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Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford  
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2930 times:

I think this goes too far. In the rush to worship at the altar of "diversity", people are forgetting that England is historically NOT a muslim country, and this will serve as a daily reminder to local residents that Islam is indeed trying to impose itself.

Not to mention that everyone knows how well tolerated a Christian church ringing its bells would be in most Muslim countries.

I think it might actually backlash, as this would be a daily reminder to that fact. Why is it always us that have to "respect diversity" and nobody else?

Quote:
Oxford bishop backs Islamic call to prayer
By Laura Clout
Last Updated: 2:24am GMT 12/01/2008



The Bishop of Oxford has supported plans to broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over part of the historic city.

Welcoming proposals from Oxford's Central Mosque to sound the call three times a day over East Oxford, the Rt Rev John Pritchard said those opposed to the plan should "relax" and "enjoy community diversity".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...xml=/news/2008/01/12/nislam112.xml

192 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKmh1956 From Bermuda, joined Jun 2005, 3324 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2905 times:

If the Bishop of Oxford is willing to embrace the culture and religious beliefs of the Muslim community and respect their rights to prayer, then who are we to criticize?

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Why is it always us that have to "respect diversity" and nobody else?

If you had to move to a Muslim country with a small but devout Christian community, wouldn't you expect the Muslim community to respect YOUR diverse beliefs?



'Somebody tell me why I'm on my own if there's a soulmate for everyone' :Natasha Bedingfield
User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2905 times:



Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 1):
If you had to move to a Muslim country with a small but devout Christian community, wouldn't you expect the Muslim community to respect YOUR diverse beliefs?

Hell no. I'd mind my own business and keep a low profile to respect THEIR beliefs.


User currently offlineBoeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1835 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2891 times:



Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 1):
If the Bishop of Oxford is willing to embrace the culture and religious beliefs of the Muslim community and respect their rights to prayer, then who are we to criticize?

 checkmark 

I know from friends who lived in the UAE that the prayer calls can be quite annoying, but if I lived in Oxford I wouldn't oppose the principle. It's really no different than church bells ringing. When I lived in rural Austria they really annoyed me at first, but I got used to it.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2885 times:



Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 1):
If the Bishop of Oxford is willing to embrace the culture and religious beliefs of the Muslim community and respect their rights to prayer, then who are we to criticize?

True, but I should think that the decision does not rest with him, it should rest with the local people - I'm sure not all of them wish to hear this thrice daily. Certainly I'm sure that it can be stopped very easily by legal action on the count that it's 'disrupting the peace' - I mean if farmers have to find ways of silencing their cockerels because they crow, then I'm sure such a case would be upheld.

I hope that this does not go ahead, because I agree that it is a step too far.


Dan  Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineEmirates773ER From Pakistan, joined Jun 2005, 1449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2871 times:

I don't think calling out for prayers is a really good idea in a place dominated by non-muslims. Prayers are regularly called out in Birmingham, Manchester and some other big cities but only during 'social hours' at low volume if I remember correctly, but these places also have quite a heavy muslim population.


The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2854 times:

Us, Us, Us and Them...we are all just Ordinary Men...

User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2854 times:



Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 5):
Prayers are regularly called out in Birmingham, Manchester and some other big cities but only during 'social hours' at low volume if I remember correctly, but these places also have quite a heavy muslim population.

They do indeed, but I have never heard them, and I have lived in one of the more ethnic areas of the city now for three years. I understood that it was only for special events that calls were broadcast.

Interesting that the ad on this page for non FC members is 'singlemuslim.com' - I hadn't realised before just how sensitive the ads were to the topic of the thread!


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

this is almost a non-issue, again the poster trying to show the rest of the world how evil these Muslims have become are trying to take over other's countries.



Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Why is it always us

who is us? I tolerate Christians coming to my front door to preach, I refuse politely

Cflak, what do you do, type in Muslims in your news searches trying to show how Muslims are the scum of the earth?



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineIFEMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Grew up in and graduated from Oxford. I'm against the daily calls to prayer. It goes against the tradition, culture, and history of a fine city. East Oxford has a very small Muslim population; this is a load of bollocks.

Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 1):
If you had to move to a Muslim country with a small but devout Christian community, wouldn't you expect the Muslim community to respect YOUR diverse beliefs?

The difference is that nobody HAD to move from their country to England. They chose to. Thus, they chose the culture, tradition, and history. Now they want to change it. Not on.

