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Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating  
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1117&p=community&a=6

Quote:
This title may sound strange, but it’s actually not just a way to attract readers to the topic because I really do mean what it indicates. Violence is a broad term, especially when used regarding women. In this piece, I want to shed light on those instances where violence against women is a must.

First, we should know the meaning of the word violence. Longman’s Dictionary of Contemporary English defines violence as “behavior that is intended to hurt other people physically.” However, the term violence mustn’t be confused with other concepts and terms such as gender inequality or absence of women rights.

Occasionally – if not daily – we hear about events occurring in Islamic and Arab societies. Some human rights organizations recently have attacked violent acts against women, standing against any type of violence – even that between a father and daughter – and citing the cases of some women as examples.

Consequently, they offer solutions such as complaining to the police, taking revenge or leaving them men, who are either their husbands, fathers or brothers – with no exceptions.

One such case involved a woman whose husband allegedly had beaten her. Without revealing the husband’s reasons for doing so, such human rights organizations immediately urged the wife to complain to the police and the courts, while at the same time generalizing the instance and other similar solutions to any type of violence.

If a man and woman are husband and wife, the Qur’an provides solutions, firstly reaffirming any logical and acceptable reasons for such punishment. These solutions are in gradual phases and not just for women, but for men also.

....

Dear readers – especially women – don’t think that I hate or am against women; rather, I simply mean to preserve the morals and principles with which Islam has honored us.

I hope my message is clear, since it’s really quite relevant to the future of our societies, which must be protected from any kind of cultural invasion.

Comments?

137 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6848 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

It's never the father's, brother's, husband's fault is it?

Similarly, wives may take actions such as abandoning the marital bed,
...
If a daughter or sister makes a mistake
...
Fathers should handle their daughters via any means that suits their mistake



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

Violence always favours physical strength, not being in the right. "Might makes right" has never been a constructive concept.

It's a good thing that modern societies have abandoned it.


User currently offlineOverlander From Ireland, joined Aug 2005, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3340 times:



Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Comments?

Why do you post it and then ask for comments?

Surely you must have a view on it yourself or do you find it acceptable and hope you may find some kindred spirits?

I find your post unacceptable from many points.

All the best,

Overlander



It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3286 times:



Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.

 checkmark  also from many points.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3283 times:



Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
Why do you post it and then ask for comments?

What's wrong with soliciting comments from others first?

Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.

Why? Surely you must have a view on why the post is unacceptable....


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3277 times:



Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
Why do you post it and then ask for comments?

Surely you must have a view on it yourself or do you find it acceptable and hope you may find some kindred spirits?

I find your post unacceptable from many points.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.


also from many points.

I have made my views pretty clear in other threads, and don't particularly want to repeat them here. I simply want to see people's reactions on the article, and your response I think is very revealing. You attack the messenger when the message does not suit your sensibilities, or presents a problem that you simply do not want to face.

We have been told that the more vicious aspects of Islamic culture (mistreatment of women, intolerance towards different faiths, etc.) are reserved to a small minority of radicals, and that the vast majority of Muslims disagree with such policies, that Islam is a Religion of Peace, yada yada yada.

I disagree. I think those values are far more pervasive, and that they are indeed part of mainstream Islam - I believe that it is the peaceful, tolerant, and "modern" Muslim that is actually the minority. There are many so-called moderate muslims in this forum, and some of my friends are moderate muslims. I say that they are in the minority.

http://www.aljazeera.net/Portal/KSer...pe=0&yourAnswer=0&dispType=1&mode=

Polls in Islamic countries such as this one from Al-Jazeera (it shows that about 55% of respondants support the recent Al-Qaeda bombings in Algeria), and others from Iraq, Saudi and elsewhere clearly indicate that mainstream Muslims do not reject terrorism or barbaric treatment of minorities, women, infidels, etc..


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3772 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3270 times:



Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
taking revenge

I'd like to know exactly which human rights organizations the author of the article believes urge women to take revenge in these situations...

