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Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?  
User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2848 times:

In the New York Times today, they have started a series of articles on the issues our veteran's face post deployment. Here's a quick excerpt from the 7 page story located here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html?pagewanted=1&hp

Quote:
The New York Times found 121 cases in which veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan committed a killing in this country, or were charged with one, after their return from war.

Of those murder cases the breakdown is as follows:

Quote:
Three-quarters of these veterans were still in the military at the time of the killing. More than half the killings involved guns, and the rest were stabbings, beatings, strangulations and bathtub drownings. Twenty-five offenders faced murder, manslaughter or homicide charges for fatal car crashes resulting from drunken, reckless or suicidal driving.

About a third of the victims were spouses, girlfriends, children or other relatives, among them 2-year-old Krisiauna Calaira Lewis, whose 20-year-old father slammed her against a wall when he was recuperating in Texas from a bombing near Falluja that blew off his foot and shook up his brain.

A quarter of the victims were fellow service members, including Specialist Richard Davis of the Army, who was stabbed repeatedly and then set ablaze, his body hidden in the woods by fellow soldiers a day after they all returned from Iraq. And the rest were acquaintances or strangers...

The article discusses how our soldiers who have been deployed for far longer than former troops receive little to no mental health help whatsoever upon return. All of this happening too while Walter Reed Veterans hospital was turning a blind eye to the suffering of its patients. Are we really "supporting our troops", or is it just a bumper sticker slogan? It's pretty clear to me that many of these guys are suffering. I have 2 friends that have returned from Iraq changed people. Why do you think soldiers are coming home and killing like this?



68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

Well, when you have hundreds of thousands of armed men in a violent and extremely tense environment for a year or more on end, I would suspect that a percentage could be a little highstrung on return.

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2831 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
Are we really "supporting our troops", or is it just a bumper sticker slogan?

What have you done for the American Soldier today? This week? Last month?

When we get past that, then maybe this thread will warrant a response.

Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
It's pretty clear to me that many of these guys are suffering

Suffering what? Your two friends or everyone? You are somehow qualified to make this call?

Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
New York Times

 sarcastic 


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2817 times:



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
What have you done for the American Soldier today? This week? Last month?

Since you are such a nice guy about it  Yeah sure I'll say that today, I'm bringing this to the attention of others who just might talk about it with their friends and/or relatives.

Last month I volunteered at the local Veteran's Hospital for 2 days over the Christmas break. Some of the things I saw prompted me to write a letter to my respective Congressan & Senators. I've volunteered before as well and contribute what I can to a local charity that supports the families of deployed soldiers.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Suffering what? Your two friends or everyone? You are somehow qualified to make this call?

I said many, not all. I said 2 of my friends were changed people. I've known and met far more than that which led me to my statement of opinion.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
When we get past that, then maybe this thread will warrant a response.

Excellent. Please be careful you don't sprain an ankle when dismounting off your high horse. Perhaps you'll grace us with a response.


User currently offlineRacingGreen07 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2793 times:

I think perhaps there may be psychological reasons behind these killings.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 1):
Well, when you have hundreds of thousands of armed men in a violent and extremely tense environment for a year or more on end

Perhaps those particular soldiers didn't have proper post psychological evaluations completed which would of discovered symptoms of violence or rage. Or there seething rages were hard to detect at the time...

Perhaps it was the fact that these soldiers were kept in a war (violent, dirty and grim) setting for such an extended period of time without a break.

I'm pretty sure the US has a system in place where psychologists and post-war support for these veterans is readily available without cost. Please enlighten me...

On the flip side, look how many veterans are coming back (after a year or longer) to the United States and living happily with their families (some of them members on A-net) DESPITE being in a war setting with guns, bombs and dead body parts strewn across the ground. You don't see them going out on murderous rampages. I think they have coped very very well either because they are sane or because they received the right psychological support when they needed it.

Personally, I don't think I could go through such psychological torture....but then again you never know until your in that situation.

Regards


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2780 times:



Quoting RacingGreen07 (Reply 4):
On the flip side, look how many veterans are coming back (after a year or longer) to the United States and living happily with their families (some of them members on A-net) DESPITE being in a war setting with guns, bombs and dead body parts strewn across the ground. You don't see them going out on murderous rampages. I think they have coped very very well either because they are sane or because they received the right psychological support when they needed it.

