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Armed Female Kills Gunman Intent On Rampage  
User currently offlineKSYR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3145 times:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html

Yes, I'm aware that the gun-control debate has been beaten to death here in non-av. However, I am interested in what people think of this development. To me it appears as if this courageous civilian woman saved large number of lives, only because she was (legally?) armed at the church.

I am also left wondering what kind of church uses armed security guards?!? I guess this particular congregation saw a need, but still very unusual.

143 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3126 times:



Quoting KSYR (Thread starter):
However, I am interested in what people think of this development.

I think that the people are lucky she was there. She saw a threat, she took it out. Good for her!

Quoting KSYR (Thread starter):
I am also left wondering what kind of church uses armed security guards?!? I guess this particular congregation saw a need, but still very unusual.

Not the type of place that you'd expect it, but no doubt a good thing she was there! I personally would have no problem if the church I went to had some armed guards, I don't really think that it's needed at the church I go to, but then again, I'm sure these people didn't believe they needed it either.


User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3118 times:

That is the power of having an armed CWP. She used her weapon and prevented a tragedy from becoming a possible massacre.

Interesting note, the mall at Omaha was designated a gun free zone, whereby a law abiding citizen with a CWP would not be able to carry a weapon. It is a possibility that that tragedy could have been stopped before it got to magnitude it did. Gun free zones of this type don't help anyone except criminals.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Remember the thread last week where the possibility of armed civilians terminating a threat was brought up and some people insisted that it would just lead to more dead people because of the all out guns blazing firefight that would result?

Guess that's not quite so accurate after all.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3092 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
Remember the thread last week where the possibility of armed civilians terminating a threat was brought up and some people insisted that it would just lead to more dead people because of the all out guns blazing firefight that would result?

 yes 

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
Guess that's not quite so accurate after all.

 checkmark 

An armed society is a polite society . . .

Or at least, a protected society.


User currently offlineExpress1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3075 times:

The Pastor of our church in Islington North London have a son-inlaw and daughter at the YWAM camp and they were there when the shooting took place, they are safe,but it was a worry for all back at church in London

dave


User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Attention all A.net anti-gun "nuts":

Told ya so.

Signed,
Me.

This is how it can work if you'll untighten your sphincter a couple of notches and allow law-abiding citizens to protect themselves, and possibly others as was the case this time.

Behold, fair-use excerpt:

"A New Life parishioner acting as a security guard shot and killed a gunman who entered the church Sunday afternoon after he had gotten no more than 50 feet inside the building, Boyd said."

"Boyd said the female security guard was a hero in preventing further bloodshed, rushing to confront the gunman just inside the church.

"She probably saved over a hundred lives," Boyd said of the guard, whom he said is not a law enforcement officer and used her personal weapon."

""Hundreds of lives were saved yesterday because of the plan that was put in place," said Boyd, who put the number of people on the church campus at the time as 7,000."


Thank God. Literally.


User currently offlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4898 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3053 times:

Kudos to the woman! And to all your whackjobs who think we should outlaw guns, yet more proof guns actually SAVE lives from those with bad intentions and a weapon to carry it out.


Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3036 times:

I hope that she is not negatively impacted by this event.

I further don't expect alot of press coverage on this.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3035 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
Remember the thread last week where the possibility of armed civilians terminating a threat was brought up and some people insisted that it would just lead to more dead people because of the all out guns blazing firefight that would result?

Guess that's not quite so accurate after all.

In this case, did the presence of an armed civilian help save lives? Yes. Does that mean that in general the benefit of being able to better confront dangerous assailants outweighs the risk of having more firearms in circulation, each with the potential (however slight) to be accidentally or purposely misused? Not necessarily. One incident proves nothing, no matter which side you're arguing for.

That said, that church community got very, very lucky that the situation was resolved before more lives were lost, and the presence of the armed civilian contributed to that resolution.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8726 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3029 times:

When you've all come down off your high pro-gun anti-regulation horses, would anyone care to notice this is one event where an armed voluntary security guard (hence probably trained better than average) prevented further tragedy? I applaud her for that and will gladly agree that it was her using her legal firearm that saved a lot of lives. But gleeful "told you so"s are akin to dancing on the graves of other victims of random shootings that were killed by weapons just as legal.

Am I OK with armed security guards protecting risk (see quote below) areas? Certainly! Will I agree that every gun in every John Doe's bedside cabinet makes the world a safer place? Not any more than before this event.

