, you'll see them standing at the emtrance and around the dance floor, physically fit guys dressed in black pants, white shirt, tuxedo and bow tie, with an ear phone in one ear. They watch the surroundings like hawks and if somebody missbehaves, they come down on him like a ton of bricks. One tactic they use is overwhelming force, the aim is never give the troublemaker a sporting chance. Hit him by surprise and hit him hard. Before he knows what is going on he'll be in an armlock and thrown out off the door.
I think that the habit in Britain and Ireland of playing contact sports like rugby in school helps that the police officers, security guards and bouncers loose their fear of becoming physical.
Also, British and Irish cops traditionally do not carry distance weapons. They have to go in close and finish it fast.
CaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1364 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14): One tactic they use is overwhelming force, the aim is never give the troublemaker a sporting chance.
Fact is most departments here don't have the funds to put two officers in every patrol car. So at some point an officer is going to walk into something routine, and it is going to escalate fast. Backup is 5 minutes away on a good day. Overwhelming force is not always an option. We have an officer on my shift who is 5'2" and 120lbs with her gear on. If she goes up against a 6'6 350lb guy solo it isn't going to be pretty.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14): I think that the habit in Britain and Ireland of playing contact sports like rugby in school helps that the police officers, security guards and bouncers loose their fear of becoming physical.
Anyone who has been on patrol any amount of time knows someone or has themselves been in a situation where a bad guy had a weapon hidden that could not be seen initially and it was not hidden in one of the usual places. This weapon could be a gun, could be a knife, could be a club. Touching the guy to beat his face in so he will behave will almost certainly bring blood into the equation. This leads into our fear of bloodborne pathogens like hepatitis, HIV, AIDS, etc. Physically prepared for the fight or not we would really rather not get into something that might pose an immediate threat to our lives, or to our long term health. Also, bruises and casts on bad guys don't play well in court.
I see what you are saying, I really do, but no matter how big I am there is going to be someone bigger. No matter how physically fit I am there will be someone stronger. No matter how mentally prepared I am there will be something I haven't thought of. As long as I work for departments in civilized parts of town I will patrol alone.
I still say if you took a poll at the jail 9 out of 10 dirtbags would prefer a good tasing over a good ol' fashioned ass-beating.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13602 posts, RR: 63 Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1354 times:
Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15): Fact is most departments here don't have the funds to put two officers in every patrol car.
Here in Germany police patrol cars are manned by two officers as standard, to enable them to cover each other.
Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15): I see what you are saying, I really do, but no matter how big I am there is going to be someone bigger.
Back during the football (soccer) world cup in Germany last year we had British Bobbies based at HHN airport, as assistance to the German police (since HHN is directly connected to STN and PIK, there were many British fans travelling through this airport). The British cops were given full authority of arrest during the world cup period, they were in uniform and carried their usual belt gear (radio, handcuffs, pepper spray and a collabsible baton) and were usually part of mixed patrols (one British and one German cop together).
The British football fans had a lot of respect for them and behaved really nicely whenever those bobbies were around. One reason could be that all of them were about 6 1/2 feet tall and built like professional boxers.
I'd like to have Ryangooner in this discussion, I think he can offer a point of viw from a British cop.
NIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1351 times:
It is simple. If a PO tells you to do something you do it. Whether they are right or wrong. Once they have you in custody the can sort out the bullshit. If your in the wrong you get booked if not you get let go. When an officer is trying to get control of the situation and you are interfering then you deserve to get a jolt of electricity. Police should use the taser and I hope they continue to do so. People that resist just make the matter worse for everyone.
CaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1347 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 17): One reason could be that all of them were about 6 1/2 feet tall and built like professional boxers.
I wish I could say that about my department.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 17): The British football fans had a lot of respect for them and behaved really nicely whenever those bobbies were around.
Respect is what is missing on the streets of America. If everyone respected the police there probably wouldn't be a need for Tasers or Batons.
As far s wieners for a given shift go LOT767-89743534983534754ER would probably be slightly nicer than average. Although, he would more than easily talk himself into a ticket for something ridiculous like a tail light out.. In the UK he would probably get an "attitude adjustment" from one of the Bobbies in a way we aren't allowed to use, then sent on his way with a throbbing skull.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13602 posts, RR: 63 Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1333 times:
Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 19): As far s wieners for a given shift go LOT767-89743534983534754ER would probably be slightly nicer than average. Although, he would more than easily talk himself into a ticket for something ridiculous like a tail light out.. In the UK he would probably get an "attitude adjustment" from one of the Bobbies in a way we aren't allowed to use, then sent on his way with a throbbing skull.