You make a very good point. Obviously the vast majority aren't coming home and having this meltdown. I think these murders are good indicators that a lot of veterans aren't getting the mental help they need. Granted most won't murder but are they having hard times coping with violent behavior, drug addiction, PTSD, and other issues? Should we be doing more to make sure these vets are "ok" mentally and emotionally after rotation?


User currently offlineShyFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2760 times:



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 1):
Well, when you have hundreds of thousands of armed men in a violent and extremely tense environment for a year or more on end, I would suspect that a percentage could be a little highstrung on return.

Exactly. There was a series on the Discovery Military channel some time ago (I forget the name) that followed the members of an Arkansas Army National Guard unit from pre-deployment all the way until after thier return home. On of the soldiers mention that even after being home for a while, something as simple as someone standing beside the road as he was driving around town made him very nervous.

I don't remember any of the post deployment counseling being shown, save for a presentation to the troops along the lines of "if you need to talk, here's a phone number to call." The impression I was left with was that post deployment counseling for our troops is virtually non-existent. I hope I'm wrong about that.


User currently offlineRacingGreen07 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2727 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 5):
Granted most won't murder but are they having hard times coping with violent behavior, drug addiction, PTSD, and other issues? Should we be doing more to make sure these vets are "ok" mentally and emotionally after rotation?

Well, in my personal opinion, I believe that we should be doing more to help veterans cope with their life post-war....

I don't know if I remember correctly but such programmes outlined by yourself (veteran support etc etc.) have been implemented within the United States. But my memory is a little bit vague on that one.

I also think that the general population of the United States would like to see after care for veterans. Because if they can support their troops during the war, surely they can support the same troops AFTER the war. But if they can't support their troops after the war then you are correct in saying that a bumper sticker saying "we support the troops" is just a bumper sticker and means nothing...

It's a fact, war does change people, its not your average 9-5 office day. These troops aren't robots, they are humans and therefore will suffer great mental trauma as a result of what they see and do in Iraq, Afghanistan or whatver country they are fighting in and as a result they need care when they get back or else they'll fall apart mentally..

Regards.


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4677 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2727 times:



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):

What have you done for the American Soldier today? This week? Last month?

Besides being a complete fallacy, what does this matter? He asked if you (as Americans) really 'support your troops' or if it's just a claim. What does that have to do what he has done for the American Soldier and why should that limit your involvement in this discussion? I for one haven't done a thing for the American Soldier (perhaps gave the US some tax dollars that might go to the troops) or for the Dutch. Does that make me less of a person?



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2715 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
In the New York Times today, they have started a series of articles on the issues our veteran's face post deployment. Here's a quick excerpt from the 7 page story located here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html?pagewanted=1&hp

Quote:
The New York Times found 121 cases in which veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan committed a killing in this country, or were charged with one, after their return from war.



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 1):
Well, when you have hundreds of thousands of armed men in a violent and extremely tense environment for a year or more on end, I would suspect that a percentage could be a little highstrung on return.

This is typical, NYT putting stuff out as a "story", which really isn't.

Quote:
From the October 1, 2001 start of the Afghanistan war, that's about 26,000 troops/month. To date (Jan 2008) that would give about 1.99 million.

That means that the NY Times 121 murders represent about a 7.08/100,000 rate.

Now the numbers on deployed troops are probably high - fewer troops from 2001 - 2003; I'd love a better number if someone has it.

But for initial purposes, let's call the rate 10/100,000, about 40% higher than the calculated one.

Now, how does that compare with the population as a whole?

Turning to the DoJ statistics, we see that the US offender rate for homicide in the 18 - 24 yo range is 26.5/100,000.For 25 - 34, it's 13.5/100,000.

See the problem?

So the rate of murders committed by returning troops is anywhere from one half to a quarter of what it is for the general population.

NYT didn't mention that, eh? Wonder why...

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/the_media_does_it_again.php

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4870 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2704 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 3):

Excellent. Please be careful you don't sprain an ankle when dismounting off your high horse. Perhaps you'll grace us with a response.

classic!

I was going to start a thread about gangs in the military after seeing a report on TV (I bring that up because killings and gangs seem to go hand in hand) but I refrained from doing so because I knew that even just starting the thread would draw the ire of the military/far right contingent. Who would then do the following:

-Question what I had done for the military or had ever served.
-Discredit the source
-Question my motivation behind bringing up the topic.

This happens without fail in every US military thread.