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 3):
It's really no different than church bells ringing.

Except in Oxford, the bells that you hear ringing are mostly associated with traditional calls to students. For example, the 100 rings at 9pm - a tradition that goes back hundreds of years, has zero meaning, but is an endearing part of the city's history and is much loved my the students and locals alike.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2815 times:



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 9):
Thus, they chose the culture, tradition, and history. Now they want to change it. Not on.

if I'm not mistaken England just like the USA is a multicultural society which means each person has the right to maintain his or her own identity, I dont see how a simple Muslim call to prayer is tainting Oxford. A nearby Mosque to where I live has a call to prayer on Friday's and this place by no means is a majority Muslim place. India which has a minority muslim population of about 12% has call to prayer from Mosques and no one complains. I'm quite sure a lot of the Muslims who live in England now are not immigrants just like how many Muslims in america are Americans by birth.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2811 times:

For years I woke to the call to prayers- the first one is about half an hour before sunrise, meaning about 4:30 in the summer- very annoying. But since I was working in a Muslim country, I kept quiet. But if it was tried in my home town, I be unhappy indeed.

User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2810 times:



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):

BTW, the only argument againt it which I find acceptable is the disturbance which it causes early in the morning which even I find annoying.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineIFEMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2803 times:



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):
I dont see how a simple Muslim call to prayer is tainting Oxford.

Have you ever been to Oxford? From your statement, I'm guessing not. It's a city steeped in deep history and tradition. The city has modernized, certainly, but most of the city, especially the traditions, haven't changed in centuries. Hearing a call to prayer in the city three times a day isn't tainting Oxford? I can guarantee you that anyone who has lived in or around Oxford will disagree and, knowing how the locals tend to defend the local culture and tradition, I won't be surprised if this gets met with strong public opposition.


User currently offlineSaxdiva From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2382 posts, RR: 41
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2788 times:

This might be beside the point, but is there some reason the city's Muslim's can't just wear wristwatches?

User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2785 times:



Quoting Saxdiva (Reply 14):
but is there some reason the city's Muslim's can't just wear wristwatches?

 rotfl   rotfl  , I never though of that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhan



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Why is it always us that have to "respect diversity" and nobody else?

"Us"
Come to India & watch how its done & BTW its a Democracy.
If you want to be a Democracy you need to respect every citizen & their Freedom.

I understand at times it can get into another persons privacy in such case politely convey the message.I really don't know hows its out there.There can be times when people are disturbed,But then there are solutions to tackle them.

regds
MEL

[Edited 2008-01-13 00:10:59]


Think of the brighter side!
User currently onlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 2769 times:

Sounds like just another step in the fight to transform our society into a more backwards, religious one. In a sense it is just like the Concorde being retired - the first time in history a faster means of transportation is replaced by a slower one, a more secular society is replaced by a more spiritual one...

Here at MIT, one of the bastions of technology and scientific reasoning with a long, long history of going against meaningless convention and tradition the admnistration just decided to nominate, for the first time in more than a century, a chaplain, paid out of the students tuition.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4512 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 2757 times:

I am a graduate of Oxford and am also very much against the idea of daily calls to prayer.

Oxford has been formed by almost 1,000 years of history. It is a city of tradition and culture, and has both in bucket loads. Those factors, in addition to the natural beauty of the city, is why I believe it to be one of the loveliest cities in Europe.

Calls to prayer are not part of the Oxonion tradition and have no place as a mainstream part of the city until such time as they are. Oxford managed to get to where it is today largely without the influence of Islam.

By the way, it's not as if there aren't enough Mosques in Oxford. Just go to Cowley road and in some areas you may well think you're in Pakistan....



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineRobertNL070 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 4532 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2743 times:



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 13):
Have you ever been to Oxford? [....]It's a city steeped in deep history and tradition

 checkmark  checkmark 

Indeed. But I think you are talking about the inner city. I very much doubt if muezzins calling Islamic congregants to prayer would be audible in the hallowed streets of the "city of dreaming spires". That would be heard in the not very historical and less traditional East Oxford.

Where I live, we have a sizeable Muslim population. The Muslims and The Hague city council have come to a compromise: the call to prayer can be broadcast before the important afternoon prayers on Friday. I can live with that.

Robert



Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2736 times:



Quoting Saxdiva (Reply 14):
This might be beside the point, but is there some reason the city's Muslim's can't just wear wristwatches?