Quote:
The pastor also said New Life had taken extra precautions Sunday after hearing of the attack in Arvada, Colorado, early Sunday morning, in which a gunman killed two people after he was refused lodging at Youth With a Mission live-in Christian missionary center.

"Hundreds of lives were saved yesterday because of the plan that was put in place,"

The armed guard was part of a PLAN, and that plan saved lives. It wasn't Jane Doe standing around idly deciding to pull the trigger - but granted, it wasn't a trained LEO either.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3016 times:

This women is a power hungry vigilante and should be prosecuted.

Signed
A-net anti gun crowd.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 2):
Gun free zones of this type don't help anyone except criminals.

Wrong, everyone knows that if you pass a law against it everyone will obey the law and the problem will go away.


Signed
Anti gun crowd who live in fantasy land.


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3016 times:

This story is simply another out of countless stories every year about law-abiding armed citizens saving lives and preventing death. I'm under the impression had the Omaha shooting not occurred so recently, we would not be seeing such wide coverage of these shootings as we have, because of that very reason.

Here's a great article about the media coverage of the Omaha shooting and how they purposely ignored the failure of their ban on guns:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
An armed society is a polite society . . .

Or at least, a protected society.

 checkmark 

And the sooner people grow brains and understand this, the better. Banning guns does NOT make it more difficult to obtain them illegally, it ONLY TAKES AWAY THE RIGHTS OF LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS.

Gun control advocates - you all KNOW that had this armed civilian not been guarding that church, many more people would be dead, more lives ruined, and more families destroyed.

This last year alone we've seen so many perfect examples of the utter failure of gun-free zones to make people safer, and we still have a large number of f*cking morons who want to initiate gun control.

I would like to ask anyone who supports gun control how can they rationalize the fact that they want to deprive people of one of the most basic human rights: to protect oneself from harm by another.

I'll give you a small hint: YOU CAN'T.




-NWA742


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3004 times:



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 10):
People just don't want to get whacked in a mall.

Then if you are afraid the only way that will happen is by carrying your own gun and the mall (a private business, as you may recall) does not allow you to carry one your choice is simple.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineSBBRTech From Brazil, joined Jul 2007, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2997 times:

Wow, chicks with guns, that's a must!
But....weren't the guns used by the wacko also legal?



"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2997 times:



Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
When youve all come down off your high pro-gun anti-regulation horses, would anyone care to notice this is one event where an armed voluntary security guard (hence probably trained better than average) prevented further tragedy?

Two things:

1. There are MILLIONS of document events of armed civilians saving their own lives and the lives of others, this is one of MILLIONS.

2. I happen to be an armed security officer just like the person in this story and guess what - we are still armed civilians, we are not law enforcement officers, and we are hardly trained. Anybody who's fired a few bullets through a handgun at a target is as trained as an armed security officer in this state.





-NWA742


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2989 times:



Quoting SBBRTech (Reply 14):
But....weren't the guns used by the wacko also legal?

Whether or not they are able to be owned legally by law-abiding citizens is irrelevant - this person was not law-abiding, and in most of these situations the gun was purchased illegally.

Yes........gun control.........tell would-be murderers that it's illegal for them to hold a gun.......yeah, that helps.




-NWA742


User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2984 times:



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
Then if you are afraid the only way that will happen is by carrying your own gun and the mall (a private business, as you may recall) does not allow you to carry one your choice is simple.

Do you have a spare tire in your car?
Do you have a smoke detector?
Do you have a first-aid kit?
Does your community have a fire station?
Have you ever taken a condom along with you on a date?


User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2956 times:



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 12):
Gun control advocates - you all KNOW that had this armed civilian not been guarding that church, many more people would be dead, more lives ruined, and more families destroyed.

Yes, and I don't think any of us gun-control advocates would argue that point.

Here's what the issue boils down to. There are proper ways to use firearms (such as this case here), and improper ways to use firearms. The gun itself has little to nothing to do with which way it is used (ignoring fully automatic and other "overkill" weapons); instead, it largely depends on the gun owner. Most legal gun owners will use their firearms properly almost all the time. However, for every gun out there, there is a chance (however small) that it will be used improperly. This improper usage may be intentional or accidental, but it is always a potential risk, because gun owners are human, and hence imperfect. Gun control laws (should) work in two ways. First, they try to restrict the sale of guns to those who are more likely to use them improperly (criminals, the mentally deficient, people who don't know how to use them properly, minors, etc.) Second, they try to reduce the number of guns in overall circulation, since if a gun is not in circulation, it obviously can't be used improperly.

