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Former US Intelligence Official: Israel Will Attack  
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4780 times:

Former US Intelligence official: Israel will attack Iran

Bruce Riedel, a former career CIA official and senior adviser to three US presidents, including Bush, tells Newsweek he came back from trip to Israel in November convinced that Jewish state would attack Iran. 'Israel is not going to allow its nuclear monopoly to be threatened,' he says

Yitzhak Benhorin
Published: 12.21.07, 12:01 / Israel News

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3485225%2C00.html


I am going to play devil's advocate here: why should Israel be the only nation in the Middle-East allowed to have nuclear weapons?


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
239 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4746 times:



Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
I am going to play devil's advocate here: why should Israel be the only nation in the Middle-East allowed to have nuclear weapons?

Because NONE of the nations on Earth should have them. However some do. Thus we must stop the SPREAD until we can get rid of them all!

Not hard to understand.

Worse still, Iran is run by someone a bit more fanatical than the Israelis. And while I don't trust Israel, as long as they need the US for military support at least they can be controlled somewhat.

They would be wise not to do something so stupid.

I should also add the credibility of the CIA here. They seemed convinced of WMD's in Iraq. Whooops.

So forget devil's advocate. Get your grain of salt out instead. mmmmmmmmmkay?

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4725 times:

I don't think Israel will attack. I mean, would they really be willing to risk World War III just for the sake of making a statement to the Ayatollahs by attacking Iran?

User currently offlineDragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4719 times:

It will not be a good outcome if they attack Iran.


Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4705 times:
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I have no doubt that if the Israelis thought for a moment that the Iranians were anywhere close to developing a working nuke, they'd launch the fighters to go wipe those facilities off the map. they did that in Syria not too long ago, they'd do it in Iran and they wouldn't care what the rest of the world thought. I don't want to sound anti-israeli, but i think it's time the arabs start standing up for themselves, start developing modern armies and modern air forces, maybe even unify their existing resources into a pan-arab military force so that when the Israelis get on the high horse of cultural/moral superiority, and decided to wontonly send fighters into another country, that country has the ability to shoot those fighters out of the sky. The reason the israelis get away with being the bullies they are is because they have the superiority card, the best weapons, the best fighters, well, let's even the cards and see if they still act like the neighborhood bully.


Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4704 times:



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 1):

Because NONE of the nations on Earth should have them.

Then how can you justify Israel having them?

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 1):


Worse still, Iran is run by someone a bit more fanatical than the Israelis.

Someone? Do you have any clue who actually runs Iran? This is really moot reasoning anyway, since even the US is convinced that Iran's nuclear weapon aspirations ended quite a while ago.

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 3):
It will not be a good outcome if they attack Iran.

No. It would be terrible for Israel, terrible for Iran, terrible for the region and terrible for the whole world.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3080 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4696 times:

Sure the Israeli military has a "tough" image in the region, but lets get honest. Chances are they will not strike first. There is just too much to lose, besides worsening the clusterfuck already going on in the Middle East. Does anyone really want a WWIII? Can the US really afford to back Israel in such an attack? Europe? Very doubtful.

Such a war would absolutely require using nuclear weapons in either the initial attack or defending their borders from the reaction of Iran and other ME nations.



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4689 times:



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 4):
I have no doubt that if the Israelis thought for a moment that the Iranians were anywhere close to developing a working nuke, they'd launch the fighters to go wipe those facilities off the map.

 checkmark 

You don't want to mess with Israel! It's like an angry dog in a corner...


AF340 wave 


User currently offlineLnglive1011yyz From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 1608 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4603 times:



Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 3):
It will not be a good outcome if they attack Iran.

Well, I can agree with that.. BUT.. it would be the *easiest* way for the Bush Administration to throw the US Military into a new conflict.

"We cannot allow Iran to attack our friend and ally, Israel".

Mark that down as a direct future quote LOL.

If I was a person living in Israel, I'd catch the next plane out, and settle somewhere else, if this report has any merit.

1011yyz



Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4601 times:

If there is solid intel that Iran has halted their nuclear program, then Israel would be foolish to attack, especially with promising talks ongoing for Palestinian state, which could further isolate Iran from the rest of the region. Isarel doesn't need to attack at this time.

There still may yet come a time when Iran threatens Israel, but now is not the time. Let Iran be for now on that front.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4600 times:

If Israel hypocritically attacks Iran over nuclear weapons then the US should sever ties with Israel and withdraw our ambassador in protest.

User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4597 times:



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 11):
If Israel hypocritically attacks Iran over nuclear weapons then the US should sever ties with Israel and withdraw our ambassador in protest.

And then dismantle our own supply? Hypocracy isn't an answer to hypocracy



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4594 times:



Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 9):
If I was a person living in Israel, I'd catch the next plane out, and settle somewhere else,

Well, 20,000 have moved to Anjuna Beach (Goa) , trippin' to Goan Trance- interesting phenomenon!


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4592 times:



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 11):
If Israel hypocritically attacks Iran over nuclear weapons then the US should sever ties with Israel and withdraw our ambassador in protest.

