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Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring  
User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1640 times:

Marking the continued turn around since the surge began, the military is saying they could be ready to turn over Anbar province, once considered lost, as early as March or April. It's good to see that Iraqis are finally able to solve their security issues and let's hope that other provinces aren't too far away from the same.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080111/ts_nm/iraq_anbar_dc_2

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2798 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1638 times:
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I heard they were handing it over next week. Shows how much I know!
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1618 times:

Gosh I wonder where all the naysayers are. They just hate good news.

User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2798 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1603 times:
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Quoting RJdxer (Reply 2):
Gosh I wonder where all the naysayers are. They just hate good news.

Amen to that. I love how the press just talks about this for like 30 seconds and then when there is a small IED detonation with no injuries they talk about it longer than this good news. Darn press.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineZOTAN From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1590 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Thread starter):
Gosh I wonder where all the naysayers are. They just hate good news.

I'm glad to here things are turning around, but the national government is still as bad as ever.

Even If we are eventually able to completely pull out, what did we accomplish? The loss of thousands of US troops, most likely more than one trillion dollars, the death of 150,000+ Iraqis, and a world that despises us?


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1579 times:



Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 4):
I'm glad to here things are turning around, but the national government is still as bad as ever.

They have the same problems our government has, neither side can agree on anything.

Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 4):
what did we accomplish?

How many are being raped and tortured at the hands of their own government? Do they now live with hope or continued fear of what their neighbor may say. Ask a soldier whose been there, and re-enlisted knowing they would probably be sent back. They know.


User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2798 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1574 times:
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Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 4):
Even If we are eventually able to completely pull out, what did we accomplish? The loss of thousands of US troops, most likely more than one trillion dollars, the death of 150,000+ Iraqis, and a world that despises us?

We accomplished freedom for millions of people that were being hurt and tortured by the regime of Saddam Hussein. We eliminated a threat that had the capabilities to create a Nuclear weapon some years down the road. The troops died for freedom. When you take that oath to become a soldier you say that you will protect freedoms and that is what they were doing for the people of Iraq. One trillion in aid to a country that needs it bad yeah we really look like idiots don't we. And a world that despises us. Man I love that sentence because lets see here we weren't liked a ton of a lot before the entry into Iraq and we didn't just go in. We had approval by the United Nations a group that has most of the world's countries in it approved by a majority vote. Also we had approval from the Senate and House of Representatives agreed by both sides. Yeah we really did nothing to help anyone. I know soldiers and they were proud of what they did for those people what they didn't like was listening to folks at home complaining about the progress after all the hard work they did.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1554 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 5):
now live with hope or continued fear of what their neighbor may say

LOL, ROTFL

yep, Baghdad is sure swell to live in

Provided that the surge has worked to quell the violence, it is not walk in the park. The fact of the matter is violence is still a reality, violence is still rampant and working and living conditions are poor. The divide between Sunni and Shiite is greater than ever before and any hopes of Political progress on behalf of the Iraqi government is wishful thinking.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
We accomplished freedom for millions of people that were being hurt and tortured by the regime of Saddam Hussein. We eliminated a threat that had the capabilities to create a Nuclear weapon some years down the road

Freedom, lol from what a tyrannical secular governement to a future of secretarian violence that is ever so present. The future holds more violence for Iraqis, its quite easy for you to say that 150,000 deaths of Iraqis were in the name of freedom. A future that is less than prosperous for millions of Iraqis struggling to get by, a shortage of electricty and supplies. The fact of the matter is if Iraq was so great to live in, why the hell then did a Million people leave Iraq out of a population of about 21 Million People.

The government's plan and the GOP plan for the war is until the government of Iraq acheives anything we will be there for a prolonged period of time, the surge was there to quell the violence and to ACHIEVE POLITICAL GAINS which has not happened and the GOP party vows that it will stay there until that happens, which could take forever.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently onlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1291 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1547 times:



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
We accomplished freedom for millions of people that were being hurt and tortured by the regime of Saddam Hussein.

"I guess they'd rather be alive than free...poor dumb bastards" -Full Metal Jacket

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
We eliminated a threat that had the capabilities to create a Nuclear weapon some years down the road.

No, we just moved that threat (the materials and scientific knowledge, if they were there) somewhere else.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
When you take that oath to become a soldier you say that you will protect freedoms and that is what they were doing for the people of Iraq.

I'm glad that you, at age 13-15, are so wise in the ways of soldiers. All my friends who have been over there have been fighting for the US, not the Iraqis. I'll reserve going further as I'm not in the military and wouldn't dare speak for the men and women who put their asses on the line for our country.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
One trillion in aid to a country that needs it bad yeah we really look like idiots don't we.