Will someone who is intent on acquiring a gun to use in a crime be prevented from doing so by these laws? In most cases, no. But not all gun violence is perpetrated by people who have this intent. There are plenty of incidents where it is the immediate access to guns that contributes to tragedy: crimes of passion, suicides, gun accidents, misuse of firearms by children, etc. Gun control laws are meant to cut down on these sort of incidents, where there is no premeditated intent to use firearms.

Does this mean that total elimination of guns is the answer? No. As I stated, gun control laws are not well equipped to deal with individuals who have a premeditated intent to use firearms improperly, and so individuals have the right to carry a firearm, should they so choose, to protect themselves against this threat. But a smart gun control policy will weigh these benefits against the risks discussed above and come to some middle ground. We should be able to have a reasoned debate over where this middle ground lies without resorting to name-calling or extremism.

Although I do agree with Miamiair that having a gun-free zone without also having a way to check people for guns is downright silly. I could see it working if you set it up like the drug-free zones around schools; don't prohibit them, but have an increased mandatory sentence if they are used in a crime within a particular area. But just saying "don't bring your guns in" isn't going to stop anyone.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2941 times:



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 18):
for every gun out there, there is a chance (however small) that it will be used improperly. This improper usage may be intentional or accidental, but it is always a potential risk, because gun owners are human, and hence imperfect.

For every car out there, there is a chance (however small) that it will be used improperly. This improper usage may be intentional or accidental, but it is always a potential risk, because car owners are human, and hence imperfect.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 18):
But not all gun violence is perpetrated by people who have this intent. There are plenty of incidents where it is the immediate access to guns that contributes to tragedy: crimes of passion, suicides, gun accidents, misuse of firearms by children, etc.

But not all car accidents are perpetrated by people who have this intent. There are plenty of incidents where it is the immediate access to cars that contributes to tragedy: road rage, suicides, drunk driving, misuse of automobiles by children, etc.


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2926 times:



Quoting KSYR (Thread starter):
I am also left wondering what kind of church uses armed security guards?!

Most of the big churches around here use off duty police to direct traffic on Sundays, or when they have a large event during the week. They are in uniform and carrying their weapons.


User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2922 times:



Quoting Queso (Reply 19):
For every car out there, there is a chance (however small) that it will be used improperly. This improper usage may be intentional or accidental, but it is always a potential risk, because car owners are human, and hence imperfect.



Quoting Queso (Reply 19):
But not all car accidents are perpetrated by people who have this intent. There are plenty of incidents where it is the immediate access to cars that contributes to tragedy: road rage, suicides, drunk driving, misuse of automobiles by children, etc.

Yes, and that's why we have laws controlling access to cars. But drawing this parallel does not negate my argument. The primary purpose of cars is to provide transportation, and as a society we have decided that the benefits this provides are significantly exceeded by the accompanying risk of car accidents. Guns are in a rather odd position in this respect, though. Their functionality is exactly the same whether they are used properly or improperly; the only question is at whom that functionality is targeted. The current societal consensus is that the risk-benefit balance for guns lies more toward the risk than it does in the case of cars, which makes sense to me seeing as how guns are expressly designed to wound and kill when used properly. As a result, guns ought to be more controlled than cars are.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineSBBRTech From Brazil, joined Jul 2007, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2899 times:



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 16):
Yes........gun control.........tell would-be murderers that it's illegal for them to hold a gun.......yeah, that helps.

NW i really don't have a strong position either pro or against guns. They exist and will exist for who knows how long, and all laws, controls, x-rays, whatever is there to deal with it won't make a difference if one goes to the dark side of weaponry....only another weapon will, and that I have to agree with.

Out here I've been witness to a few episodes where the sudden appearence of a gun made all the difference - both for the "good" guy and for the "bad" guy. Also during my tour as a bank manager I found myself in situations where I wished I had some firepower other than my salesman pitch...fortunately I never had to crawl under the table thanks for our underpaid security guys!

So for me it all depends on the person caring the piece. That woman deserves recognition. I hope they don't fry her for shooting that bastard.



"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11422 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2876 times:

ANOTHER gun control thread. Like moths to a flame, this topic...

