Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished  
User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Just received the news that the New Jersey Senate passed S-171, a bill that would abolish capital punishment and reduce the state's maximum punishment to life without parole. The bill will be presented tomorrow to the New Jersey House of Representatives where passage is expected. If passed by both Houses, the bill will advance to the Govenor's Office where it will be signed into law.

If this happens as expected, NJ will join a growing minority of states where the death penalty has either been abolished or a moritorium placed in recent years. New York State effectively abolished capital punishment when the state's previous statute was declared unconstitutional and no replacement statutue has been passed. Illinois has has a moritorium in place since 2000.


"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2071 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2425 times:

Just heard this on the news, a step in the right direction although New Jersery has never executed anyone (since 1976) and had 11 people on death row according to wikipedia.

User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2418 times:



Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
although New Jersery has never executed anyone (since 1976) and had 11 people on death row

Atypical of a political statement - as an old friend of mine used to say; big wind, no rain.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2384 times:

We should know what the final votes are by end of Thursday. At present, these are the states that do not carry out capital punishment: Alaska, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont, West Virginia, Wisconsin and the District of Columbia. To date, the last states to legislatively abolish capital punishment are Iowa and West Virginia.

What may be more telling of the changing attitudes towards capital punishment is the fact that three states are conducting official legislative studies that will make recommendations as to whether they should continue to use capital punishment. Those states are California, Tennessee and North Carolina-all of which are borderline states. If California eventually abolishes capital punishment, that may well prove to be the tipping point in the national debate. If you look around, you can find a good amount of video from testimony given in the various state legislatures-much of which tears up the idea that victims of these heinous crimes get closure or justice through capital punishment. Weigh the evidence and make your own conclusion.



"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13114 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

A variety of practical, financial, moral and political reasons are compelling legisgators in New Jersey to delete the death penalty and replace it with life without parole. NJ hasn't executed anyone since 1963. In many cases where the death penalty was given as a sentence, upon appeal it was converted to life without parole. One recent influence was a visit to NJ by Sr. Prejean, an anti-death penalty advocate, made famous in the film "Dead Man Walking". She spoke with members of the legisgature, the Governor (majority Democrats) and local church and other groups and may have been an important influence in this legisgation. NJ would become the only state since the 1970's to remove the death penalty law from thier statutes and the 14th state in the USA that doesn't have it.
I can understand and support this change, but I wish it was retained for mass or multiple murderers, those that kill law enforcement officers and political leaders. I also continue to beleive that the Federal government must have the the right to use the death penalty for Federal charges, including any terror acts, murder of high level political officials and law enforcement offcers.


User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

Update-the bill is being debated on the floor of the General Assembly at this hour. Motions to amend the bill have been rejected.

[Edited 2007-12-13 13:45:07]


"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

Update-Bill S-171 passed 44-36 for abolition of Capital Punishment in the General Assembly of the State of New Jersey as read. The bill will now proceed to the Governor's Office to be enacted into law. Since Gov. Corzine has indicated that he will sign the bill, it can be considered that New Jersey no longer has capital punishment.


"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineToast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2295 times:



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 6):

Congratulations. It's good to see some examples of progressive legislation appearing even during this dark era of the neocons. This is what politics should be about - not pandering to the masses, but courageouly affronting popular opinion when there are rational reasons to do so.

This is a victory for reason and for humanity - hooray New Jersey!  Smile


User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2276 times:

It should be mentioned that there are additional states that have bills in the statehouse to abolish capital punishment-replacing it with a sentence of life without any possibility of parole or release. Hopefully, the move by the State of New Jersey abolishing capital punishment will provide some momentum to the stalled efforts in places such as Nebraska and Montana. I watched the proceedings via live feed-there were good arguments made by both sides and the presiding officers allowed for all opinions to be voiced.


"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2273 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
those that kill ... political leaders.

Why should that be worse than killing anyone else ? Politicians aren't THAT special.