A wet dream of yours, MD-90?


User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4575 times:

Don't forget about Russia. Didn't Putin say Russia would support Iran if they were attacked?


Word
User currently offlineDragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4551 times:



Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 9):
BUT.. it would be the *easiest* way for the Bush Administration to throw the US Military into a new conflict.

But would it be easy/good for our military? We already have troops in Iraq and on the Pakistan/Afgan border. I think sending our troops and equipment to fight Iran would be stretching our military thin.



Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4527 times:



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 12):
And then dismantle our own supply? Hypocracy isn't an answer to hypocracy

Our own supply of what? Hypocrisy?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
A wet dream of yours, MD-90?

No, it is the rational response that is in the best interests of the American people.


User currently offlineDC10extender From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4517 times:



Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):

I am going to play devil's advocate here: why should Israel be the only nation in the Middle-East allowed to have nuclear weapons?

Because it is their only leverage in a war. If an Arab country got their hands on some nuclear weapons, they wouldn't hesitate to use them on Israel. It is their expressed mission to eliminate Israel.



Did you ever read on your birth certificate that life is fair? Thats cause its not there.
User currently offlineLnglive1011yyz From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 1608 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4504 times:



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 15):
Don't forget about Russia. Didn't Putin say Russia would support Iran if they were attacked?

No doubt --

I think the one thing that the world community isn't really looking at is just how close we really are to a world-wide aggression.

I think the cards are on the table, and it's only a matter of time before someone folds.

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 16):
But would it be easy/good for our military? We already have troops in Iraq and on the Pakistan/Afgan border. I think sending our troops and equipment to fight Iran would be stretching our military thin.

Oh, I certainly wasn't implying it would be good -- just the opposite.

Any more wars, and I believe the US will find itself in a serious problem financially, as well as strength wise.

Again, as I said above -- the fact that the China-Russia-North Korea-Iran connections continue to get stronger, and the US continues to over-extend itself (KUDOS to the men and women fighting -- no disrespect meant to them in any way) in questionable places --- we're closer and closer to a world-wide aggressor stepping forward.

1011yyz



Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5641 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4498 times:



Quoting DC10extender (Reply 18):
Because it is their only leverage in a war. If an Arab country got their hands on some nuclear weapons, they wouldn't hesitate to use them on Israel. It is their expressed mission to eliminate Israel.

A sweeping assumption. There are many Arab countries, not all of them hostile to Israel. I really don't buy into this theory at all: any country, be it Arab or not, would have to think long and hard before using any nuclear weapon against anybody. They would know that in doing so there would be enormous consequences.

And to answer MadameConcorde's question, I don't believe Israel should be the only country in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons.


User currently offlineLnglive1011yyz From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 1608 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4494 times:



Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 21):
And to answer MadameConcorde's question, I don't believe Israel should be the only country in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons.

I don't believe any country in the Middle East should have nuclear weapons. HOWEVER.. if Israel is to possess them, I do believe your statement..

There is room for discussion on whether or not Israel has been an aggressor in the past with other countries (I'm not going to get into THAT one, as it opens a pandoras box..), but any country who has in the past shown to be an aggressive nation, should have people nearby who would be able to help protect themselves.

1011yyz



Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
User currently onlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5682 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4476 times:



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 4):
it's time the arabs start standing up for themselves, start developing modern armies and modern air forces, maybe even unify their existing resources into a pan-arab military force

As if flying passenger jets into skyscrapers and blowing up themselves on a subway wasn't bad enough.  bomb   bomb   bomb  BTW, here's your  trophy  for the most asinine idea of the day.


User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4410 times:



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 17):
Our own supply of what? Hypocrisy?

Nucleur Weapons. We have more than anyone else on the planet.



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4444 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
I don't think Israel will attack. I mean, would they really be willing to risk World War III just for the sake of making a statement to the Ayatollahs by attacking Iran?

If Israel attacked Iran then the whole of the Middle East would attack Israel and then USA would have to decide to either let Israel be left to its fate or go in and fight along side them. If this happened then the US soldiers lost in Iraq would seem like a drop in the Ocean. In fact we would probably all be dead if this happened!!! Very dangerous road to go down .


User currently offlineDC10extender From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4399 times:



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 4):
let's even the cards and see if they still act like the neighborhood bully.