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
Remember the thread last week where the possibility of armed civilians terminating a threat was brought up and some people insisted that it would just lead to more dead people because of the all out guns blazing firefight that would result?

Guess that's not quite so accurate after all.

*sigh*

You really like using one sample to "prove" a large point, don't you?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
An armed society is a polite society . . .

I would say that Japan is much more polite than America.

Quoting KSYR (Thread starter):
To me it appears as if this courageous civilian woman saved large number of lives

Not exactly a "civilian" is she? She was a hired security guard. She did her job, and apparently did it well. But this isn't your average girl down the street who happens to have a concealed weap license.

Quoting Queso (Reply 17):
Do you have a spare tire in your car?
Do you have a smoke detector?
Do you have a first-aid kit?
Does your community have a fire station?
Have you ever taken a condom along with you on a date?

None of those things CAUSE damage, queso.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2863 times:



Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
You really like using one sample to "prove" a large point, don't you?

If only it were just one sample. Too bad for you it's not. Feel free to carry on in delusion though.

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
I would say that Japan is much more polite than America.

Now that is funny. The most xenophobic and racist nation on the planet. Yeah, Japan appears polite on the surface. Public face and private face. The real Japan isn't what Japan wants to show the world.

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
Not exactly a "civilian" is she? She was a hired security guard.

Actually yes, she was a civilian.

She wasn't a licensed, uniformed or contracted Security Officer. The church set up it's own voluntary security squad that consisted of church parishiners. The "security team" in this instance was nothing more than armed citizens camping out at their church.