As for the topic at hand, high stress for relatively low pay will screw people up irrespective of their profession.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2697 times:

The Times stated that the basis for the article was the fact that the murder rate committed by vets/soldiers increased 89% during this "War on Terror" period. It stated as its disclaimer on page 2 of the story:

Quote:
This reporting most likely uncovered only the minimum number of such cases, given that not all killings, especially in big cities and on military bases, are reported publicly or in detail. Also, it was often not possible to determine the deployment history of other service members arrested on homicide charges.

The Times used the same methods to research homicides involving all active-duty military personnel and new veterans for the six years before and after the present wartime period began with the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.

This showed an 89 percent increase during the present wartime period, to 349 cases from 184, about three-quarters of which involved Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans. The increase occurred even though there have been fewer troops stationed in the United States in the last six years and the American homicide rate has been, on average, lower.



User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2680 times:



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 9):
So the rate of murders committed by returning troops is anywhere from one half to a quarter of what it is for the general population.

Good point. But, out of (I am pulling this out of my a$$) 500,000 troops, 121 killings does seem to be a large number for a city of comparable size. Correct me if I'm wrong. But even in a city of 1 million that would seem to be high.

I think that this is nothing new or shocking though. This isn't a new syndrome. Its been documented since WWI and has been around much longer than that.

I agree that we should insure that our troops are mentally fit upon return, but I don't think that it is plausible to expect the numbers to be anywhere near 0.

After all, war is hell (so I've been told).


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2680 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
This happens without fail in every US military thread.

Oh? I've only recently started posting / reading in the non-av section so didn't realize that. I used to only post on the civilian av section.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
As for the topic at hand, high stress for relatively low pay will screw people up irrespective of their profession.

I think it would be interesting to see how the deployed folks of firms like Blackwater do upon return. I'm not sure if pay would affect you one way or the other regarding mental health, but I suppose its possible. I wonder if the Blackwater type firms have a more rigorous mental health evaluation? Not sure what kind of health insurance those firms have for their employees. Anyone have any experience with this?


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2670 times:



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 12):
Good point. But, out of (I am pulling this out of my a$$) 500,000 troops, 121 killings does seem to be a large number for a city of comparable size

If you read the article I linked, you'll see that we passed the 1 million mark back in 2005.

And as discussed, the RATE is significantly lower than the general population in the 18-34 age range, indicating that veterans have a BETTER ability than the rest of us to control themselves.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2664 times:

Does anyone have a comparative anlysis to compare the rates of incidents amongst returning soldiers to that of incidents amongst the general populace? No of course not. That uncover the fear mongering on the part of the Times


General population: 299,398,484
General population murders 17,034
The general population murder rate 5.7

Pretty straight forward. However, here's where things get sideways.

Soldier population in Iraq/Afghanistan: 200,000
Soldier related Murders 79
Soldier murder rate 39.5

Seems shocking right? Higher than even DCs crazy murder rate? Or is it? No, it's not. That's just the troops IN theater. It doesn't count troops who have rotated through. If we add in all the guys who have rotated in and out of theater we get more than half a million soliders.

Soldier murder rate now at: 15.8

Still scary high right? Well, no. The study sample of soldier murders is flawed in that it takes all samples of murderds by returning soldiers since the war started, not just an annual sample like a proper crime study does.. so it's inflated. That's four years of crimes... so 79/4= 19.75 homicides annually. A murder rate of 3.95 for veteran soldiers. Lower than the general population murder rate by almost two full points.

Yes, soldiers coming back from a war zone have problems that need dealing with, and our government is doing (and has always done) a pretty shitty job of it. To pretend it's a crime issue though, is pure BS.


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4677 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2656 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 15):
Does anyone have a comparative anlysis to compare the rates of incidents amongst returning soldiers to that of incidents amongst the general populace? No of course not.

You might want to read reply 9 and rethink that comment  Wink.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2655 times:



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 14):
And as discussed, the RATE is significantly lower than the general population

But the general population has repeat offenders, previous felons, and other criminals that the military doesn't allow amongst its ranks.

It's like saying employees of airlines who have undergone full FAA background/security checks are less likely than the general public to murder someone. Apples and oranges.

As I pointed out the murder rate within the group itself rose 89% vs. the same period of time otherwise.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2650 times:



Quoting JRadier (Reply 16):
You might want to read reply 9 and rethink that comment .