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4892 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2272 times:

The less killing the better. End of discussion for me. I wish more jurisdiction would drop the death penalty.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2253 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
A variety of practical, financial, moral and political reasons are compelling legisgators in New Jersey to delete the death penalty and replace it with life without parole. NJ hasn't executed anyone since 1963.

Although as a former resident of that state who grew up there and lived there through 1977, the state missed a solid bet when they did not execute Ruben Carter when they had the chance. Had they merely sentenced him to life without parole he'd still be in prison.

He's all yours, Canada. I hope you like what you got. We don't want him back, and the air breathes a little cleaner down here for knowing he's in your corner of the world.


User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2241 times:

Way to go, New Jersey! Finally, the effort to legislatively abolish capital punishment in the United States has achieved its first major victory. The courage and moral leadership demonstrated by the New Jersey legislature may provide the momentum for Maryland, Nebraska, Colorado, New Mexico, and Montana to enact pending legislation that repeals their death penalty statutes. Sooner or later, capital punishment will be abolished throughout the United States.

Slowly but surely, a growing number of Americans recognize that the death penalty is a failed social policy that offers no real protection against violent crime. Capital punishment is applied in an arbitrary and capricious manner. Only a very small minority of people convicted of premediated murder are actually sentenced to death in states that retain the death penalty. Most death sentences are reversed on appeal. Life imprisonment without parole is a harsh, but humane, punishments that is applied universally to all convicted murderers. Life imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty, and it is certain that this punishment will be carried out. Abolishing capital punishment is more consistent with the democratic ideals of equal protection of the law and due process of law.


User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3504 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

I'm ok with life without parole instead of the death penalty. I hope they do the same thing here in California.

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

Congratulations! A good step forwards. May others have the courage to follow suit.

User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2215 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
May others have the courage to follow suit.

Others are following suit as previously mentioned. That said, it may take them a little while longer to get there. I was once in favor of capital punishment but as I learned more about the criminal justice system and correctional management, my opinions shifted. Capital punishment is not uniformly applied, is used to coerce pleas of guilt to lesser charges and is statistically shown to have no mitigating effect on crime. In fact, during the era of public executions in Europe in the 19th century, it is historically acknowledged that crime would increase on the day of an execution due to the pickpockets and other petty criminals who would work the crowds.

Some of the State Assembly members on the conservative side accuse the supporters of S-171 of taking actions that might someday allow the eight men formerly on death row to be released. As one of the supporters correctly stated, there is a difference between simply eliminating capital punishment and allowing someone previously sentenced to death to be released. Their statement was that the men would simply be removed from a sentence of death, not that they would be given any opportunity to be released.



"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2197 times:

"What a bunch of wusses, New Jersey! The more that fry, the better!"

Signed,
Texas


User currently offlineNuori5084 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2194 times:

I am glad I no longer reside in that pit of a state. I think even less of it now!


Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2191 times:



Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 17):
I am glad I no longer reside in that pit of a state. I think even less of it now!

I agree with you about Texas.  Big grin

As for Jersey, it ain't much, but after this, it's a sight better than Texas is.


User currently offlineNuori5084 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2186 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
I agree with you about Texas. Big grin

As for Jersey, it ain't much, but after this, it's a sight better than Texas is.

What society tolerates these days is just amazing. It's scary.



Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1291 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2166 times:

Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 19):
What society tolerates these days is just amazing. It's scary.

I'm not sure life without parole in a maximum-security pen is really "tolerates."

In any case, a lot of people outside the US and in some states promote what they claim is a strictly law and rationality-based (that is, based on clearly drawn rules) when it comes to criminal law, and then whine when the US (and certain states within) do otherwise. Yet, if you look at some other areas of law, American law favors more bright-line rules, and that varies between states, often in unpredictable directions. What this mess suggests is that this isn't about imposing "rationality," but rather on straight moralism.