25 ScrubbsYWG : yeah, from what i have read, the only reason that the church set up this security team was because of the earlier shooting at the mission near denver.
26 NWA742 : But they don't much come into play when someone becomes hell bent on robbing a bank or stealing a car and taking the police on a chase that ends up k
27 N74JW : Come say that on 73rd & Girard. You need a gun there, only because everyone else has one...
28 PPVRA : This has been said many times over and over in other threads, but I'll say it again. Police is not security. They are law enforcement - they enforce l
29 IADCA : There's essentially only two choices here if you want to maintain even the present level of public safety (and this is greatly simplified, but forgive
30 KaiGywer : Speaking of guns, I need to donate $100 to my local sheriff soon before my class expires in February.
31 Queso : Wow, D L X, I must commend you on your ever-increasing powers of observation. Well done! However, in order to show that you fully comprehend what the
32 Post contains images D L X : And where are your other examples? Surely, you have *thousands* to show that you're not just going by statistically insignificant anecdotes. I'm just
33 MDorBust : There were plenty in the other thread. You just can't see the forest for the trees. A tangent you introduced. Funny that, de-crying your own tanget.
34 Pyrex : I am not even going to go into details like the probability of an event happening that requires the use of one of those being infinitely higher than
35 NoUFO : Did the gunmen own his gun illegally?
36 Post contains links IADCA : While common-sense gun laws are commendable, the castle doctrine isn't needed at all in this case. This is covered by any standard defense-of-others
37 D L X : Apparently my comment flew right over your head. Those things you listed are not controversial because while they protect, they cannot cause damage.
38 KaiGywer : He was showing you that a fire extinguisher very easily can cause damage. Since you seem unable to find it, let me post it (again): A New Life parish
39 Post contains links D L X : Yes. He does. See Student Group Wants More Guns On Campus (by Canuckpaxguy Nov 21 2007 in Non Aviation)
40 MDorBust : VT Columbine the Omaha Mall The Salt Lake Mall The Amish School house SuccessTech Academy in Clevland Delaware State University Hey... isn't this lis
41 D L X : That does not mean she is not a trained security guard. I agree that she might not be, but all the article says is that she volunteered.
42 MDorBust : You can of course quote where anybody claimed that high-school students should be able to carrry firearms? Right?
43 D L X : I think you've misunderstood me. Where are your thousands of examples of concealed carriers stopping gunmen? (The topic of this thread.) Well, it is,
44 IADCA : The kind of place that was in the spotlight after its former pastor, Ted Haggard, got caught...well, no need to go onto another issue of exactly what
45 Post contains links MDorBust : Okay, then there are millions (not thousands) of those. http://www.vcdl.org/new/kleck.htm Yay, it's the Kleck study again. Perhaps this time you'll r
46 MDorBust : They formed their impromptu security pose after another church related shooting only twelve hours prior. It turns out it was a good idea. PS: Most ma
47 Miamiair : Take note? You are getting ridiculous. But then again, I didn't expect anything less from you. You seem to come to these threads like a moth to a fla
48 KaiGywer : How do you know he isn't on the range every day training with his own money? Just because the state doesn't make him, doesn't mean he doesn't practic
49 Queso : High school? No. But I do believe that teachers and staff who are properly trained and licensed should be able to carry a handgun in high schools. An
50 IADCA : Sure was. Thanks for the info. As for the Kleck study, do you have anything newer? As I see it just reading it once, there are a few points of it tha
51 MDorBust : I do not know of a more recent study. You are right about the problems associated with the study. Generally the study is average with a group of othe
52 Miamiair : He won't. He'll dodge it; can someone say flip-flop? On a diferent note, punching holes in paper, but people should take some realistic training. Tur
53 Post contains links KaiGywer : Here are a few videos of research done by one of my professors. The "actors" are former students. http://www.forcescience.org/demos/subject/ They show
54 JetBlueGuy2006 : Mega churches. I have to say that good for her. She knew what to do and she save countless lives.
55 Post contains images NWA742 : No, don't point your finger at me. I've been shooting for over a decade now. I'm just telling you how the system works and how security guards are us
56 WellHung : The article could just as easily be about a parent accidentally shooting and killing a child they thought was an intruder or a high-ranking government
57 MDorBust : So, you think the lady in question wasn't defending the lives of the people at the church but actually wanted the perpatrator dead and he was just ki
58 AirCop : Really the title of this tread should have been: Armed Security Guard Kills ....Why be sexist? Worked with a number of females that could handle a wea
59 NoUFO : She was, but I'm still curious whether or not the gunman owned his gun legally.[Edited 2007-12-10 17:31:13]
60 Post contains images WellHung : Since the quote we have from her is: "I saw him coming through the doors," she told reporters on Monday. "I took cover, and I waited for him to get c
61 Queso : Speaking for myself, if you are talking about me you are correct. I do not repress how I feel about people protecting themselves. You are at least pa
62 Flighty : Instead of saying "gun freedom" will cure this problem, I think maybe a wall of shame for their families will do it. These pukes who go shoot people r
63 Miamiair : Are you related to Yuri Andropov or Vladimir Ilyich Ulanov?
64 NoUFO : Or was it that a legally armed thug was killed by a legally armed security guard?
65 Queso : Does it matter? It would really be upsetting to you if it's not some kind of security force, wouldn't it?