Yeah, why don't we go supply all of the other countries in the Middle East with U.S. weapons. Sure, Israel is the power in the Middle East but they can't afford to be attacked first. It is called preemptive strikes. With these strikes, they can stop a war from happening and still be be alive tomorrow. Israel is seen as the bully but the countries around them are the real aggressors. So if you want a huge World War to start by supplying the Middle East with top notch weapons, that is your opinion.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 23):
BTW, here's your trophy for the most asinine idea of the day.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 



Did you ever read on your birth certificate that life is fair? Thats cause its not there.
25 Mir : No, but they'd be willing to risk it if they sensed impending nuclear attack. -Mir
26 Cedars747 : From my point of view if Israel want to survive than it should attack Iran at once before it's to late ! Alex!!!
27 UAL747 : Bleh, I hate all these Israel/Iran battles. The whole world is acting like divorced parents bickering over child-support and alimony with two bitchy a
28 JCKastrup : Exactly... If Israel attacked Iran, USA would have to send some form of military support to help their very good ally. As it is. USA got troops in Ir
29 EA CO AS : Because Israel is the only country in the Middle East whose neighbors routinely call for its destruction. That's why.
30 Halls120 : I was beginning to wonder why it was taking so long for the most obvious and simple answer to the thread starter's question to be answered.
31 Post contains links Dougloid : Bruce Riedel. Shameless self promoter. http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ta...us&q=Bruce+Riedel&btnG=Search+News
32 Post contains images StasisLAX : Historically, Israel has performed several "surgical" air strikes against military installations and/or nuclear production facilities within neighbor
33 N1120A : Yet Israel is the only one that routinely tries to destroy its neighbors.
34 EA CO AS : I'm far from being a staunch defender of Israel, but HUH?!? It occurs to me that with their substantial arsenal, Israel wouldn't need to "try" and de
35 Post contains images Halls120 : You know, I've seen some posts with spin before, but this one takes the cake. Israel tried to destroy its neighbors in 1948? In 1967? In 1973? You re
36 Dougloid : The reason why that's malarkey is that if Israel wanted to destroy its neighbors, then they'd have bloody well done it. Period.
37 Cedars747 : And in 2006 they failed like never before Alex!!!
38 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Since my other post was delted, I'll repost this...though cleaned for conformity with forum rules. Please show me where I justified Israel having Nuke
39 Flighty : I support Israel's right to defend itself. However, I also support Iran's right to defend itself. So, if Israel hits first, that would mean, Iran sho
40 OzarkD9S : Too bad we don't throw all religions in the toilet and just be people. Too easy I guess......
41 Dougloid : And the proof of it is all over............Lebanon.
42 Allstarflyer : Excellent non-answer Alex!!!
43 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Yeah, except for that nasty inconvenient truth that wars and killing would still go on. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
44 N1120A : Riiiight Israel doesn't use their nuclear arsenal because they know any such action would turn any support they have in the world against them and wo
45 Post contains images Halls120 : you can't expect to ignore your prior incredibly erroneous statement. "Yet Israel is the only one that routinely tries to destroy its neighbors." It
46 N1120A : Which country has actually invaded sovereign territory of late? Which country maintains support of settlements and military presence in areas that ar
47 Post contains images Boeing4ever : It's called common sense and a recognition of the current situation. Neither of these two countries should have them. Unfortunately one nation does.
48 N1120A : Why take the easy way as opposed to the moral high ground. I don't think either should have them, however, I don't think we should condone Israel's p
49 L410Turbolet : Are you seriously comparing some marginal guy with his own TV show (or whatever, I had to google up the name) with a head of state and impact/relevan
50 Halls120 : Sorry, but a late attempt to qualify your original statement by putting a date stamp on it fails miserably. Let's remind everyone what you originally
51 LHStarAlliance : What ?! The last thing I would have expected from you ! But maybe if they get the weapon and it´s proved by a reliable source (not the CIA !)
52 Post contains images Cedars747 : What I mean is that Israel wont survive if Iran goes nuclear. Alex!!!
53 Jacobin777 : ..many Arab countries have treaties and/or do extensive business with Israel...including Jordan, Egypt and the UAE.... During the "Dubai Ports" fiasc
54 Post contains images LHStarAlliance : I'm not sure if Iran would give his own country just for Israel...
55 LTU932 : And also, it doesn't matter how much Hezbollah may or may not be "contributing" to the democratic process in Lebanon, they are still a terrorist orga
56 Dougloid : Neither will Iran or much else in the region. Even you ought to be careful what you wish for.
57 Cedars747 : But at one point the battle of Armageddon must start from somewhere.The only power capable to face Israel in the region is Iran ! Alex!!!
58 Jacobin777 : ...what's missing from this argument is if Iran wanted to "wipe Israel off the fact of the map", it need not be with nuclear weapons.."wiping Israel o
59 LHStarAlliance : Well I think the biggest problem would be an alliance between the Arab countries , first using their power with oil and second their military force .
60 Post contains images MadameConcorde : I thought of a similar idea... During the Bible "times", there was Palestine. Leave it to the Palestinians, i.e. give the land back to them. Your idea