What people don't seem to think about is that it's possible to rationally reform the death penalty without total abolition. Equitable senses of justice suggest that (at least to me) there is at least a certain subset of murderers who should be subject to capital punishment. The biggest problem with the application of the death penalty once you pass the moralist political theory goobley-gook that has little practical application in the US as of now (internally coherent though it is) is that
the death penalty is inconsistently applied. Some states execute too many people on too little evidence for many people's tastes. Those are the states that need to review their policies, most likely.

New Jersey, which only had eleven people on death row, clearly was committed to using it only in extreme situations. Most law is done ex ante; that's not true with criminal sentencing. It's retrospective judgment. So, I must point out, can you imagine what the hell those 11 people had to do to get on death row? Is this the kind of re-examination of the death penalty we really want? If you really want to reform the death penalty, isn't it a lot more sensible to concentrate on what reformers view as the worst offenders first?

This is a symbolic move. It expresses a political sentiment, but does nothing else. If reformers really want to stop the government from killing people, they need to get to Texas and Virginia and try to get those legislatures to do something. For some reason, I don't see that working. Here's where federalism is a big factor in social policy, like it or not.

[Edited 2007-12-13 22:44:12]

User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2154 times:

We might some new Bright Lines when the United States Supreme Court hands down decisions in Snyder vs. Louisiana and Baze vs. Rees. Synder deals with juror selection issues and Baze proposes that the three drug cocktail violates the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment as provided for in the Constitution. That is the case which has presently halted all executions for the time being and perhaps the immediate future if the court does determine that some part of the execution manner is problematic. Some of the states that authorize lethal injection as the method of execution do not have an approved, alternate method. If the Court rules the three drug cocktail unconstitutional, those states will not be able to resume executions until a new law is passed that gives the state that authority and passes the legal tests.

Legislatively restoring capital punishment is rarely successful. New York's State Supreme Court ruled that their laws (as they existed) were unconstitutional and struck them down. No attempts to restore capital punishment have succeeded there. There was a recent attempt to restore capital punishment in Minnesota but it failed to pass in the statehouse. Michigan has experienced many attempts to reinstate capital punishment since they abolished it 158 years ago. All of those attempts have failed by miserable margins.



"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineNuori5084 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2148 times:



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 21):
Legislatively restoring capital punishment is rarely successful. New York's State Supreme Court ruled that their laws (as they existed) were unconstitutional and struck them down. No attempts to restore capital punishment have succeeded there. There was a recent attempt to restore capital punishment in Minnesota but it failed to pass in the statehouse. Michigan has experienced many attempts to reinstate capital punishment since they abolished it 158 years ago. All of those attempts have failed by miserable margins.

Of course not!

It's the way....society is today. The original punishment laws go way back before anyone would ever dream of it ever becoming such an issue as retreating from the idea of the death penalty.

It's like the notion of, "if it's not broken, don't fix it." Yet, we have to change the capital punishment laws suddenly when DNA forensic evidence is better than ever. We can now prove some is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt through DNA. BUT, we'll let them live because lethal injection is just oh so "cruel," suddenly.

I wounder how their victims felt at the time of their murders...I bet they would have chosen a lethal injection verses multiple stab wounds or being shot to suffer only for a few days to end up dieing from being taken off life support. Those poor convicted murders...let them LIVE. They deserve it, right?



Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2126 times:



Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 22):
Yet, we have to change the capital punishment laws suddenly when DNA forensic evidence is better than ever.

That's debatable. There are rare cases where the best DNA testing can still leave room for reasonable doubt-twins or triplets share the same DNA. With the increasing numbers of multiple births, shared DNA will become much more common and DNA a much less absolute piece of evidence.

Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 22):
We can now prove some is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt through DNA. BUT, we'll let them live because lethal injection is just oh so "cruel," suddenly.

DNA does nothing to remove reasonable doubt. It merely points to the fact that the person was probably at the scene-not whether they did the crime (except for rape cases). Yes, because we are a civilized nation of laws. This is what sets us aside from the banana republic regimes such as Iran, DRC, etc. Capital punishment itself might well fit the defination of cruel and unusual due to the disproportionate application and the rush to judgment.

Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 22):
I bet they would have chosen a lethal injection verses multiple stab wounds or being shot to suffer only for a few days to end up dieing from being taken off life support.

Speak for yourself. Many would probably say otherwise.

Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 22):
Those poor convicted murders...let them LIVE. They deserve it, right?

They deserve to live a life of fear and pain-that's what they've created for others. Frankly my belief is that it would be preferable to make them live out the rest of their days in general population where you have to watch your back every minute. Give me life without parole over death.



"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1291 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2101 times:



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 21):
We might some new Bright Lines when the United States Supreme Court hands down decisions in Snyder vs. Louisiana and Baze vs. Rees. Synder deals with juror selection issues and Baze proposes that the three drug cocktail violates the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment as provided for in the Constitution.

Right, these would be very narrow rules on juror selection really just builds on cases like Batson. It's about the use of peremptory challenges, not the death penalty per se. The Court could rule in the current case without really even extending anything. In any case, it's not likely to be a new bright-line rule. The use of race as a sole criterion for peremptories is already unconstitutional under Batson. The problem is that state courts read Batson differently. All this would do is even out the states that are reading it very narrowly.

Baze could simply get the three-drug cocktail declared cruel and unusual. While I doubt that the present Court will even go this far, it is possible the ruling could be so narrow as to force states to use a different drug cocktail; the briefs focus on the possible suffering caused by the administration of these drugs; while the Court could theoretically go nuts jumping off that platform, they won't. And if they hold this method cruel and unusual, what can states do? Go back to older, apparently more barbaric methods that nonetheless do have explicit authorization from the Supreme Court, such as firing squad and the electric chair. Many of the states that use injection now use it solely by choice, and never outlawed the use of the chair, for example. Therefore, they could just go back and pretty much start frying people immediately. Is that really what you want. Several states have explicitly prepared backup plans, such as Wyoming, which allows the use of gas, but only if the injection is declared unconstitutional.