66 Miamiair : What difference does it make if the thug obtained the firearm legally or illegally? Once he chose to use the firearm to maim and/or kill he was fair
67 NoUFO : It does matter because it would provoke the question if you make it too easy for thugs to obtain firearms. In other words: how do you make sure that t
68 Post contains links Queso : Sorry, I missed this in one of my earlier read-throughs. Here are links to actual news articles that are published each month. Don't worry, it's not
69 Post contains links and images Queso : How do you make sure that doesn't happen with a law enforcement official? http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=2627 Earth to NoUFO: There ar
70 NoUFO : So, since there are no guarantees in life, could it be that you only feel safer with a gun in your safe but in fact aren't? To provide an example: Ov
71 D L X : I'm just going by what he says. If he says he is training every day, he wouldn't have said he was untrained. Personally, I would like to believe he i
72 Post contains images MDorBust : 2,000,000 (DGUs) vs 10,000-12,000 approx (Criminal firearms deaths) Only you could claim that is still in dispute. This is a factoid that has been lo
73 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Here's your well-deserved pat on the back then. I hope she gets positivie recognition for this. Unfortunately, someone will spin it somehow, I'm afra
74 Mir : So someone who was put there for the purpose of security, and had law enforcement experience, does her job. It wasn't just a coincidence that she was
75 D L X : I guess you're just going to completely ignore IADCA's post then, even after you acknowledged that he made good points. Interesting. I've never said
76 Joness0154 : She did a great job and I'm glad that she was there when she was. We need more people like her, in my opinion. Unfortunately it has already surfaced
77 MDorBust : I don't remember IADCA debunking the report. Or the dozen more it's compared with the generate the 2.0 million number. Want to know the best part of
78 D L X : Those were all good reasons to discount the report. He left out statistical insignificance though. MD, that still doesn't answer the question of whet
79 MDorBust : I see you still haven't read the study in quesiton. I assure you, they asked much more than, "ever use a gun?" What part of thirteen studies do you t
80 D L X : I read the interview about the study, that you sent us. I have the same complaints that IADCA has, plus the statistical insignificance. You know what
81 MDorBust : In a nutshell, it means you'll make up, or ignore, anything to avoid admitting that citizens actually use firearms to defend themselves on a fairly r
82 D L X : In other words, you don't. Thank you. No, it can be answered. You're just choosing not to. Okay, let's say half of them would be. So, now we've got 5
83 Skywatch : She was a member of the church who volunteered to guard after the recent YWAM shooting.
84 Post contains images MDorBust : Still a pointless "what if" theoretical exorcise intended to divert attention from the fact that citizens regularly use firearms for defense. You rea
85 Maverick623 : Remember that as soon as the pax on flight 93 knew what was going on, they were successful at stopping it. There are plenty of weapons on board to de
86 Post contains images EA CO AS : That's what I keep saying! Signed, Magic Johnson
87 JetMech : I applaud the brave actions of this lady, and it is quite possible that her actions saved more people from being killed. However, to highlight this a
88 ME AVN FAN : you however twisted the point a bit. This woman was/is NOT the problem, she SOLVED a problem. The problem is the gunman. We canNOT charge this woman
89 Post contains links Bwest : 88 replies already, while the most sensible reply has been giving a long time ago: Still, what worries me a bit is what our armed female volunteer sec
90 Joness0154 : Why, because she is religious and you aren't? Please explain.[Edited 2007-12-11 04:19:58]
91 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : The report says : """ "It seemed like it was me, the gunman, and God," said Jeanne Assam, describing her feelings as she confronted """ - Anybody dec
92 Queso : Do you always discriminate against people who believe in a deity or is it only in this case? Maybe that's the problem with Europe.
93 Post contains links Miamiair : "International evidence and comparisons have long been offered as proof of the mantra that more guns means more deaths and that fewer guns, mean fewe
94 Queso : What a lame source! I mean, it's only Harvard. And that's too old, don't you have any in-depth studies that were conducted and reported yesterday? Si
95 ME AVN FAN : No, THIS is a problem with the USA. In other areas of the world, average people do NOT declare to be with God in such a way, unless being in a mental
96 Queso : It's only the US that has this "problem", eh? OK, I'll try to remember that the next time I hear Ahmadinijad mentioning Allah being with the Iranian
97 Joness0154 : Wrong. Many people all across the world in all different types of religions claim God (or their God) was with them during a time of need.
98 ME AVN FAN : - Maybe, but not in this way in front of the media. No, in Europe, the lady would have been brought into the care of a soul-plumber upon that kind of
99 Slider : Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. Any gun that can be loaded is legal, as far as I’m concerned. Criminals don’t worry about administrative
100 ME AVN FAN : It has nothing to do with faith but with the style. People in Europe would feel the same but abstain from proclaiming such a very private thing
101 Queso : Isn't that a rather broad generalization? I'm sure that if I was familiar with European media I could find examples to dispute your assertions.
102 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : No, not really. When looking through European media, you may find out that people like this lady will say what she said to family members and close f
103 Miamiair : OK Enough of this crap. It happened in the US, not in Europe. The point is moot. Stop spamming the damn thread with nonsense.
104 Queso : That leads me to believe that since mental illness is so prevalent in Europe, they have spent plenty of money to ensure resources are available to ha