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
Polls in Islamic countries such as this one from Al-Jazeera (it shows that about 55% of respondants support the recent Al-Qaeda bombings in Algeria), and others from Iraq, Saudi and elsewhere clearly indicate that mainstream Muslims do not reject terrorism or barbaric treatment of minorities, women, infidels, etc..

While I believe you have a point here, that those "morals" might be more widespread than we think, I have to say that polls in countries with good infrastructure and a free political system can be utter bullshit. So what about polls in countries where freedom of speech does not even exist? And yeah, I'll believe any poll coming out of Saudi Arabia.

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3270 times:



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.

Why? Surely you must have a view on why the post is unacceptable....

The original poster might have put the article in context by adding some others easily available.
http://books.google.com/books?id=XME...79&sig=v90BuMho7znquNc1qkyct4ehRDE
"The Christian Church" Davidson concludes, "from Constantine on, has had a record of practising and recommending physical abuse to women".

A more general treatment is available at
http://www.bridgew.edu/SoAS/jiws/fall02/historical_perspectives.pdf

There are plenty of crazy proposals on all sorts of topics, why single that one out for comment and why not look at the issue in terms of more considered contributions. Overlander is correct.

FWIW, if you ask GOOGLE to tell you about
Christian justification for violence against women, you get 129,000 hits
Islamic justification for violence against women, you get 89,000 hits

It is fair to point out that in BOTH cases most of the articles are actually about how to prevent it.  Wow! That might have been a more useful topic? No?


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3254 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
The original poster might have put the article in context by adding some others easily available.

He could have, but why is he obligated to do so? Why can't he put his viewpoint out there, and wait for others to respond with the lack of context you have noted?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
It is fair to point out that in BOTH cases most of the articles are actually about how to prevent it.

Life isn't fair.  biggrin 


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3238 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
FWIW, if you ask GOOGLE to tell you about
Christian justification for violence against women, you get 129,000 hits
Islamic justification for violence against women, you get 89,000 hits

That is probably the most outragous attempt at spin I have heard since Clinton's "Depends on the meaning of 'is' is".

I attempted to do what you said, and what mainly comes back are articles such as this:

Quote:
[PDF] 2000 Ending Violence against Women and GirlsFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
alls for action to stop domestic violence against women esca- .... for the “crime” of marrying a Christian. Her brother left her body in ...
www.unfpa.org/swp/2000/pdf/english/chapter3.pdf - Similar pages

where sure enough, you have words like "christian", "justification", "violence against women" do pop up, but you turn the meaning completely around.

Here are the facts. In Western and/or Christian societies, violence against women, honor killings, denial of rights etc. are disapproved of and generally punished where reasonable evidence exists. They are not accepted with a nod and a wink from the authorities as they are in Islam on a widespread scale.


User currently offlineOverlander From Ireland, joined Aug 2005, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3220 times:



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
I have made my views pretty clear in other threads, and don't particularly want to repeat them here.

You will have to educate me further as this is the first time I have read your bigotry.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):
Life isn't fair.

Ahhh bless, It is not a nice thing to be someones attack Poodle.


All the best,

Overlander



It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3215 times:



Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
 checkmark  also from many points.

I'm going to have to go with those..

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
I have made my views pretty clear in other threads, and don't particularly want to repeat them here.

Don't post a topic and expect to not have to justify your views or explain them. If you did in other threads, fine, but they are not this thread. You probably should not have posted this thread if you didn't want to get questioned about your views.



Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13202 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3213 times:

There is absolutly no justification for 'wife beating' or any physical abuse of anybody including children under the guise of a faith belief. Indeed it may be a sin against the faith to do such acts. Some faiths may have structures for a woman to cite complaints against a man, but they are rarely used in the modern day where we have governmetnal agencies to do that. A conflict develops as to certain countries and the 'western' world, as in many places, there is no place for an abused woman to go to or to make a decent income to survive on their own outside of a marriage if they leave their husbands.

User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3206 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
There is absolutly no justification for 'wife beating' or any physical abuse of anybody including children under the guise of a faith belief.