This seems to be a characteristic that Islam shares with many Christian faiths: an odd prohibition against portable timepieces.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26483 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2729 times:



Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
I think this goes too far. In the rush to worship at the altar of "diversity", people are forgetting that England is historically NOT a muslim country, and this will serve as a daily reminder to local residents that Islam is indeed trying to impose itself.

So, Freedom of Speech and Religion go too far?

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Not to mention that everyone knows how well tolerated a Christian church ringing its bells would be in most Muslim countries.

Ever been to Istanbul?

Quoting Queso (Reply 2):

Hell no. I'd mind my own business and keep a low profile to respect THEIR beliefs.

So, no Freedom of Religion or Speech for you either?

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 9):

The difference is that nobody HAD to move from their country to England. They chose to. Thus, they chose the culture, tradition, and history

They didn't choose a different religion, however.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2728 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

This topic is also showing up in Switzerland in some places. My opinion is that calls to prayer, or anything "broadcasting out loud" having to do with religion (*including* Christian Church bells, btw) shouldn't be allowed.

There is freedom of religion, and I agree that Christians, Muslims, and everyone else, should be free to celebrate whatever they need to celebrate, inside their buildings. But the surroundings who don't have the same beliefs shouldn't have to endure listening to whatever they do, or to their calls. Just as I won't go around the streets shouting "Get a Mac, not a PC!", even if it's my belief  Wink

Anyway, in the country where I live, Church bells ring on Saturdays and Sundays. I understand that this is part of our country's traditions, and it's just the way it is (even if it can be annoying on Sunday mornings when you want to sleep). A muezzin calling out for prayers isn't part of our tradition, and I don't see why they should be allowed to do it, the same way I wouldn't support Christians ringing Church bells in an Islamic country.

I don't expect other people to support my view, but I will fight actively against other religions trying to impose their calls to prayer in our country, and I'm sure the people of Oxford will do the same.

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
The Bishop of Oxford has supported plans to broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over part of the historic city.

It's the people of Oxford who have to decide wether they want to support it or not, for sure it's not the Bishop.



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 2674 times:



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 8):
Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Why is it always us

who is us? I tolerate Christians coming to my front door to preach, I refuse politely

If a Muslim knocks on my door and starts talking to me about Mohhamed, I would do the same, but in Saudi Arabia or Iran, and many other countries, wearing so much as a cross around your neck in public could get you lynched.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):
if I'm not mistaken England just like the USA is a multicultural society

No, it is an British society that has decided not to suppress foreign influences. Which is fine. But Brits should not give everything up in the name of multiculturalism. British history is among the most rich and proud in the world.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Come to India & watch how its done & BTW its a Democracy.

I just came back from India - 2 weeks in and around Delhi. Yes it can be done, but you too are having some trouble with radicals as well.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
So, Freedom of Speech and Religion go too far?

Worship what they want but that doesn't mean they have to rub my nose in it. I've seen muslim services on British TV - that's fine, because I can switch channels. But if I have a mosque down the street I don't want to have to hear the caterwal every few hours. If I did, I would move to Cairo.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Not to mention that everyone knows how well tolerated a Christian church ringing its bells would be in most Muslim countries.


Ever been to Istanbul?

Yes, many times. Note I said "MOST"

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Quoting Queso (Reply 2):

Hell no. I'd mind my own business and keep a low profile to respect THEIR beliefs.


So, no Freedom of Religion or Speech for you either?

It means respecting the local customs and keeping your religion to yourself.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 9):

The difference is that nobody HAD to move from their country to England. They chose to. Thus, they chose the culture, tradition, and history

They didn't choose a different religion, however.

But they chose a different culture.


User currently offlineKmh1956 From Bermuda, joined Jun 2005, 3324 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2661 times:



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
keeping your religion to yourself.

So according to that very small part of your argument alone, Christian church bells shouldn't be rung either.