Hey, you gotta give me some time to type up my replies. I actually stop and take time to do the proper research and math...  Wink


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4677 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2638 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 18):
Hey, you gotta give me some time to type up my replies. I actually stop and take time to do the proper research and math... Wink

Age: 26-35
You're just getting old. You had 21 minutes  Wink.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2638 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 17):
As I pointed out the murder rate within the group itself rose 89% vs. the same period of time otherwise.

Not definatively. The Times, by it's own admission did research by delving through newspapers for headlines. Awfully odd method considering the information they wanted could easily have been gained on request from the DoD. Yes, convictions are available under FOIA requests. Now why wouldn't the Times want that rock solid information?


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2631 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 20):
Not definatively. The Times, by it's own admission did research by delving through newspapers for headlines. Awfully odd method considering the information they wanted could easily have been gained on request from the DoD. Yes, convictions are available under FOIA requests. Now why wouldn't the Times want that rock solid information?

Did you read the NYT article? It said:

Quote:
To compile and analyze its list, The Times conducted a search of local news reports, examined police, court and military records and interviewed the defendants, their lawyers and families, the victims’ families and military and law enforcement officials.



User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2622 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 21):
Did you read the NYT article? It said:

Yes I did. And no where in there does it say they ever saw any DoD convictions fiqures.

Do not assume that "examined.. military records" refers specifically to military justice files. It could just as easily refer to discharge papers, enlistment papers, or a request for GI issue whity tighties. The way the article was written clearly indicates that the Times had to compile thier fiqures from multiple sources instead of going directly to the definative source.


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2604 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 22):
The way the article was written clearly indicates that the Times had to compile thier fiqures from multiple sources instead of going directly to the definative source.

Maybe the reporter didn't want to exclusively rely on the use the DoD records. Besides the 121 are actual, confirmed cases. As it said that number is quite likely to be higher, and perhaps much higher.

The thing is the reporter is trying to put a human face on a problem. If the murder rate was 321 people, or 221, or 121, or 21 the question I asked is still valid. Are we doing enough to "support our troops", and their respective mental and emotional health issues upon their return home? Should we be doing more? Can we help prevent more of these murders?


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2592 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 23):
Maybe the reporter didn't want to exclusively rely on the use the DoD records.

My bet is that they didn't actually have any DoD justice records or they would have directly mentioned them, much less referanced them at some point.

This report was straight from the Department of Pulling Numbers Out Of Our Bums.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 23):
Are we doing enough to "support our troops", and their respective mental and emotional health issues upon their return home?

Not by pretending that they are a criminal threat as the Times has just done...

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 23):
Can we help prevent more of these murders?

And you just did.

What part of them having a lower murder rate than the average citizen is bad to you?