Under ANY belief, for that matter..



Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2474 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3204 times:

"Wife beaters" - one of the lowest forms of life on the planet if you ask me. Subject them to what they dish out, things would be different.  irked 


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3199 times:



Quoting Overlander (Reply 12):
You will have to educate me further as this is the first time I have read your bigotry.

If I said that I feel that Nazism is evil, and should be wiped out, (and let's say I said this 70 years ago), would that make me a bigot? Or a realist?

I believe that Islam, as widely followed today, is just as evil and dangerous as Nazism ever was. And even more so - as there were never 1.3 billion Nazis, nor were nuclear weapons and easy international travel in the mix as well.

This is because Islam, unlike other religions, demands that secular governments (i.e. separation of church and state) cannot be tolerated, and that other cultures and faiths must be subjugated and "made to feel low", and subject to Islamic Law. Read the Qu'ran - it's all in there. The idea of "live and let live" simply does not exist within the confines of Islam.

I am convinced that the 21st century will be the bloodiest century the world has ever seen, and it will take many years and millions of lives before the civilized world even accepts to meet the threat simply out of fear of appearing "bigoted".


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3196 times:



Quoting Overlander (Reply 12):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):
Life isn't fair.

Ahhh bless, It is not a nice thing to be someones attack Poodle.

LOL, i'm more a retriever than a poodle.....

But getting back to the substance of this particular discussion, let's assume I'm a proponent of the death penalty. If I post an article that is favorable to my POV, why should I be required to "balance" that article with one that is opposed to the DP? Because that is exactly what your are criticizing the OP for not doing.

Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 13):
Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
also from many points.

I'm going to have to go with those..

All these "going with" posts are quite amusing.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3184 times:



Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 15):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
There is absolutly no justification for 'wife beating' or any physical abuse of anybody including children under the guise of a faith belief.

Under ANY belief, for that matter..

Wrong. Islam justifies it.

Sura 004.034 (3 different translations)
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said : Many women have gone round Muhammad’s family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you." At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives, but he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings are sometimes necessary to keep women in their place.

Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

Ishaq 969 - Commands that a married woman be "put in a separate room and beaten lightly" if she "act in a sexual manner toward others." According to the Hadith, this can be for an offense as petty as merely being alone with a man to whom she is not related.

In summary, according to both the Qur'an and Hadith, a woman may indeed have physical harm done to her if the circumstances warrant, with one such allowance being in the case of disobedience. This certainly does not mean that all Muslim men beat their wives, only that Islam allows them.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/


User currently offlineOverlander From Ireland, joined Aug 2005, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3182 times:

It is very unfortunate that a very serious matter that happens in all countries regardless of beliefs or culture has been brought up in such a matter.

Regardless of the motives of this thread, it highlights how terrible it is for a woman (or man) to live their life in fear in a place that should normally be a sanctuary - their home.

All the best,

Overlander



It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3173 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 11):
Here are the facts. In Western and/or Christian societies, violence against women, honor killings, denial of rights etc. are disapproved of and generally punished where reasonable evidence exists. They are not accepted with a nod and a wink from the authorities as they are in Islam on a widespread scale.

Now we are getting close to your agenda. I told you most of the hits were how to stop wife beating, but it seems that still came to you as a surprise.

So this will also be a surprise I guess
http://www.wocati.org/tofaeono.html
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN: "You can do to them whatever you wish"
by Joan Alleluia Filemoni-Tofaeono Weavers' Program
South Pacific Association of Theological Schools (SPATS) Fiji Islands

You are going to have to read it to find why she had that subtitle. But a hint:
"In the island Pacific context, religion is the life-giving stream in most communities and the most influential of all is the Christian religion. The ordained ministers who are considered as the earthly messengers of the Christian God are treated with such awe and veneration. They remain still, despite the many changes in society, the most influential persons in the life of the congregation and most communities. The better equipped the ordained clergy are in their theological training to work with persons affected by life crises, the more aware and informed the parishioners will become of their role in the problem and in preventing serious consequences. The application of forgiveness and unconditional Christian love in violent cases only encourages more violence, thus avoiding dealing with the destructive violent behaviors. Forgiveness must go hand in hand with justice. "