'Somebody tell me why I'm on my own if there's a soulmate for everyone' :Natasha Bedingfield
25 LTBEWR : And why should this be a problem? Indeed Oxford is a city that is of 'liberal' traditions that education encourages, to be tolarant of others and thei
26 Comorin : I'm sure the sweet sound of Church Bells at 4 am in the morning would be just as annoying! Remember the origins of Islam as a desert and tribal religi
27 Queso : If that "freedom" infringes on the greater peace of the community, no. It would be like me sticking a 400ft. cross on the top of Mt. Rushmore.
28 Analog : Proselytism is required by some religions. So long as one does it respectfully and infrequently to any specific target, it's okay with me.
29 Pyrex : That has probably got to be the most wrong comment I have read in here in a while. All religions are a matter of personal choice, just as how intense
30 N1120A : That isn't rubbing your nose in anything. Like said here, the church bells analogy is a perfect analogy. Well then, do you support Christian evangeli
31 Cfalk : Bells can mean a lot of things. Ever heard Big Ben? They can mark the time, or help celebrate events like marriages. But more importantly, they are a
32 Post contains links Banco : Quite so. And the endless ringing of church bells for hours at a time is a bloody sight more annoying than a brief call from the muezzin. Those of us
33 Fumanchewd : Its funny how some on here demand that they not be bothered by recruiting christians but have no problem with the koran being read to an entire city o
34 Post contains images N1120A : But from a church, we all know what they mean. So, one religion over another is your view? So, I take it you don't support Catholic proselytizing? As
35 AsstChiefMark : Mrs. O'Leary's cow has started a fire?
36 Fumanchewd : BS. They are in Arabic and most contain phrases not contained in the torah or bible but only in the koran. According to this link.. " target=_blank>h
37 Avt007 : Respecting the local customs does not mean you have to support them. When I was in a Muslim country, I respected their religion by not complaining ab
38 Post contains images Fumanchewd : There you go. How about a bell? No koran would be read and it is equivalent to the churches. Fair enough.
39 Mandala499 : All I can say to this one is... "What the...?" While it is good on one side to have diversity and enjoy it, on the other side, if this is not done cor
40 Pyrex : Given the fact that the Head of State is the head of the Church of England as well, and that to aspire to become the head of state you have to profes
41 IFEMaster : That's completely irrelevant. I couldn't give damn whether the call to prayer was for Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas, or those from Th
42 Halls120 : It is? Somebody better tell the Supreme Court. So which category does a bell fall into?
43 Allstarflyer : Not likely. I'd either keep my clapper shut or expect fierce replies, at the least. I'm not exactly how sure the UK parallels the US, but change come
44 Analog : As much as I detest church bells (we have magic devices called watches, pagers and telephones that can be used to delineate time and call people to c
45 HAWK21M : Meet up with the leaders of the communities concerned & reach a common ground.It happens out here. regds MEL
46 Banco : Not really. The opponents of disestablismentarianism include virtually all other religions, who like the idea of a spiritual part of the constitution
47 Halls120 : I don't believe the Supreme Court has ever ruled on the issue of whether ringing church bells is or is not "religious speech." Which is why I challen
48 Kmh1956 : And religious intolerance is alive and well....on A.net......
49 Post contains links L410Turbolet : According to the most recent relevant Eurostat Eurobarometer poll, in 2005, 52% of European Union citizens responded that "they believe there is a Go
50 Post contains links Cfalk : Sure enough, people are starting to get upset about it: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv..._article_id=504373&in_page_id=1770
51 Post contains images Banco : OK, fair enough. Yet I would state that we remain remarkably uninterested in religion. Hardly. " target=_blank>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv..
52 Post contains images SBBRTech : Aren't amongst those who want the Call some British nationals as well? How to deal with that since it's their country also? I think there's a limit t
53 Post contains images Pyrex : Not to mention that if your "identity" involves things such as enslaving your wife or the genital mutilation of your daughters, for instance, our mul
54 Cfalk : But still a proper news source, unlike, say, the National Inquirer. You may disagree with the editorial slant, but the article itself appears to be p
55 SBBRTech : I meant MIT's well known impartiality and focus on science going down the drain after hiring a chaplain....
56 Miamiair : It is not speech. It is a musical note. One thing is for the Jehovas Witnesses coming to the door. I personally don't care for it, nor want to hear i