61 Allstarflyer : If Iran does go nuclear - and shows a threatening stance towards Israel with it, Israel will just up the stakes and confront the opponent like they u
62 Post contains links Jacobin777 : ..you mean "play dirty" (as usual) "The UN called Israel's cluster bombing "shocking and immoral", as most were used in the last 72 hours of fighting
63 Post contains images Boeing4ever : The only one taking the easy way out is you. The moral high ground is not, "Iran can have them too". That's reprehensible. It's reckless and irrespon
64 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..the comment was about not being intelligent..not being a "madman"...of which he isn't either.... Making such comments is nothing more than propagan
65 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Hitler survived much the same on populist propaganda. And Hitler was removed from power...by the combined efforts of the many nations he attacked. B4
66 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Of course. I mean, who would expect them to ever act from a position of self-defense?
67 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..big difference, he couldn't be removed internally where as the Ayatollah can.. I guess the word "overkill" doesn't mean much to you, and judging fr
68 Post contains images Boeing4ever : And replaced with what? Another who thinks Israel needs to be wiped out? Iran is not the backwards recluse nation many would have you believe. But th
69 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Would that be anywhere in the same boat as being a target of unprovoked aggression, war and state-sponsored terrorism?
70 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..just like the previous leader of Iran who was a well-liked moderate (who was very rooted in Islam), there isn't anything which is eventually stoppi
71 Post contains images Allstarflyer : . . . if we're clearly identifying who the victims usually are.
72 Post contains images TheCol : Pakistan has them too. Not going to happen any time soon. Do me a favor, and google Palestine 1948, 1967, and 1973. This shows just how dumb you are.
73 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..nope, I was clearly identifying them as the aggressors...
74 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Join me in discussing reality when you're done.
75 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I am...and there are tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, possibly even billions who agree with me...
76 Post contains images Boeing4ever : True enough. Let's hope it happens again. Conservative elements who wish to continue a holy war on Israel. That's what I and most everybody else is w
77 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Reality isn't a relative thing, as in this case you (and your unconfirmed numbers) haven't figured. Meanwhile, Israel will remain sovereign in her te
78 Yyz717 : I hope Israel (with, or without, the help of the US) does attack Iran. Iran is stuck in the stone ages and run by theocratic madmen. Unfortunately, wi
79 Cedars747 : Count me between them ! Alex!!! Israelis[not Jews,because not all of them agree with Israel] are and will remain aggressors until the battle of Armag
80 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Alex, you can't source the make-believe trash you spew. You won't be happy until Israel is a pile of ash, which, thankfully will not happen. Keep pos
81 Cedars747 : I dont have problem with that ,many of my Jewish friends dont believe in Israel as a country! my only problem is the Palestinian and Lebanese kids wh
82 Post contains images TheCol : Maybe you should start a communist revolution. If your comrades Chavez and Castro have such big hearts, they will have no problem spreading the wealt
83 Cedars747 : Well I can assure you that this will never happen any time soon Those powers are not Arabic,they are Americans until the Arabic population (and not t
84 ELAL 744 : What keeps Israel safe? 1. Its close ties to the US 2. Its aggressive stance towards dangers 3. Its nuclear deterrent. If Israel did not have these el
85 L410Turbolet : Obviously you struggle with reading comprehension. Try again. The bizarre alliance of strange bedfellows between lunatic multikulti Eurolefties & qua
86 ME AVN FAN : Demagogery ! Of course, NOBODY would love to see Iran having an A-bomb. But A) Iran is NOT working on an A-bomb, but just on nuclear energy for civil
87 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..but that doesn't have to do with Islam..no where in Islam does it say "Jews or Israel" should be destroyed....that's a common fallacy....even by Mu
88 Dougloid : Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 80): By the way, Alex, just thought you'd like to know - Israel is still on the map I dont have problem with that ,many of
89 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Cool - you stick w/your brand of numbers, I'll stick w/historical facts. At least as much so for their opponents as well.
90 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...what are you historical facts...maybe you can share them with the board... ..not when it comes to the multitude of human rights abuses it can't...
91 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : Sorry, but WHAT "historical f a c t s " ??? please clarify your "facts" ........................ thanks - You can say that every political position,
92 Post contains links and images Allstarflyer : No problem, and for those who can't ingest too much of it, I'll keep it brief, and some of these links were provided by other Anutters in other threa
93 Post contains images Boeing4ever : The problem here isn't Islam itself. It's the powers that be in Tehran who pervert it. The Palestinian cause is one way to stir up ignorant masses an
94 ME AVN FAN : NO, the June-1967 war was started fully by Israel. There was no Arab attack. The 1948-war was an Arab response to the Unilateral Declaration of Indep