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/68708/
Is a bit controversial with a title of "Bush Accepts Violence Against Women as Long as US Allies Inflict It"

For a WHO comparative study
http://www.path.org/files/GBV_rvaw_complete.pdf
For the statistic % of women physically assaulted by a partner in the last 12 mo:
For 8 African countries, range 5% to 27% (Zambia).
Latin America and Carribean (16 countries) range 2 (Peru) to 27% (Nicaragua).
N America 2 countries 1-3.
Asia and W Pac (14 countries) 2% (Indonesia) to 38% (RoK), India on various surveys ranges from 10 to 25%.
Europe 18 countries 2 (Georgia) to 10 (Romania) although a N London survey was 12%.
E Med 3 "countries" 11 to 13 % Egypt, 32% Israel, 52% W Bank and Gaza.

Just another 256 pages to read!!! Many glass houses around it seems.

[Edited 2008-01-04 08:00:21]

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3163 times:



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 17):
The idea of "live and let live" simply does not exist within the confines of Islam.

Nor in christianity.

The liberal modern societies of today are a result of secularization, not of christianity. Our own societies have been very similar to what you ascribe to Islam when christianity was in a comparable phase a few centuries ago.

What the muslim societies need is secularization, not christian missionaries.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3152 times:



Quoting Overlander (Reply 20):
It is very unfortunate that a very serious matter that happens in all countries regardless of beliefs or culture has been brought up in such a matter.

How has it been brought up in a "such a manner" as to be offensive?

Quoting Overlander (Reply 20):
Regardless of the motives of this thread, it highlights how terrible it is for a woman (or man) to live their life in fear in a place that should normally be a sanctuary - their home

Concur completely.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
What the muslim societies need is secularization, not christian missionaries.

Sadly, I don't think we're going to see the necessary improvement any time in the near term.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3131 times:



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
Sadly, I don't think we're going to see the necessary improvement any time in the near term.

Yeah, it doesn't look like it at this time; But I think it is quite possible that the general populations are increasingly getting fed up with the big words, the violence and the total lack of positive results from the radicals (not just in muslim countries, one could add...! ).


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3094 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
The liberal modern societies of today are a result of secularization, not of christianity. Our own societies have been very similar to what you ascribe to Islam when christianity was in a comparable phase a few centuries ago.

There is a very important difference.

Yes, Christianity went through a coniption centuries ago, including the Inquisitions, Crusades and the wars between one sort of christian and another. But they happened due to basic politics. Nowhere in the Bible (specifically the new Testament, due to abrogation) does it say, "Go forth and kill those who don't agree with you". That concept was put forward not by Christian scripture but by power-hungry (and secular) monarchs and clergymen. It took us a while, but we finally realized that the Bible and Jesus' teachings never advocated such behavior.

That is not the case with Islam, which advocates the expansion of Islam by the sword, and the subjugation of all peoples to Islam, and other acts of violence. Muhammed was no Jesus. Jesus was a pacifist. Muhammed was anything but.

The Qur'an:

Sura (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the overall context of these verses is defensive war, however, there are two worrisome pieces to this passage. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution." The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah."



Sura (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Sura (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."



Sura (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."



Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).



Sura (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"



Sura (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



Sura (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"



Sura (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."



Sura (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."



Sura (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."



Sura (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."



Sura (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.



Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


Sura (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"



Sura (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.



Sura (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."


Sura (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."



Sura (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."


Sura (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."



Sura (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."



Sura (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"



Sura (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad, obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.



Sura (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"



Sura (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you,"



Sura (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."



Sura (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"



Sura (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"



Sura (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.



Sura (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites," those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.



From the Hadith:



Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."



Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.



Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious



Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah



Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."



Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"



Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"



Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."



Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.



Ibn Ishaq: 327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”



Ibn Ishaq: 990 Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.


Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
What the muslim societies need is secularization, not christian missionaries.

I don't disagree with you there.


25 Airlinelover : Bullcrap.. There is no justification there. It is beign twisted in such a way. There is ABSOLUTELY NO legal, moral, or ANY justification for wife/hus
26 Klaus : Jesus is also recognized as a prophet in islam, and there are very different interpretations of islam. Of course there are differences, but with ever
27 Cfalk : No twisting necessary. You asked for justification (the rationale which makes and act or decision righteous), and the Qu'ran provides such justificat
28 Klaus : Well, that more or less corresponds with the old testament being used by people to justify all kinds of atrocious behaviour as well. It is just a gra
29 Airlinelover : Not all followers of Islam believe that their religion can justify it either.. It is used by those who want to escape what they did wrong..
30 Cfalk : Which is why both religions embrace the concept of Abrogation - what comes after overrules what came before. In Christianity, the New Testament overr
31 Airlinelover : So that's how they "justify" it? Our god did so we can too?
32 IADCA : The Inquisition and Crusades were, broadly put, internal purges and religious expansionism driven by a mix of political and religious motives. They w
33 Jafa39 : WTF????? its the EVEN bit that gets me....like a daughter is the lowest form of life...WRONG....the lowest from of life is your daughter's boyfriend!
34 ScarletHarlot : Why did you not just title your post, "Interesting article in support of wife beating which I will use to justify my hatred of Islam and Muslims"? Sor
35 Post contains images Klaus : The overwhelming similarities between christianity and islam at comparable ages (in their respective "puberty" as religious movements, in a way) spea
36 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : .. ....the typical comments from thread starter..why am I not surprised? ...also, the verse which the instigator (thread starter) cites is taken well
37 Steeler83 : haha!!! I agree, even lower than cockroaches. Since when does beating your own wife, your life-long partner for richer or poorer, better or worse, si
38 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..absolutely agree...
39 Post contains images Ctbarnes : It seems curious to me how we can cut and paste anything from the Koran off the internet, with little understanding of Islam or its theology, and clev
40 Cfalk : You miss the point. As a Jesuit, you know very well that most Christians are also ignorant of the background theology behind Christianity - Augustine
41 Sbworcs : I will start by saying that I am neither an Islam or Christianity follower. But surely the Bible states that only "believers" will be allowed entrance
42 Cfalk : True, but the judgement is left to God. It is never stated in the Bible that Christians have any duty to go to war against unbelievers. Islam is asso
43 Sbworcs : But surely that is the Terrorist choosing the relegion not the religion choosing the terrorist?
44 Post contains links Baroque : What can I find on the BEEB TODAY. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7172217.stm That is FARC in Colombia - erm Catholic. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/h
45 Halls120 : Even if it is the terrorist who is choosing the religion, the fact that the religion provides the justification for acts of violence ought to be very
46 PC12Fan : A few posts in this thread have just finalized the fact that I will no longer practice any religion. People fight over it, and kill in the name of it
47 Ctbarnes : Are you suggesting such "background theology" is irrelevent? There's a certain self-justirication in that statement which suggests that ignorant, emo
48 Post contains images Steeler83 : Thanks a lot! What else does "Better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness and health til death do we part" mean? Seriousy, when I marry my lady, I am
49 HuskyAviation : I don't agree with this, but even if I did, then isn't that alone a concern? All of these terrorists are choosing the *same* religion to justify thei
50 Searpqx : Actually, he nailed it. Anyone who has read A.net for more than a couple weeks is well aware of your feelings, as you yourself have acknowledged. On
51 Klaus : That point of view firmly occupies my argumentative front door! Very much so. Christianity is simply held in check by secularized, democratic societi
52 HuskyAviation : I disagree that secularized democratic nations are holding Christianity back, as if Christians are just seething, bubbling and bursting at the seams