57 Post contains images Banco : No, you've got me wrong. I would pretty much dismiss the Daily Mail's viewpoint if it was suggesting me for PM (mind you, so would everyone else! ).
58 N1120A : Well, at this point, we aren't talking about something under the Supreme Court's jurisdiction, however... I think bells, particularly ones that send
59 Miamiair : Show me where they are at 0430?
60 N1120A : As opposed to Midnight?
61 Miamiair : All year long? I think not.
62 N1120A : So what. Same difference. At least you can get used to it when it is all the time, not to mention that Church Bells toll year round.
63 Fumanchewd : And I guarantee that there are people who use the same tone of bells for completely non religious purposes. You still haven't answered my statement.
64 Miamiair : I think not. I don't find it appealing to hear some man sound like thay are putting his nuts in a vise.
65 Wingnut767 : The church bell analogy is all wrong. Fumanchewd has the right question. Would the peolple advocating this also be happy if the church in their neigh
66 Banco : If you don't speak Arabic, what IS the difference? They could read out the script of the Teletubbies for all the difference it would make to me.
67 ManuCH : Of course not. And I think he got it right: It's a matter of separation between Church and State. IMHO calls to prayer as explicit as those made by a
68 N1120A : Wait a second now, are you separating church and state or not? If the State is getting involved in banning religious speech, then you are doing nothi
69 Miamiair : How so? Explain.
70 ManuCH : Smart reply. But the way I meant it is that, being Church and State separated, the Church shouldn't broadcast their stuff on public soil, where solel
71 Allstarflyer : I'll believe it when minority interests aren't consistently forced upon the majority.
72 Fumanchewd : Are you saying that there aren't any people in the US who speak Arabic and aren't muslim. That's a pretty bold statement.
73 IFEMaster : As far as I'm aware, in all my years of living in Oxford, there are no church bells ringing as a call to prayer or call to worship. The Carfax Tower
74 N1120A : Explained Excuse me? The State doesn't get to define that when you have freedoms of speech and religion. The only thing the state can do is regulate
75 Miamiair : Typical. That will not happen here, so I have no worries.
76 Banco : Firstly, what's the US got to do with anything here? This thread was about Britain, after all. I know there is the temptation to believe that simply
77 Halls120 : Well, you are the one who made the blanket affirmative statement that bells are religious speech as if it were a definitive fact, so I'm just trying
78 ManuCH : Oh please... you have to *tune into* airwaves to hear them, they're not shouted out loud on the road. I don't want the State to define what one can o
79 Fumanchewd : You're right, I put US by accident. Are there no people in the UK who speak arabic and aren't muslim? It doesn't matter what language its in. Its the
80 Banco : But not church bells? Why not?
81 IFEMaster : Wrong. Part of the CITY's tradition, history and culture. If we're being pedantic and splitting hairs, then the entire country has a religious tradit
82 Post contains links N1120A : Religious tradition, history and culture. Yes it is. Respect a tradition of freedom of speech. Hmm, what were you saying about tradition? You just sa
83 IFEMaster : Wrong, but you keep telling yourself that. Freedom of speech isn't a tradition. It's a right. But that right doesn't allow for intrusive speech or di
84 IH8BY : Good point. Tourists and indeed many of the students who visit the city may not be aware that Oxford has a life outside the historic city centre... t
85 N1120A : No, I am right. The bells go back to the religious traditions of the area. In the UK, it is actually more of a tradition grounded in statute than a t
86 Post contains images ManuCH : Did I say not? In my opinion, it's irrelevant if it's church bells or prayers: if it's disrupting public peace (as in "because it's noisy and it gets
87 Banco : I did actually answer the point though. No, the statute came later. The passionate belief in freedom is what came first, that's why it's a tradition.
88 N1120A : Then you should live in Saudi Arabia. I don't want Mormons coming to my door, but they do anyway. If they don't want to, they can sleep with ear plug
89 Miamiair : or Iran. That will won't happen in the US.
90 ManuCH : So you would like to live in a state without laws? Peace preserving laws don't have any meaning to you? Disturbing peace isn't censorship to freedom
91 N1120A : At least in Iran, you can freely practice other religions. Without laws restricting religious and political speech, absolutely. Well then, if I put a
92 Post contains images ManuCH : No, but as I said, I would endorse stopping the bells from ringing. As I also said earlier, I don't expect others to agree with me, it's just my opin
93 N1120A : And you would lose.
94 Miamiair : I think you won that honor.