95 Yyz717 : There is nothing stopping the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza from creating a wealthy society with a bright future for the kids. All it requir
96 Bok269 : That could work save for the fact that Israel is the holy land for Jews (and Christians and Muslims as well-which is why I fully support the two stat
97 N1120A : The moral high ground is to follow actual facts, as opposed to the fallacy that Iran has a weapons program, something even the US government admits i
98 ME AVN FAN : - > to start a war because 2 soldiers got kidnapped is clearly an extreme and overdone reaction > Lebanon does NOT harbour terrorists. That one of it
99 David L : That would be the Supreme Ayatollah who "won" against the odds when it looked as though a well liked moderate was going to be elected. Yes, he can be
100 N1120A : Who in the world are you talking about? The Supreme Leader (Khameni) wasn't elected by anyone. He was hand picked by Khomeni. If you are talking abou
101 Post contains images David L : Oops - I did kind of get them all mixed up. On that point I'm busted. However, the suggestion that Israel is the only country in the region to attack
102 N1120A : Try reading the post again.
103 David L : My apologies - "tries to destroy" is even sillier than "attacks". OK, let me rephrase: the suggestion that Israel is the only one that routinely trie
104 N1120A : Think the last 10 years. Think the last 15.
105 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..who's deluding who (so Jacobin777 ask rhetorically).....there are countless human rights organisations, including Israeli/Jewish Human rights organ
106 NAV20 : No, ELAL 744. Religious representatives have a large influence on government and over a million Israeli Arabs do not have equal rights under the law
107 Post contains images Boeing4ever : No, no, no, buddy, stick to the issue. Nice try. Nice try. The issue here is the spread of nuclear weapons. You questioned me when I said that no nat
108 ME AVN FAN : No, there were NO neighbouring forces massed on Israel's borders, and there was no intention of attacking -
109 Post contains links N1120A : I am sticking to the issue I wasn't lying about anything. I never said you justified Israel having weapons. Not even Iran claims he is the leader. He
110 Post contains links David L : Oh, really? Then how did the Israelis manage to engage neighbouring forces at the borders, then? Then why these... "After a period of relative peace
111 NAV20 : David L, it doesn't matter who started the 1967 war. What matters is that the issues that sparked it have never been resolved; Israel has remained in
112 ME AVN FAN : These forces were there for years. The mistake of Nasr was to ask the UN to take back their troops. He in fact hoped for a lengthy debate at the UN b
113 David L : Of course it matters if someone twists the facts in accusing one side of starting it without any reason. You need to look at the comments I was respo
114 Blackbird : It would be the perfect segue / segway into a war with Iran... And we all know our government is hell bent on it. Andrea Kent
115 Cedars747 : After the victory of Hezbollah in 2006 I doubt that Israel is capable to attack a giant like Iran Alex!!!
116 David L : We do? Even after being presented with so many reasons why it's extremely unlikely without massive international support? Where would your government
117 NAV20 : Surely it only matters from the point of view of the historians? Who will undoubtedly conclude, in the end, that both sides had a hand in starting it
118 Wingnut767 : It's frequently forgotten that the pre-1967 lines between Israel and the Arab states surrounding it were never formal borders, for the simple reason
119 NAV20 : Wingnut767, with respect, so what? The Sinai was eventually returned to Egypt and the result was a peace treaty with Egypt. One can expect the same so
120 Post contains links and images Boeing4ever : Lawyers never stick to the issue. You're good at twisting words though. I stated no nation should have nuclear weapons, you implied I supported Israe
121 Post contains images N1120A : I didn't say you supported it, I said you justified it. See this? "However some do." That is from your post. The CIA isn't the source for this. The h
122 Dougloid : 1120, I don't want to mess with a fellow mouthpiece, but that picture you have came from Ahmadinnerjacket's "holocaust deniers' conference". It was s
123 N1120A : Actually, it came from his trip to New York
124 Post contains images HAWK21M : If the Nation is under threat,They will. True. No wonder Goa is looking Crowded this Christmas regds MEL
125 Post contains images Boeing4ever : And I didn't justify it. At all. As I've already said, there isn't much we can do in the meantime to those nations that have them. We need to stop th
126 N1120A : Well, given that even the US government admits that Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapons program, perhaps we should focus on the country in the region
127 ME AVN FAN : The only "build up" was in the speeches of Messrs Nasr and el-Atassi - - wrong information. Go to a decent bookshop and ask for the three books of Ki
128 David L : That's not the point. Someone said Israel started it unilaterally and I pointed out that it wasn't as simple as that. If you have an issue with that
129 Baroque : Seems a fair point. But no answer seems to be the reply?? Looks like nothing in 2007 as far as I am concerned then! Cheers Nav and many others.
130 Wingnut767 : Not much time right now. But the short answer would be that Egypt was tired of getting its Ass handed to them and then you had the US Treasury backin
131 ME AVN FAN : - the Arab World is NOT threatening Israel. The Arab League has accepted and recognized Israel a long while ago, Egypt and Jordan have peace-treaties
132 Blackbird : I just hope we don't end up going into war with Iran... for a simple reason "If they bomb Iran, we get drafted". Andrea Kent
133 NAV20 : Of course they're important, Wingnut767. The whole of the Middle East has a shortage of arable land and water. And the Palestinians (aka the 'Philist
