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Should We Publish The Names Of Mass Killers  
User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2040 times:

With the recent shooting spree in Omaha and the 19 yr old punk wanting to go out in a blaze of glory do you think the media should not publicize it by revealing the name of the killer? Here is an article about it..


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071217/ap_on_re_us/media_naming_killers


NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLobster From Germany, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

In this day and age of technology and everyone and everything being "wired", I just don't think that it could be kept secret. All it would take is for one person to file a request for public information and it would be all over the place.

Besides, I think people have a right to know the name of what ever scumbag did the damage.


User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2023 times:

Only if they've been convicted.


AF340 wave 


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1994 times:



Quoting AF340 (Reply 2):
Only if they've been convicted.

I understand the sentiment - however, if Tommy Tentpeg races into a mall with a rifle and hangun and starts capping off innocent bystanders because his 3rd grade English Teacher was a bitch and then kills himself in the process . . . well . . . ummmm.

GUILTY.


User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3625 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1995 times:

You can't censor the press.

User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1987 times:



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
I understand the sentiment - however, if Tommy Tentpeg races into a mall with a rifle and hangun and starts capping off innocent bystanders because his 3rd grade English Teacher was a bitch and then kills himself in the process . . . well . . . ummmm.

In that case that would be fine. When it's obvious that they did it (ie. they admit it or they killed themselves) immediate release would be fine.


AF340 wave 


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1971 times:

Ah, that never works.  Smile Some guy burned down the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus in 356 BC only to make his name known to the world forever. The court ruled that his name should never be recorded to deny him his wish.

Fellow's name was Helostratus, by the way.  Smile



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1958 times:

I can understand keeping a name secret if a person's suspected of committing a crime to allow them a fair trial, but if they're undisputedly dead, why should the name be secret?


Andrea Kent


User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1949 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 7):
I can understand keeping a name secret if a person's suspected of committing a crime to allow them a fair trial, but if they're undisputedly dead, why should the name be secret?

The family.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1941 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 7):
I can understand keeping a name secret if a person's suspected of committing a crime to allow them a fair trial, but if they're undisputedly dead, why should the name be secret?

Also, a name and legacy continues even into death. A person is innocent until proven otherwise, even in death. That being said, there should be some way to declare a person culpable even if are dead, to provide some closure to the victims' families.



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

In todays instant attention media and freedom of press in the USA, mass killers and their names cannot be ignored. The public want's to know who did it and why.
What should occur are ways to keep the live television media lens off situations when they are occurring, to limit the attention the a-holes who do such crimes want except only to the appropriate law enforcement authorities. Once the situation is over, then let the public know of the facts.


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days ago) and read 1894 times:
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Quoting Bok269 (Reply 9):
Also, a name and legacy continues even into death. A person is innocent until proven otherwise, even in death. That being said, there should be some way to declare a person culpable even if are dead, to provide some closure to the victims' families.

This is not a simple issue for the media. There's an inherent conflict between two charter rights: right to a fair trial and freedom of the press. Depending on the prevalent mood in society, the pendulum has swung in both directions from time to time. Right now, it is definitely over on the freedom of the press side of the issue, largely because of instantaneous media technology and the inability of anyone in authority to properly control it.

The Willie Pickton trial up here tested those two rights in a big way, especially in the early days of the case when, at the preliminary inquiry stage of the trial process, there was a publication ban on the evidence. Media could attend sessions, but couldn't report on it. That posed serious problems for the US reporters who decided to come and cover it, and for the judge whose ability to hang the reporters for violating the rule was hampered by his lack of jurisdiction over US territory. By and large, the US reporters cooperated, especially when the judge told them that while he couldn't fine them, but he could bar them from his courtroom.

For Americans, the preliminary inquiry process is similar to the Grand Jury system, in that it's only task is to determine if there is enough evidence to commit an accused to trial. Once Pickton was committed for trial, the ban was lifted and all evidence presented to the jury is open for publication. While the Grand jury operates behind closed doors, the preliminary inquiry is open to the public.

In the case of a killer who offs himself, there's no right to a fair trial to protect. Further unleashing the media horde is the fact that dead men can't sue.

In a general sense, I'm always in favour of the media's right to publish what it knows. But I'd be horrified if in doing that, some innocent-until-proven-guilty monster's right to a fair trial was so jeopardized that he walked.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days ago) and read 1888 times:



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 8):
why should the name be secret?

The family.

I'll go out on a limb and say that in a lot of cases the family isn't innocent in these sort of things. Whenever someone goes off and kills a bunch of folks like Omaha, Virginia Tech, or Columbine I think the family is part of the petri dish that created such a monster and they should be looked into as part of the problem.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1882 times:
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Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 12):
I'll go out on a limb and say that in a lot of cases the family isn't innocent in these sort of things.

Be very, very careful where you go with that one. Some sociopaths and psychopaths come from reasonably stable home environments -- not perfect, but not hellish either. And some of society's over-achievers and success stories have family backgrounds that would make you cry.