Yeah, we do. People had it very hard in Iraq before the war, but they weren't starving or dying of curable diseases in waves in addition to being killed by their own people. By contrast, US aid to the entirety of sub-Saharan Africa (where all those problems are widespread) has averaged between 3 and 4 billion a year in the Bush years, which was actually a big bump over prior spending. So, let's see, the neediest people get 15-20 billion total over the time we've been in Iraq, and less needy people get more than 50 times that, a good deal of which is spend fixing stuff we broke. Hate to say it, that looks pretty damn stupid.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
And a world that despises us. Man I love that sentence because lets see here we weren't liked a ton of a lot before the entry into Iraq and we didn't just go in.

Um, there's a large difference between "not liked a ton" and "despise." If you'd like to talk to people at State and tell them that this war hasn't severely negatively impacted our credibility and relationships abroad, go ahead. They'll piss themselves laughing at you. And damn, you're 13-15. That would logically mean that there's pretty much no way you had any meaningful appreciation of our international relationships prior to to the Iraq war, since at an absolute max you were 10 years old then.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
We had approval by the United Nations a group that has most of the world's countries in it approved by a majority vote.

Uh, yeah, but you need more than a majority on the Security Council. That's like saying that because 35 US States ratified the Equal Rights Amendment, it should be part of the Constitution even though you need 3/4 for success.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
Also we had approval from the Senate and House of Representatives agreed by both sides.

Yeah, and the House has no Constitutional role in declaring a war, which we didn't do anyway. We just Gulf of Tonkin-ed it, and Congress spinelessly passing the buck has resulted in a legal and control sinkhole of the first order.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
I know soldiers and they were proud of what they did for those people what they didn't like was listening to folks at home complaining about the progress after all the hard work they did.

And I know guys who came home and said they felt like we were wasting our time. Different soldiers had different experiences. The whole operation has been a mix of successes and failures.

The take-away point of this whole mess is that while I don't think we should have been there in the first place, once we went in deep, it's damn good we finally seem to be getting something done. I'm cautiously optimistic about Anbar, but only cautiously so given what seems to be a mixed bag after the handover in Basra. The problem with this all is that we'll never really know; most of our soldiers only see small sections of the country with much detail and therefore can't speak to the general picture, and what the media gives is mostly second-hand. This is particularly true in places back under Iraqi control. There's no way we'll ever get the full picture of those places, so it's just guess and hope. We lost a lot of people fighting in Anbar, so I sure hope the Iraqis take it seriously. Unfortunately, I just don't have a damn wit of confidence in that country being able to hold together. Our soldiers are the best in the world and they've done a hell of a job, but they can't make chicken salad without any chicken. This war got messed up because the politicians f'ed up, not the soldiers. Now the ball is in the court of the politicians again after the soldiers have yet again done their job. Let's see where it rolls now.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1544 times:



Quoting IADCA (Reply 8):

I remember on National Geographic, there was an iraqi videographer who showed us glimpses of life in Baghdad, we need more things like that. Imagine if such an invasion took place in a more technologically advanced country, we'd be able to rely on blogs, pictures and videos from the Iraqi perspective, welcome to my RU.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2798 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1527 times:
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Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
Freedom, lol from what a tyrannical secular governement to a future of secretarian violence that is ever so present. The future holds more violence for Iraqis, its quite easy for you to say that 150,000 deaths of Iraqis were in the name of freedom. A future that is less than prosperous for millions of Iraqis struggling to get by, a shortage of electricty and supplies. The fact of the matter is if Iraq was so great to live in, why the hell then did a Million people leave Iraq out of a population of about 21 Million People.

Of course the future is going to be violent! When the United States became a nation it was not like we just said we want to be free British and it was peaceful! Of course not all the deaths were in the name of freedom but I bet to you that the Iraqis are a hell of a lot happier now. A million people left Iraq because they now could! They didn't have to worry about being sent back to Iraq and tortured.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 8):
No, we just moved that threat (the materials and scientific knowledge, if they were there) somewhere else.

Where did we send them? Please tell me where because since you seem to know. The government would love that intel.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 8):
I'm glad that you, at age 13-15, are so wise in the ways of soldiers. All my friends who have been over there have been fighting for the US, not the Iraqis. I'll reserve going further as I'm not in the military and wouldn't dare speak for the men and women who put their asses on the line for our country.