134 Baroque : And if they do bomb, they could be withing a whisker of having wars from the Euphrates to the Indus. Excellent concept - NOT!!
135 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Actually, you just demonstrated why Iran gets more attention than Israel...keep reading. Ignoring? More like acknowledging a hard reality. Once a cou
136 Post contains images Wingnut767 : Awww That is so touching. I imagine he was not weeping as much as the families of the dead woman and children blown to bits by the homicide bombers t
137 Post contains images Jacobin777 : .."that tree" (along with other things) as you put is the daily source of bread and butter for many of them...and many have nothing to do with the su
138 N1120A : Do you really think Israel would try and enter a nuclear exchange with the US or Russia, or even the Chinese, if their nuclear weapons stockpile got
139 Post contains images Boeing4ever : The Israelis likely developed (I still say stole) those weapons on the philosphy of "if we go down, we're taking you with us." They tend to be mum ab
140 N1120A : And do you really think they have ICBM capability, or that they could stand up to the US if such a disarming action was actually taken? No, I can't s
141 Post contains images Boeing4ever : You don't need ICBM capability. Popping a nuke on a neighbor or taking them "hostage" by threatening to pop a nuke on them or even finding away to sn
142 N1120A : Doing that would assure destruction 10 times over. You didn't read what I wrote. Direct military action, which is what using a nuclear weapon would a
143 Blackbird : Boeing4ever, You're right -- Israel has that kind of attitude "If we go down, we're taking you with us". They even allegedly said it once saying they
144 Bok269 : Source? Once again, let me reiterate the following. Israel didn't become the so called "bully" because they felt like it. Israel's attitude is the pr
145 Post contains links NAV20 : Surely Israel is a theocratic state, Bok269? Or do rabbis not form part of the government, and do non-Jews have equal rights? As to terrorism, it's n
146 MarSciGuy : I apologize because I didn't read all 138 posts written after this notable, but last time I checked my history, this had been attempted for one of th
147 Bok269 : Israel is indeed theocratic, as I failed to previously acknowledge. That being said, it is not extremist in the sense that Haredi law is not the basi
148 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Which would still cause major headaches for us. We'd be the only nation to not only have used nukes in combat, but to have actually wiped out a whole
149 Halls120 : Blackbird's comment isn't even close to being "fair." We aren't going to institute a draft anytime soon, regardless of what harebrained scheme our le
150 Post contains images Baroque : When I have found a stronger word that pathetic, I will try that. In the meanwhile So Nav, you will have to remind me, where did Arafat Y fit in at t
151 ME AVN FAN : Hitler was mad and GWB is dull - - The number of such attacks you mention is relatively small, the number of Palestinian farms damaged in such ways f
152 Wingnut767 : So you take the part about the tree and not the portion where I show symphathy for the people blown up by the homicide bombers and say I have a disre
153 Blackbird : True... in fact Arabs aren't allowed to serve in the military. And some civilian businesses deliberately use this as a way to screen arabs out of job
154 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Anytime you kidnap soldiers, you're playing with fire. They got complacant, as did Israel. It was a nice three way f*ck up. And the Lebanese are the
155 Bok269 : I didn't say for sure what Palestine would be. I couldn't tell you. Likewise, you have no evidence. All I said was that it was something to consider.
156 ME AVN FAN : and Hizbullah and its Iranian backers underestimated the extent of the "fire" in other words, the whole of Lebanon paid. Innocent people paid. Instea
157 Post contains images Boeing4ever : No kidding. But this doesn't excuse them. They should have known better. Period. The Israeli's, being the powerful military force they are with huge
158 Airlinelover : I think I can sum a lot of this up in one line.. ISREAL+MIDDLE EAST+N KOREA+NUKES=DISASTER.
159 ME AVN FAN : There canNOT be any excuse for either Hizbullah or Iran in this matter. But they clearly underestimated things to come. Whatever their propaganda tol
160 Bok269 : Thanks for putting words in my mouth.
161 ME AVN FAN : - I was N O T putting words into your mouth. If you DISlike the impression your words give, then you ought to express yourself more carefully.
162 Bok269 : Maybe we both ought to: Not true. They aren't required to serve (except for Druze Arabs which are), but there is nothing saying they can't. Bedouins
163 ME AVN FAN : - in this point you unfortunately are right in so far as it is not just a "stability" problem but a problem of understanding democracy. So many peopl
164 Post contains links NAV20 : Happens all the time. Think of Sinn Fein and the Irish Republican Army - or even think of the Founding Fathers and the 'rabble in arms' tarring and f
165 Bok269 : Sure, a few torries or tax collectors might have been tarred, but there was no internal war. I hope you are right. I want to see a Palestine created
166 ME AVN FAN : - I am NOT a clairvoyant. But I might remind you of the fact that Mahmoud Abbas got elected as president in democratic elections. And Hamas will lose
167 Bok269 : I'm sorry I don't understand what you are saying here. Could you please clarify?
168 Baroque : He means that every additional Israeli settlement makes it more likely that those elected by the Palestinians will be from the more radical part of t
169 NAV20 : Really, Bok269, it's obvious. The settlements are on stolen land.
170 Wingnut767 : What is your definition of stolen? Stolen Like the Europeans did to N. America, S America, Australia, New Zealand, Africa, Asia and all points beyond