This move to hold parents responsible for the actions of their offspring is fraught with peril. I seem to recall that some of the wildfires in California last summer were started by kids playing with matches, and there were all manner of comments suggesting that the parents of these kids should be forced to pay for some of the damages. Cooler heads prevailed, fortunately. But the mindset that seems to think that appropriate parental punishment for the unwitting "crimes" of their children is to drive them to financial ruin troubles me a lot.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1873 times:



Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
Be very, very careful where you go with that one.

Hence the reason why I said "in a lot of cases..." to cover the times where the home life isn't responsible for it. I'm not calling for financial ruin of these folks but more times than not I would suspect some sort of effed up petri dish of a home that set them off on their path of destruction. Polarizing theory? Perhaps, and I don't really care if folks think of me as some cold heartless SOB because of it.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1859 times:

I think the news should be allowed. Our country, our media, our government should be transparent. When we start keeping secrets, and preventing from the public from knowing certain things, it sets a very bad message and a very bad trend.

Maybe I'm saying this because of Bush's Administration's virtually unparalleled use of secrecy, only potentially equalled by Nixon's. Secrecy is anathema to a free society.

It may not always be pretty, but it may just be needed


Andrea Kent


User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1843 times:



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 12):
I'll go out on a limb and say that in a lot of cases the family isn't innocent in these sort of things. Whenever someone goes off and kills a bunch of folks like Omaha, Virginia Tech, or Columbine I think the family is part of the petri dish that created such a monster and they should be looked into as part of the problem.

All of these cases however, the family background of the killers has been normal. That's one of those things that makes these events so remarkable. Kids from decent backgrounds. None of the families from the events you've listed have been abusive or could in any way be considered "bad parents" other than not seeing the signs before hand. Of course trying to find signs in a teenager is hard. If most teens don't know who they are and where they stand, most adults will be hard pressed as well.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 15):
I think the news should be allowed. Our country, our media, our government should be transparent. When we start keeping secrets, and preventing from the public from knowing certain things, it sets a very bad message and a very bad trend.

And you think the killers in Omaha, VT, and Columbine worked for the government!? Don't be stupid. You're advocating the violation of privacy rights for private citizens to stoke your own paranoia. Go put on your tin foil cap and read something productive.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1834 times:



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 16):
All of these cases however, the family background of the killers has been normal.

You don't know that for certain. I'm sorry but I just don't buy that these various killers had normal home lives and everything was Mom's apple pie and fresh flowers. Something set these kids off and my first instinct would be to look at the nest where they came from.

The sheer fact that the VaTech kid was listed numerous times as having issues but it seems the parents never did anything about it is a big problem for me. Now I'm sure some folks will say "It's a cultural thing. You can't judge" and to them I say Hooey. Those parents have a hand in creating that killer.

Of course there were multiple failures with this kid by many people but I'll stick by it that the parents' complacency in rasing their kid and getting him the help he needed led to that massacre. And it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it ever turned up the kid was abused in some way shape or form.

Same goes for the Columbine kids. Heck, you've never heard anything out of their parents because they refuse to answer for their kids' actions. Perhaps because they are embarrassed they had a hand in creating those killers through their home life in addition to being outcasts at school.? Methinks yes.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1821 times:



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 17):
You don't know that for certain. I'm sorry but I just don't buy that these various killers had normal home lives and everything was Mom's apple pie and fresh flowers. Something set these kids off and my first instinct would be to look at the nest where they came from.

The sheer fact that the VaTech kid was listed numerous times as having issues but it seems the parents never did anything about it is a big problem for me. Now I'm sure some folks will say "It's a cultural thing. You can't judge" and to them I say Hooey. Those parents have a hand in creating that killer.

Of course there were multiple failures with this kid by many people but I'll stick by it that the parents' complacency in rasing their kid and getting him the help he needed led to that massacre. And it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it ever turned up the kid was abused in some way shape or form.

Same goes for the Columbine kids. Heck, you've never heard anything out of their parents because they refuse to answer for their kids' actions. Perhaps because they are embarrassed they had a hand in creating those killers through their home life in addition to being outcasts at school.? Methinks yes.

As I've already mentioned, so far the only thing these parents are guilty of is not reading the right signs at the right time. We've all had issues growing up. None of us turned out to be nutjobs.

These parents have enough grief. Why publish their home addresses?

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1818 times:
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Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 17):
Same goes for the Columbine kids. Heck, you've never heard anything out of their parents because they refuse to answer for their kids' actions. Perhaps because they are embarrassed they had a hand in creating those killers through their home life in addition to being outcasts at school.?

Do you have any idea what it must be like for ordinary, probably flawed people (i.e. like just about everybody) to have to deal with the fact that their offspring has just committed mass murder? Can you see that they, too, are victims? They have to live with that for the rest of their lives, and they have to (assuming they are normal, reasonable people) cope with those incredible feelings of shame and guilt. They will always wonder what they could have done differently that might have prevented it or given them some signals that all was not right with little Johnny.

On top of that, they have to deal with the fact that in their community, they will be shunned by all their neighbours and friends, probably badly abused by a shockingly high proportion of people who need revenge and think it's OK to get it by making nasty anonymous phone calls, destroying property -- you name it. In most cases, they will have to move somewhere else far away and pray that their past doesn't follow them. It will take years for them to recover, and many never will.