I didn't speak for anyone. I spoke for the soldiers I know not the 150,000 in Iraq and who have been in Iraq.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 8):
And damn, you're 13-15. That would logically mean that there's pretty much no way you had any meaningful appreciation of our international relationships prior to to the Iraq war, since at an absolute max you were 10 years old then.

Ok so just because of my age I can have no appreciation for our relations! What the hell does that mean? I see what goes on in the world I read about what has happened since the Reagan administration which in fact was a high for our government. Since he left office the relations with foreign nations has declined and will continue to decline if we don't stop loving ourselves so much and start acting as a people who share a world and who care about others besides themselves.
Blue
P.S. Age has nothing to do with anything. People are certain ages but that doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1524 times:

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
P.S. Age has nothing to do with anything. People are certain ages but that doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.

A teenager speaks. Read everything, knows everything, but has no real life experience. Never mind, when I was your age I was just like you, a know it all. It only took me 20 years to realise what I don't know.

Jan

[Edited 2008-01-13 10:04:51]

User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1516 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Thread starter):
the military is saying they could be ready to turn over Anbar province, once considered lost, as early as March or April

Then again it might not happen. What happens when Iraq and it provinces split along tribal groups like another country that we are currently involved in? Chaos! What did the mainstream media report, the Iraq government has achieved none of the benchmarks set out by the Bush Administration. At this point, I have zero faith in the Iraq government.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1511 times:

What apparently happened in Iraq over the last year is that the Sunnis realised that the foreign Islamists of Al Qaeda were not fighting for the Iraqi Sunnis but for their own goals and just using the Iraqi population for their own ends. With this realisation did the support, which the Islamists previously received, suddenly vanish. People were suddenly willing to report Al Qaeda activities to the authorities.

Jan


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1509 times:



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
Provided that the surge has worked to quell the violence, it is not walk in the park. The fact of the matter is violence is still a reality, violence is still rampant and working and living conditions are poor.

Take a walk in more than a couple of areas in DCA, DTW, or even LAX. You're chances of getting robbed, shot, killed or all three are just as high.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
The divide between Sunni and Shiite is greater than ever before and any hopes of Political progress on behalf of the Iraqi government is wishful thinking.

And your source for this is?

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
The government's plan and the GOP plan for the war is until the government of Iraq acheives anything we will be there for a prolonged period of time

Considering that virtually everyone is surprised at the turn around that statement is becoming more and more untrue every day.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
the surge was there to quell the violence and to ACHIEVE POLITICAL GAINS which has not happened and the GOP party vows that it will stay there until that happens, which could take forever.

The surge was there to help allow for a security situation to help the Iraqi parliment achieve unity. It's happening at the local and regional level. But just like our government, the national leaders have a power sharing problem. That does not take away from the fact that a province considered lost just a year and half ago is now ready for transfer of control. As I stated, naysayers like you hate good news.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 12):
Then again it might not happen.

Unless Al Queda can mount some serious attacks between now and then I don't see why not.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 12):
What happens when Iraq and it provinces split along tribal groups like another country that we are currently involved in?

Such as?

Quoting AirCop (Reply 12):
What did the mainstream media report, the Iraq government has achieved none of the benchmarks set out by the Bush Administration.

I'm glad you're basing your decisions on what the mainstream media is reporting versus what is actually happening on the ground. BTW, how many benchmarks did the democrats in Congress achieve in 2007?


User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1500 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Thread starter):
Marking the continued turn around since the surge began, the military is saying they could be ready to turn over Anbar province, once considered lost, as early as March or April. It's good to see that Iraqis are finally able to solve their security issues and let's hope that other provinces aren't too far away from the same.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 2):
Gosh I wonder where all the naysayers are. They just hate good news.

al-Anbar is becoming more 'stable' because Uncle Sam is paying Saddam's guys to perform the security tasks. And to hunt the alleged al-Qaeda in Iraq people. Makes one wonder why there was a war in the first place if Saddam's people were still going to be in charge (at least in al-Anbar).



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently onlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1291 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1496 times:



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
Where did we send them? Please tell me where because since you seem to know. The government would love that intel.

Many of the scientists went to Syria, and some to Iran. The rest were captured, most likely. The government already knows this. The materials, if they were ever there in the first place, clearly went somewhere else, since we never found any of them. That's rather simple to comprehend.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
Ok so just because of my age I can have no appreciation for our relations! What the hell does that mean? I see what goes on in the world I read about what has happened since the Reagan administration which in fact was a high for our government.

Yeah, pretty much it does mean that. There's a reason older people think teenagers see the world in terms too black and white, simplistic, etc. That reason is that they do. We've all been there, we all thought we were the smartest, best-looking, and generally the biggest swingin' dick on the planet, and then most of us except a select few arrogant pricks opened our eyes at about the age of 22.