171 NAV20 : Probably pointless to argue with you, Wingnut767 - but I would define it as 'taken by force from its rightful owners without compensation.' I suppose
172 Windshear : According to a recent study done by 'N1120A', Ynetnews is an Israeli media source which then, according to N1120A, is a source of Israeli propaganda,
173 Post contains images Baroque : Oh well, Nav, there is one positive aspect, the concept of theft appears to be still on the table! Who knows what other "concessions" might follow.
174 Bok269 : I meant that I originally couldn't understand what he was trying to say. Whether or not they are on stolen lands is out of the issue. Both sides need
175 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : Any single additional Israeli settlement provides credibility to the claim of radicals that the Israelis canNOT be talked with and that the Israelis
176 Post contains links Wingnut767 : Stick with more recent history. How did they steal it? Was it taken by force after they had been assaulted? Yes or no And at what point in any of the
177 Wingnut767 : Also by your defintion We probably should stop building settlements in Until we pay compensation Why was it okay when "Palestine" was in the hands of
178 Post contains links and images Leezyjet : Why not, the US has done it many times in the past, and still does :- Iran:- View Large View Medium Photo © M.Razzazan-Iranian Spotters Jordan :-
179 Windshear : First of all Israel never officially declared themselves as a nuclear power, this could be a case of area 51 bullshit for all we know. Rhetoric shmet
180 NAV20 : You brought the Bible into it when you wrote:- However , if you and other supporters of 'Greater Israel' are prepared to agree with my own view - tha
181 Post contains links Baroque : Just to add, since it may be that these issues are not well known. Australia http://www.nntt.gov.au/applications/apps_landing.html National Native Ti
182 Windshear : Honestly this conflict needs to be approached with greater respect for its complexity, if the solution to any conflict was to be found in the mold of
183 Baroque : I think I begin to see. The moment monetary compensation is mentioned it all becomes "complex" and not as simple as right and wrong. How interesting.
184 NAV20 : Oh for Heaven's sake, Windshear. The whole bloody place, Israel AND Palestine combined, isn't much bigger than Melbourne - and doesn't have a much bi
185 ME AVN FAN : Because Jordan is an Arab country and part of the Arab World - The matter mentioned above has NOTHING to do with an assumed nuclear arms capability o
186 Wingnut767 : Like I said I was referring to more recent history below You are the one who jumped to ancient history
187 Post contains images Wingnut767 : Your above statement says who you think the "lawful" inhabitants are. But below MAF says that So I am assuming he thinks they are Arab. Which is it a
188 NAV20 : Inclined largely to agree with that, Wingnut767. But at least we're trying. What astonishes me is that you can readily see, and sympathise with, the
189 Blackbird : You know, I'm Jewish, and I look at Israel and I wonder if the place even needs to exist anymore. It's not 1945 anymore, and Jewish people are not rou
190 Allstarflyer : Care to source that? The Bible, for all the pictures you paint of it, is still an historical book, and Jews are able to trace their ancestry back thr
191 NAV20 : Don't understand, Allstarflyer? I did source it - to 'Exodus' - see post 171 above. One passage even refers directly to the Philistines (Palestinians
192 Allstarflyer : But there's no correlation in Scripture that identifies the ancient Phililstines with the modern-day Palestinians. And, sorry, the link to that threa
193 ME AVN FAN : - French people prefer to live in France rather than in Italy or Germany. Scots, Welsh and English prefer to live in Britain rather than in Belgium.
194 Post contains images NAV20 : 'Philistia' was actually a Roman name, no doubt derived from local dialects. The name 'Palestine' was derived from that and given to the whole region
195 Baroque : Yes, well indeed, difficult to know, but then: While those in present day Israel are clearly descended from those present in Palestine at year say 30
196 Wingnut767 : To me both the Israelis and the Palestinians are combined victims of the UN,UK mess that was created in 1947. But it just seems to me (my perception)
197 Wingnut767 : You are really stretching that Nav. How about a DNA test of erveryone in the area? I do not think Nav 20 will agree with you on this one. Do you Nav?
198 Post contains links Baroque : Errrr. http://www.topix.com/forum/world/iran/TTCDJ8SO0DJQU6V57 "I suggest that if we ask President Ahmadinejad of Iran to take an ancestral DNA test,
199 ME AVN FAN : - while Lebanese and Iraqi mostly are Semites, the Iranians mostly are Aryans / Indo-Germans. So that the Israelis of course are related to Lebanese
200 Blackbird : Interestingly, Ashkenazi Jews are only 40% on average actually genetically tied at all to the original Jews of Israel. Ashkenazi Jews tie back to the
201 Post contains images NAV20 : Wingnut767, #196 is great! We're actually getting closer together by rational argument and beginning to favour similar solutions. Which doesn't happen
202 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Source material really helps in all these claims, and you, Baroque, did provid some, though mostly about other things. We could go back and forth on
203 NAV20 : There cannot be any proof, Allstarflyer, because the only 'documentation' is folklore. In any case, whoever occupied the land thousands of years ago
204 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : - I thought that what I spoke about was general knowledge, but here one of many possible links > www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_brief_hist
205 Windshear : No it all becomes complex, because it is, and deducting complexity like NAV20 did, by comparing the conflict with that of his homeland, is not the in
206 NAV20 : Pleass specify the places where I 'deducted complexity,' Windshear? Admittedly I tend to ignore bullshit, but there's always a lot of that where Isra