95 ManuCH : Probably, as it's part of a tradition. But being woken up at 4 AM by someone shouting isn't a tradition over here. I believe you wouldn't like it eit
96 N1120A : 5 AM. People keep making it earlier in this thread. Further, there are plenty of noises at least as loud at that time of day. No, because you would t
97 Post contains images Halls120 : " target=_blank>http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/read....html Thanks. Now how about answering my other question. Since you made the blanket affirmativ
98 Cfalk : But few so annoying. What part of "Many people don't want to listen to to "Allahu Akbar" sung over crappy speakers at all hours of the day", do you n
99 ManuCH : At 5 AM I don't have many loud noises here. And none as annoying. It's not just a background buzz, it would be someone actually singing/talking at a
100 Queso : I worship Surya deva, so my religion requires that I build a huge parabolic mirror that, because the stars happen to determine the angle the mirror i
101 ManuCH : Irrelevant. Something annoying is still annoying, regardless of the reason. I could believe in a God telling me to crank my stereo up to max volume i
102 Post contains links N1120A : A noise ordinance may or may not work. Further, if the dB level is kept down, then no claim. I just gave you proof of that. Maybe, maybe not. See the
103 L410Turbolet : Screaming muezzin is not. Of course you are wrong, but even a bad lawyer will believe otherwise even if proven wrong 1,000 times. Of course, how coul
104 Post contains images Wingnut767 : Unless you are a homosexual No there is not But what if that was his religion?
105 ManuCH : In Switzerland, a noise ordinance would work if the noise level is too high. Obviously, if the dB level is kept down, and it's not disturbing people,
106 Post contains images ManuCH : Homosexuals don't exist in Iran (I should visit Iran someday, it would void their claim - or they would kill me, whatever applies first)
107 Post contains images Halls120 : What you gave us was a local judge's dismissal of a small claims action! Nowhere did I see the judge rule that church bells = protected religious spe
108 Post contains images Halls120 : Moreover, if a local Mosque's call to prayer was too loud, Rosenbaum instructs us that if an evangelist needs a permit to preach on the street with a
109 N1120A : Saia v. New York states that the use of sound equipment to send religious messages may only be regulated in a way narrowly tailored to hours or sound
110 Sbworcs : I do not follow ANY relegion. However I can see no difference between the Call to Prayer from a tower and the people that stand on my high street ever
111 Allstarflyer : I think you're selectively responding to remarks/questions that you feel you can argue. Still waiting to hear a response to this one . . . . . . whic
112 Skywatch : Uh....nope. Not a smart idea. As for the calls to prayer....I think it would be quite out of place in Oxford. A local church in my neighborhood was r
113 N1120A : That wasn't an argument, it was a statement of opinion.
114 Post contains images Allstarflyer : One you didn't argue. The point is that if both parties have freedom of speech, and there is a conflict - one group wants a call to prayer, using the
115 Kmh1956 : After a while, bells and the call tp prayer would become "white noise" that you don't really notice any more, like the sounds of traffic, garbage can
116 Halls120 : Wonderful. You cite a 1948 SC case that isn't on point. Is that the best you can do? When you actually read the case, it supports the idea that a pro
117 N1120A : It absolutely is. And I agreed with that idea as posted above. The point is that they can't completely ban such action. Why don't you come up with so
118 Post contains images Halls120 : No it isn't, because that case dealt with a flawed ordinance. No one here is saying that a call to prayer can be absolutely banned. At least I'm not.
119 Post contains images N1120A : Neither can I. We have come to an impasse. Who swallows the Iocaine powder? And I never said noise ordinances couldn't be applied. We agree then
120 Halls120 : You know, you really take the cake. YOU make a claim that you cannot support, and instead of admitting that you can't support it, you insinuate we're
121 N1120A : Your whole line was based on my telling ManuCH that he wouldn't be able to stop bells or calls to prayer, and you agree to that. I didn't say anythin
122 Halls120 : Nice try. What my posts in relation to ManuCH are not at issue here. It is this response YOU posted. See it? "A church bell is religious speech." Pos
123 N1120A : No, I wont. I think it is blatantly obvious that it would be considered legal speech if actually brought before a court. The reason it hasn't is beca
124 Post contains images Halls120 : you should be a professional boxer. You duck and weave with the best of them. So you admit that it is just your OPINION that a ringing church bell is
125 Banco : It's truly fascinating to see how a minor issue in another country gets all the Americans hot under the collar and talking about their Supreme Court.