105 IADCA : Read the context. She's not the criminal. People would be a lot less likely to use their guns to defend themselves if they were carrying them illegal
106 ME AVN FAN : I did NOT and do NOT spam anything. I replied to THIS here : - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
107 Queso : Extensive data sets for this type of information take a great amount of time to gather and publish.
108 IADCA : Yeah, thanks, I've done research myself. The fact that something is difficult doesn't reduce the necessity of doing it. It takes a while, but not 15
109 MDorBust : You're just typing out replies we used to type out long ago. Don't worry, you'll tire of it and result to hitting DLX over the head with a stick even
110 Queso : Disclaimer: Not me. I wouldn't want to be accused of threatening Dee Ell Ex. I have the feeling a cross-eyed look would be a threat to "some people".
111 ME AVN FAN : This is hardly a fact. If it was a fact then the USA would have the lowest crime rate in the world. HOWEVER, I am against the prohibition of guns but
112 Queso : And just how in the hell do you figure that? At this time, overall there are relatively few (percentage-wise) "qualified law abiding citizens" choosi
113 MDorBust : If this isn't a fact, how was the shooting in the church stopped? Answer: By a qualified law abiding citizen. How was the knifing of five people ment
114 Bwest : First of all, I have no problem her shooting the guy, she prevented greater tragedy and is a hero. But! Whenever somebody says god helped him or her
115 Post contains images ANCFlyer : And THAT is the bottom line. Far too many critics of gun ownership wouldn't have the balls to drop an asshole - they'd rather PC them to death . . .
116 D L X : Actually, I'm pretty sure it's just you, Queso, and miamiair who refuse to listen to anything rational. I mean, you won't even give us your benchmark
117 Post contains links Dtwclipper : This topic just became a moot issue! AP: Police say autopsy results show Colorado church gunman Matthew Murray killed himself. http://www.cnn.com/
118 Post contains links D L X : Here's the exact article. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14823675/detail.html The issue isn't moot because the security guard did hit the gunma
119 Queso : Rational? What's not rational about wanting to have the means to protect myself when confronted by a threat of physical force? Consider your answer t
120 Post contains images Yellowstone : Probably the most intelligent comment I've seen in this thread. Must be why I said it earlier.
121 Post contains images D L X : That IS perfectly rational for you to want that. I've never denied that. (See what I mean about you putting words in my mouth?) What I have said is t
122 IADCA : And interestingly, both of us inserted it into the middle of our posts, and mine at least was an afterthought. Economic theory and gun violence aren'
123 MDorBust : Nope. You can legally own an AR-15 (exempting local state level bans). Many of the posters in this thread own at least one.
124 Post contains links Queso : Please consider rereading my post. I NEVER mentioned your wallet or money. I said..... Money is not the sole reason for a crazed person to attack som
125 IADCA : Sorry, meant to say "in many places." Edited the original. They were illegal under the assault weapons ban until '04 though, right?
126 MDorBust : The AR-15 specifically by name, yes. Any other AR pattern rifle made by a company other than Colt, no. I bought two AR pattern rifles during then ban
127 Post contains images HuskyAviation : This WOMAN is a power hungry vigilante and should be prosecuted. Signed A-net anti-gun crowd and non-gun wielding Grammar Police.
128 MDorBust : I had something to say... then I forgot what it was.[Edited 2007-12-11 13:11:27]
129 Post contains images Bwest : The woman is a religious armed nut and should be locked up... Signed: Europe
130 Post contains images Allstarflyer : When considering the Europeans have swayed among such ideas as rationalism to enlightenment to empiricism to every other unfulfilling philosophy unde
131 IADCA : You mean the one he posted the abstract from without reading?
132 Miamiair : I read it from front to back. What are you playing at? Stirring the pot makes it stink up the place. I would like to know where you got the idea I di
133 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Don't join the likes of Klaus or others here who obviously don't do their homework and or attempt to divert (and/or condescend) concerning the releva
134 Queso : I read it. I think there's a lot of relevant information in it and I think it stands as a good reference source. We can argue the merits of individua
135 IADCA : Please read my post #29. You'll see I don't disagree with citizens w/guns, I'm not anti-gun, and I think the woman in the original topic of the post
136 IADCA : I'd agree with that, but to the point of being any way dispositive as to a cause-and-effect relationship of gun ownership and violent crime in the US
137 Braybuddy : Would someone please explain to me what a CHURCH is doing with an ARMED security guard?
138 Queso : Why not? Churches are not immune from violent crime, by any means. The church I go to, by State law, has the option of prohibiting concealed handgun
139 Allstarflyer : I thought you might draw that conclusion - I could, and perhaps should, have clarified whom I was addressing - when I said this . . . . . . I was add
140 ShyFlyer : The Church in Colorado Springs had been informed of an earlier shooting at the training center in Denver. Since the two have a working relationship,
141 IADCA : They stated that there was CORRELATION, and then also ticked off and described several other possible causes. Nowhere did they posit a causal relatio
142 Braybuddy : Nowhere is immune from violent crime, yet you don't have armed security guards on every street corner. Then it's a police matter.
143 Post contains images Srbmod : Enough is enough! The sniping (pun unintentional) between certain users has made this thread impossible to clean up without axing a huge chunk of this
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