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Family Holiday In The US? Just Don't Get Sick!  
User currently offlineZentraedi From Japan, joined Jun 2007, 660 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

Go to a foreign country on holiday, get sick, have your kids taken away and strip searched....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/7206570.stm

Wow, I wonder if this will affect very many British families considering a New York Holiday.

Oh well, the economy is great, don't need their tourism anyway....

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2575 times:

Who cares about being strip searched. I'd be pissed about having to spend my holiday in Harlem.

User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3012 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2546 times:
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Something doesn't sound right in this story... who screwed up? Why were they taken to an orphanage? Didn't they have a hotel booked together with their mother? Shouldn't it be up to the mother to decide where the girls need to go? She was still awake, after all - she had pneumonia, she wasn't in a coma.


Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27306 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2511 times:

Nothing surprises me in the USA anymore. The British government should be taking this up with their American counterparts. It seems that by saying its confidential and no comment gets them off the hook from a full investigation. When the children most needed compassion and reassuring America failed them !!!

User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2503 times:

Somebody seriously needs to get fired over this. To lose 2 kids in the Child Welfare system like this, even for a relatively short period, when all the kids needed was a place to stay, is completely unacceptible. Who cares if these Child Welfare people are underpaid schlubs without 2 brain cells to rub together, they need to THINK a bit before applying their gormless one-size-fits-all rules to frightened kids far from home. The UK Government should intervene in this, this is a clear violation of the rights of their citizens.

User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2489 times:

I didn't think they still had orphanages here anymore. Sounds to me like New York City's big bureaucracy is a few decades behind the times.

Most kids caught in that situation would be allowed to stay in the guest rooms of a hospital. Hospital volunteers would be assigned to assure they are fed and safe. Another option would be to have the kids stay with state-certified foster homes, which are like "safe houses."


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4722 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

Do I hear a lawsuit coming? Sounds like a great pro-bono case to me!!


For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2443 times:

At that hour of night they probably were not able to assign a foster home, especially considering it is around the holidays. I disagree with the strip search and stuff but agree with the hospital's decision to get CPS involved. It is not the hospital's responsibility to babysit kids. It is an unfortunate situation.

I'd like to hear the other side of the story.


User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2438 times:



Quoting ManuCH (Reply 2):
Something doesn't sound right in this story



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 7):
I'd like to hear the other side of the story.



User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

Damn furriners! polluting our water and bodily fluids!! Every one of you tricky tourists is a potential illegal immigrant, even your kids! Send 'em all back, I say - who do they think they are?  Smile

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27306 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2387 times:

In a case like this the hospital or police should have called the British Embassy !!! Isnt rocket science!!!

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2358 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
Nothing surprises me in the USA anymore.

 sarcastic 
Whatever . . . .

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 7):
I'd like to hear the other side of the story.

Exactly . . .

WTF was this family on the "trip of a lifetime" doing in frackin' Harlem of all places? Trip of a lifetime? I suggest not.

Something is not right here . . . .

Were they not already checked in to a hotel? The story says the mother wasn't hospitalized until the SECOND night of her visit? Where'd they stay the first night? Surely there was a hotel room for the girls to return to when Mom became ill?

Hmmm, something not gelling here.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 4):
Somebody seriously needs to get fired over this. To lose 2 kids in the Child Welfare system like this, even for a relatively short period, when all the kids needed was a place to stay, is completely unacceptible. Who cares if these Child Welfare people are underpaid schlubs without 2 brain cells to rub together, they need to THINK a bit before applying their gormless one-size-fits-all rules to frightened kids far from home. The UK Government should intervene in this, this is a clear violation of the rights of their citizens.

Horseshit.

If no one had done anything - you and a handful of others here - would be saying the same damn thing . . . had the girls been left to their own devices the  redflag  would be hoisted and you'd be crying just as loudly for someone's head on a platter . . .

 sarcastic 


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2348 times:



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Horseshit.