25 SKYSERVICE_330 : You're right, it isn't a crime. That said, it is still awful that men and women put their life on the lines for their country and suffer personally/m
26 Post contains links EvilForce : They are pointing out that these people need help. The article mentioned the problems we suffered by ignoring the mental health of the vets from Viet
27 Post contains images Greasespot : I read the article and I did not see it as "returnig vets are criminals" I read it as "perhaps with more resources avaliable to the vets maybe 121 of
28 Post contains images SKYSERVICE_330 : Thats how I read it. The article is raising the fact that there is a group of people committing crimes that are, essentially, preventable if the gove
29 Fumanchewd : With all due respect, that is an unfounded supposition from these numbers. I don't think that this article means anything, I think we should be proud
30 Wrighbrothers : Well, people react to war in one way or another, it's just that people react to it differently. Some come back from it dissilusioned with the world an
31 MD11Engineer : After every war there are veterans, who can't fit into civilian society. Sometimes there are outlets, like e.g. after WW2 many German veterans joined
32 Captoveur : 121 out of how many deployed since.. 2003? Seems like a pretty useless statistic. There have probably been 121 cases of UPS drivers flipping their lid
33 EvilForce : Perhaps, but I think you missed the point. If there had been a sudden increase in murder of 89% committed by UPS drivers don't you think that would i
34 MDorBust : There is still no support anywhere for the 98% increase figure. Even if it is true (which I highly doubt) then it's an increase in homicides from 10.
35 SBBRTech : That's an interesting subject. Do you mean gangs formed later in the war zone? There's a video showing some USMC soldiers, mostly black, smashing an
36 Yellowstone : It's 89%, not 98%, and the support is in reply 11. It's straight from the article.
37 Post contains links and images Queso : Well, judging by the map, looks like soldiers from West Texas are some of the most well-adjusted. Maybe it's because we really appreciate our soldier
38 Cfalk : Which has already been shown to be BS...
39 MDorBust : Typo on my part. I used 89% in the calculations then mistyped it in my post. Because it is in the article, does not make it true. Especially for arti
40 LTBEWR : It is a very narrow group to have such a high rate of murder, especially as to family members, and much higher that other groups of soldiers since the
41 MDorBust : .... Except that analysis shows there isn't a "high rate of comitting murder".
42 EvilForce : So you are saying you think everything is hunky dory and that our post rotation troops are well adjusted, mentally and emotionally adjusted well enou
43 MDorBust : No, now go back and read the last part of post #15.
44 EvilForce : Ah, my bad. You said "Yes, soldiers coming back from a war zone have problems that need dealing with, and our government is doing (and has always don
45 Post contains images MDorBust : Well, from a criminological point of view, it's just the opposite. It's a very strong indication that this particular group is less violent, and less
46 Andz : I love it. Nothing yet....
47 Yellowstone : Really now? Show me the right statistics, then. Or are you just pulling out of thin air this claim that the NY Times did it's math wrong? Look, you c
48 Kmh1956 : You go to war; you kill; you see buddies killed; you see atrocities most people only have nightmares about.....it's going to change you. I think prior
49 Singaporegirl : a very good friend of mine (an ex sia girl too), recently returned to s'pore after divorcing her american soldier husband. i've known her for years an
50 MDorBust : Simple, clear, mathmatical proof that the NYT is doing nothing more than fear mongering with the article. Am I the only one that notices the problem
51 ANCFlyer : Exactly the reason this thread was posted in the first place . . . .
52 Yellowstone : I've got to run off to dinner here, so I'll just respond to this point real quick. I'm not sure how you read "fear the murderous Iraq War vets" into
53 MDorBust : That's easy, and obviously I'm not the only one that read that... for example: Soldiers are coming home to kill? And there's no fear mongering going
54 Post contains images EvilForce : Wrong. I tried to use the exact headline the NYT did but it was too long for this forum. I noticed you didn't bother to add your 2 cents as to how mu
55 TUSaadvantage : So challenging practices of our government when thousands of lives our on the line is a bad thing? Last time I checked, this was part of a healthy de
56 WorkFlyer : As someone who subscribes to the online NYtimes (As well as a bunch of other papers around the world) I know I have read in the past all kinds of art
57 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Not at all, I challenge them all the time. Veterens get treated like shit, IMO . . . . from 1600 Pa Ave to the local VA clinic . . . of that I've no
58 Post contains images EvilForce : You don't know me from Adam. You haven't any clue as to why I started this thread. I started the thread for the very same reason I stated. I think th
59 Post contains images ANCFlyer : I'll take this at face value . . . and that said: I agree 100% . . . Commendations of your letters to the Congress . . not that I think E-Mailing/Mai
60 Doona : Then wouldn't you agree that this thread was a good idea (in hindsight), so things could be cleared up? I'm setting myself up to be slammed, because
61 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : And btw if you ask me what I have done for the army today, this week, last month etc., basically since I have retired...so I have to tell you that I
62 Post contains links and images YOWza : It's more about desperation for troops that recruiting is going on in areas dominated by gangs, inner city areas etc. There have been scores of gang
63 Post contains images AGM100 : OH My how the press loves these stories with .." a deeper meaning" .. ooooo I would take any veteran on my team over those empty suit bum's at the NYT
64 Post contains links EvilForce : The NYT has done dozens of stories on the Vets post rotation. The good, the bad, and the ugly. In fact I just checked, and over the past 12 months th
65 Post contains images Allstarflyer : What gets me most of all this . . . . . . is not the that came to mind when I read that part, but this . . . . . . which should have been included in
66 CaptOveur : They aren't. Is there help out there? Yes. However, the type of guy who trains his entire life to shoot someone in the head or knife someone in the b
67 Queso : Honestly, that's not the ones you have to worry about because ironically they are the ones who are more mentally stable. It's the ones who try to pre
68 Glydrflyr : For the definitive refutation of the NYT story, please go online and read the New York Post opinion piece in the Jan. 15 edition by Ralph Peters. (pag
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