53 Halls120 : What has Cfalk oversimplified? Let's assume that a Christian author penned the following: "Fathers should handle their daughters via any means that s
54 DC10extender : Whats your point? How often do you hear that a Christian father, brother, etc. has killed a woman on the grounds that she had sex out of wedlock or d
55 Klaus : Seeking the root of islamism exclusively in inherent flaws of islam (or its adherents). No. It is necessary to recognize what the real roots for isla
56 Klaus : It's become less frequent nowadays, but only a few decades ago it did in fact still happen in rural regions of Europe. And of course the respective p
57 Halls120 : Well, let's look at what CFalk has posted. While I'm not sure I agree with the above, it is clear to me that what Cfalk is saying is that there are f
58 Klaus : Your mistake right there is that you've identified islamists with all of islam. We in the west have a hard time even seeing the more moderate muslims
59 Klaus : And that is where he stops at: Islam is evil. Muslims are brutal savages who only understand war as a response. That is the tenor of all his posts to
60 HuskyAviation : Actually, no...I chose the word Islamists very carefully and intentionally, for that very reason. I was not including all Muslims, I was referring to
61 Post contains images Cfalk : You exagurate. You are right in that I have come to believe that Islam is evil. But not all Muslims are evil. Just as you have so-called Christians w
62 Post contains images Klaus : The issue is where you're going with this - and the conventional conclusion is that there will just be a huge "clash of cultures" and in the end only
63 Post contains images Halls120 : Yes. What I'm wondering is, have you missed it by choice. So how do you get "Muslims are brutal savages who only understand war as a response" out of
64 Klaus : That's my - admittedly pointed - extract of many of his posts over the years. I'd be glad to see that I was exaggerating. It was presented as being r
65 Post contains images Halls120 : Maybe in your opinion it was, but it seems that you and many others on Anet are very quick to play the prejudice card simply because someone posts an
66 Klaus : By Treebeard standards I'm probably really hasty, but Cfalk has been very, very consistent across multiple years by now. I don't think my estimate is
67 Cfalk : I think that is your mistake - you see Islam as just a religion, like Buddhism or Christianity. It is not JUST a religion. Islam is an all-encompassi
68 Post contains images Klaus : Not really. Marxism did / does demand complete subjugation of every aspect of life to ideology in its radical form; And so did / does christianity. C
69 EvilForce : My own view is that Christian Fundamentalists are every bit as dangerous as the Islamic Extremists. One is a violent bible beating set of whack jobs,
70 Post contains images Halls120 : When is the last time you spent any significant time in the US? Fifty years ago, you couldn't find an open store in the US on Sunday, except in the m
71 Klaus : One just has to look at the campaigns for the introduction of creationism instead of natural science into school curricula and the cementing of relig
72 Halls120 : The campaigns you speak of regarding creationism have largely been unsuccessful. Abortion might be debated, but there has been no roll back other tha
73 Klaus : When you're looking at the societal differences across the Atlantic, you'll find that the extent of religious influence makes up much of the distance
74 Halls120 : While our religious culture may be more dominant that yours, it is completely inaccurate to say that "evangelical and other religious groups have mad
75 Post contains links and images EvilForce : Riiiiiight.
76 Mandala499 : Cfalk at it again... *yawn* IT'S YEMEN... To me, Yemen = Stone Age... Be the women beaters Muslim, Christian or Jews, the Yemen culture allows the bea
77 EvilForce : Yup. It's quite convenient for the Islamicphobics to ignore moderate countries like Indonesia where over 85% of the country is Muslim yet get along j
78 Halls120 : So post some examples of this so-called increasing domination of religious influence. Are stores now closed on Sunday? Are we celebrating Christmas i
79 Baroque : And WHO reports the rate of mistreatment of women by their spouses for Indonesia at 2%, exactly the same as for the US. The primary factor in this pr
80 Mandala499 : Yes. But then, if you read the whole of his reply, you can see why and where... I hope this reply will enlighten you to see who's doing the wrong thi