But they did the WRONG thing - treated them like abuse victims instead of contacting their embassy. If they had to be looked after by welfare authorities, surely the welfare officers should have done some kind of needs assessment before throwing them in an orphanage - a needs assessment starting with "where do they live ?". That way they'd have found out about the hotel, assigned someone to take them back there and either stay with them or make sure the hotel was able to look after them. Simply assuming they'd been taken away from their parents and treating it like abuse or abandonment when clearly it was no such case, was completely inappropriate. These are kids for crying out loud - if the treatment meted out to these particular girls is symptomatic of the general treatment of abused or neglected children in NYC, then clearly the system in its entirety is NOT addressing these childrens' needs and should be re-examined.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2337 times:



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
These are kids for crying out loud

Tell you like I tell Jackie . . . they're 13 and 15 . . . they are NOT kids . . . they're Teenagers . . . and smart enough to do much more than we usually give them credit . . .

Now that said:

I didn't say they got the right treatment . . . . obviously something is amiss . . . on both sides of the story.

However, calling - immediately - for someones head on a platter, until the entire story is made public, is unlike you.

And here I didn't think there was anywhere else on earth with a Child Welfare System as broken as the one in Alaska . . . hmmmm, lucky Alaska . . .


User currently offlineKreze From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2315 times:



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Were they not already checked in to a hotel? The story says the mother wasn't hospitalized until the SECOND night of her visit? Where'd they stay the first night? Surely there was a hotel room for the girls to return to when Mom became ill?

The hotel manager called 911. I am wondering why they didnt return to the hotel room too.


User currently offlineFiatstilojtd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2304 times:



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
and smart enough to do much more than we usually give them credit . . .

If you let them do it and offer them support, but not when you force them do what they were forced to do by an authority they did not know.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2303 times:



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
Tell you like I tell Jackie . . . they're 13 and 15 . . . they are NOT kids . . . they're Teenagers . . . and smart enough to do much more than we usually give them credit . . .

That's true, they could perhaps have asked to go back to their hotel. But it may not be legal for minors to stay in hotels by themselves in NYC - or maybe the welfare authorities weren't prepared to allow them to do that. As you rightly say the whole story hasn't been revealed. But whatever that story turns out to be, these girls were treated in a thoughtless, uncaring manner, and in a manner not appropriate to their circumstances (whatever the welfare authority rules may be).

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
However, calling - immediately - for someones head on a platter, until the entire story is made public, is unlike you.

This is a special case - this is a case of child abuse (and yes that is a strong term, but nonetheless I fear it applies here) - strip searching, refusing permission to the child to visit a clearly and obviously non-abusive parent, counts in my eyes as child abuse by the very authorities put in place to prevent such abuse. If we can't rely on welfare authorities to consider the interests of the child, but allow them instead to apply arbitrary and ill-considered uniform processes regardless of the specifics of the case, we are leaving in place a system on a par with the abuses it is supposed to prevent.

Nothing is more important than protecting the well-being of children. It is a sacred trust (and there are very very few things in this world I consider sacred), and failure in or abuse of such trust is very hard to overlook or forgive.


User currently offlineRonglimeng From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 626 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2275 times:

As so many people above have commented, this story doesn't sound right.

But it must be an everyday occurence in places like NYC or Orlando, for parents or guardians on vacation to get sick or incapacitated and unable to look after their kids.

How are those emergencies normally handled? Most of the time they must be handled fairly smoothly and don't get into the media ...or the courts.


User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2262 times:



Quoting Ronglimeng (Reply 17):
How are those emergencies normally handled? Most of the time they must be handled fairly smoothly and don't get into the media ...or the courts.

You have to remember, CPS takes in kids from all kinds of backgrounds (especially in Harlem). What happened if those girls had drugs on them or a knife and brought them into that orphanage?


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

Mother could have been so sick that she simply said to call the police and let them deal with it.

What would British cops do in a similar situation? Bring them to a foster home or other safehouse? Maybe mom assumed US and British cops would have similar procedures. If mom knew they would get hauled off to an orphanage, maybe she would have said otherwise.


User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2231 times:
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Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 16):
But whatever that story turns out to be, these girls were treated in a thoughtless, uncaring manner, and in a manner not appropriate to their circumstances (whatever the welfare authority rules may be).

How can you come to that conclusion when you don't know what the full story is?