126 Post contains images RobertNL070 : Or as some American members colourfully remark "panties in a wad". You'd think that Oxford, Maryland; Oxford, New Jersey; Oxford, Florida or Oxford,
127 NAV20 : To coin a phrase, 'Quite so.' To quote the article, "Dozens of East Oxford residents have urged the council to reject the plan by mosque leaders to i
128 Post contains images Cornish : I think some are also under the impression that Oxford is just how they've seen it on Inspector Morse too. No idea of the factories, mass of council
129 Halls120 : LOL, we're just getting warmed up for when the fight over broadcast prayers becomes an issue on this side of the pond. Actually, the issue of religio
130 L410Turbolet : Exactly. Shouldn't this principle apply foremost to those who demand muezzin's calls for prayer?
131 Post contains images Banco : The point I tried to make earlier, but got jumped on by lots of people who plainly think they know more about living here than a succession of Britis
132 Banco : Why? It's a free country. People are allowed to worship whoever they choose, and if a mosque wants to lodge an application with the council, what's t
133 NAV20 : If you mean that only one religion should be tolerated in a given country, L410, you're on the 'slippery slope' that leads to religious intolerance a
134 Banco : Precisely. But I get the distinct impression that it's Christians opposing this idea because they're Christians, and just paying lip service to the i
135 Cfalk : Guys there is a difference between allowing people to worship how they like, and allowing them to proclaim over loudspeakers for up to 6 minutes per
136 Banco : All religions proclaim they're the one and only true faith. All are talking the same degree of complete bollocks. Once again, a mosque is making a re
137 Cornish : and lets not forget that the original link was referring to the Bishop of Oxford (whose diocese this would happen in) not having a problem with it -
138 Post contains links NAV20 : Having been brought up as a Catholic, Cfalk, I have to disagree. The Church of England specialised in insulting 'everyone who believes differently' f
139 SBBRTech : Then I'd say you have enrolled in one of our fine new christian (evangelic) churches where they believe that SHOUTING INSANELY until their lungs expl
140 Arsenal@LHR : A very valid point, how is it that every time there is a story regarding muslims in the UK, all the non-UK members here get themselves in a hysterica
141 IH8BY : It's bizarre though... it's all kicking off about imposing Islam on the poor people of Oxford. Not only was that the big story in last week's "Oxford
142 N1120A : WOW SIX WHOLE MINUTES!!!! Shock and AWE!! Come on now. No, it doesn't say that and you are either making that up or misinformed. I will assume the la
143 Cfalk : Here are the texts from above. The first few lines of that are fairly absolutist, and brook no argument. That in itself offends me, because I persona
144 IH8BY : Arguably, though, they shouldn't, for the sake of reminding us that fundamentalists aren't the only school of thought in Islam and indeed for the sak
145 Post contains images Banco : Good to see enlightened Christianity in action.
146 YOWza : A religious scholar too are we? YOWza
147 N1120A : That God is great? That Moslem's aren't pagan? I think all those Christian Fundies who talk about "My God is an Awesome God" are saying something sim
148 Cfalk : What does Christianity have to do with this? You are looking at the wrong part. THE messenger. Not A messenger, THE messenger. As in there is no one
149 N1120A : Well, Moslems believe Mohammad is the one who had the Koran dictated to him. A whole hell of a lot. No, see, you are the one that did that.
150 Fumanchewd : Again, it utilizes phrases from the koran verbatim that are not found in the bible or torah. Now, how is it not islamic?
151 Cfalk : Explain What are you talking about? I have put forward my position, and explained the reasons behind it. You have not.
152 N1120A : Because the concept of "God" isn't an Islamic one, it is a generally religious one. No you didn't. You called Mohammad a pedophile and compared him t
153 AGM100 : Might I suggest a wrist watch ? One that you can look at and say ..Hey its time for me to pray. Their you go entrepreneurs.. wrist watches that do the
154 Post contains images Banco : I wonder how it would go down to suggest Christ was a homosexual, given that he was unmarried in a time when it was extremely unusual for that to be
155 Post contains images N1120A : Or the other suggestion, that has some significant research behind it, that Jesus had children, potentially with a former prostitute. Or that all thi
156 Fumanchewd : Yes the concept is. But the messages of the call are islamic in that they are only in the koran. Either way, an atheist shouldn't have to have it bro
157 N1120A : An atheist who believes in freedom of speech and the freedom to be an atheist will accept it.