What's written in any particular book (or even a fairly large collection) is never the full truth, and given your rhetoric, it appears you're only reading one side of the debate anyway. Before you want to comment on diplomatic history, at least take a decent college course or three in the area. International relations is one of the most difficult academic disciplines to handle (along with history) because it is virtually impossible to come up with any meaningful rubrics for comparison. You can read any number of books on a subject and it will never be like living through an era. While I'm not going to bother to talk about where the high point in our foreign relations credibility was, suffice it to say that Bush has done more to damage it than perhaps any in history. I'm not claiming he's doing any of this deliberately; he's a well-meaning guy who was trying to do the right thing. It's just that the shit totally hit the fan.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
will continue to decline if we don't stop loving ourselves so much and start acting as a people who share a world and who care about others besides themselves.

If this is your view, why the hell are you spouting a right-wing agenda? There's a bit of a logical gap there.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1487 times:

Iraqi ABC capabilities was gone after the first Kuwait war.

User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1486 times:

James... Are you part of the 18% (or so) that actually approves of whatever Bush does?

User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1478 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Thread starter):
Marking the continued turn around since the surge began, the military is saying they could be ready to turn over Anbar province, once considered lost, as early as March or April. It's good to see that Iraqis are finally able to solve their security issues and let's hope that other provinces aren't too far away from the same.

Excellent news! We can pull 100,000 troops out then in the next 90 days right? I'm sure the soldiers and their families will be very happy knowing their loved ones are on their way home next month.


User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1419 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1471 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 14):
Take a walk in more than a couple of areas in DCA, DTW, or even LAX. You're chances of getting robbed, shot, killed or all three are just as high.

Is there anyway to pull up the violent crime stats or random crime stats for the four cities- DCA,DTW, LAX and Baghdad- and do some sort of comparison to see which is the safest or where one has the highest chance of being involved in violent crime?


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1462 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 14):
What happens when Iraq and it provinces split along tribal groups like another country that we are currently involved in?

Such as?

How about Afghanistan for one?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 14):
Unless Al Queda can mount some serious attacks between now and then I don't see why not.

Since when did you become an expert in what is happening in Iraq? From what I hear from family members on the ground in Iraq its not quite as rosy of a picture.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 14):
BTW, how many benchmarks did the democrats in Congress achieve in 2007?

The question should be how many benchmarks did the President vetoed.


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1450 times:



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 15):
al-Anbar is becoming more 'stable' because Uncle Sam is paying Saddam's guys to perform the security tasks. And to hunt the alleged al-Qaeda in Iraq people. Makes one wonder why there was a war in the first place if Saddam's people were still going to be in charge (at least in al-Anbar).

Funny how that worked out in post war Germany.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 18):
James... Are you part of the 18% (or so) that actually approves of whatever Bush does?

Nope, I don't care for his spending policies.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 19):
We can pull 100,000 troops out then in the next 90 days right?

It would be nice but unfortunately only 9 provinces have been deemed ready for turnover.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
How about Afghanistan for one?

Tribal splits do not automatically mean chaos. Unless of course you consider the Taliban to be a tribe.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
Since when did you become an expert in what is happening in Iraq?

I have never claimed to be one. News that a formerly violent province is now pacified enough to be deemed ready for turnover to the Iraqis should be greeted as good news. But as you and several others have taken great pains to show, good news out of Iraq is bad news for some in this country.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
The question should be how many benchmarks did the President vetoed.

Those damn checks and balances get in the way again.


User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2798 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1447 times:
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Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
A teenager speaks. Read everything, knows everything, but has no real life experience. Never mind, when I was your age I was just like you, a know it all. It only took me 20 years to realise what I don't know.

Jan

I don't know everything. Of course I have no real life experience but that doesn't mean I can't apprehend what is going on in the world.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 16):
Yeah, pretty much it does mean that. There's a reason older people think teenagers see the world in terms too black and white, simplistic, etc. That reason is that they do. We've all been there, we all thought we were the smartest, best-looking, and generally the biggest swingin' dick on the planet, and then most of us except a select few arrogant pricks opened our eyes at about the age of 22.

I don't think you understand that times have changed and I guarantee you that if you stepped in a high school in my district you would be amazed at what we know is going on in the world today. We talk more about politics than we do about sports! I don't think I'm a big shot because I'm not. I am low in the chain right know but it doesn't mean I can't put my two cents in if I want to. And maybe I opened my eyes before 22.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1438 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 14):
DCA, DTW, or even LAX. You're chances of getting robbed, shot, killed or all three are just as high.