81 MD-90 : Apparently it's all just a misunderstanding. From the article: For men, it begins with abandoning the marital bed, by opting to sleep elsewhere in the
82 Post contains links Stratosphere : I have no doubt you are peace loving. But the problem I have and I will not speak for Cfalk is that there are WAY to many wackos in the muslim ranks
83 LAXspotter : Cfalk, what is your hobby : Studying Islam and trying to find everything that is evil about it to fit your political agenda? I guess Lousiville is bor
84 Overlander : Thank you CFALK for educating me about your bigotry. I could say something banal about getting out in the big wide world and meeting people and who kn
85 Baroque : Did you have "red Pontiac" in mind, or "russet Burbank", surely not "Desiree" or "Bison"? Indeed, it is difficult to fault you for not trying. And ve
86 Bravo45 : Studying Islam?????? That would have been something, he uses 'Ctrl + C' and 'Ctrl + V' to pick up stuff online and post it here. Maybe he uses the mo
87 Post contains images Klaus : I think this thread has improved from the thread starter. No need to delete it now.
88 Post contains links Cfalk : Once again, you do not see Christians killing people in the name of their religion. You have been listening to too much Rosie. I appreciate all the e
89 Baroque : Because the west stood by while Saudi Arabia exported Wahhabi Islam to countries around the world, and especially the extremist of the Salafi sect. I
90 Post contains images Bravo45 : Since I am yet to read the last part of the thread, you must be right since you have participated all along. Thanks. If you say so, I take back my ca
91 Cfalk : I won't argue with that. It's true. Well that doesn't make much sense. You can't fix it after getting out.
92 RobertNL070 : [my bold type] Incorrect. Admittedly in this day and age it might be difficult to believe, but religion has little to do with the conflict in Sri Lan
93 Mandala499 : Stratosphere, I hear you and Cfalk, and there's one thing I agree with you guys, there are way to many wackos in the Muslim ranks, and I say that as M
94 Baroque : Well if you want to be picky the casus belli was language, but behind that was ethnicity and behind that is religion and customs. But of course you c
95 Post contains images Klaus : Thank you for your considerable efforts above. I'm aware that yours is "just" another perspective, but it is one which does indeed deserve more diffe
96 Baroque : Great posts Mandala. Than you for your time and being so patient - trims untuk jadi sabar. The ability to comment on sermons seems to have changed in
97 Mandala499 : Ah bugg3r! I've been writing too much today! Should be: A simple "put up one finger, count it... put up another finger, and count it... and you'd have
98 Post contains images Klaus : Good choice, nevertheless. That is probably the area where we all agree the most. Without any disrespect, of course - the same applies to mine and ev
99 Halls120 : It's just too bad that some posters feel the need to delete threads like this. I always wonder what prompts people to be so intent on squelching disc
100 Klaus : Well, in the beginning it didn't look too good. But this thread also shows that threads can improve as much as deteriorate.
101 Cfalk : Thank you for the complement, and the same goes for you. My intention was never to simply slam Muslims. These are thoughts that have been building in
102 EvilForce : You're claiming that the bible is not the word of god to most Christians???
103 Cfalk : No educated Christian would ever claim that it is. The bible is a collection of books written by men over a period of 1500 years or so. Christians be
104 Post contains links IADCA : Well, more than a quarter of the US population in 2006 believed that the Bible is the literal word of God. While I agree with you on your point about
105 Post contains images Cfalk : Like I said, 'educated'. But Americans don't go around wishing people death just because people are not Americans, or Christian or whatever, and they
106 Halls120 : The problem with each and every religious belief is not found in their written creed or doctrine. The problem has always been how the doctrine has be
107 Post contains links and images EvilForce : Wrong. "Books written by men have no unity of thought on even one subject. Some of them invariably disagree with others. But there is perfect unity b
108 Halls120 : Which means that two thirds (at least) of Americans don't believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God. And some that do ignore it when it suits
109 IADCA : They gather in the streets because that's the best way they have to get their message out. Extremist Americans do their hateful spewing on the intern