207 Baroque : I know that MAF but I just put up that DNA study to show an example of some of the studies. One problem, is that after 2000 years, DNA relationships
208 Windshear : By comparing this conflict to that of the natives in your own country, and forming steps to a 'future of peace' by implementing similar "solutions" t
209 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Nice try, but again you miss the mark, Baroque. Seems I've struck a nerve with the response you've given. The rolling of the eyes was due to this gem
210 NAV20 : Sounds as if you're still clinging to the (to my mind, utterly absurd) 'Biblical claim,' Allstarflyer; trying to prove that the Jews have sole rights
211 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Mmmmm, nice try, but if you recall, I didn't jump into the "who was there first" matter until you after you made this authoritative claim . . . . . .
212 Post contains images Baroque : I do not see what the validity of the analogy has to do with the proposition of compensation. Clearly, it is the money that frightens you. I was goin
213 Post contains links NAV20 : It appears that Iran was very much 'front and centre' in the discussions as soon as Bush arrived in Tel Aviv:- "DUBAI: The situation in Iran includin
214 Post contains images L410Turbolet : ...just to find out couple years later the money "mistakenly" ended up on Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al-Aqsa "Martyrs" Brigade's account? We've seen that be
215 ME AVN FAN : Sure, as long as money was given to the Hamas Prime Minister in Gaza, it was in the hands of Hamas and their buddies. Payments now generally go to th
216 Post contains images NAV20 : That's a complete red herring. The compensation does NOT have to be funnelled through the governments of either the West Bank or Gaza. Any internatio
217 L410Turbolet : The question is why should there be any money paid at all? And what exactly the compensation should be for? Compensation for being led by fanatical c
218 Post contains images NAV20 : Do you want a practical solution to the 'right of return' problem - or are you happy to let the present mess continue for ever? Around 800,000 people
219 ME AVN FAN : Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 217): Compensation for the loss of the land of their families - Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 217): The so called "internati
220 Baroque : That prompts a question to some posters other than you MAF. As compensation is obviously a dreadful concept, then can we expect a rush to repay by Is
221 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Well blow me down....... This is certainly the first time, and almost certainly the last time, that Dubya's thinking has coincided with my own:- "Bush
222 Post contains links Baroque : I thought I would not have to get up much puff to flatten you, mind it is difficult to take much in the way of action when you are yourself prone wit
223 Post contains links L410Turbolet : Oh please, spare me... Had there been no suicide bombers, there would be no wall. Be careful what you wish for they say... You can it have it both wa
224 NAV20 : Yes, Baroque - they're obviously hoping that 'compensation' will be enough to allow Israel to keep all the settlements in the Occupied Territories (a
225 Baroque : Dream away. Although I half agree, it is probably half baked, but so far I disagree in that it is not a deal. Not yet by a long chalk. Had the Israel
226 EvilForce : I find it a bit amusing that people think we can keep 65 year old technology out of the hand of certain nations. How successful have we been in keepin
227 Post contains links Baroque : A good point Evil one. There will be change in Washington, and there has been change in Canberra. While we are small beer, Rudd will no doubt have Ke
228 Post contains links Baroque : A good point Evil one. There will be change in Washington, and there has been change in Canberra. While we are small beer, Rudd will no doubt have Ke
229 Post contains links and images Wingnut767 : WASHINGTON - The United States Congress budget committee has approved the US foreign aid budget for 2007 of USD 21.3 billion. The budget includes aid
230 Post contains links Baroque : Is there something wrong with the Greenbook? http://qesdb.usaid.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe Israel total 1946-2005 $96.8 Billion (63 billion military) Egyp
231 ME AVN FAN : OK OK OK --- I confirm that Egypt indeed DID get and still DOES get billions of US-Dollars. That considerable amounts go to Jordan is undeniable. But
232 Blackbird : Wingnut767, Regarding the 750,000 Jews kicked out of Arab countries? Was this after Israel forced 800,000 Arabs out of their homes? Also keep in mind
233 Post contains links NAV20 : Wingnut767, Blackbird, the 1947/8 situation was an astonishing collision between fact and folklore; and incompetently handled by all sides, especiall
234 ME AVN FAN : - It does not work in such a way - A) Jews out of Arab countries : Jews in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt were NOT kicked out, but in case of Egypt, Jews af
235 Post contains links Wingnut767 : How many did Israel force out? How many left on their own and how many had been told to move out so they could return after the conflict? How about u
236 NAV20 : Wingnut, that's probably at the root of most disagreements over this subject. The overwhelming reason for the wave of sympathy for the Jews in the 19
237 ME AVN FAN : - Most Arab leaders told them either to stay, or just to get out of dangerous places but to stay and wait for the victorious intervention armies. Tha
238 Wingnut767 : So if they never had any intervention armies and instead had negotiated at this time then we probably would not have been having this problem know. B
239 ME AVN FAN : Completely true. And clear in hindsight. But NOT to the Arab World of 1947 who refused to see more than 60% of the good land given to a 40% minority.
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