LOL ROTFL, yep I wouldnt midn taking a walk down the Al-sadr neighborhood of Baghdad or Fallujah at night  Yeah sure . I would be very comfortable in Adhamiya. Just how many Iraqis are coming back to Iraq? Most Iraqis are happy that Saddam is gone, but to think that they have some kind of "freedom" is erroneous, People are not walking out their homes and taking a deep breath in the morning to take in "Freedom", they're scared for their lives whenever they go out in public. Religious extremism has engulfed the country, liqiour stores are targeted, women's salons are targeted and violence is right around the corner, to think life in Baghad in anyway comporable to even the worst conditions in the "meanest" streets in America is unthinkable.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
25 IADCA : I went to what US News ranked as the #1 high school in the country. I know what smart high school students look and sound like. I also know what arro
26 Post contains links RJdxer : Sure they are. What are these people up to then? http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slides...p/7bd13d9edb058517cff423407c3d3341 But go ahead and keep up t
27 Jetblueguy22 : I know we don't go in depth into politics but we do talk about what we do know. And I don't want to sound arrogant but I just put in what I believed
28 Post contains links EvilForce : It never ceases to amaze me what people will convince themselves of. How out of touch do you have to be to think that the murder rate in Iraq is below
29 EvilForce : Actually most experts agree that 2,000,000 Iraqis have left the country. Iraqis were free to leave their country before the war. We aren't talking ab
30 MD11Engineer : It only shows that apparently the majority of the Iraqi population like to have the secular and moderately socialist Baath party in charge, but witho
31 Post contains images Baroque : Interesting how easily the total cost of the war turns into aid. Actual aid 2003 to 2006 was 3.8b, 7.6b, 6.2b 4.4b. Not a great deal. And to add up t
32 Post contains links Arrow : Interesting, too, that the war proponents conveniently forget the impact of all that "aid" money on the still-growing national debt. With the US now
33 RJdxer : No one here has said that. But LAX, as the pictures bely, would have us believe that to step outside in Iraq is an instant death and that the people
34 ME AVN FAN : - and millions of women, many of them highly emancipated, who enjoyed equality and freedom between 1920 and 2003, who could get around without scarve
35 EvilForce : Well I wouldn't be so bold as to say what the average Iraqi thinks on a given day. I haven't been there, haven't talked to them personally, so I real
36 Arrow : There's nothing difficult about it at all, you hardly have to break a mental sweat. Blinkered thinking got the US into this war in the first place, b
37 RJdxer : Neither would I. That is why I posted the story with pictures. Read the story, who is taking over in the province. Again, you have to read the entire
38 EvilForce : But if we've now handed over 1/2 the provinces back to the Iraqis, and murder rates are akin to Detroit or Los Angeles now, shouldn't we be able to b
39 Baroque : Do you really believe a few outside infiltrators could have accelerated that mayhem for years - it was the remnants of the army that was more bypasse
40 Mir : So happy with the new Iraq that they immediately...left it? I agree. But waging war on Iraq does not fall into that category. In fact, it works again
41 Baroque : It is just astonishing Mir, that there is even the beginnings of an argument about this. We know that homicide rates are high in the US and that poli
42 Post contains links RJdxer : You need to read more. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080103.../iraqunrestuspetraeus_080103094401 And before you say why not right now, they didn't al
43 ME AVN FAN : The murder rates in Iraq will go down when Iraqi law-enforcers and armed forces will have it THEIR way, so that this is not a long term problem reall
44 IADCA : Comparing any of those cities with Baghdad is entirely disingenuous. If any US cities had anywhere near the police/military presence Baghdad has, cri
45 ME AVN FAN : As long as it is "American personnel" and a "Green Zone" comparisons do not work. It will be possible to compare when it will be US-American tourists
46 EvilForce : Pretty interesting that we'll be able to pull them out at EXACTLY the same time as our troop rotation requires them to be cycled back home isn't it?
47 IADCA : Fine, if you insist on calling it the FORMER Green Zone, I'll point out that was only ever the Green Zone in military terminology and US temporary go
48 Post contains links Baroque : And you think the fat lady is singing? She is not even in the wings yet. Anbar appears better than it was. But if you believe that in 6 months all is
49 ME AVN FAN : - I anyway spoke about the future and not about the presence. There also are no tourists enroute right now of course. And the "largesse" of American
50 IADCA : Alright, but the guy whose point you were backing was talking about the present, not the future. Sorry I misunderstood you. I agree as to the future,
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