110 EvilForce : No. Rather if you read the results that the majority of those that don't believe it's the literal word of God do believe it's the inspired word of Go
111 Post contains images Klaus : You are aware that those flag-burning mobs usually number in the tens, hundreds or at most thousands among a muslim population of many millions...? W
112 EvilForce : Agreed. How many times have you heard the phrase "Nuke Mecca", "Bomb them back to the stone age", and other similar phrases? I love how the various o
113 Post contains links IADCA : Sorry, same link posted later in the post. Data's from the Gallup poll referenced in this article: http://www.biblicalrecorder.org/cont...6/05_31_200
114 EvilForce : Yup. Wealth and prosperity are the great pacifiers of mankind. Even regular everyday crime decreases when our own economy picks up steam. When people
115 Halls120 : Well, I work in a Cabinet Department. In my particular Division, there is one Senate confirmed position, and 4 Schedule C positions among senior mana
116 IADCA : Oh, I don't believe that at all. They'll do every bit as much as the GOP has done, and I won't like it any more then. I (however biased, of course) t
117 Post contains images Asuflyer05 : You don't know what you're talking about. Islam is a religion of peace.
118 Post contains images Halls120 : Damn right! Don't buy into the media hype about DOJ being overly politicized during this administration. The only parts of the Department that are po
119 Stratosphere : Well I don't know what to say but I do know this.. When the twin towers were destroyed on 9/11 there were Muslims dancing in the street in Paterson NJ
120 LAXspotter : proof? How exactly does a Muslim look? I doubt Muslim were trying to be Muslim after 9/11 for the fear of getting shot. once again baseless comments.
121 Post contains images Jafa39 : If he saw it with his own eyes he doesn't need to prove it to you, you are not the police and it is not very nice to attack someone's personal experi
122 LAXspotter : Hey, I'm not the one who called Muslim in America asswipes I know that, but he seems to have a problem with his perception of the growing wealth of n
123 Post contains images Jafa39 : Yeah but whenever a country has an influx of "foreigners" who do well, you invariably get this sort of reaction....take Fiji for instance, the import
124 Stratosphere : You bet it's true....My aunt tried to start a small business quite some time ago and for the life of her she could not get a small business loan..a L
125 Stratosphere : I will give you that.. Ok lets say ummm middle eastern. But I will bet my paycheck that he is muslim.
126 Post contains links EvilForce : Your racist diatribe notwithstanding this post is dead wrong. http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/immigrants.asp
127 EvilForce : And I'm sure if you check the archives here at anet, you will have the various Americans lauding, laughing, and celebrating the "Shock and Awe" campai
128 Stratosphere : Bush, Well you will find me in agreement with you on that idiot. I might seem racist hell maybe I am but it is because of things that have happened ar
129 Stratosphere : Oh hey Evil your link on post 126 has dispelled some myths but my statement is spot on. I know TWO immigrants who have benefitted from the money provi
130 Post contains images Baroque : Yeah Lax, simmer down, I mean the last time I was in NZ, there were Maoris waving spears and doing Hakas down the main street of Christchurch. Really
131 EvilForce : Under which program did the receive funds? As an SBA loan? A community action grant? Some other form of loan? As far as any govt. small business prog
132 Post contains images Jafa39 : They do it to keep the Australians away........or maybe they were protesting that they didn't own any gas stations
133 Post contains images Baroque : No, they don't and they do not need to, since they have such ready access to Maori overdrive. But you will never keep us away just with Maoris, too b
134 Mandala499 : Prayers from the Qur'An are done in Arabic. Sermons are done in local lingo. Prayers that are not from the Sura' in the Qur'an are done in the local
135 Post contains images Jafa39 : I had them once....try Immodium Go to your room!...AT ONCE!!!!!!
136 Jamincan : I'm not so sure I agree. It is only with the New Testament that the penalty for not believing became eternal damnation. The Old Testament laws may be
137 Post contains images LAXspotter : again its an inaccurate statement, for one good reason. Most middle-eastern looking people (Arabs) Arab-Americans are about 75% Christian, not Muslim
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