We are now at the point where, no matter what goes wrong in life, we have to have someone to blame for it.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1817 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 18):
As I've already mentioned, so far the only thing these parents are guilty of is not reading the right signs at the right time.

In your mind that's all they are guilty of. I don't believe the whole story is available. Home life has a lot to do with creating such monsters. I'm just saying look close to the nest they grew up in to find some of the reasons.

How hard is that to understand?

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 18):
Why publish their home addresses

I never said to do that. I'm just saying that they should be looked into as part of the problem and that their names should be known.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 19):
Do you have any idea what it must be like for ordinary, probably flawed people (i.e. like just about everybody) to have to deal with the fact that their offspring has just committed mass murder?

No I don't. But then I haven't raised a kid to be a mass murderer by beating them, ignoring them, molesting them, and so forth.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 19):
They will always wonder what they could have done differently that might have prevented it or given them some signals that all was not right with little Johnny.

Uhmm....be a good parent versus the crappy kind that effs up a kid's brain to the point of snapping.

[Edited 2007-12-18 12:04:32]


"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1811 times:



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 20):
In your mind that's all they are guilty of. I don't believe the whole story is available. Home life has a lot to do with creating such monsters. I'm just saying look close to the nest they grew up in to find some of the reasons.

How hard is that to understand?

In my mind? Watch it. Having been a teenager as little as three years ago, I think I know what goes on. And let me tell you, sometimes parents are just cut out of the loop. That's not hard to understand at all.

You want to look closely at them? Fine. Let criminal profilers do the studies though. Not morons like Nancy Grace who just want to cash in on family grief.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 20):
I never said to do that. I'm just saying that they should be looked into as part of the problem and that their names should be known.

Why do their names have to be known if they are to be looked at? Especially since it will not be readily apparent that it's they're fault at all. Innocent till proven guilty. Sometimes you can be a great parent...but your kid will still just grow up to be an asshole.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1804 times:



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 20):
No I don't. But then I haven't raised a kid to be a mass murderer by beating them, ignoring them, molesting them, and so forth.



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 20):
Uhmm....be a good parent versus the crappy kind that effs up a kid's brain to the point of snapping.

This I have to take an issue with. Do you know something the investigators in these crimes don't know? All you have here is hearsay. I'll trust the detectives with the backgrounds of these killers over Johnny Public and the lynch mob. Beating? Molesiting? Unless a police report says so, I ain't going to believe it.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1803 times:



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 21):
Watch it.

Oh boy! Another Internet tough guy.  sarcastic 

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 21):
You want to look closely at them? Fine. Let criminal profilers do the studies though. Not morons like Nancy Grace who just want to cash in on family grief.

Nancy Grace is a worthless cunt (sorry for the harsh words mods but there is no other way to describe her.) I have no issues with the names of the families being known though as the profilers and police do their work though to confirm their crappy parenting skills were partly responsible.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 21):
Having been a teenager as little as three years ago, I think I know what goes on.

And yet you don't have the sense to know what you don't know. Typical kid.  Wink

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 21):
And let me tell you, sometimes parents are just cut out of the loop.

And it is the parents' responsibility to get back into the loop whether their kids like it or not. That's part of being a parent.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1797 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 23):
Oh boy! Another Internet tough guy.

All I'm saying is watch the personal insults. "In your mind" I must be another "internet touch guy". So much for your civility.  

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 23):
Nancy Grace is a worthless cunt (sorry for the harsh words mods but there is no other way to describe her.) I have no issues with the names of the families being known though as the profilers and police do their work though to confirm their crappy parenting skills were partly responsible.

To confirm? Wow, such pre-drawn conclusions. Typical of Johnny Public and the lynch mob. An area parent was once convicted of murdering his daughter. All the neighbors got their TV time saying they knew this would happen all along, etc, etc, etc. Then DNA evidence cleared his name and he was freed. Those neighbors I'm sure will never be able to look the man in the eye. The least they could do is apologize.

The point it, let the investigators do the work. And sometimes keeping certain things mum is necessary to protect justice for those involved. The details can come out in the final report when the case is closed.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 23):
And yet you don't have the sense to know what you don't know. Typical kid.

Yeah, funny. Unfortunately I see no hard proof these mass killers you cited were molested or beaten.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 23):
And it is the parents' responsibility to get back into the loop whether their kids like it or not. That's part of being a parent.

And you don't think the kid isn't going to try to counter that? Believe it or not, but until kids grow up and develop a more worldly sense, they are all about themselves.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 

[Edited 2007-12-18 12:23:55]

25 DeltaGator : And where exactly did I give any personal insults? Oh wait...I didn't. But if you like I'm sure I can come up with a few based on your lack of even l
26 Arrow : I just checked your profile and I'll assume that you either a) don't have kids or b) you do but they're still pretty young. Having raised kids to adu
27 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Gee, who's the internet tough guy now? "In your mind". B4e-Forever New Frontiers
28 LTBEWR : Families may be unwilling to deal with, ignorant to understand or want to hide any of their members mental illness. Many laws in the USA make it diffi
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