One thing German police does not accept at all is persons trying to establish a lawless no-go area. I can give you one example:
Years ago when I was still in university, a Turkish classmate told me about an incident happening to him:
He was living in an apartment in an old multistory house in Berlin-Kreuzberg, a district known for it's alternative lifestyle.
One night some Hell's Angels types in the apartment above his were having a very noisy party. My friend on the other hand had to get up very early to work. So around 3 am he went upstairs to ask the bikers to lower the volume of their stereo, no luck, they told him to f*** off. So my friend called the police for assistance. After a few minutes a patrol car appeared, two cops went up to the bikers and told them that their music was way too noisy and a breach of public peace. They got told to perform something anatomically impossible with themselves.
My friend told me that then he heard a radio conversation in the stairwell. Shortly afterwards a platoon of riot police arrived and stormed upstairs in full riot gear. He could hear the sound of slaps and cries of pain.
A few minutes later the two original cops rang at his door and told him: "Mr. Oezcan, you can go to sleep now. We have confiscated their stereo!"
Another case in the same district in the early 1990s: There existed an "alternative" squatter camp made up of trailers. The inhabitants, political anarchists, declared it a government free zone. After a while there were more and more complaints about drug dealing and criminals hiding in this camp. Peacefull talk by the police with the spokesmen of the squatters did not help. So early one morning riot police surounded the whole camp and searched every trailer. They did not only arrest several persons wanted for crimes, but also confiscated drugs and stolen goods. A few resisters were injured. The main reason of this raid though was to show that there exists no place in Germany where the police doesn't dare to go.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5235 posts, RR: 6 Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1309 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5): Those problems include, often in combination, drug use, mental illness and compromising health conditions, especially heart and respiratory conditions like asthma. Those problems may not be obvious to a police officer when they choose to escalate to using a tazer when securing a person.
Many of those conditions would lead to problems in a fist fight.
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5): Another issue is that some outside law enforcement see tazers as a torture device
Quoting Amigocharlie (Reply 11): A taser should only be used if the use of a shooting weapon is justified.
In that case, the taser would have to be on the same law base as a gun. The use of them has always got to be the last option (right before shooting).
Cool, so let's just get rid of the taser and start shooting everyone!
Yfbflyer From Canada, joined Sep 2006, 297 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1289 times:
Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 22): Hard to do when you are sitting around minding your own business and people decide to flip you the bird.. Welcome to our world
Yes and if we can't get over something as trivial as that we should reconsider our professions. If I laid into everyone that flipped me off or swore to me I wouldn't get any of my serious work done. I have been involved in several violent altercations and I have always backed up what i said " make the first one count because there is no way you are getting a F####ing second."
As for the taser there is too much reliance on it. When they first came out it was presented as an alternative to lethal force now there is a move towards use as a compliance device.
25 Maverick623: Guns are a compliance device too. You tell someone to get his hands out of his pockets, they don't, and you shoot them. Bam! Hands come out... along
26 Theredbaron: Te problem is that there are idiots on both sides of the fence, granted criminal should be handcuffed and to do that sometimes force is necesary, henc
27 LOT767-300ER: I agree. I would also be for issuing tasers. However, I would have all police report the deployment of the weapon in each case and take each complain
28 Lobster: They all ready do. The cartridge that a Taser fires has a serial number on it and is issued by the dept that an officer works for. You have to report
29 Greasespot: Nope...someone pulls a knife on me I am pulling my gun on them.....No where does it say I have to fight fair...If a bad guys is willing to use deadly
30 Bok269: I feel tasers are very important as they allow officers to diffuse a situation without getting into an all out brawl or worse, shoot a suspect. The po
31 MCOflyer: Does it hurt to get tased? I would like to try that w/o getting arrested. Hunter
32 CaptOveur: If you use any kind of force in arresting someone that has to be included in the report. Also, there is an additional form at my department we have t
33 ANCFlyer: Of course they do, all power hungry, donut tripping cops are. Signed LOT8302893470293875209382-90854ER and his side kick N74JW . . . It's considered
34 Greasespot: What they do not issue the disposable tasers?....deploy at first traffic stop.....drop and your ready for the next traffic stop..... Yes it hurts....
35 Maverick623: Actually I'd wager going for a smaller cop. The big ones will just pound you into the ground.