AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7430 posts, RR: 41 Posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2707 times:
For the first time since the Concilium Vaticano II a mass has been oficiated with the priest, in this case the Pope, giving his back to the curchgoers. The way I see it, any hope of Catholic Church reform is going to wait a few years with this character at its helm. Sad.
SW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6489 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2656 times:
Reform of the Church isn't Benedict XVI. He never pretended to be for change...in fact, he was ALWAYS about keeping (and in some cases returning to) strict Catholic rules and doctrine. Yes, reform will have to wait until the next Pope, or perhaps longer. But one cannot criticize a Pope who always preached on old-school Catholicism for not reforming...
(On a side note (self gloss, which I never do) - I was lucky enough to take Communion at the Vatican on New Years Eve...maybe I WILL go to Heaven after all...ok probably not )
Quoting SW733 (Reply 3): Reform of the Church isn't Benedict XVI. He never pretended to be for change...in fact, he was ALWAYS about keeping (and in some cases returning to) strict Catholic rules and doctrine
And why is that bad?
Quoting SW733 (Reply 3): Yes, reform will have to wait until the next Pope
Did I ever say it was bad? Did I ever say I wanted reform? No. I was clearing up why there has been no reform (perhaps to make the Catholic Church more liberal), which apparently is what AR385 (not me) wants. I don't think major reforms will happen very often, but there will be nothing (I bet) in my current Holy Father's reign to make the Church very different in any way - especially more liberal.
Falstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6388 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2460 times:
Quoting EvilForce (Reply 1): Why would a religious leader turn his back on his flock
I am an Episcopalian and it is very common for the priest to have his back to the crowd. Just happened yesterday while I was at church; St. John's Episcopal in Detroit.
It isn't as common now, but when the church uses the 1928 prayer book you see more old school stuff like that. I can't speak for Catholics, but turning away from the crowd is probably a very traditional thing to do.
EvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2453 times:
Quoting Falstaff (Reply 6): It isn't as common now, but when the church uses the 1928 prayer book you see more old school stuff like that. I can't speak for Catholics, but turning away from the crowd is probably a very traditional thing to do.
Interesting. Is there a reason for this? What was the purpose originally for this?
It just seems odd to me, so I assume there must be some tradition to follow and that there was a reason at one point why it was done this way.
You learn something new everyday. I've never heard of this practice before.
I don't really know because I have always gone to a church where it is done and I never thought twice about it. I think it may have something to do with that the priest is facing the alter in the same direction as the parishioners. That way everyone would be facing the alter. It is only done during the part of the mass. The readings and sermon are done facing the audience.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2419 times:
The position of women in catholic church has always been kind of a mistery and misery for me.
Female energy is systematically supressed in most religions -specifiacally in christian ans islamic religion.
Ratzinger continues the dark side of male-chauvinistic dominance within the Vatican.So if there is any reform he should atteck-it's this one ! (combined with the permission of priests to be married..)
Once you read the apocryphal Gospel of Mary Magdalene,you wonder where we male chauvinists dare to take control of christianity..
It's very interesting reading and highly recommended to all those to dare to speak in the name of the Catholic Church..
(like most gnostic textes are much more inetresting to read than the sa$nitized versions of the official Gospels..)
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2393 times:
The issue with the bible is that it is a sanitized text based on assumptions by people who wrote it long time after Jesus died.
Mary Magdalena and other apocryphal texts (who are not neccessarily Gnostic ) who have been suppressed by the church( becaus they don't fit their doma..) are the true core of the Christian religion.
707cmf From France, joined Mar 2002, 4885 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2379 times:
Much a fuss over really... not much.
First of all, this is not the first time a priest celebrates a mass while turning his back to the attendants. It happens, from time to time, usually when the configuration of the church in question mandates it.
Check this picture of the Sixtine Chapel :
Masses are seldom celebrated there, and as you can see, the only altar in it makes it impossible to celebrate the Mass while facing the people.
Another note : the Pope yesterday celebrated the Paul VI ("Vatican II") mass. Not the 'controversial' St Pius V mass.
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11454 posts, RR: 73
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2354 times:
Oft times when leading a flock you must walk the direction you wish them to follow. They will see your back then, and it is no disrespect.
Many who wish to find fault with the new Pope would do so at any opportunity, and the effort to diminish his authority as Pope by referring to him by his birth name rather than his new title are the same who get offended when one refers to a transgendered individual by their birth sex. I find this somewhat hypocritical, and disrespectful.
Opinions will vary, and I'm not Catholic, but until the Pope starts acting like a warmongerer calling for the destruction of nations and ethnicities then he doesn't deserve the level of disrespect shown by many here.....who would probably wilt in the presence of the man and show nothing but deference and politesse. If he continues to disallow women in the pulpit or to decry birth control then I've got grievances with him, but there's a difference. Until he really does something about the sexual abuse problem in the Catholic church (other than sweep it up and cover it up), like become more realistic and allow priests to marry, then I've got real issues with the Church in general (you cannot live in this day and age celibate, and in the old days they never bothered to do so unless it was voluntary anyway).
The ones who mock and show open disrespect generally do so because they feel powerless to do anything else. If you really want to make your points, then do so without the invective or silly comparisons. All you're going to do is rile up the faithful and focus the argument on your use of mockery rather than the points you really have.
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21615 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2340 times:
Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 21): What a cheap shot. And you're saying that only the Catholic Church does that? Over-generalize much?
I have not claimed that the catholic church was the only religious group to act that way. Many muslims appear to have the same combination of disparate attitudes towards women, or patriarchal societies in general all over the world.
Confuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3963 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2321 times:
And at the same time treat women as second-rate human beings. Not a rare combination in any way.
Paying for their brothers' sin...
Thursday, October 4, 2007 Sisters can't live near church
BY COLBY FRAZIER
DAILY SOUND STAFF WRITER
Three nuns who were evicted from their Nopal Street convent in August by the Archdiocese of Los Angeles will be allowed to continue living and working in Santa Barbara city limits, according to a letter delivered to the nuns by their superior general on Oct. 1.
The only catch: they can’t live “near” Our Lady of Guadalupe Catholic Church, which their current convent is directly next to, said Ernie Salomon, a spokesman for a group called Support our Sisters of Bethany in Santa Barbara, which is trying to raise money to relocate the nuns.
The convent is one of several properties owned by the Archdiocese that have they claim will be sold to help pay a $650 million priest sex abuse settlement.
Lowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2306 times:
Quoting Confuscius (Reply 24): And at the same time treat women as second-rate human beings. Not a rare combination in any way.
Now how is the church selling a piece of property they own treating women as second rate human beings. It didn't say they were throwing them out on the street. The article also does not give a reason that the next residence cannot be near the church, but I would think it has something to do with property values and the need to profit from the sale. Would you rather the church simply declare bankruptcy and not pay? Wait, then they would be an airline...
AndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2301 times:
For those who did not know, the Catholic Church only recently introduced mass in the language of the region. Prior to this, it was only in Latin.
At the same time, priests would give masses giving their backs to their flock, as they would always face the altar. The altar was moved to allow the priest to face their flock and altar at the same time.