The story doesn't say anything about the Brit Embassy.. Were they contacted? If so what was their response?

What about the mothers circumstances... was she indigent? Did the kids have a place to go? If not why not?

Regarding the "strip search"... why is that considered abuse? Kids are asked to strip every day - gym classes, doctors offices, etc. Properly handled it's not abusive. Why is this case different? An argument could well be made that the "strip search" was necessary to ensure security in the facility...



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User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2222 times:



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 20):
How can you come to that conclusion when you don't know what the full story is?

Because of what happened to these girls. They should not have been put into that institution, simple as that. There was no need to do that. They were treated as abandoned or abused children, which was not the case. They were square-pegged through a uncaring and broken system because somebody couldn't be bothered to think it through. That much at least is obvious. Whatever the reasoning was behind it, the wrong thing happened and these kids suffered for it. There's no valid excuse here.


User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2206 times:
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Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):
which was not the case.

How do you know that?

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):
Whatever the reasoning was behind it, the wrong thing happened and these kids suffered for it.

How is it the wrong thing? How did you come to that conclusion... We don't know all the facts...



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User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2189 times:



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 22):

How do you know that?

Were they abused ? Have they claimed they were abused ? Has ANYONE claimed they were abused ? No. Were they abandoned ? No. Their mother was in hospital. And yet they were treated as abused or abandoned children and placed in an institution.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 22):
How is it the wrong thing? How did you come to that conclusion... We don't know all the facts...

We have sufficient evidence to conclude that the treatment meted out to these children by the welfare services was inappropriate to their circumstances.


User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2153 times:
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Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 23):
Were they abused ? Have they claimed they were abused ? Has ANYONE claimed they were abused ? No. Were they abandoned ? No. Their mother was in hospital.

There is no basis for any of these assumptions... That their mother was in hospital does not mean that the kids were well taken care of.... You're jumping to conclusions based on half (probably less) of the story....

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 23):
We have sufficient evidence

What "evidence"?



Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
25 JGPH1A : You too are jumping to conclusions - that they WERE somehow abused. The BBC story is the mother's own story, she contacted the media herself. If ther
26 ZANL188 : The only conclusion that I'm "Jumping" too is that there is more to the story.... Nowhere is this mentioned in the article. Reply #14 says 911 was ca
27 JGPH1A : Their mother wasn't dead, nor was she in immediate danger of death. That much is obvious from the story. Any arrangement for care would only be for a
28 ZANL188 : Sure there is.... Especially if there is an ongoing investigation - which the Mother herself indicates in the article. The crux of the matter is: Why
29 Moo : Its more than likely because the hospital would not have allowed them to as they would not have been under the care of a parent or guardian during th
30 JGPH1A : From the story, it would seem that the paramedics were called to take care of the mother, and that the kids travelled with their mother to the hospit
31 Moo : In the UK it is against the law to name anyone under the age of 18 without either their express permission, or the explicit permission of a Judge. In
32 JGPH1A : They could at least indicate whether any kind of enquiry has been initiated into the case and the actions of their officers. Why not ? If the mother
33 ZANL188 : The story says NOTHING about the paramedics being called. Zip, Nada, zilch. Reply 14 says 911 was called but not why.....
34 Moo : Why should they? You really think the British Embassy system has the capacity to handle every single one of these types of cases, whenever they occur
35 JAGflyer : If a child is being taken from an abusive house why would they immediately strip search them? You would think abused children has gone through enough
36 AsstChiefMark : That's what's done around here. As last resort, a nurse would typically jump in and let them stay at her own home before allowing them to be sent off
37 JGPH1A : Perhaps to reassure concerned citizens and taxpayers that this type of mishandling of vulnerable children will not be repeated. Or does that kind of
38 ZANL188 : Sounds nice but do you really expect a nurse at NYC hospital to open themselves up to the liability or possible accusations that could follow from do
39 JGPH1A : Which is why it is so important for the welfare services to tell their version. This in turn is why I think their silence is more to do with a screw-
40 AsstChiefMark : You're right about NYC. If it were a smaller community-based hospital, a nurse might do that. That's because many nurses are part of the community's
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