25 57AZ : Possible, depending on the wording of the statute. My home state of Tennessee would probably have to pass a new statutue as the statute authorizing t
26 Post contains images Maidensgator : It already was thirty-five years ago.... Yeah right... After the Supremes nullified the death penalty in 1972, 37 states legislatively restored it, a
27 57AZ : Arizona also uses gas-last time was in the 1990s. Only problem with gas is that it's a much more complex procedure with more risks to the observers.
28 LTBEWR : Governor Corzine will sign the repeal bill on Monday. As others have noted, there is a good probability that lethal injection as it is currently used
29 DL021 : So...you refute democracy when it suits you? What about majority rule? Do you believe that only applies when it doesn't offend you? Just asking.....
30 Post contains images ShannoninAMA : Why do you insist on bringing texas into Every Political thread out there? Dang, you sure are funny.
31 Toast : Not when it suits me, when it makes sense. There is no such thing as total democracy. You're not asked about each and every decision politicians take
32 DL021 : I re-read my post and realize that it sounds harsh. But facts are facts. Life imprisonment is no favor to society or the prisoner. I further find it o
33 57AZ : Correct. To date I think that their number saved is over 200 persons-persons who were not only wrongfully convicted of murder but in many cases never
34 DL021 : When they make sense to you? Or others? Sure I am...every time I vote. I'm asked whether I agree with what this elected official has done or do I wan
35 DL021 : Nah...just because other nations have doesn't mean that it's a good thing. Otherwise other nations with the death penalty would be right. I said most
36 57AZ : True. However I am inclined to believe that the majority opinion has shifted in New Jersey and that the vocal opposition is that of the present polit
37 Mir : The mistakes that send a man to prison for life can be corrected, even after the appeals process. Doesn't matter. The fact that they have been able t
38 Post contains images Toast : When they make sense, period. When they're rational and logical. Well, the folks in NJ were voted into office, so what's the problem? Wow... where di
39 Post contains links and images RJdxer : Hmmmm.....like invading Iraq to do away with a despot of a leader and free the people? As cited, they had not executed a single person in decades so
40 Post contains images Mir : Like invading Iraq to ensure that Saddam wasn't going to be a threat, you mean. Indeed, so punitive that people in New York will make a point of goin
41 Toast : I said, "when there are rational reasons". It may very well be the catalyst of more widespread reform. What has that to do with anything? Nice psycho
42 RJdxer : It always helps if you read the entire statement. That New York has more punitive taxes does not mean that New Jersey doesn't rank right up there wit
43 MaidensGator : It has little, if any, general deterrent effect.... As a specific deterrent, capital punishment has a perfect record. Murderers do escape from custod
44 Dougloid : Folks, I think what a lot of people are losing sight of here is not whether it is cheaper to warehouse people forever as compared to warehousing them
45 Post contains links IADCA : That didn't "affront popular opinion." At the beginning of the war (and before it started), the invasion was supported by a majority of Americans, wh
46 Jamincan : I've always felt that the issue of eliminating the death penalty was less about what the criminal deserved, and more about how we, as a fair and civi
47 DL021 : Seriouely....the majority of the world is now literate, and your definition of superstitious probably involves anyone who goes to church regularly, t
48 IAD380 : No, capital punishment was never legislatively abolished throughout the United States. In 1972, the Supreme Court ruled that the state capital punish
49 57AZ : Just because they are not "low" risk does not mean that they cannot be productive behind bars. Many institutions use lifers or high timers for indust
50 CastleIsland : Good to see that NJ has embraced civilization. Well done, NJ politicians!!! The three ! are significant as well. Anyone know why?
51 MD11Engineer : Germany has a similar system. For most prisoners, work is considered a priviledge, to escape the boredom of being locked up 23 hours a day. Similar t
52 Mir : Indeed they are. That does not give them the right to a job. Put prisoners to work, and use the money they generate to fund education so that America
53 Kalakaua : I think of Ron White and "Express Lane."
54 N1120A : Are you talking about Rubin Carter, the boxer? If they had killed him, it would have been a travesty of justice. It will likely happen not that New J
55 IADCA : Yes, and that doesn't negate the fact that a few still allow prisoners to choose and several more have already provided for the implementation of oth
56 N1120A : Oh, I agree, but the point has to be made that the death penalty goes on hold in all those states that have limited it to the needle if it is deemed
57 Post contains links Dougloid : Yes. That would be the middleweight of no great skill. That's the swine who walked into a bar in Paterson New Jersey and gunned down three innocent p
58 N1120A : No prints, not powder burns and no eyewitness other than a criminal who gave a vague description, then changed his story multiple times. The only phy
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
McLeish To Be New Birmingham Boss posted Tue Nov 27 2007 08:21:33 by Nighthawk
Today 7/7/7 To Be Revealed: The New 7 Wonders Of World posted Sat Jul 7 2007 07:41:13 by RootsAir
New Car Models About To Be Released In Australia posted Tue Jun 12 2007 16:59:40 by 'Longreach'
Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded? posted Fri Mar 16 2007 23:55:55 by AA787823
Death Penalty For Female Would-Be Bomber posted Thu Sep 21 2006 19:11:24 by Luv2fly
Is The New Superman Meant To Be Jesus? posted Fri Jul 28 2006 14:59:57 by KLMA330
Tony Snow To Be New WH Press Secretary posted Tue Apr 25 2006 05:17:38 by AirCop
New Fed Chief To Be Announced At 1 Pm Today posted Mon Oct 24 2005 17:26:04 by Jetjack74
Merkel To Be New German Chancellor posted Mon Oct 10 2005 09:56:36 by Braybuddy
Choice To Die - Alternative To The Death Penalty? posted Fri Sep 16 2005 14:00:47 by Mrniji