158 IFEMaster : You're going round in circles. Anyone who supports freedom of speech, atheist or otherwise, will object when that speech becomes intrusive and unpeac
159 Post contains images Halls120 : are you really surprised? And intrusive speech will be subject to reasonable regulation, be it religious or otherwise.
160 Fumanchewd : Great. With that logic comes the broadcasting wars of 2010-2025. The catholics purchase a 2000 decible blessed speaker system in the shape of the pon
161 Impacto : Thats an understatement. Mind you, this was your initial purpose for starting this thread (Islam trying to impose itself) Who are the "Us" and what c
162 Halls120 : A worthwhile plea. Unfortunately, religion has been doing its level best to drive wedges between people since the dawn of man.
163 N1120A : There is nothing inherently unpeaceful about a call to prayer. Further, civil rights are occasionally intrusive when some don't agree with viewpoints
164 Cfalk : Try reading the Qu'ran, the Hathith, the Sira, and the Sunnah. It's all in there. He bedded one of his wives (Aisha, if I recall), when she was 9 yea
165 N1120A : That is highly suspect, and leaves out that Aisha was an extremely influential person in his life and exerted a great deal of influence over Mohammad
166 Cfalk : He never did. Anyway, you can't compare the life of Jesus, a pacifist who preached love and charity, who never harmed anyone, with Mohammed's life.
167 N1120A : Ok, now the credibility is zero in ANY religious argument.
168 Cfalk : You keep coming up with these outrageous statements and not supporting them a whit. Try again.
169 N1120A : The statement is supported by your obviously biased outlook toward religion.
170 Post contains images Cfalk : I back up my arguments with facts straight out of Islamic texts, you back up with nothing, and YOU complain. Yes, I am biased, and I have explained w
171 N1120A : My bias is well known. Religion is a fallacy. God is a fallacy. Out of YOUR interpretations of Islamic texts.
172 Cfalk : Fine. So, what are YOUR interpretations of the subject matter?
173 N1120A : The guy was a statesman living in the 600's, and acted in accordance with what similar people would do.
174 IFEMaster : Good lord...are you reading what you are saying? You just agreed with what I've been saying...this must be regulated in the fashion that you have des
175 IH8BY : Intrusive, yes, quite probably - it's intrusive in Cairo too. But tainting a beautiful city? I'm not sure I'd go that far. If it was in the centre of
176 Banco : That's a ridiculous argument. There's no positive evidence for the life of Jesus at all beyond the gospels (highly contradictory, and in many cases p
177 Cfalk : "Statesman" is a huge stretch. But the rest of your statement is true. Life was brutish and short on the Arabian penisula at the time. Everyone belon
178 IFEMaster : Next time something is going on at Southfield - a band playing or a fare or something, stand on Magdalen Bridge and you'll hear it loud and clear. Al
179 N1120A : Do you celebrate Christmas?
180 Mandala499 : Go and re-read what I wrote in the "wifebeating" thread. I strongly suggest you read Yusuf Ali's English translation of the Qur'An... since you're so
181 Banco : The Bible does, incidentally. Slaughtering loads of people (what we would call genocide) is fairly routine in it.
182 Fumanchewd : This is true. But they don't believe that he was anything but a prophet, which is highly contradictory to christian beliefs. No son of god, no crucif
183 Post contains images Banco : So the Qu'ran's not all ludicrous then?
184 Delta767300ER : I really dont see a problem as long as the Adhan is not excessively loud. I dont have a problem with church bells as long as they are not excessively
185 Mandala499 : That is why we're not christians... if you want the most definitive theological and fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity, that is it
186 HAWK21M : Why 4am.In Mumbai its 0500hrs.Thats Azan for muslims. Then theres the Arti ceremony of the Hindus & the Church bells of the Christians. The Sikhs hav
187 Fumanchewd : I have my suspicions with all religions. But I wouldn't be so cavalier in being cynical with things that mean so much to so many. I have heard otherw
188 Banco : That it means a lot to them isn't really relevant. You can tell a terminal cancer sufferer that he's going to be fine and it might make him feel bett
189 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - Sounds a bit noisy, but refreshingly diverse ! - You indeed heard correctly. According to the Koran, Isa was saved from being crucified, but his st
190 Mandala499 : FUmanchewd, that is correct... I had a look back at the passages... one needs to do that from time to time to be reminded. But yes, in our belief, God
191 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : he possibly uses hearing-aids usually but not at night ?
192 Mandala499 : I see his agenda now! He approves of the Adhan, so his congregation would complain to him and hopefully become more Christian in the process... Meanwh
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